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Author Topic: A7r3 announcement tonight  (Read 573853 times)

shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 10:55:16 pm »

If the higher megapixel mosnters happens, I suppose it will be next year as an A9r.

I don't get Sony's camera naming conventions.

The A7r3 uses the A9's battery, dual card slots, EVF, AF system, processor, etc. It runs on a similar data bandwidth to the A9. It even uses the stronger lens mount from the A9 (look at photos of the A7r3 and A9 lens mount and compare them with those of the A7r2). If anything, it's a slower-shooting, higher-resolution A9, not an A7r2 successor.

Alternatively, the A9 could have been the A7s3.

To leave room for a slow-shooting, high-resolution model (say, 70MP/5fps), I would have suggested either:

A9 becomes A7s3
A7r3 becomes A7m3 (skip the A7m and A7m2 designations, to keep all cameras of the same generation the same)
High-resolution model becomes A7r3

Or:

A9 remains A9 (or becomes A9s)
A7r3 becomes A9m
High-resolution body becomes A9r

This would leave the A7/A7s/A7r designation for lower-line models with poorer frame rates, AF and construction, using the same sensor as the A9 models.

Alternatively, keep the 'r' designation and introduce a new designation (e.g. 'A9x') for the slow-shooting, high-resolution version, now that the 'r' series has become a moderate-fast camera with no resolution increase.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 11:02:47 pm »

Hi,

I think it is a good upgrade of the A7r II, it keeps its strong points, very good 42 megapixels sensor, and tackles all the "problems" A7r II, basically AF speed, speed in general, bettery, double cards... etc... (don't worry, someone will find something to complain...). Of course without reaching the level of framerate of more expensive A9...

It doesn't reach the frame rate, but note that it has a very similar data bandwidth (42MP at 10fps being in the same ballpark as 24MP at 20fps).

It's basically a slower-shooting, higher-resolution A9, rather than a slow-shooting, no-frills 'sensor in a box' like the A7r and A7r2.

AF performance will be the critical thing (does it focus like an A9 or an A7?), but, on paper, the A7r3 looks to be the D850-equvalent to the A9's D5-equivalent, rather than a simple A7r2 successor.
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mediumcool

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 05:22:54 am »

Ö four Raw files must be processed using a freely downloadable image processing application for PCs that Sony will offer.

There will be no MacOS version of the software? Puts it off my list immediately.
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mediumcool

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 05:27:25 am »

Where is Canon?   Still banging the out many thousands of dollars of paid work, day in and day out, using that outdated 5Ds.   Some of us donít need to chase.....

Itís the well-heeled amateurs who most needóor desireóthe latest and greatest, and thatís a good thing, because they subsidise working photographers who often use equipment until it fails, or move it on to back-up status before it fails.  :)
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mediumcool

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 05:28:40 am »

There is little doubt that great pictures can be taken by talented photographers with Canon equipment.

Just like great pictures can still be taken with film cameras today.

Cheers,
Bernard

Film?  :-*
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 05:31:38 am »

The Sony A7R III interests me in a way the A7R2 did not. In fact, I sold my A7R2 last night. I donít care about the higher ISOs or frames per second that can be shot. And I am fine with the 42 Mpx size. Having now worked with the Nikon D850 (which I love), I can see that even the somewhat increased size (47 Mpx) begins to further tax my computers (and Photoshop), which itself is very fast. I donít need greater pixels than around 50 Mpx. What I do need (if it works well) is the Pixel-Shift feature that will give me better resolution for that 42 Mpx frame. That I need.

I already have the Voigtlander 65mm Macro for the Sony A7R3, and many non-native lenses that I will see how they adapt. What I might want to pick up are one or two native Sony lenses that are as close to APO as possible. Those of you who use the A7R2 a lot, what are the pristine lenses for that camera that will work well on the A7R3? Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:36:51 am by Michael Erlewine »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 07:39:46 am »

There will be no MacOS version of the software? Puts it off my list immediately.

VMWare?

Cheers,
Bernard

Michael Erlewine

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 07:58:29 am »

"There will be no MacOS version of the software? Puts it off my list immediately.

