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Author Topic: Qimage for Mac-Canon Pixma Pro9000 Mk II Printer Settings and Color Management.  (Read 9536 times)

Denis de Gannes

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I am trying to set up my Settings and Color management. I have have set up the Media and set the color management to be carried out by the Qimage software. In the pinter properties I have selected Color Matching and Quality & Media as shown in the attached files. Up till now I only have experience in printing from Windows with little knowledge of printing from my iMac. See the attached screen captures.
Any one has experience with printing to the captioned printer?

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digitaldog

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Can't comment on Qimage yet but the ColorSync dialog you have (3rd) doesn't look right set to sRGB unless Qimage has some odd way of accepting data that way.


Some software products are using a private (undocumented) SPI called kPMApplicationColorMatching which you see in Photoshop and Lightroom and the Adobe Color Print Utility. When you set Application Manages Color, the area of the driver that controls Colorsync will alter the radio buttons such they are grayed out. X-Rite’s i1Profiler has also implemented this SPI. Be nice if Qimage did too, then it would appear this way:

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Denis de Gannes

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Can't comment on Qimage yet but the ColorSync dialog you have (3rd) doesn't look right set to sRGB unless Qimage has some odd way of accepting data that way.


Some software products are using a private (undocumented) SPI called kPMApplicationColorMatching which you see in Photoshop and Lightroom and the Adobe Color Print Utility. When you set Application Manages Color, the area of the driver that controls Colorsync will alter the radio buttons such they are grayed out. X-Rite’s i1Profiler has also implemented this SPI. Be nice if Qimage did too, then it would appear this way:

If you look at the image I posted  "Verify Printer Settings" the last paragraph refers to this setting.
also the following from the Qimage One help files has me a bit confused.

Quote "Important Note: Qimage One will make the necessary changes to the printer driver settings to support your ICC Color Profile selection. It is important that you do not make changes in the printer driver Color Matching section afterwards as this could result in double-profiling and incorrect color output. Qimage One tags the image data as sRGB after it has performed any needed color profile conversion and instructs the printer to print sRGB. You should not be concerned about seeing sRGB as the selected color profile in the printer setup dialog. This is simply the way that software color management is achieved on macOS. Some printing applications gray out and disable the Color Matching controls, but Qimage One does not."
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digitaldog

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Unnecessarily confusing, but good to know.
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MHMG

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Can't comment on Qimage yet but the ColorSync dialog you have (3rd) doesn't look right set to sRGB unless Qimage has some odd way of accepting data that way.


Some software products are using a private (undocumented) SPI called kPMApplicationColorMatching which you see in Photoshop and Lightroom and the Adobe Color Print Utility. When you set Application Manages Color, the area of the driver that controls Colorsync will alter the radio buttons such they are grayed out. X-Rite’s i1Profiler has also implemented this SPI. Be nice if Qimage did too, then it would appear this way:

So, here's how I think Q1 does it. If you select the Q1 option for "Color management off" it assigns sRGB to the source image, then forces color matching/colorsync to sRGB in the "default printer driver setting" thus creating a null transform to keep RGB values untouched. Likewise, if you use a "Q1 manages color" approach by selecting a specified ICC profile for your printer/ink/media destination, then Q1 converts the source file data to the destination file data with your chosen ICC profile and rendering intent, then further assigns sRGB to the converted file data, and simultaneously forces color matching/colorsync in the default printer driver setting to sRGB, thus creating another null transform and essentially achieving application managed color. That's clearly a different approach than application managed apps which handle the Mac ColorSync pipeline with the private (undocumented) SPI called kPMApplicationColorMatching. The Q1 approach does work, but to anyone who's been using Photoshop or Lightroom, etc. for application managed color where the color matching dialog box gets greyed out it does seem "wrong". It's not, but it's another weird flavor of application managed color and also "Color management off", so what else is new? Nearly a quarter of a century of color management work arounds. This is just a new wrinkle.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:23:45 pm by MHMG »
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digitaldog

