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Author Topic: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management  (Read 8941 times)

Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 09:31:43 pm »

Here's the instructions for disabling color management when printing targets. It applies to I1Profiler as well.

http://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1234/37/how-to-disable-color-management-at-the-printer-driver-level-how-can-i-make-sure-that-color-management-is-disabled-completely-in-my-printer-driver-prior-to-printing-the-spyder3print-sr-color-targets-from-within-the-spyder3printsr-application


Thanks Doug,


But that does not work, if I follow what they say, it's exactly the problems I've been having.
Choosing NONE in Windows. This was my first way.
The only way that the targets are the same in Windows and MAC is doing as I did in the last post.
Now the question is, would not that be the right one ...

Doug Gray

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2018, 10:06:08 pm »


Thanks Doug,


But that does not work, if I follow what they say, it's exactly the problems I've been having.
Choosing NONE in Windows. This was my first way.
The only way that the targets are the same in Windows and MAC is doing as I did in the last post.
Now the question is, would not that be the right one ...

No, anything other than "none" in Windows is wrong. Can't say about Macs. I don't have one but many here do and can walk you through it. Andrew is very conversant with both Macs and a variety of printers and knows this stuff inside out.

Here's a description of the old iOS 10.5 settings from Andrew's site:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Epson_Driver_Leopard.pdf
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2018, 10:53:28 pm »

More up to date:

For the current set of Canon Pro Printers used with Mac OSX beyond version 10.6.8, turn off colour management by using Print Studio Pro to print the targets and setting Color Controls to OFF, or No Color Controls (i.e. No Color Management).

For Epson printers, use the Adobe Color Print Utility. It disables colour management under the hood - the user selects the Paper size and orientation, Media Type, the bit depth, Output resolution, Speed and level of Detail in the Printer Settings menu.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2018, 05:58:07 am »

Mark, Good morning!

What you're telling me is using Print Studio to print the targets.

I did this test, and differences are greater because it printed one way in MAC and another in Windows.

And it's an issue, so all X-Rite did in their software is wrong?

I wonder if Canon posted some article guiding you to profiling this form that you are indicating is correct. (use Print Studio).

The issue is very confusing and with very little information from both Canon and X-Rite.

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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2018, 08:35:08 am »

Hi Abdo.

It appears that you are not able to get consistent prints of targets between Windows and a Mac, so you may not know which to trust.

It is important how you are printing the targets.  You can no longer use Lightroom or Photoshop to print targets without colour management either on Windows or a Mac.

Adobe produced the 'Adobe Color Printer Utility' to get round this problem which can be downloaded from here: Adobe Color Print Utility .  There are windows and Mac versions.

On the Mac you can also use the 'Preview' application (bundled with the OS) to print without colour management; you will need to search the internet for instructions on how to do this.

Mark Segal's testing on Canon Pro 2000 printers showed that more accurate target prints can be obtained using Canon's utility 'Canon Print Studio Pro'.  You can read about this here:Canon Pro-2000 Review and Related Items of Interest .

Any of the above methods of printing targets will allow you to create some very acceptable profiles for printing.  The differences that may be produced by the slightly different targets are probably not worth worrying about provided you are getting some lovely prints at the end of it.  The application of colour management is not a precise science however much we hope it will be.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2018, 09:05:32 am »

Mark, Good morning!

What you're telling me is using Print Studio to print the targets.

I did this test, and differences are greater because it printed one way in MAC and another in Windows.

And it's an issue, so all X-Rite did in their software is wrong?

I wonder if Canon posted some article guiding you to profiling this form that you are indicating is correct. (use Print Studio).

The issue is very confusing and with very little information from both Canon and X-Rite.

Att

Hi Abdo,

You're right about at least one thing - there is very little information about colour management procedures and underlying issues with them from both Canon and X-Rite. But I would also extend this observation to Apple Computer, Microsoft and Adobe. There isn't a wealth of information forthcoming from those vendors either that would allow someone on the outside to understand what differences, if any, there are between Colorsync and ICM in the area of colour management. This means that we users need to do our own homework, as you are doing, in order to discover what combination of software best achieves the objectives we have set for ourselves. I know colour management is supposed to deliver cross-platform consistency of final outputs assuming the use of good profiles, but I'm not convinced you know yet whether that happens to the final results of the profiling. More on this further below. 