VMWare?

Cheers,
Bernard"

That is a shame, especially if the pixel-shifting works really well. Around my area, there are tons of low-prices PCs that could be picked up just to run that software.

What lenses for the A7RII/III that approach APO quality?
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 08:50:45 am »

The Sony A7R III interests me in a way the A7R2 did not. In fact, I sold my A7R2 last night. I donít care about the higher ISOs or frames per second that can be shot. And I am fine with the 42 Mpx size. Having now worked with the Nikon D850 (which I love), I can see that even the somewhat increased size (47 Mpx) begins to further tax my computers (and Photoshop), which itself is very fast. I donít need greater pixels than around 50 Mpx. What I do need (if it works well) is the Pixel-Shift feature that will give me better resolution for that 42 Mpx frame. That I need.

I'm not sold on pixel shift for anything other than commercial and technical photography. When it works, the results are great, but, when there's any movement at all, the colour artifacts are awful (much worse than simple motion blur).

Certainly, it will be very useful for document and art reproduction, microscopy, architecture and real estate photography, studio-based product photography (probably using continuous lights - flash may not be compatible) and other scenes with no moving elements (not even slightly moving) at all. But, outside of those applications, completely nonmoving scenes, where both the camera and the scene can be completely nonmoving (that also rules out drones, or anything taken from a platform that could shake or vibrate a bit, even some bridges and tall buildings) are few and far between.

Perhaps its main use in general photography will be as a blended layer, in a similar vein to blending exposures with different focus, exposure or polarisation settings. You could take an extra pixel-shifted frame and benefit from it anywhere in the scene that's not affected by movement, while blending in parts from the single exposure to cover the moving areas. But this is contingent on third-party RAW converters being able to utilise pixel shift - if you have to process the pixel-shift RAW on Sony's proprietary converter, while processing the normal RAWs in C1, DxO Optics or your other usual RAW converter, it may be very difficult to get the two images to match up correctly for blending (unless you'd particularly enjoy using Sony's Image Data Converter for all your RAW processing).

Quote
I already have the Voigtlander 65mm Macro for the Sony A7R3, and many non-native lenses that I will see how they adapt. What I might want to pick up are one or two native Sony lenses that are as close to APO as possible. Those of you who use the A7R2 a lot, what are the pristine lenses for that camera that will work well on the A7R3? Thanks in advance.

You can put just about any lens onto an E-mount body. Not sure what you're using the camera for, but, if you don't care about autofocus, you have lots of options.

With regards to native lenses, the 12-24 is as sharp or sharper than anything out there, with only the Canon 11-24 coming close. The 16-35 f/2.8 is the equal of the Canon 16-35 f/2.8L III (possibly slightly sharper in the peripheries and slightly softer in the centre) and as sharp as most of the primes within the wider half of that range, but with the added versatility of a zoom. The 24-70 is as good as the Canon and Nikon equivalents (the Canon having an extremely sharp centre but falling off towards the edges, the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 VR being less sharp than the Canon and Sony in the centre, but sharper than the Canon in the corners at 24mm, and sharper than both in the corners at 70mm). The 100-400 is as good as it gets sharpness-wise among its equivalents, probably even edging out the Canon 100-400.

For landscape photography, it's had to go past the versatility and sharpness of these zooms. The 12-24, 24-70 and 100-400 have you almost covered from 12-400mm, with a gap in the 70-100mm range which can be covered by an 85mm lens or by stitching (the angle of view at those focal lengths make stitching geometrically easy compared to wider angles). Add in a dedicated portrait lens if you like to shoot those, or a dedicated macro lens (although the 100-400 does a very credible job with a magnification of 0.35x, with the added bonus of being able to blur the background to oblivion even when shooting at f/16 for greater DOF on the subject).

