long live NRA - next convention in Mandalay Bay !

[Robert Roaldi]

America has many of the same regulations although it does vary state by state since we are a Federal Republic.  Regulations in cities such as NY are more restrictive, especially carry laws.

The fact is, with 240 million guns, Americans are pretty responsible for the most part and America has pretty restrictive purchase and use laws.  Curious.  Did Europe tighten up on leasing trucks after the truck terrorist killings?

You're right. There is no problem. Just keep doing what you're doing, it's working so well.

[RSL]

Jim, I can't resist getting back in for one more shot: Look at it this way. All this shooting is practice for when we have to go overseas to Europe or Asia and bail their asses out of the hole they're in because they never learned to shoot straight.

My apologies. When I came back and read this I realized it came out wrong. By "all this shooting" I didn't mean murders. I meant the kind of shooting people learn to do by owning and using their guns -- usually on a range. It prepares us for the kind of nation-rescue operations we've been forced to do in Europe and Asia since 1917, and which, considering the kind of faux high-mindedness I'm reading here, I'm sure we'll have to do again. It's neat, guys, that not being allowed to own a gun keeps down the shootings in your societies (though it doesn't keep down the bombings, knifings, truck-rundowns, etc. that nobody wants to mention). But when a Hitler or a Stalin arms his army and teaches it to shoot, it leaves your population defenseless. Then that nasty U.S., with all its nasty guns, has to come to your rescue -- over and over and over again.

[pegelli]

Then that nasty U.S., with all its nasty guns, has to come to your rescue -- over and over and over again.

I don't want to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2 but calling it "over and over again" for twice in the last 120 years (and I can't remember an instance before that) and especially the second time because you were attacked yourself first as well as doing it together with the Russians and others seems overly dramatic.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I meant the kind of shooting people learn to do by owning and using their guns -- usually on a range. It prepares us for the kind of nation-rescue operations we've been forced to do in Europe and Asia since 1917, and which, considering the kind of faux high-mindedness I'm reading here, I'm sure we'll have to do again.

I believe the US military does a very good job of firearms training for those soldiers who are deployed overseas.  Civilian gun training is a very poor substitute for what you are claiming.

[pegelli]

(though it doesn't keep down the bombings, knifings, truck-rundowns, etc. that nobody wants to mention).

You mentioned it and at your request I showed it was insignificant vs. homicides in the US. Don't play "victim" when in fact you're just eager to keep mentioning the same debunked arguments.

[RSL]

I believe the US military does a very good job of firearms training for those soldiers who are deployed overseas.  Civilian gun training is a very poor substitute for what you are claiming.

I'd have to agree, Alan, since I was captain of the pistol team at Richards-Gebaur AFB for a while before I went to Vietnam. But I don't agree that civilian gun training is a poor substitute. I was brought up with guns and learned to shoot safely at an early age. When I was fourteen I even, for a few months, was Michigan state junior smallbore rifle champ. My high school had a rifle team. Horrors!

[RSL]

I don't want to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2 but calling it "over and over again" for twice in the last 120 years (and I can't remember an instance before that) and especially the second time because you were attacked yourself first as well as doing it together with the Russians and others seems overly dramatic.

Hi Pieter. Guess you missed the term "Asia." And yes, in WW II we were attacked ourselves. Why do you suppose that was so? Maybe it had something to do with the fact that except for Britain the whole Western world had demonstrated its wussiness. And as far as not wanting to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2, you CAN'T. If it weren't for the U.S. and its guns you'd be forced to become a member of the Nazi party.

[Manoli]

Then that nasty U.S., with all its nasty guns, has to come to your rescue -- over and over and over again.

Yup, just like it did with it's own hostages in Iran in 1979 !

8 helicopters and elite crews and yet 3 choppers failed on mission (actually one crashed into its refuelling C-130).
Now compare that with how the British dealt with the Iranian Embassy siege in 1980 - and you begin to understand that NO amount of civilian training is going to bring them up to SAS standard.

And let's not forget the UN / EU support for the US military intervention in both the Iraq wars.


 

[RSL]

ROTFL!!! Check who was president during the hostage crisis and check which president ended the hostage crisis. Yes, in that case we were as wussy as Europe during WW II. But what really got me ROTFL was your reference to UN support during the Iraq wars. Yep. They really turned up the pressure and talked even faster.

[Manoli]

Hi Pieter. Guess you missed the term "Asia." And yes, in WW II we were attacked ourselves. Why do you suppose that was so? Maybe it had something to do with the fact that except for Britain the whole Western world had demonstrated its wussiness. And as far as not wanting to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2, you CAN'T. If it weren't for the U.S. and its guns you'd be forced to become a member of the Nazi party.

America came over to Europe for the final push against Hitler in the invasion of France (and Italy). But actually Hitler got beat by those pesky Russians ... ever heard of Stalingrad ?

