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Author Topic: Qimage for Mac-Canon Pixma Pro9000 Mk II Printer Settings and Color Management.  (Read 9914 times)

digitaldog

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That's a fact, QTR is a very simple software, which for years has no update but works perfectly.
Very recent history shows otherwise. That's a fact.
 That's why some of us are trying to aid the author and the OP. Better vetting of beta's would have made much of this discussion moot too.
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Binartem

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Let me try again as maybe I wasn't clear. There are AFAIK two possible GUI's that follow Apple guidelines. One is an API, rarely used but used none the less which makes this entire area of the driver moot: it sets everything correctly (sRGB or otherwise) and grays out the radio button. While few companies have gone this route, none the less they can and have. Even smaller companies like X-rite. This is the path I suggest you examine now that you know about it!  ;)

We are well aware of that path.  If you are aware of a link that shows these Apple guidelines that state you must gray out the radio box and make the profile invisible as part of their protocol, please share.  In fact, if that is such an important part of their protocol, why would they tuck it away in a private API that is only available upon request through the developer program (we started that process weeks ago and are working with Apple to get what we need). 

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Now we have your software. The same GUI where the GUI should show Automatic, you tell the user to pick sRGB...

We are doing no such thing.  In fact, we do the opposite: we tell the user specifically not to "pick" anything.  When the solution is "don't touch it", it's not a problem to dwell on given the other capabilities of the software, many of which exist nowhere else, even at this early stage when we are still taking feature requests!

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So back to my original question that has nothing to do with the API that grays out the ColorSync Radio button: What other software besides Qimage asks users to do what you're asking?

You are implying that I said that other tools "show sRGB" or do things the same way?  I never claimed that nor is it even relevant.  What I did claim is that other tools, if they follow the protocol, are doing that behind the scenes and the only difference is that the other tools gray out or make controls invisible so you can't see what they are doing.  That is a good thing which is why we have been working toward that end, but we are at the mercy of Apple to provide the private API that allows modification of those controls.  That code is not readily available!  In the mean time, we are breaking no documented guidelines that I am aware of and we have found no one who believes it is a show-stopper to simply not make changes to those controls.  This is particularly true considering once you confirm your settings and you are getting great prints, you can save the setup including all driver settings for future use.  That's something many other printing tools don't offer and it's actually much more likely to make a mistake in the driver (like forgetting to change chroma optimizer or a quality setting) which won't happen when using verified/saved setups.

I feel like there are so many other features in Qimage One relevant to photo printing that spending two pages talking about two controls that are live versus grayed/hidden is not a good use of forum space so I'll stop here.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
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digitaldog

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We are well aware of that path.  If you are aware of a link that shows these Apple guidelines that state you must gray out the radio box and make the profile invisible as part of their protocol, please share. 
There is NO such protocol. If there was, massive numbers of current and older drivers wouldn't do what they do today and have for years. As shown to you from another product. I stated, I thought clearly, that there are two possible paths.
I'll ask my question again then move on: What other software besides Qimage asks users to do what you're asking: set sRGB in the dialog shown more than once here? Or what Apple doc's state it's just fine to ask the user to select an RGB working space (sRGB) rather than what they specifically ask the user to select in THEIR dialog? If you cannot answer, may I suggest more research?
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You are implying that I said that other tools "show sRGB" or do things the same way?
No, I'm asking who else besides you do so on the Mac OS?
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What I did claim is that other tools, if they follow the protocol, are doing that behind the scenes and the only difference is that the other tools gray out or make controls invisible so you can't see what they are doing
No dispute! We're talking about following Apple GUI protocols. You either are or you're not. Which is it? What other Mac OS product, in order to produce a Null Transform asks the user to pick sRGB (or any RGB working space)? Or what Apple doc's state it's just fine to ask the user to select an RGB working space (sRGB) rather than what they specifically ask the user to select in THEIR dialog?
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That is a good thing which is why we have been working toward that end, but we are at the mercy of Apple to provide the private API that allows modification of those controls.
You are indeed at the mercy of following Apple guidelines unless you don't, then some people with decades of familiarly with the Mac will call you out.
Ever think of making an sRGB profile that a user could select named say "Qimage Null printer profile" or something like that such the user doesn't have to know it's sRGB, you get them to select what you wish (until and if you implement the API's that gray out the radio button), then, you're not going against what Apple demands be inserted into that dialog which clearly tells the user to select? At least it wouldn't be an RGB working space called sRGB, it would have a name users would probably easier recognize as the profile you want for the null profile? It's still a hack and a kludge but slightly less so.
Or maybe I'm way off base and you can provide an example of another Mac product that asks the user to select sRGB where you ask them to do so. Can you?
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That code is not readily available!
There might be some here who could assist, those who have inside sources at Apple, Adobe and X-rite who have be able to implement that code.
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In the mean time, we are breaking no documented guidelines that I am aware...
Easy enough to verify for some. But again, if you can find another product that does the same, that be useful data to back up the awareness depending on who's software it may be, if such software exists.
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...we have found no one who believes it is a show-stopper to simply not make changes to those controls.
It isn't about stopping the show, it's about producing software on an OS that follows protocol. Examine the OP's first post here and the first reply: what you're doing is confusing because it appears to be incorrect. Even the dialog box strongly suggests that. As I said, this is a new ballgame making Mac products.
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jrsforums