I'd avoid the 70-200 f/2.8, though. It's probably fine for shooting events or for video, but, for critical sharpness, it just doesn't stack up to the latest Nikon, or even the ageing Canon.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 09:17:24 am »

I do only close-up nature stills on a tripod, so the Pixel-shift is exactly what I need, if it works well.  In general, I don't like zoom lenses, which shadowblade pointed out, so probably not going there. If there are any prime lenses native for the Sony A7RII/III, that are APO or close, those are the ones I would like to hear about. I am all set up to use the A7RIII on the Cambo Actus with all kinds of Large Format lenses.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2017, 09:58:02 am »

I do only close-up nature stills on a tripod, so the Pixel-shift is exactly what I need, if it works well.  In general, I don't like zoom lenses, which shadowblade pointed out, so probably not going there. If there are any prime lenses native for the Sony A7RII/III, that are APO or close, those are the ones I would like to hear about. I am all set up to use the A7RIII on the Cambo Actus with all kinds of Large Format lenses.

The Zeiss Batis 135mm f/2.8, supposedly. Although it only has a maximum magnification of 0.18x, which probably doesn't work so well for close-ups.

How would you use pixel shift in nature close-ups? Even a slight breeze or a bit of vibration would make subjects move a pixel or two.
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rgmoore

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 10:00:48 am »

Michael,

According to Brian Smith, celebrity photographer and Sony Artisan, Sony/Zeiss 55mm f1.8 is "virtually on par with the performance of Zeiss Otus 55mm f1.4."

Which tripod and head combination do you use with Cambo Actus for your close-up photography?

Thanks.

Richard
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:05:36 am by rgmoore »
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 10:42:50 am »

The Zeiss Batis 135mm f/2.8, supposedly. Although it only has a maximum magnification of 0.18x, which probably doesn't work so well for close-ups.

How would you use pixel shift in nature close-ups? Even a slight breeze or a bit of vibration would make subjects move a pixel or two.

You wait for those few mornings when it is calm and work fast.


Richard asked:" Which tripod and head combination do you use with Cambo Actus for your close-up photography?"

I use RRS (Series 3 tripod) most of the time with an Arca-Swiss Cube 1 geared head.
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rgmoore

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2017, 01:02:30 pm »

Thank you, Michael.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 06:47:27 am »

There is little doubt that great pictures can be taken by talented photographers with Canon equipment.

Just like great pictures can still be taken with film cameras today.

Cheers,
Bernard

Apparently, there must be numerous photographers (talent not withstanding) that use Canon cameras. Canon still largely dominates the market, apparently frustrating many (or only a few?) other photographers. All in spite of Canon being perceived a "boring", "retrograde", "about to die" company.

Go figure.

hogloff

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2017, 07:41:03 am »

Apparently, there must be numerous photographers (talent not withstanding) that use Canon cameras. Canon still largely dominates the market, apparently frustrating many (or only a few?) other photographers. All in spite of Canon being perceived a "boring", "retrograde", "about to die" company.

Go figure.

I still see lineups at McDonalds as well. Must be making great food as many still eat there. Go figure.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 08:30:17 am »

Apparently, there must be numerous photographers (talent not withstanding) that use Canon cameras. Canon still largely dominates the market, apparently frustrating many (or only a few?) other photographers. All in spite of Canon being perceived a "boring", "retrograde", "about to die" company.

Canon does produce reliable tools that perform well and have helped millions of photographers take great pictures.

But their lack of innovation isn't just boring, it slows down progress across brands. The a7rIII would be 60mp if Canon moved faster.

And it is indeed infuriating to see smart marketing continuously compensate technical shortcomings because the continued commercial success of Canon is probably blinding them into thinking they are doing a great job and don't need to do more.

Cheers,
Bernard

MoreOrLess

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 08:55:39 am »

I don't get Sony's camera naming conventions.

The A7r3 uses the A9's battery, dual card slots, EVF, AF system, processor, etc. It runs on a similar data bandwidth to the A9. It even uses the stronger lens mount from the A9 (look at photos of the A7r3 and A9 lens mount and compare them with those of the A7r2). If anything, it's a slower-shooting, higher-resolution A9, not an A7r2 successor.

Alternatively, the A9 could have been the A7s3.

