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Author Topic: A7r3 announcement tonight  (Read 571308 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2017, 07:43:54 AM »

Considering the design life cycle there is no doubt that Sony planned the a7rIII long before Nikon released the D850.

Odds are it is simply the result of their strategy for the a7 series of camera that will remain their mid-range as opposed to the higher end a9r.

There is therefore no reason to think you’ll be able to buy a higher res body any time soon without paying the 5,000 US$ the a9r is likely to cost. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2017, 08:50:50 AM »

Considering the design life cycle there is no doubt that Sony planned the a7rIII long before Nikon released the D850.

Odds are it is simply the result of their strategy for the a7 series of camera that will remain their mid-range as opposed to the higher end a9r.

There is therefore no reason to think you’ll be able to buy a higher res body any time soon without paying the 5,000 US$ the a9r is likely to cost. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I really don't care about the cost - more that the product is available. In any case, starting from Sony's underdog position with regards to market share vis-a-vis Canon, there's no way they could make it cost more than the 5Ds replacement and have a commercially-viable product (5Dsr's launch price was USD3900), so that more-or-less sets an upper bound on price.

The design life cycle consists of a number of different units and many different prototypes, most of which can be made ready for production with a few months' notice. It's a continuous process of refinement, improvement and experimentation, with many different prototypes in circulation at any one time, not a case of 'We'll start designing the A7r4 now, and it'll be ready in 24 month's time'. No doubt Sony would have had a number of different A7- and A9-type bodies, all with different sensors in them, to test different aspects of performance. When the time comes, they just pick the most suitable prototype, or most suitable parts from various prototypes ('most suitable' for any number of reasons), decide what to call it and move it towards production. It's the same way most hardware R&D works - the engineering team continually puts out the patents and prototypes, most of which never go to market, then, when management needs a new product, they go to the R&D team's library of prototypes (or prototype components, in the case of modular components) and take the one most suited to the role and put it into production ('most suited' whether in terms of performance, manufacturing cost, manufacturing capacity or just about any other criteria).

I suspect the D850 caught Sony off-guard - not so much with regards to its sensor, but with regards to its overall performance. They had to get something to market relatively quickly. A suitable body and suitable off-sensor electronics were ready, but the next-generation sensor was most likely not (most likely with regards to production methods or production capacity, rather than sensor design). So they just picked the most suitable prototype they could get ready for mass production in the limited time available, while the R&D team continued working on refining sensors, electronics and manufacturing capabilities for future releases. Much easier to use a sensor they're already producing, and probably have many of stored and ready to use, than to quickly start producing a new one.

In any case, the A7r3 hardly represents a 'mid-range' body, any more than the D850. The contest between it and the D850 pretty much comes down to AF - image quality, speed and other features are more-or-less comparable (3MP more on the D850, 1-2fps more on the A7r3, focus stacking on the D850, pixel shift on the A7r3, base ISO 64 on the D850, half a stop better high ISO on the A7r3). Any higher-resolution body is likely to be much slower - say, 70MP/5fps - with data bandwidth being the main bottleneck. The 'Sony being caught off-guard' bit is not with regards to the sensor being 42MP rather than 50-60MP, but with regards to it being the same 42MP sensor as the A7r2, without incorporating any of the sensor refinements of the past 28 months that would improve non-IQ aspects of performance - chief among them, stacked sensor technology. More than likely, they've already got a high-resolution sensor ready (at least design-wise - maybe not in terms of capacity for mass production). But that would make for a slow-shooting camera, not something to compete with the D850. They may not have had an updated 40-50MP sensor ready, that could shoot at the speed needed to compete. No-one expected the D850 to be a 9fps action camera.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:07:36 AM by shadowblade »
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eronald

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2017, 11:49:03 AM »

Maybe Sony's production lines are maxed out, and they're just running the A7RII sensor's fab or clearing out stock?