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Andrew, this is a bit of mountain out of molehill....lotta words for minor nit, that Mike already said they are working at changing.  They don’t have to do any research, just because you ask....particularly since it was a meaninglessness request.
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digitaldog

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Andrew, this is a bit of mountain out of molehill....
Sounds like the comments from someone with no experience producing software for Mac users. Here's more molehills to ignore:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS
https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-guidelines/overview/themes/
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Ernst Dinkla

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This thread brings back all the memories of the idiot proof CM Apple implanted in the OS a decade ago and forced software companies to accept that fact. So idiot safe that color gurus complained for years to come. CM off for target printing became impossible. Apple made Adobe bend over, not once but twice, for OS-X and Windows. In anticipation that Microsoft would follow Apple. It never did. Three months later Adobe offered a Color Print Utility for target printing and it was buggy. Users invented the "Null transform" route to allow target printing from Photoshop till that was made impossible too on Macs. Not a Mac man but I guess the greyed out Colorsync choice Andrew likes to see is the symptom of that. The Colorsync route for CM off was not trusted either. This was around 2012. Roy Harrington wrote a print tool to make CM off printing reliable again for the OS-X crowd that does not have access to X-rite profile creation programs, 39 dollar solution. Meanwhile Qimage users could print targets with CM off like nothing had happened over the last 15 years. Now we see a discussion that is essentially about a CM kludge being camouflaged and made API official versus the same CM kludge that is transparent. A kludge that has its roots in that idiot proof CM approach Apple/Adobe once introduced. I guess it will take three months to get the API in function on Qimage One, the kludge however works but is just not canonized. Three months if Apple does not throw a spanner in the wheels. The complaints about that Apple/Adobe move without decent solutions for months if not years seem to be forgotten and what remains of it is now declared holy. I predict there will not be a CM problem in Q1 for years to come like it was for Mac users and the interface will soon be smooth enough for idiots too.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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jrsforums

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Sounds like the comments from someone with no experience producing software for Mac users. Here's more molehills to ignore:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS
https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-guidelines/overview/themes/

I have no idea how your links have anything to do with the conversation.  Sometimes you logic seems to get lost.

I was just commenting that you were spending a lot of words on what many felt a non-issue.  If you are correct, Qimage One will fail and you can smugly sit back and grin. 

Somehow, I think Mike Chaney will be the one grinning.  He has a track record of delivering and is offering a product which is needed in the Mac space.....and is worlds above any printing offering by Adobe or Pixel Genius.
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John

Abdo

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I do not understand why so many critics, when we can help.   :-[ :-[ :-[

digitaldog

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I have no idea how your links have anything to do with the conversation.
Of course you don’t! ;)
More like the comments from someone with no experience producing software for Mac users.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 09:26:00 am by digitaldog »
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Rand47

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I have no idea how your links have anything to do with the conversation.  Sometimes you logic seems to get lost.