My recommendations are based on finding out what I have determined works best, sometimes by having to solve issues I too have encountered with profiling printers in the course of doing the research underlying my reviews of these products. In the case of Canon where I did initially encounter a profiling accuracy problem, I had the advantage of discussing it with knowledgeable Canon staff members because I was preparing reviews of their products and to do that they understood I needed some guidance for the reviews to be useful to our readers.  As you may have observed, my reviews are very much results-oriented so they depend on how well I can make the equipment and software perform in order to provide a fair perspective on their capabilities. In this context, there are also limits to the information they can provide to me, however they have been helpful enough over the telephone (no documents) to come to some useful conclusions that do give largely correct results. So, the advice I provided to use Print Studio Pro for printing profiling targets from OSX on Canon Pro printers is advice I received from Canon, I tested it using OSX and it worked fine, so I recommend it. I stopped using Windows computers in 2010, so I can't comment on what works with Windows. But once we know what works best on each system, just use that and don't bother too much about differences between them - unless this presents critical and insurmountable operational problems for you that I don't understand.

I don't believe the issue you are raising has anything to do with X-Rite software based on my understanding that so far all you have done with X-Rite software is to produce the profiling targets. Unless I missed something, it appears to me that you are basing your observations on appearance differences between the targets produced from alternative printing applications on OSX and Windows. I don't think this is a good enough basis for defining problems or coming to conclusions. I think you need to make the profiles from each of those targets, install those profiles respectively in the computers from which the targets were printed, make test prints using known printer evaluation targets that have colours which can be measured with a spectrophotometer and see whether the final results still differ.
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2018, 02:20:27 pm »

Hello Mark and Simon.

Thank you very much for the comments.

I would like information:

Attached to the Windows screen where we should select the color management:

If you select option 1 (managed by the printer), the targets generated by I1profiler are exactly the same when printed and compared to MAC.

If you select option 4 (management off) in this case the graphics when printed in Windows are different from the MAC.

Well the question is that all literature that is, speaks that must do option in Windows by 4 (management off).

It is at this point that my doubt resides, or MAC is correct and I must follow it, and when using Windows do option 1.

Either Windows is correct and the MAC in this case has problem in all forms printing.

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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2018, 03:54:09 pm »

Hi Abdo.

I can't really comment on the screenshot you have posted as it is unfamiliar to me.  Does it belong to the X-Rite software ?  If you are trying to print targets using the X-Rite software I suggest that you stop and start using one of the alternatives suggested by Mark and I although I would defer to Mark's recommendations as he is familiar with the i1profiler software whereas I am not.
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2018, 04:12:07 pm »

Hi Abdo.

I can't really comment on the screenshot you have posted as it is unfamiliar to me.  Does it belong to the X-Rite software ?  If you are trying to print targets using the X-Rite software I suggest that you stop and start using one of the alternatives suggested by Mark and I although I would defer to Mark's recommendations as he is familiar with the i1profiler software whereas I am not.

Hello Simon,

This is the print driver screen in Windows.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2018, 04:26:05 pm »

Hello Mark and Simon.

..................

Either Windows is correct and the MAC in this case has problem in all forms printing.

Att

There is no generic problem printing profiling targets from OSX using a very wide range of normal inkjet papers, or in making excellent prints from OSX using the profiles created from those profiling targets. I've been doing this very often and have complete confidence in saying this.

I'll repeat for the last time: use the method for each operating system that works best with that system, and judge the results by printing printer evaluation targets having known colours using the profiles bespoke to the system in which they were created - only then can you be sure of what colour management approach works best for you. If you come back here with those kind of results, I'll be interesting in seeing them; until then - nothing more I can contribute on this topic.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2018, 04:38:05 pm »

There is no generic problem printing profiling targets from OSX using a very wide range of normal inkjet papers, or in making excellent prints from OSX using the profiles created from those profiling targets. I've been doing this very often and have complete confidence in saying this.