Also, the stabilisation system, the sensor frame, glass etc are all calibrated to the existing A7R2 device, and it's easy, fast and cheap to just put the whole inside in a new firmware wrapper, add some features and ship. They did exactly the same with the A7SII.

Edmund

I really don't care about the cost - more that the product is available. In any case, starting from Sony's underdog position with regards to market share vis-a-vis Canon, there's no way they could make it cost more than the 5Ds replacement and have a commercially-viable product (5Dsr's launch price was USD3900), so that more-or-less sets an upper bound on price.

The design life cycle consists of a number of different units and many different prototypes, most of which can be made ready for production with a few months' notice. It's a continuous process of refinement, improvement and experimentation, with many different prototypes in circulation at any one time, not a case of 'We'll start designing the A7r4 now, and it'll be ready in 24 month's time'. No doubt Sony would have had a number of different A7- and A9-type bodies, all with different sensors in them, to test different aspects of performance. When the time comes, they just pick the most suitable prototype, or most suitable parts from various prototypes ('most suitable' for any number of reasons), decide what to call it and move it towards production. It's the same way most hardware R&D works - the engineering team continually puts out the patents and prototypes, most of which never go to market, then, when management needs a new product, they go to the R&D team's library of prototypes (or prototype components, in the case of modular components) and take the one most suited to the role and put it into production ('most suited' whether in terms of performance, manufacturing cost, manufacturing capacity or just about any other criteria).

I suspect the D850 caught Sony off-guard - not so much with regards to its sensor, but with regards to its overall performance. They had to get something to market relatively quickly. A suitable body and suitable off-sensor electronics were ready, but the next-generation sensor was most likely not (most likely with regards to production methods or production capacity, rather than sensor design). So they just picked the most suitable prototype they could get ready for mass production in the limited time available, while the R&D team continued working on refining sensors, electronics and manufacturing capabilities for future releases. Much easier to use a sensor they're already producing, and probably have many of stored and ready to use, than to quickly start producing a new one.

In any case, the A7r3 hardly represents a 'mid-range' body, any more than the D850. The contest between it and the D850 pretty much comes down to AF - image quality, speed and other features are more-or-less comparable (3MP more on the D850, 1-2fps more on the A7r3, focus stacking on the D850, pixel shift on the A7r3, base ISO 64 on the D850, half a stop better high ISO on the A7r3). Any higher-resolution body is likely to be much slower - say, 70MP/5fps - with data bandwidth being the main bottleneck. The 'Sony being caught off-guard' bit is not with regards to the sensor being 42MP rather than 50-60MP, but with regards to it being the same 42MP sensor as the A7r2, without incorporating any of the sensor refinements of the past 28 months that would improve non-IQ aspects of performance - chief among them, stacked sensor technology. More than likely, they've already got a high-resolution sensor ready (at least design-wise - maybe not in terms of capacity for mass production). But that would make for a slow-shooting camera, not something to compete with the D850. They may not have had an updated 40-50MP sensor ready, that could shoot at the speed needed to compete. No-one expected the D850 to be a 9fps action camera.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2017, 04:20:50 PM »

Maybe Sony's production lines are maxed out, and they're just running the A7RII sensor's fab or clearing out stock?

Also, the stabilisation system, the sensor frame, glass etc are all calibrated to the existing A7R2 device, and it's easy, fast and cheap to just put the whole inside in a new firmware wrapper, add some features and ship. They did exactly the same with the A7SII.

Edmund

Production lines capable of making stacked sensors, maybe. But probably not sensor production lines in general. Sensors are made in large batches, then kept im storage until needed. They do not continuously roll off the production line, like cars, for the entire production life of the camera they go into. Most likely, they had a large batch of A7r2 sensors ready to be used up, while a suitable successor, with the resolution needed to achieve the desired frame rate, is either not ready for production (no doubt Sony has 24MP and high-resolution sensors ready, but possibly not something in rhe 40-50MP range, which can actually achieve 10fps) or is unable to be produced at present, with the plants capable of making stacked sensors busy producing other things.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2017, 10:53:45 PM »

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7riii-vs-nikon-d850-raw-comparison-tonychelsea-northrup/

No improvement in base ISO DR reported here. As expected, really - the sensor's the same, so there's no real improvement that can be made, apart from reducing the read noise a bit. And the A7r2's read noise is already minimal.