I was just commenting that you were spending a lot of words on what many felt a non-issue.  If you are correct, Qimage One will fail and you can smugly sit back and grin. 

Somehow, I think Mike Chaney will be the one grinning.  He has a track record of delivering and is offering a product which is needed in the Mac space.....and is worlds above any printing offering by Adobe or Pixel Genius.

OR, perhaps Andrew is just trying to provide valuable insight, albeit a bit tersely. No need for “winners and losers” as you suggest, just robust discussion with optimal outcomes in mind. 

Rand
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jrsforums

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Of course you don’t! ;)
More like the comments from someone with no experience producing software for Mac users.

So imperious, as usual.

Why don’t you explain for us “unwashed”.  Be a lot better than being “mystical” and asking questions for others to go off and research for you....or for you to attempt to win arguments with questions rather than answers.

Quite simply, what is wrong with what Mike is doing and the plans he has expressed....oh wise one?
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jrsforums

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OR, perhaps Andrew is just trying to provide valuable insight, albeit a bit tersely. No need for “winners and losers” as you suggest, just robust discussion with optimal outcomes in mind. 

Rand

What insight has he provided.  He has complained, not provided information nor guidance.
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digitaldog

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What insight has he provided.  He has complained, not provided information nor guidance.
None you understood. Time for you to end up on the ignore list.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 10:25:53 am by digitaldog »
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Abdo

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Update 1.06 .... color sync off... :P

digitaldog

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Update 1.06 .... color sync off... :P
Tough love, free feedback based on color management knowledge, and fast efficient coding  by Mike as a result.  ;)
Imagine if someone who had done beta had mentioned this GUI messiness months ago had brought up the subject outside the public forums; none of the below (or above depending on forum preferences) would have been necessary. Kudo's to Mike for 1.0.6!
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Abdo

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I think you need to improve now:

1. cutting marks ...
2. rule in the pages ...

 ;D

Denis de Gannes

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Thanks for the update Mike, its appreciated. In the Windows Driver for my printer there is an option to select no color matching when Qimage is managing the color profile. See the screen capture.
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Binartem

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All's well that ends well.  As I previously pointed out, we signed up for the Apple Developer Program long ago, before even the first beta was released, primarily to gain access to "undocumented" features like being able to gray out those controls.  Acceptance into that program turned out to be more involved than we expected and since we had no real expectation on when we would get approved, we decided to release the software without making those controls grayed or invisible.  We knew users would appreciate being able to get great prints without worrying about two grayed/invisible controls since: (a) the solution worked and got people on board about 2 weeks early and (b) we weren't breaking any guidelines.  If you think we were, you may want to think of the irony of explaining how something that is undocumented can be considered a guideline!

In any case, as luck would have it, our approval came in yesterday which allowed us to spend one of our support tickets obtaining the private code we needed.  I have to say kudos to Apple: they replied with the code the same day!  Credit to Andrew (Wilford) for incorporating it and testing it so quickly.

Happy Printing,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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Binartem

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Thanks for the update Mike, its appreciated. In the Windows Driver for my printer there is an option to select no color matching when Qimage is managing the color profile. See the screen capture.

If you have an ICC profile selected in Qimage One, that is the proper setting: "None".  The helper dialog that appears alongside the driver should tell you that as well.

Regards,
Mike Chaney
Binartem, Inc.
ddisoftware, Inc.
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jrsforums

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Tough love, free feedback based on color management knowledge, and fast efficient coding  by Mike as a result.  ;)
Imagine if someone who had done beta had mentioned this GUI messiness months ago had brought up the subject outside the public forums; none of the below (or above depending on forum preferences) would have been necessary. Kudo's to Mike for 1.0.6!

You are impressed with yourself.  All you did was disrupt.
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