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The Q1 approach does work, but to anyone who's been using Photoshop or Lightroom, etc. for application managed color where the color matching dialog box gets greyed out it does seem "wrong". It's not, but it's another weird flavor of application managed color and also "Color management off", so what else is new? Nearly a quarter of a century of color management work arounds. This is just a new wrinkle.
Thanks Mark. And yes, it does appear wrong and appears the author needs to study the Mac a bit more. For example, a 'competing' printing product (QTR Print) does this as expected without the kPMApplicationColorMatching API which is even better for any end user!
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MHMG

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Thanks Mark. And yes, it does appear wrong and appears the author needs to study the Mac a bit more. For example, a 'competing' printing product (QTR Print) does this as expected without the kPMApplicationColorMatching API which is even better for any end user!

Yup, Q1 version 1.0 teething pains I hope!
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digitaldog

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Yup, Q1 version 1.0 teething pains I hope!
The author also needs some assistance from a few better experienced Mac beta testers I believe.  ;D
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MHMG

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The author also needs some assistance from a few better experienced Mac beta testers I believe.  ;D

I gather you weren't a beta tester :). Neither was I. I bought it, I'm trying to use it. It's got promise, but it still seems like it should be in beta! Too few features yet to make it really stand out from other printer pipelines. Too slow to browse folders, no search, drag and drop only when you drag a file to the dock icon (not any of the open windows in the app), and I seem to crash it quite frequently when I try to use it. I may be the poster child for application bug finding on the Mac!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:34:34 pm by MHMG »
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Binartem

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Hello All,

I'm happy to have joined the community here as it looks like a good place to share and hopefully while I'm here, I can provide some assistance for those using Qimage One as well.  As my first post, let me try to shed some light on a few things mentioned in this thread.

First, on the occasional crashes, we did find some instances where certain types of printer profiles could cause a crash under some specific conditions.  Those crashes were confirmed fixed by today's macOS release (2018.105).  Those types of issues (ones that require a specific set of conditions to reproduce) simply cannot be flushed out in beta testing but thanks to feedback from various users, we were able to correct the problem in about 48 hours.  We are not aware of any conditions that cause a crash in 2018.105 so if you still have any issues after updating to that version, please let us know.  As of now, all users who have reported crashes confirm that 2018.105 has fixed the crashes.

Regarding color management, we probably included too much technical detail on our webpage regarding settings and made it sound more complicated than it is.  As a user, all you need to know is: don't change the color matching options.  That's it!  Qimage One already sets the color matching options in the driver to those needed for the selection in the software (either let the driver handle color, or selecting a specific profile).  Using sRGB for a "null transform" is the accepted method for disabling color management on Mac printer drivers; the difference being that other software may gray those options out so you can't change (or potentially even see) them.

Qimage One has a "deeper" connection with the printer driver than many other driver-based printing apps in that you can change things like media type, media size, source, and other options without having to go into the driver.  Similarly, it is able to make the appropriate selections to turn color management off if it sees you are using a user-specific ICC profile.  Simply put: make whatever settings such as quality, etc. in the driver but just leave the color matching options at the bottom of the driver alone: Qimage One sets those for you.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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Mike Chaney
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Hello All,

I'm happy to have joined the community here as it looks like a good place to share and hopefully while I'm here, I can provide some assistance for those using Qimage One as well.  As my first post, let me try to shed some light on a few things mentioned in this thread.

First, on the occasional crashes, we did find some instances where certain types of printer profiles could cause a crash under some specific conditions.  Those crashes were confirmed fixed by today's macOS release (2018.105).  Those types of issues (ones that require a specific set of conditions to reproduce) simply cannot be flushed out in beta testing but thanks to feedback from various users, we were able to correct the problem in about 48 hours.  We are not aware of any conditions that cause a crash in 2018.105 so if you still have any issues after updating to that version, please let us know.  As of now, all users who have reported crashes confirm that 2018.105 has fixed the crashes.

Excellent, for those who have been affected. We (or at least, I) do, appreciate developers who are directly addressing issues in this forum (although some responders may seem a bit less appreciative ;), frankly, their problem).