To leave room for a slow-shooting, high-resolution model (say, 70MP/5fps), I would have suggested either:

A9 becomes A7s3
A7r3 becomes A7m3 (skip the A7m and A7m2 designations, to keep all cameras of the same generation the same)
High-resolution model becomes A7r3

Or:

A9 remains A9 (or becomes A9s)
A7r3 becomes A9m
High-resolution body becomes A9r

This would leave the A7/A7s/A7r designation for lower-line models with poorer frame rates, AF and construction, using the same sensor as the A9 models.

Alternatively, keep the 'r' designation and introduce a new designation (e.g. 'A9x') for the slow-shooting, high-resolution version, now that the 'r' series has become a moderate-fast camera with no resolution increase.

I suspect if Sony had an ultra high resolution sensor ready to launch in the near future we would have seen it in this camera where it could potentially make maximum impact on the market.

I'm guessing Nikon will be quite happy that Sony hasn't really been able to offer a headline feature to best the D850 here or undercut them in price significantly.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 11:45:55 am »

I suspect if Sony had an ultra high resolution sensor ready to launch in the near future we would have seen it in this camera where it could potentially make maximum impact on the market.

I'm guessing Nikon will be quite happy that Sony hasn't really been able to offer a headline feature to best the D850 here or undercut them in price significantly.

That's exactly why they've launched these products when they did.

Part of it is defensive - limiting the impact of a rival's release. Part of it is offensive - expanding market share. And part of it is profit-grabbing - maximising sales. All three aspects have to be done in balance.

Sony has all the necessary components and designs available to make any of a number of cameras - fast/low-resolution, medium speed/medium resolution, slow/high-resolution, all with similar features in other respects (AF, construction, etc.). It's just a matter of finalising and releasing each one at the optimal time. But they can only release each one once. Each camera design is like a round of ammunition in Sony's arsenal - an expendable resource that must be saved for the most opportune moment. If they released everything at once, it would likely be of limited effect, and leave their magazines empty until R&D can replenish them.

It made sense to release the A9 first. It came out a year after the D5 and 1Dx2, and well before the next generation is due. Sony couldn't have released the A9 at the same time as the D5/1Dx2, since it wouldn't have been anywhere near ready. So the A9's release was a pure offensive move, designed to win market share and earn Sony a foothold in the fast action market. Prior to its release, Sony didn't have a demonstrated capability to make a fast-focusing, fast-tracking camera suitable for shooting sports. No-one knew whether the A9 would be able to match the AF of Canon/Nikon sports cameras, or existed more at the level of the 5D3/5D4 general-purpose cameras. It had to demonstrate that capability to the public somehow. Any of the possible combinations - fast/low-resolution, medium/medium resolution or slow/high-resolution - could have demonstrated this, but the fast/low-resolution body made the most sense to release. For one, it had the lowest opportunity cost - the A9 doesn't really compete with the A7r2 for user base, since they serve almost opposite ends of the photographer spectrum, so self-cannibalisation would have been less of an issue. Secondly, it expanded the Sony lineup into, and made Sony a viable (if niche at this point, given the lens selection) competitor in a new area of photography, where they had previous lacked any presence. Thirdly, it made much more sense to release the fast/low-resolution body earlier in the product cycle of the 1Dx2/D5, when neither Nikon nor Canon would be ready with an update that would thoroughly trounce the A9. And, finally, from a profit-grabbing point of view, it made more sense to release key features in dribs and drabs rather than all at once. In this case, fast AF was the key feature (dual slots, better mount and bigger battery are all nice, but would probably not have sold a new body by themselves without the AF). It was not available in the A7r2 - in order to get better AF, users would have to buy the A9. But the A9 doesn't offer 42MP (20fps is nice to have, but it's a relatively niche feature that, for most applications, isn't as generally useful as 10fps/42MP). For many buyers, 24MP is enough, though. By doing what they did, they forced anyone who didn't want to wait for a fast-focusing Sony to buy the A9, while still leaving room for repeat sales in the future from either a fast-focusing, high-resolution model (with users buying the A9 first for the AF, then selling it and buying the A7r3 or A9r when it came out and was more suited to their needs) or a budget model with the same AF but slower frame rate (A7Mk3, possibly). This wouldn't have been the case if they had released one of the higher-resolution bodies first, nor would it have been the case if they had released an A7Mk3 first.