Sony claimed a 1-2 stop improvement at base ISO, but I suspect that refers to shots taken using pixel shift mode. Four exposures would improve the shot noise component by two stops, for an overall improvement of 1-2 stops (since read noise would remain the same). But you could get that DR improvement without pixel shift, anyway, simply by taking multiple shots and averaging them. And it comes without the possibility of motion artifact other than normal motion blur.
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davidgp

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2017, 03:32:30 AM »

Maybe Sony's production lines are maxed out, and they're just running the A7RII sensor's fab or clearing out stock?

Also, the stabilisation system, the sensor frame, glass etc are all calibrated to the existing A7R2 device, and it's easy, fast and cheap to just put the whole inside in a new firmware wrapper, add some features and ship. They did exactly the same with the A7SII.

Edmund

Hi,

As other people said here, I think this camera was long planned, more of a response to the D850 I see it more as a natural evolution of the A7r II, they kept what is really nice of the camera... a really good 42 sensor and they fixed all the things everybody was criticizing: dual cars slots, faster AF, longer battery life, better studio workflow, etc... and for the same original price as the A7r II and only after two years of the A7r II in the market, other manufacturers have long lifecycle in their camera systems...

Also I think with this camera Sony is really trying to start getting money back from the investment in the FE line... still using same sensor (only them are using it on the A7r II, A99, R1X II... ), so they save money on the design of the sensor... they are bringing a lot of thins from the A9: dual slot, battery, etc...

I think Sony will continue to be aggressive... they want to grow a lot... but not as they were at the beginning of A7 line, at least for cameras (in lenses looks like they are still pushing a lot of releases per year... although I will love they released a roadmap like Fuji...)



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henrikfoto

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2017, 04:25:25 AM »

Has anyon seen any real test of the multishot yet?
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davidgp

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2017, 06:05:52 AM »

Has anyon seen any real test of the multishot yet?

Software to mount the images into a single RAW is not yet available, until them, nobody will be able to check them out.

davidgp

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2017, 10:16:47 AM »

DPReview is backing up the Sony claims of the increase DR for the new camera with respect the A7r II: https://www.dpreview.com/news/4302149407/sony-a7r-iii-dynamic-range-improved-nearly-matches-chart-topping-nikon-d850

BJL

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2017, 10:18:01 PM »

DPReview is backing up the Sony claims of the increase DR for the new camera with respect the A7r II: https://www.dpreview.com/news/4302149407/sony-a7r-iii-dynamic-range-improved-nearly-matches-chart-topping-nikon-d850
Improved by 0.43 stops to 13.63 at the pixel level: the 15 stop claim seems to be based on the DXO down-sampled to 8MP measure.
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MoreOrLess

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2017, 03:29:09 AM »

Hi,

As other people said here, I think this camera was long planned, more of a response to the D850 I see it more as a natural evolution of the A7r II, they kept what is really nice of the camera... a really good 42 sensor and they fixed all the things everybody was criticizing: dual cars slots, faster AF, longer battery life, better studio workflow, etc... and for the same original price as the A7r II and only after two years of the A7r II in the market, other manufacturers have long lifecycle in their camera systems...

Also I think with this camera Sony is really trying to start getting money back from the investment in the FE line... still using same sensor (only them are using it on the A7r II, A99, R1X II... ), so they save money on the design of the sensor... they are bringing a lot of thins from the A9: dual slot, battery, etc...

