Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management

[Abdo]

Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management

I know the subject has been discussed here many times.
But the fact is that so far no one can explain and which way to go.
Take the example below:
I made 7 targets:

1 - Win - Iprofiler Color management off
2 - Win - LR color management off
3 - Win - Print Studio color management off
4 - Mac - Print Studio Color management off
5 - Mac - Ipfrofiler - Color management off
6 - Mac - Q1 - Color management off
7 - Mac - LR Color management off

Following what I already researched the correct 1

3 and 4 Print Studio Canon totally different even in MAC

2 5 6 7 - Result is the same, but it is only strange the result 2 equal in LR in Windows. Which leads me to think that the system using ICC embedded in the machine driver.

The media have always been the same and the roles and setup identical in all tests.

What do you think...

[Mark D Segal]

Not clear exactly what you've done, but a few thoughts.

(1) What printer are you profiling?
(2) did you use the profiles you made to produce test prints of a well-known printer test target to evaluate overall profile performance in their respective computers?

In general and in principle, (A) Photoshop and Lightroom should not be used for producing printer profiling targets because you cannot fully disable colour management in these applications. (B) You should use scrambled patch layout for the profiling targets to avoid possible reading errors from neighbouring colours that are too close to each other. (C) For Epson printers, the Adobe Color Print Utility remains a very reliable application for printing profiling targets. (D) For the latest generation of Canon Pro printers, using Canon's Print Studio Pro with Color Management set to OFF from within that application should work well. (E) For both Epson and Canon printers, printing the targets from i1Profiler's print utility should be good too.

I can't comment on the specific results you obtained for that one Pantone colour.

[digitaldog]

As Mark stated, there is no, NO color management in some of the applications you've mentioned so just toss them out of the mix.
i1 Profiler and Adobe's Color Print Utility work correctly, ColorSync on the Mac when set correctly should too.
If you're printing targets for the creation of a profile, use one of these applications (probably easiest if you're not doing remote work to print targets out of the X-rite package).

[Doug Gray]

What do you think...

Hard to tell much from the images. It would be interesting if you scan the targets and post the CGATs files. Then the differences could be easily quantified.

In particular I'd be interested in seeing how closely the I1Profiler Mac and Win compared. They should, of course, be as close as two targets printed by the same OS. One assumes the device print engines are identical between the Mac and Win.  But, who knows for sure.

[Abdo]

Thank you all for the comments,

The created targets were from I1Profiler.
The printer for creation is a Canon Pro 4000

I understand that by producing targets on both MAC and Windows, the result should be absolutely the same, and that is not the case.

[Doug Gray]

Thank you all for the comments,

The created targets were from I1Profiler.
The printer for creation is a Canon Pro 4000

I understand that by producing targets on both MAC and Windows, the result should be absolutely the same, and that is not the case.

It is required that they essentially match or else ICC profiles would vary between Macs and Windows. If you could scan the targets made by I1Profiler on the Mac and Win machines and post the files we could compare them to see if they are within normal variation.

[Abdo]

It is required that they essentially match or else ICC profiles would vary between Macs and Windows. If you could scan the targets made by I1Profiler on the Mac and Win machines and post the files we could compare them to see if they are within normal variation.

Thanks,

You can see in this simple example:

The left, target generated on the MAC, as I1 Profiler.

A right, targe generated on Windows with I1 Profiler.

As I am very annoying and I have two systems installed, this is something that always caused me astonishment, I even consulted X-Rite, but nobody wants to know the problem.

Because in my understanding the graphics should be generated absolutely the same ..

[Abdo]

This problem I discovered more than 2 years, and nobody has ever been able to explain.

It is necessary to have both systems, win and mac installed and do the procedure.

Because of this I ended up using Windows because it is a system that is lets you turn off color management.

Being that in MAC this is a great discussion and each one has a recipe of cake ... but nobody presents something consistent. 

I would very much like those who have access to both systems to be able to test the targets on both systems and compare .. surely they will understand what I have been saying ...

[Doug Gray]

This problem I discovered more than 2 years, and nobody has ever been able to explain.

It is necessary to have both systems, win and mac installed and do the procedure.

Because of this I ended up using Windows because it is a system that is lets you turn off color management.

Being that in MAC this is a great discussion and each one has a recipe of cake ... but nobody presents something consistent. 

I would very much like those who have access to both systems to be able to test the targets on both systems and compare .. surely they will understand what I have been saying ...

Well, you have both. And the I1Profiler should produce the same ICC profiles for both. Which is why I asked you to scan the targets with the I1Pro 2 and post the scan text files.

ICC profiles are OS independent and should produce the same thing on any OS (Win, iOS, or Linux) as the drivers operated w/o color management should be the same.

[Mark D Segal]

Because of this I ended up using Windows because it is a system that is lets you turn off color management.

I don't know whether you are gaining anything, because neither Photoshop nor Lightroom allow you to turn THEIR colour management off; are you - anyone else here - sure that turning it off in Windows over-rides whatever is happening in the applications? And how do you turn off ICM (I don't use Windows since 2010, so I don't recall these details)? If you can do it, and if it continues to operate in the applications, I wonder what kind of soup one ends up with. I'm still curious to know about the results of actually printing real photos or printer evaluation targets with these profiles. In the final analysis, why not just confine your profile target making to applications that we know for sure are suitable for this purpose?