[RSL]

Absolutely, Manoli. And we had nothing to do with the fact that Britain was losing ground in the Atlantic and the Pacific and by coming in we saved their ass. At least that's what Churchill believed, as he's made absolutely clear in his WW II books. Maybe you need to go back and refresh your grasp of history. But maybe you're right. Maybe we should have just stayed home. You guys probably would have been fine under either Nazi or Russian Communist rule.

Sorry if I sound passionate about all this, but I was around when all this crap went down. I was 15 when WW II ended. Missed that one, but didn't miss Asia just seven years later. Been there. Done that. And I get damn tired of hearing theories and feelings from people who've never come within sight of any of it.

[pegelli]

Hi Pieter. Guess you missed the term "Asia." And yes, in WW II we were attacked ourselves. Why do you suppose that was so? Maybe it had something to do with the fact that except for Britain the whole Western world had demonstrated its wussiness. And as far as not wanting to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2, you CAN'T. If it weren't for the U.S. and its guns you'd be forced to become a member of the Nazi party.

Asia was in your first sentence, when you started to talk about Stalin and Hitler I thought you were specifically referring to Europe. And don't kid yourself, while the US played a major role you couldn't have done it without the other allies. There is no need to claim all the glory, and by the way I think shared glory with allies is much more honorable than claiming it all yourself. When you are 15 you tend to romanticise and believe all you read in the US press who claim it's all US and downplayed the role of other allies in WW2. Just like you recently "read" the homicide rate in France and Germmany was approaching that in the US. I'm sure there was a similar hidden agenda in that article

[Littlefield]

I'd have to agree, Alan, since I was captain of the pistol team at Richards-Gebaur AFB for a while before I went to Vietnam. But I don't agree that civilian gun training is a poor substitute. I was brought up with guns and learned to shoot safely at an early age. When I was fourteen I even, for a few months, was Michigan state junior smallbore rifle champ. My high school had a rifle team. Horrors!

Yep, many of the famous U.S snipers like Hathcock come from a solid hunting background.
Don

[degrub]

yep, great practice is picking off varmits through the eye at 100+ yards with a 22 short.

[RSL]

No sweat, Grub, it just takes practice.

[Alan Klein]

I don't want to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2 but calling it "over and over again" for twice in the last 120 years (and I can't remember an instance before that) and especially the second time because you were attacked yourself first as well as doing it together with the Russians and others seems overly dramatic.

You mention "twice" as if they were little gunboat skirmishes.  They were the two largest wars in history, after all.  Since then, American arms kept Western Europe safe from Communist aggression from the Soviets after the WWII as well.    American arms still keeps Europe safe from the Russians today and western allies in the Pacific.   I never can figure out whether it's Europe's ingratitude or embarrassment that many Europeans, not including you Pete, always feel it necessary to knock our help.     

[degrub]

Absolutely, Manoli. And we had nothing to do with the fact that Britain was losing ground in the Atlantic and the Pacific and by coming in we saved their ass. At least that's what Churchill believed, as he's made absolutely clear in his WW II books. Maybe you need to go back and refresh your grasp of history. But maybe you're right. Maybe we should have just stayed home. You guys probably would have been fine under either Nazi or Russian Communist rule.

Sorry if I sound passionate about all this, but I was around when all this crap went down. I was 15 when WW II ended. Missed that one, but didn't miss Asia just seven years later. Been there. Done that. And I get damn tired of hearing theories and feelings from people who've never come within sight of any of it.

Then it was Japanese imperialism that the West blunted by cutting off oil and steel supply followed by Korean opportunism in a proxy war. Now it is resurgent Chinese imperialism, both economic and physical, that we will have to resist.

[pegelli]

You mention "twice" as if they were little gunboat skirmishes.  They were the two largest wars in history, after all.  Since then, American arms kept Western Europe safe from Communist aggression from the Soviets after the WWII as well.    American arms still keeps Europe safe from the Russians today and western allies in the Pacific.   I never can figure out whether it's Europe's ingratitude or embarrassment that many Europeans, not including you Pete, always feel it necessary to knock our help.     

I'm not knocking the US help, (see several of my posts), I'm just trying to put some of the dramatic overstatements in perspective. It's not like the US does this only out of their "good heart", there's a great deal of self interest in it as well, both financially as well as the power/status you get for being one of world's policemen.

[Alan Klein]

I'm not knocking the US help, (see several of my posts), I'm just trying to put some of the dramatic overstatements in perspective. It's not like the US does this only out of their "good heart", there's a great deal of self interest in it as well, both financially as well as the power/status you get for being one of world's policemen.

I appreciate that.  Regarding policeman, I think Americans are getting tired of it after Iraq, Afghanistan and other places.  Many thought Trump would pull back.  But that was an illusion.  We're into NATO, the Pacific and the Middle East as much as ever.  However, if there is another recession, I think Americans would insist we pull back.  There's just not the money for it any more. 

[pegelli]

There's just not the money for it any more.

And then it will be the defense industry and its workers that will suffer most. That's what their Washington lobby is currently trying to protect.