Quote
Regarding color management, we probably included too much technical detail on our webpage regarding settings and made it sound more complicated than it is.  As a user, all you need to know is: don't change the color matching options.  That's it!

As a Qimage Ultimate (for Windows) user I could understand a culture shock for some users. But then, Windows OS users grew along with the philosophy. New users will need to catch up ... Direct communication usually leads to a better exchange of ideas.

Quote
Qimage One has a "deeper" connection with the printer driver than many other driver-based printing apps in that you can change things like media type, media size, source, and other options without having to go into the driver.  Similarly, it is able to make the appropriate selections to turn color management off if it sees you are using a user-specific ICC profile.  Simply put: make whatever settings such as quality, etc. in the driver but just leave the color matching options at the bottom of the driver alone: Qimage One sets those for you.

Cheers,
Bart
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MHMG

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Hello All,


..Qimage One has a "deeper" connection with the printer driver than many other driver-based printing apps in that you can change things like media type, media size, source, and other options without having to go into the driver...

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.

Yes, and I applaud the concept, I truly do, but until Q1 enables control of all printer driver unique features in addition to the obvious media settings and page size setting (e.g., gloss optimizer options, uni-directional printing, advanced user settings like ink density, etc.) one still has to dive into the printer driver menu to check those values, all the while making sure not to tamper with settings Q1 has already set or move away from the "default" preset. At this point in time, this situation is likely to be just as difficult if not more so for longtime Mac-only users compared to what they do already, namely to choose all the necessary printer driver settings in one go, and save a preset in the driver window named appropriately for those specific menu choices. Q1 disallows those custom presets, forcing one to use only the "default" setting which means one cannot quickly change advanced printer driver options like, for example, gloss optimizer "full coverage" versus gloss optimizer "economy mode" and/or high speed "on" versus high speed "off" etc., etc.  One possible solution is for Q1 to allow the user to choose one of these custom presets at the Q1 GUI, but then modify them just like Q1 does the default driver setting.

And while I'm here in this thread trying my best to offer both praise and constructive criticism, also note that I did perform one update already, but it sounds like there's already another. That's impressive, but honestly, the update procedure is also incredibly un Mac-like. It's a process that only a PC user could love (folks, please don't flame me, I run both PC's and Mac's, and I see virtues in both platforms).

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:36:10 pm by MHMG »
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digitaldog

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Using sRGB for a "null transform" is the accepted method for disabling color management on Mac printer drivers; the difference being that other software may gray those options out so you can't change (or potentially even see) them.
Can you provide one example, other than your product, on the Mac, that shows the GUI with sRGB as you've coded?
No argument the setting can't or doesn't work. That's besides the point. You're now working on the Mac OS for Mac users and there are protocols, long standing, that exist. There is one widespread GUI which I've shown from Roy's product. There's a better mousetrap that is also 'allowed' even if not well documented and a very few companies use it as I would suggest you consider that as well.
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Binartem

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Yes, and I applaud the concept, I truly do, but until Q1 enables control of all printer driver unique features in addition to the obvious media settings and page size setting (e.g., gloss optimizer options, uni-directional printing, advanced user settings like ink density, etc.) one still has to dive into the printer driver menu to check those values, all the while making sure not to tamper with settings Q1 has already set or move away from the "default" preset. At this point in time, this situation is likely to be just as difficult if not more so for longtime Mac-only users compared to what they do already, namely to choose all the necessary printer driver settings in one go, and save a preset in the driver window named appropriately for those specific menu choices. Q1 disallows those custom presets, forcing one to use only the "default" setting which means one cannot quickly change advanced printer driver options like, for example, gloss optimizer "full coverage" versus gloss optimizer "economy mode" and/or high speed "on" versus high speed "off" etc., etc.