I'll repeat for the last time: use the method for each operating system that works best with that system, and judge the results by printing printer evaluation targets having known colours using the profiles bespoke to the system in which they were created - only then can you be sure of what colour management approach works best for you. If you come back here with those kind of results, I'll be interesting in seeing them; until then - nothing more I can contribute on this topic.

Mark,

Thank you for your participation and helped me clarify some issues.

I've always found this question to be just a simple solution technique.

But apparently it is what you are suggesting, I have to test and arrive at the result that pleases me and I feel comfortable with the impressions.

Thanks again.

Doug Gray

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2018, 07:03:36 pm »

There is no generic problem printing profiling targets from OSX using a very wide range of normal inkjet papers, or in making excellent prints from OSX using the profiles created from those profiling targets. I've been doing this very often and have complete confidence in saying this.

I'll repeat for the last time: use the method for each operating system that works best with that system, and judge the results by printing printer evaluation targets having known colours using the profiles bespoke to the system in which they were created - only then can you be sure of what colour management approach works best for you. If you come back here with those kind of results, I'll be interesting in seeing them; until then - nothing more I can contribute on this topic.

Well, option 4 (Color management Off in English) is the correct setting for printing profile targets in Windows. Why that should produce very different targets than the Mac process makes no sense to me. You can certainly make working profiles selecting option 1 if you set the printer driver to option 1 when printing letting Photoshop manage color but it will result in a smaller gamut volume. Option 4 is designed to print the largest possible gamut volume but it doesn't correspond to standard RGB spaces.

Properly set up, the exact same profile should work in Windows and Macs. Every paper/printer combination where Canson has a downloadable profile, including the Canon 4000,  it is used for both Macs and Windows.

This isn't adding up. If the same printed target for Macs visually differs from the Windows one printed with option 4 selected then one must conclude the settings between the Mac and Win differ and the same profile could not be used on both systems. Canson doesn't appear to have that problem..
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2018, 03:04:25 am »

After 18 years of wide format inkjet printer use one wonders why the printer manufacturers themselves did not include a utility to print a target using a bypass that is not interfered by the CM of whatever application or OS.  It is available for the HP Z models as part of the integrated bundle of the spectrometer hardware + software but could in fact be just a standalone app for a target print path.

One reason it never happened might be that it used to be easier to print targets correctly in the past, before OS designers decided that everything should be idiot proof (even for the pros) and application designers followed that trail.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2018, 08:52:03 am »

After 18 years of wide format inkjet printer use one wonders why the printer manufacturers themselves did not include a utility to print a target using a bypass that is not interfered by the CM of whatever application or OS. ..............

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Well, in the case of Canon - they did so with the inclusion of Print Studio Pro that has a checkbox to turn off colour management, and it works well for printing profiling targets in Canon Pro printers. In the case of Epson, there is currently no need because ACPU or i1Profiler do this and they too work well.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2018, 09:22:40 am »

Well, option 4 (Color management Off in English) is the correct setting for printing profile targets in Windows. Why that should produce very different targets than the Mac process makes no sense to me. You can certainly make working profiles selecting option 1 if you set the printer driver to option 1 when printing letting Photoshop manage color but it will result in a smaller gamut volume. Option 4 is designed to print the largest possible gamut volume but it doesn't correspond to standard RGB spaces.

Properly set up, the exact same profile should work in Windows and Macs. Every paper/printer combination where Canson has a downloadable profile, including the Canon 4000,  it is used for both Macs and Windows.

This isn't adding up. If the same printed target for Macs visually differs from the Windows one printed with option 4 selected then one must conclude the settings between the Mac and Win differ and the same profile could not be used on both systems. Canson doesn't appear to have that problem..

I agree with you that it isn't adding up. The question is why. And I agree with you that if Canson doesn't have Abdo's problem, it would be good to know why. Someone should ask whoever does this for Canson how they make their profiles. I don't know who that would be otherwise I would do so myself.

I think the nub of this problem of differing results stems from two places:

(1) Windows - if I understand correctly - does still allow the user to disable ICM so that the OS does not tinker with file values on their way through the computer to the printer, but Apple eliminated the option to turn Colorsync off in OSX, as Ernst rightly pointed out. This means that printing correct targets on a Mac requires a workaround not needed with ICM. It led to the development of ACPU after the uproar that happened when Adobe turned off the ability to disable color management in the Photoshop print function as a result of Apple's action.