[Abdo]

Well, you have both. And the I1Profiler should produce the same ICC profiles for both. Which is why I asked you to scan the targets with the I1Pro 2 and post the scan text files.

ICC profiles are OS independent and should produce the same thing on any OS (Win, iOS, or Linux) as the drivers operated w/o color management should be the same.

Exactly, I understand ...

But that's not what happens, I've done everything.

Even I tested this with Win system and Mac with installation of Zero, not to leave no doubt.

Now the ideal is someone more experienced to do this same test, you will surely encounter the same problem.

X-Rite does not want to hear or discuss it.

I think the problem is still related to how you turn off color management on the MAC.

[Abdo]

I don't know whether you are gaining anything, because neither Photoshop nor Lightroom allow you to turn THEIR colour management off; are you - anyone else here - sure that turning it off in Windows over-rides whatever is happening in the applications? And how do you turn off ICM (I don't use Windows since 2010, so I don't recall these details)? If you can do it, and if it continues to operate in the applications, I wonder what kind of soup one ends up with. I'm still curious to know about the results of actually printing real photos or printer evaluation targets with these profiles. In the final analysis, why not just confine your profile target making to applications that we know for sure are suitable for this purpose?

Mark, I welcome your participation.

But if I'm using the same software, the same printer, the same target.

Should not Win and MAC results be the same?

Because this correct target is going to make the best profile (ICC) for this printer.

Can you understand my question?

[Mark D Segal]

Your end objective is to have profiles that deliver accurate results with whatever printer and operating system you are using. To know whether your profiles are doing thismthis you need to test your profiles with known printer evaluation targets that have known reference values. Have you done any of this? Yes, OSX and Windows should deliver the same colour management results for the same reference file numbers, paper and printer, but whether they do or not you don't know yet because you haven't done a complete testing cycle, based on information you've provided to date. And if they don't, that's academically interesting but you work around it deploying bespoke profiles for the system they are being used with.

[Doug Gray]

But if I'm using the same software, the same printer, the same target.

Should not Win and MAC results be the same?

Because this correct target is going to make the best profile (ICC) for this printer.

Can you understand my question?

Yes, they should. Let's limit this discussion to I1Profiler. There are more complex issues using other apps w/o color management. I1Profiler should print on Macs and Windows targets that are the same and profiles generated from them should closely match.

I will ask again that you scan the two I1Profiler targets made from the different OSes and post the scanned files, CGATs or I1Profile's native format. This will allow us to determine if they are different and in what ways. They should not be significantly different.

[aaronchan]

Sorry to hear that you are having trouble to print the target correctly.
I do see you are running a printing business
so as I
and which means I would put more time on finding business and doing the actual print.

I had found this kind of problems a few years ago and this is why I bout Qimage to eliminate all this "no color management" BS (excuse for my language )

Non of these software could give me a consistent performance and workflow when there is a major update on the OS

Hope this would help you a bit
For your original question, sorry, there nothing I can tell but hopefully the other members could give you a right answer which I would also love to learn too.

Thanks
Aaron

[digitaldog]

I understand that by producing targets on both MAC and Windows, the result should be absolutely the same, and that is not the case.

Not producing, PRINTING. They should produce identical results, in i1Profiler all settings being correct.

[Abdo]

I just generated two graphs, one in Windows other on the MAC

I made 1 chart with Windows and printing on both systems.

Then 1 graphic on Mac and printing on both systems

I printed both using I1profiler.

Attached are the graphics generated for download.

As you can see the problems persist in any way. 

[Doug Gray]

I just generated two graphs, one in Windows other on the MAC

I made 1 chart with Windows and printing on both systems.

Then 1 graphic on Mac and printing on both systems

I printed both using I1profiler.

Attached are the graphics generated for download.

As you can see the problems persist in any way. 

The attached files are target chart files (txf). They have no measurement data (these are mxf). It's the measured, spectro data from scanning the charts that tells the story. You should also print exactly the same chart directly using I1Profiler on the Mac and I1Profiler on Windows and with the same settings in the printer driver. Then scan the prints. It doesn't matter which machine you use to scan the prints. The process and data will be the same.

It's important to print the charts using I1Profiler, not print images created by I1Profiler outside of I1Profiler.

[Abdo]

Friends,

I made a try using 'driver match' in windows, result ... is that you get exactly the same as I have on MAC ...

See the photos ... 3 targets .. the first one on the left is win with 'total shutdown color management'
The central one is 'windows' using corresponding driver.
The one on the right is on the MAC.

  And now . ? What has always been said is the driver in Windows should be turned off ...

So we have a problem, who is correct

[Doug Gray]

Here's the instructions for disabling color management when printing targets. It applies to I1Profiler as well.

http://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1234/37/how-to-disable-color-management-at-the-printer-driver-level-how-can-i-make-sure-that-color-management-is-disabled-completely-in-my-printer-driver-prior-to-printing-the-spyder3print-sr-color-targets-from-within-the-spyder3printsr-application