Not at all.  You only have to set the driver preferences once per printer and media type.  The next time you select that media type for that printer, all the driver settings and program settings come back from the last time you used that printer and media!  In addition, if you use the same media type for multiple papers (say from different manufacturers or even the same paper at different sheet sizes), you can save setups by name and recall them.  One click on the load button and selecting your saved "Red River Arctic Polar Satin" will bring up all the printer settings (including driver settings) for that paper and you are ready to start adding prints.

Can you provide one example, other than your product, on the Mac, that shows the GUI with sRGB as you've coded?
No argument the setting can't or doesn't work. That's besides the point. You're now working on the Mac OS for Mac users and there are protocols, long standing, that exist. There is one widespread GUI which I've shown from Roy's product. There's a better mousetrap that is also 'allowed' even if not well documented and a very few companies use it as I would suggest you consider that as well.

In your screen shot, you can't tell what is selected for Profile because the selection has been made invisible.  If they are following the Apple documented procedure for printing with color management off, they are using sRGB as well and you just can't see it.  As I said, we haven't grayed out or made those selections invisible but it's something we may do in a future release only to prevent users from changing those settings.  In the mean time, grayed out or not, invisible or not, the procedure is correct and the only way you can get incorrect results is if you change the settings manually.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.

Binartem

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And that presumes you only want to use that specific printer and media combination with only one set of printer driver-specific settings. This simply isn't a valid assumption. Sometimes, for example, I want to print in a quick draft or high speed mode, whereas at other times I insist on highest quality settings. Sometimes I want to avoid use of gloss optimizer, sometimes I want full coverage. I typically handle these basic alternatives with two or more custom presets for that printer/media combination so that I don't have to keep diving deeper into all of the printer driver submenus. That's indeed the beauty of custom presets, ie, the ability to choose alternative print quality/media/advanced settings without always having to dive deeper into the printer driver weeds to set what you want. Q1 disallows that convenience by insisting only the default driver setting is allowed.The default driver setting can be set up with only one custom settings choice, not two or more! If only given the option to use the "default" setting, you have to continuously go in manually and alter all those custom settings you want to change for a specific print job in the "default" setting that Q1 currently doesn't manage.

Am I missing something here about how Q1 currently addresses the more sophisticated printer driver settings?

kind regards,
Mark

That's the beauty of how it works.  If you want one setting for draft quality and one for high quality, save two setups and just name them accordingly such as Epson Luster (Draft) and Epson Luster (HQ).  You might save setups such as:

- Epson 3880 Luster (Draft)
- Epson 3880 Luster (HQ)
- Canon Pro-2000 Semi-Gloss (Roll 1)
- Canon Pro-2000 Luster (Roll 2)
Etc.

When you pick Epson 3880 Luster (Draft), it loads all the driver settings that you used for draft mode including chroma optimizer, paper size and type, quality settings, etc. and loads the ICC profile, sharpening and other settings for the software.  There is no limit to the settings you can save and the driver settings within.  And you load your settings the same way for all printer models: no navigating through potentially different menus for custom settings in the driver: they are simply not needed since your saved setups will load literally every app and driver setting you chose.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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MHMG

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That's the beauty of how it works.  If you want one setting for draft quality and one for high quality, save two setups and just name them accordingly such as Epson Luster (Draft) and Epson Luster (HQ).  You might save setups such as:

- Epson 3880 Luster (Draft)
- Epson 3880 Luster (HQ)
- Canon Pro-2000 Semi-Gloss (Roll 1)
- Canon Pro-2000 Luster (Roll 2)
Etc.

When you pick Epson 3880 Luster (Draft), it loads all the driver settings that you used for draft mode including chroma optimizer, paper size and type, quality settings, etc. and loads the ICC profile, sharpening and other settings for the software.  There is no limit to the settings you can save and the driver settings within.  And you load your settings the same way for all printer models: no navigating through potentially different menus for custom settings in the driver: they are simply not needed since your saved setups will load literally every app and driver setting you chose.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.

