long live NRA - next convention in Mandalay Bay !

[Jim Pascoe]

And however we compare or debate the mass-murder by gun statistics, the real tragedy in the US is the regular murder rate.

The 'Intentional Homicide Rate' shows in one year almost 16,000 people killed in the USA compared to 600 in the UK.  Scaled up to the US population that would make 3500 murders in the US.

The mass shootings may make the headlines, but really it is the everyday killing that gun-control would help alleviate.  Whatever other methods are available to kill - guns are too quick and easy and should be heavily restricted.

Jim

[Alan Klein]

You are comparing apples and oranges by concentrating on guns only. In absence of guns, people in other countries use something else. Knife is a known problem in Britain, for instance.

Besides, we are talking here about mass shootings. Most other shootings in the States are intra- and inter-gang related. When it comes to mass shootings:

"There were 55% more casualties per capita from mass public shootings in EU than US from 2009-15"





Source: https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

Any reason Mexico isn't on the list and where it would be if it was?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I'm sure there are a hundred more ways by looking at artificial (and favourable for your cause) subsets of the data ...

I thought you are a fan of per-capita statistics?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Any reason Mexico isn't on the list and where it would be if it was?

They'd have to swim realllllly long way to become Europeans

[Alan Klein]

They'd have to swim realllllly long way to become Europeans

Maybe I should go back to sleep.   Anyway, it would be interesting to see Mexico and other countries, not jus European. 

[Alan Klein]

OK here's a world list of per capita deaths by firearm.  It seems the US is 94th highest out of 219 countries.  That surprised me being so low.  Surprisingly Greenland (Denmark) is higher at 31st and sunny and friendly Bermuda at 85th.   European countries are a lot less.  I guess they save up their anger for wars every few decades.  At least the US's 94th beat out Kyrgyzstan at 93rd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[pegelli]

I thought you are a fan of per-capita statistics?

As a denominator yes, but the problem in the analysis you linked is the numerator

[pegelli]

European countries are a lot less.  I guess they save up their anger for wars every few decades. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Switserland is also pretty low, and they haven't been involved in any war for a very long time. So there must be another reason, and I guess the absence of a European equivalent of the NRA might have something to do with it

[scyth]

You are comparing apples and oranges by concentrating on guns only. In absence of guns, people in other countries use something else. Knife is a known problem in Britain, for instance.

ability to use a knife, a crowbar, a bottle, a fist or whatever is not a reason not to limit access to guns and ammunition ...

[Alan Klein]

Switserland is also pretty low, and they haven't been involved in any war for a very long time. So there must be another reason, and I guess the absence of a European equivalent of the NRA might have something to do with it

There are two reason for American's love affair with guns.  First, America's use of firearms owned by the citizenry was used against the British in 1776 to win our independence.  Secondly, our Constitution's continuing protection of the right of ordinary citizens to bear arms to defend ourselves from any future attempt to replace our elected government with a dictatorship.  The NRA defends us against those who would prefer the government have all the arms because their method of government resembles Cuba and the Soviet Union.   They don't want an armed citizenry.

It's interesting you mention Switzerland where most households have guns which is required by Swiss law. 

[scyth]

I kept checking back on this thread today hoping that this posting would have been removed.

[32BT]

ability to use a knife, a crowbar, a bottle, a fist or whatever is not a reason not to limit access to guns and ammunition ...

Well, actually it is, because firearms would be a good method to defend yourself from such attacks.

Mind you, I am not a proponent of firearms for the public, I live in a country with guncontrol which for our culture and background is probably the right choice. Problem in our country seems to be that most shootings are executed by armypersonel with PTSD. This of course makes the discussion about guncontrol that much harder.

Note that even for armypersonel or police forces, gun ownership still has all kinds of restrictions. Toddlers inadvertently shooting their siblings is not something that could happen here.

[Alan Klein]

ability to use a knife, a crowbar, a bottle, a fist or whatever is not a reason not to limit access to guns and ammunition ...

There are many, many laws that prevent the purchase of guns and regulate their use after purchase.  The guy in Las Vegas appears to have had done nothing in his past history that would have restrained his legal ability to buy guns.  You would have had to outlaw guns, period.  That is unconstitutional. 

[Alan Klein]

Well, actually it is, because firearms would be a good method to defend yourself from such attacks.

Mind you, I am not a proponent of firearms for the public, I live in a country with guncontrol which for our culture and background is probably the right choice. Problem in our country seems to be that most shootings are executed by armypersonel with PTSD. This of course makes the discussion about guncontrol that much harder.

Note that even for armypersonel or police forces, gun ownership still has all kinds of restrictions. Toddlers inadvertently shooting their siblings is not something that could happen here.

Where is here?

[scyth]

It's interesting you mention Switzerland where most households have guns which is required by Swiss law.

it will be nice to have the same regulations for getting and carrying firearms and ammo as in Switzerland = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland 

[32BT]

Where is here?

The Netherlands

[scyth]

Well, actually it is, because firearms would be a good method to defend yourself from such attacks.

in your dreams only... just like owning a tuned car does not make you a race driver.

[scyth]

The guy in Las Vegas appears to have had done nothing in his past history that would have restrained his legal ability to buy guns. 

the ability to buy and own multiple guns w as we have here shall be gone for a start ...

[32BT]

in your dreams only... just like owning a tuned car does not make you a race driver.

Well, yes I agree, but that's why you practice under controlled circumstances. I was just paraphrasing the general argument that proponents would make, though. I don't think I would personally be able to defend myself that way even with practice.

[Alan Klein]

it will be nice to have the same regulations for getting and carrying firearms and ammo as in Switzerland = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland 

America has many of the same regulations although it does vary state by state since we are a Federal Republic.  Regulations in cities such as NY are more restrictive, especially carry laws.

The fact is, with 240 million guns, Americans are pretty responsible for the most part and America has pretty restrictive purchase and use laws.  Curious.  Did Europe tighten up on leasing trucks after the truck terrorist killings?