I suspect that Sony's recent release of the A7r3 was a defensive move, to limit the impact of the D850 by introducing an equally-capable competitor. Whether it was planned way ahead, or only in the last few months, likely depends on how much Sony Camera knew about the capabilities of the D850 - they may have known something about the sensor, but possibly not the rest of the camera. Certainly, if the D850 had not been released or was much less capable, I would have expected the A7Mk3 (24MP like the A9, but slower-shooting and possibly with weaker AF) to come out before the A7r3 (basically a medium-speed, medium-resolution version of the A9). But a 24MP/7fps 'budget' camera would have left the D850 go unchecked and allowed Nikon to run riot amongst the biggest category of high-spending user (those who need some speed, but not necessarily 20fps, but would also like some resolution to go with it), with no Sony body able to match both the resolution and the AF of the Nikon (let alone the frame rate). In fact, it was rumoured until very recently that the budget model would be what Sony would release next - perhaps it was a last-minute change of plans (presuming that any of the designs are ready to go the moment management decide it's time, with a few months needed to switch around production lines, etc.).

Most likely Sony hasn't released the high-resolution/slow-shooting version yet not because it doesn't have one, but because it doesn't need to, and because more profit can be made by releasing it in six months' time. They could have released it instead of the A7r3, but, not only would it have been less profitable to do so (a significant number of people will buy a 42MP/10fps body now as well as a 70MP/5fps body later, either selling or keeping the older body; it is likely that fewer would do the reverse, assuming AF capability is the same) but a 70MP/5fps body also wouldn't provide the same defensive barrier against the D850. It would have left Sony with a fast-shooting, low resolution action body and a slow-shooting, high-resolution body, but left the entire middle ground to Nikon.

I suspect we will see the high-resolution/slow-shooting body in 6-9 months time, after all the early-adopter/impatient buyer A7r3 sales have been made - just in time to meet Canon's 5Ds2 (possibly pre-empting it, and, if Canon hasn't stepped up with the capabilities, rendering it a flop).

And no doubt Sony is working on the next generation already, to meet the Canon/Nikon mirrorless challenge. The current generation - A9, A7r3, whatever the high-resolution/slow-shooting one is called and the A7Mk3 - are all ready, to be put into action when the time is right. R&D is almost certainly focusing on the next generation now, in time for the Tokyo Olympics.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 11:48:57 am by shadowblade »
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r3 announcement tonight
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2017, 06:28:05 pm »

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the A7r3 had a relatively short product cycle (like the original A7r), being replaced not long after the high-resolution/low fps and the budget models (A7 mk 3) are released.

The A7r3, despite its major improvements over the A7r2 and its greater functionality than the A9 for anything that doesn't call for ridiculous frame rates, seems to be almost a stop-gap measure, released in response to the D850. It recycles an older sensor that, despite its IQ, lacks the stacked sensor design for fast readout needed for certain aspects of AF and viewfinder performance. I don't know how much this will impact on PDAF performance compared to the A9 (since I believe Sony uses a separate layer in front of the photosites for that), but, regardless, it may have an impact on other aspects of performance. It's almost as if Sony had everything ready for the new body but the sensor, and was forced into releasing a product ar this time with an older sensor, rather than waiting six months or a year for a newer one. I could see the A7r3 being replaced in 12-18 months by a stacked sensor design in the 42-54MP, 8-10fps range with further AF and EVF improvements (in addition to the A9 and a high-resolution/low-speed body).

Regardless, the A7r3 will live or die by its AF and action performance vs both the D850 and the A9. I think camera companies may be starting to wake up to the fact that it's not just those shooting at 20fps who need fast, accurate AF and tracking. Many applications only call for modest frame rates and could use higher resolutions than available with the high-speed bodies, yet call for AF that tracks just as quickly and accurately as the high-speed bodies. Low frame rate does not mean non-action. And Canon/Nikon used to give it to us, with the 1Ds3 and D3x having AF systems identical to those of their high speed/low resolution contemporaries. Starting with the D850, it may just be starting to come back now.
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