(2) Canon appears to have designed their drivers for the Pro series printers in a manner that interferes with the proper functioning of ACPU on those printers, but Epson has not.

Both of these situations give rise to the observation I derived from advice and experience that it is best to use ACPU for Epson printers and Print Studio Pro for producing targets from Canon Pro printers. These two paths for those two printer brands have served me well in the many profiles I have generated for the printer and paper reviews I produced for this website and for my personal photography.

Possibly underlying the issue Abdo raised is the point Doug raised that there may be some differences of settings that is affecting whether colour management is actually being turned off to the same effect in both operating systems with whatever he is doing to produce the targets using each. Let us recall that a profile is characterizing how the printer renders file values, so if there is REALLY no colour management happening in both operating systems, the same printer printing the same target on the same paper should produce targets that look the same. If they don't, "No Color Management" doesn't mean the same thing between the two OS types, and the reason for that could be a user-controllable setting, or something deeper under the hood we haven't gotten to the bottom of. I realize this post isn't settling the question, but I hope it contributes to further thought on the etiology of the issue and where to look for conclusive answers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2018, 11:42:21 am »

Thanks Mark !

Putting a bit of trouble found on MAC.

When printing a target on the Mac, made with i1profiler and Print Studio Pro, there are also differences between them.

I would not recommend the generic profile used by Canson or HFA, they are weak and inconsistent, and with a low patch number.

Apparently it's like Mark says, it's hard to close this question ..... 8)

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2018, 11:58:30 am »

Thanks Mark !

Putting a bit of trouble found on MAC.

When printing a target on the Mac, made with i1profiler and Print Studio Pro, there are also differences between them.

I would not recommend the generic profile used by Canson or HFA, they are weak and inconsistent, and with a low patch number.

Apparently it's like Mark says, it's hard to close this question ..... 8)

I can't replicate your results because I no longer have a Canon printer at home and it would be a large inconvenience for me to access one. Though it may be interesting.

I am not surprised, however, that there could be differences between the targets printed from i1Profiler and Print Studio Pro - I too have noticed in the past when I was doing this work that the profiles made from targets printed with these two applications don't perform identically. For the Canon printers, the profiles made from targets printed with Print Studio Pro delivered more accurate results from my test suite.

As for the canned profiles from Canson and HFA (what is this - Hahnemuhle?) I'm curious to understand two things: (1) how do you know they used a low patch count (also what do you consider as "low")? (2) What do you mean exactly by a profile being "weak" and "inconsistent"?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2018, 12:08:07 pm »

I agree with you that it isn't adding up. The question is why. And I agree with you that if Canson doesn't have Abdo's problem, it would be good to know why. Someone should ask whoever does this for Canson how they make their profiles. I don't know who that would be otherwise I would do so myself.

I think the nub of this problem of differing results stems from two places:

(1) Windows - if I understand correctly - does still allow the user to disable ICM so that the OS does not tinker with file values on their way through the computer to the printer, but Apple eliminated the option to turn Colorsync off in OSX, as Ernst rightly pointed out. This means that printing correct targets on a Mac requires a workaround not needed with ICM. It led to the development of ACPU after the uproar that happened when Adobe turned off the ability to disable color management in the Photoshop print function as a result of Apple's action.

(2) Canon appears to have designed their drivers for the Pro series printers in a manner that interferes with the proper functioning of ACPU on those printers, but Epson has not.

Both of these situations give rise to the observation I derived from advice and experience that it is best to use ACPU for Epson printers and Print Studio Pro for producing targets from Canon Pro printers. These two paths for those two printer brands have served me well in the many profiles I have generated for the printer and paper reviews I produced for this website and for my personal photography.

Possibly underlying the issue Abdo raised is the point Doug raised that there may be some differences of settings that is affecting whether colour management is actually being turned off to the same effect in both operating systems with whatever he is doing to produce the targets using each. Let us recall that a profile is characterizing how the printer renders file values, so if there is REALLY no colour management happening in both operating systems, the same printer printing the same target on the same paper should produce targets that look the same. If they don't, "No Color Management" doesn't mean the same thing between the two OS types, and the reason for that could be a user-controllable setting, or something deeper under the hood we haven't gotten to the bottom of. I realize this post isn't settling the question, but I hope it contributes to further thought on the etiology of the issue and where to look for conclusive answers.