I think Sony will continue to be aggressive... they want to grow a lot... but not as they were at the beginning of A7 line, at least for cameras (in lenses looks like they are still pushing a lot of releases per year... although I will love they released a roadmap like Fuji...)

http://dgpfotografia.com

Yeah I could well see this being the case, the amount of development Sony have put into the FE line in recent years has I would imagine greatly limited its profitability and this camera does look much more like the mature releases from Canon and Nikon to me.

I'm not sure I see the logic of an A9r personally, I mean the recent history of the industry seems clearly to show that high resolution FF bodies are best not as flaships but as mid range pro bodies. The D3x clearly beat the 5D mk2 for image quality yet was nowhere in the market, the 1Ds mk3 never amounted to much either.

I think it makes sense personally as the market for extreme resolution is mostly a market aimed either at amateurs(especially landscape shooters) or pro's on a moderate budget with the higher end ones using MF. These days that's surely going to be even more true with MF going CMOS and coming down in price, as resolution pushes past 50 MP I suspect we'll see the advantage of the larger format become clearer in lens performance, Sony selling a smaller sensor size at a similar price would not be smart IMHO.

Indeed I suspect both Nikon and Sony were weary of the threat from above so looked to maximise there advantage over MF when it came to issues like FPS and AF producing better all round cameras.
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tnargs

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2017, 03:38:30 AM »




I hope we can now agree that there is going to be an a9r that will be more expensive and offer a higher resolution?

Cheers,
Bernard

Absolutely, positively, no. Show me the D5r, the 1Dr.

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Christopher

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2017, 03:54:40 AM »

It never was a 1Dr it was a 1Ds. So I’m sure as well there will be a 9r with 60-70mp next year.


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henrikfoto

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2017, 06:06:34 PM »

Are there still no tests for the multishot  (pixel shift) of the A7r3 ?
As I understood it the process needs postprocessing of pc with a Sony program.
Is this program still awaiting?
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andre_m

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2017, 02:52:20 AM »

I’m wondering too. Since the first day the camera was announced I ask myself how to integrate a processed file in a nondestructive workflow. Little information about the viewer, capture and editing software Imaging Edge (which OS, cameras are supported?) until today.
You can find some information in the Help Guide (page 211 and page 381) like the limitations or locked settings while recording the RAW images using Imaging Edge or a Wireless Remote Commander.
Also interesting is the fact that 'The flash-syncing speed is 1/13 second'.


André

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« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 03:58:14 AM by andre_m »
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henrikfoto

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2017, 04:04:38 AM »

Interesting! But have they shown the resulting pictures with multishot yet, or is this just a dream ;D
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andre_m

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2017, 05:55:52 AM »

This is still the only picture I've seen until now. In the video under the picture you can see another one.
For me the Pixel Shift Multi Shooting is the only important feature of a successor of the A7RII.



André

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henrikfoto

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2017, 06:27:24 AM »

This is still the only picture I've seen until now. In the video under the picture you can see another one.
For me the Pixel Shift Multi Shooting is the only important feature of a successor of the A7RII.


André


I agree on that really. Just waiting for the ms testing. Wondering if it will compete with mf resolution
with this multishot used on macro-shots and still life.? We will soon see I guess
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armand

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2017, 02:35:30 PM »

I'm interested to see how it works with the 24-105.
It's the ideal focal length for hiking and for the sensor size it's not that heavy. For me it needs to be sharper, edge to edge, compared with the Nikon 24-120 f4 and have a decent weather sealing (can tolerated some light drizzle for a minute or two). Sensor is practically as good as any Nikon and the usability should be good enough for landscape.

davidgp

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2017, 09:16:31 AM »

Are there still no tests for the multishot  (pixel shift) of the A7r3 ?
As I understood it the process needs postprocessing of pc with a Sony program.
Is this program still awaiting?

The program and the camera, oficial release day it is November 30th, I don’t think we will see the program until them...



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