OK Mike, I just removed my original message you quoted (and don't know how to "restore" it to the thread), probably just a moment before you replied, because it occurred to me you might indeed have already included this feature, essentially re-established another way to accomplish a custom preset, and I have so far overlooked how Q1 does it. Forgive me. I will go back and re-learn how to create a custom preset for the printer driver in Q1. It's a learning curve nonetheless, but one I'm game to try because I do see a lot of potential merit in Q1. :)  That said, I'm not yet truly seeing this new Q1 interface for Mac users as easier, just different, except when printing multiple images to a single printed page from photoshop where Q1 definitely aggregates the multiple open files to be printed in a nicer way than printing one at a time in Photoshop.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:07:51 am by MHMG »
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Abdo

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For example, a 'competing' printing product (QTR Print) does this as expected without the kPMApplicationColorMatching API which is even better for any end user!

That's a fact, QTR is a very simple software, which for years has no update but works perfectly. Besides being very light, easy to set up. It has an advantage, who needs to write directly on the printout works very well. Worth the Price.

Binartem

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That's a fact, QTR is a very simple software, which for years has no update but works perfectly. Besides being very light, easy to set up. It has an advantage, who needs to write directly on the printout works very well. Worth the Price.

Certainly a valid tool to have in your printing toolbox.  Each tool will have a different focus and different way of going about things.  I'm not really here to compare and contrast; that's up to the end user.  I'll try to just assist those who are using Qimage One to address the why's and how's, feature requests, etc.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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Mike Chaney
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Abdo

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Certainly a valid tool to have in your printing toolbox.  Each tool will have a different focus and different way of going about things.  I'm not really here to compare and contrast; that's up to the end user.  I'll try to just assist those who are using Qimage One to address the why's and how's, feature requests, etc.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.

Mike,

I believe in your work, so much that I bought the software on the first day. I'm following up and I know what software will grow.
We just have to have patience for new features to be placed for MAC users.
Thank you for your comment and also for coming here to participate in the discussion, we can only help improve Q1.

Sds

digitaldog

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In your screen shot, you can't tell what is selected for Profile because the selection has been made invisible.  If they are following the Apple documented procedure for printing with color management off, they are using sRGB as well and you just can't see it.  As I said, we haven't grayed out or made those selections invisible but it's something we may do in a future release only to prevent users from changing those settings. 
Let me try again as maybe I wasn't clear. There are AFAIK two possible GUI's that follow Apple guidelines. One is an API, rarely used but used none the less which makes this entire area of the driver moot: it sets everything correctly (sRGB or otherwise) and grays out the radio button. While few companies have gone this route, none the less they can and have. Even smaller companies like X-rite. This is the path I suggest you examine now that you know about it!  ;) 

The 2nd path is found everywhere else as far as I know (hence my question to you which I'll ask again for clarity below). We see it in Roy's Print QTR, we see it in the OP's screen capture. We see it elsewhere in products, lots of them! It shows the CS ratio button ON and Automatic with the correct profile selected. This absolutely follows Apple GUI guidelines. Or the user can follow the instructions burned into the GUI ("Select a custom profile that matches your printer model and paper/media type"). sRGB isn't.

Now we have your software. The same GUI where the GUI should show Automatic, you tell the user to pick sRGB despite the GUI telling the user they should be selecting a profile that matches their printer and paper/media setting. That isn't sRGB! So you have to provide a long tale of text about how the user should pick that anyway. Confusing and unnecessary. So back to my original question that has nothing to do with the API that grays out the ColorSync Radio button: What other software besides Qimage asks users to do what you're asking?
Quote
In the mean time, grayed out or not, invisible or not, the procedure is correct and the only way you can get incorrect results is if you change the settings manually.
It's a brave new Mac world for you and there are standards of behavior expected from many of those customers. Having to tell them to select sRGB in long bits of text outside the driver, while the driver tells them to pick a custom profile is kind of a kludge acceptable on perhaps other OS's but you'll get heat doing so on the Mac. You did! NO one said the sRGB setting is wrong for your software! I said I didn't know about your product and it looks wrong. That it looks wrong is a GUI issue of yours so again, can you tell us of any other software on the Mac using Application Manages Color where the user has to pick sRGB? I don't. Mark?
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