Mark, I think you summarize the conundrum quite well.

For Canson's profiles, which are identical for Windows and Mac, to work the process to create them, as well as use them, simply has to result in the same down to the driver level. Yet, your testing shows some differences on the Mac with ACPU v Canon's plugin. I don't have a Mac and you don't have a Windows but each of us have the tools and background to clarify this. Abdo has both, but is new to this. I can appreciate his confusion.

From my pov, this is quite amazing. I have never encountered an issue with Windows producing any differences with ACPU, I1Profiler's direct printing, or the null-transform Photoshop trick. They all produce the same results properly done. However, each approach has its issues.

ACPU, for unknown reasons, shortens the targets on Windows about 3%. In my testing this creates targets that are just acceptable to ISIS. While it works, if the targets are only 1% smaller than ACPU prints, ISIS fails to read them. I'm uncomfortable operating on the edge.

The Photoshop null-transform trick, which has always worked on my printers with all the various flavors of Photoshop and Windows, has been deprecated by Adobe to the point they raise a stiff warning when doing it. Most likely to keep a common code base with the Mac and deal with the fact it hasn't worked in some time on the Mac side. However, for me it's indispensable when printing targets on large roll paper where positioning multiple target pages across a wide roll and having them printed and sized correctly, just makes that process much simpler.

I1Profiler prints targets directly that are sized correctly though it's limited to 8 bits and is somewhat difficult to use on wide roll paper without wasting paper. Also, when printing targets with fractional values scaled to 0-255, it truncates the fractional values. Yet, when creating profiles it uses those fractional values. This is only a problem when generating and using targets that contain fractional values. Unfortunately, I1Profiler produces profiles using fractional values, but saves the truncated ones inside the generated profile. The workaround is to save the generated targets which also truncates, then reload prior to printing the targets. Then the target prints and profiles are created from the same data. This is fine for profiling smaller sheets but wastes paper on large rolls.

As for the other printer settings such as resolution, paper thickness, type, vacuum, and whatnot, I simply optimize inking (another process that can sometimes be useful but separate from profiling) then save and name the configuration. Then, when printing either targets or using Photoshop to manage color, I load the appropriate named configuration. This approach works great on everything I have with both my Epson 9800 and Canon 9500 Mark II.
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Abdo

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2018, 02:13:22 pm »

As for the canned profiles from Canson and HFA (what is this - Hahnemuhle?) I'm curious to understand two things: (1) how do you know they used a low patch count (also what do you consider as "low")? (2) What do you mean exactly by a profile being "weak" and "inconsistent"?

Yes HFA - Hahnemuhle.

Mark, I do not remember now but the 1 year issue, when I bought ISIS, I started doing my profiles with it. Somewhere there was information from Canson talking about 1728 patches for his profile.

Particularly I never liked the canned profiles, the tests I produced with both Ipf 6400 8400 and now with two Pro 4000 .. I always ended up using mine that I did with 6000 patches.

I'm going to have to follow your advice, what my eyes can see better.

I have four options: (it sure will not be 2)

1. Windows with 6000 patches using Iprofiler - which is the current use and taste.
2. Canned ICC - which I will not use
3. Mac 6000 Patchs Using Print Studio Pro and Test and Compare
4. Mac 6000 patchs using Iprofiler and test and compare ...

Mark D Segal

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Re: Problems between MAC & Win - Color Management
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2018, 03:18:17 pm »

Hi Abdo, 1728 patches is actually OK. One can make good profiles with even less. Ethan Hansen published a very interesting post some time back dealing with appropriate patch numbers - more is not necessarily better - and identified the various patch configurations he has tested that make very good profiles. Worthwhile having a look at that. With an iSis it doesn't matter much because it's so automated, but anyhow, just saying the patch numbers probably does not explain issues you had with the canned profiles. That said, with good equipment and if you are doing it correctly a custom profile should anyhow be preferable. The comparison between routes 1, 3 and 4 should be interesting.
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