Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Fuji GFX 50c and Hassie X1D - anyone ACTUALLY tested each PERSONALLY?  (Read 11177 times)

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word

Jim, best described as seen by my eye is:
Compressed looking color ramps, particularly in the green ramp.
Contrast is difficult to "back down" without loosing all of the "snap" in the global image area.
Yes to inky/muddled shadows.
High lights hold up very well, so no complaint there.

For the Hassie I used Phocus and for the Sony I use Capture One.

This sounds to me like differences between raw processors, since the GFX and a7RII raw files are both nearly perfectly linear, and the GFX has only a bit less noise. I am, of course, assuming that the H6D 50c raw files look like the GFX raw files, which I don't know for a fact but they do use the same sensor and Bill Claff shows them about on top of each other:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20GFX%2050S,Hasselblad%20H6D-50c

The GFX handles the high ISOs differently from the Hassie, signaling a push in post in the metadata, which confuses Bill's software there.

Although I no longer use it since I sold my H2D-39, it's clear to me that Phocus does some things exceptionally well.

Jim

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing

Jim, I think you touched on one to two points that stay in my thoughts:

1.)  RAW Developer:
Phocus - built by Hassie for Hassie.
Sony - Capture One just plugged them in with a little tweeking

2.)  Bit depth of the RAW file
Hassie - they must be taking the 14 bit data stream from the array and hardware ramping it to a 16 bit file giving much smoother color ramps.  Thus, when I convert from color to B&W, I have quite a bit more data to "push" to bring the drama/intensity I seek in my B&W's.

I have thought of writing a routine that will take a RAW Sony file, split it open, then convert the RAW channel to 16 bits, then repack it as a RAW file.

Would be interesting to see if it replicated the smoother ramps I have worked with for years from Hassie.

Jim, IF I look at the DMAX of the X1D and the GFX, I see no reason to put my money into the X1D.
But that is just part of the evaluation equation, unfortunately. 

Have you played with the latest stable of RAW developers?
I'm now wondering if there is one that would surpass the results I'm getting from Capture One with the Sony aR7II files.

Jack

 

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word

Jim, I think you touched on one to two points that stay in my thoughts:

1.)  RAW Developer:
Phocus - built by Hassie for Hassie.
Sony - Capture One just plugged them in with a little tweeking

2.)  Bit depth of the RAW file
Hassie - they must be taking the 14 bit data stream from the array and hardware ramping it to a 16 bit file giving much smoother color ramps.  Thus, when I convert from color to B&W, I have quite a bit more data to "push" to bring the drama/intensity I seek in my B&W's.

I have thought of writing a routine that will take a RAW Sony file, split it open, then convert the RAW channel to 16 bits, then repack it as a RAW file.

Would be interesting to see if it replicated the smoother ramps I have worked with for years from Hassie.

Jim, IF I look at the DMAX of the X1D and the GFX, I see no reason to put my money into the X1D.
But that is just part of the evaluation equation, unfortunately. 

Have you played with the latest stable of RAW developers?
I'm now wondering if there is one that would surpass the results I'm getting from Capture One with the Sony aR7II files.


With the RN of the a7RII, the GFX, the X1D, or the H6D 50c, there is plenty of dither for a 14-bit ADC. Adding more bits does not improve the image, even at base ISO.

Here's a whole bunch of posts on dither:

http://blog.kasson.com/?s=dither

Camera raw files don't have Dmax. They have saturation and noise. Are you trying to get at dynamic range? I prefer photographic dynamic range for all purposes except technical ones. At base ISO, all the 51 MP cameras above have about the same PDR, and it exceeds the a7RII, but not by a lot.  Above ISO 640, they're all about the same.

I use Lr for normal raw developing, and Iridient Developer if I've got something I can't deal with in Lr.

I suspect that you don't like the C1 camera profiles you've used. Have you tried a lot of them? One fun thing about the GFX is you can use some Fuji film-look profiles:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-profiles-for-the-gfx-50s/

Jim

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto

Hi Jack,

The X1D is actually a 14 bit device. It delivers data 16 bits wide, but only each fourth value is actually used. There is some preprocessing done on raw data, though so there are numbers in each "channel".

The only MFDB that actually delivers 16-bit are the 100 MP backs. I have not seen any raw file from the Hasselblad back, but Phase One developed a new 16-bit format for the IQ3-100MP that is actually 16 bit wide.

I have enclosed some RawDigger histograms for the X1D and the IQ3-100MP, it is very clear which is which.

It is hard to say about the harshness. But, Hasselblad is known to have very good rendition of colour in Phocus. Capture One is pretty aggressive in it's defaults with a very clear tendency to oversharpen, at least with the back and lenses I use. Like Jim, I use Lightroom. I actually use it for all my cameras but I use it with home built profiles, using Anders Torger's DCamProf.

Best regards
Erik



With the RN of the a7RII, the GFX, the X1D, or the H6D 50c, there is plenty of dither for a 14-bit ADC. Adding more bits does not improve the image, even at base ISO.

Here's a whole bunch of posts on dither:

http://blog.kasson.com/?s=dither

Camera raw files don't have Dmax. They have saturation and noise. Are you trying to get at dynamic range? I prefer photographic dynamic range for all purposes except technical ones. At base ISO, all the 51 MP cameras above have about the same PDR, and it exceeds the a7RII, but not by a lot.  Above ISO 640, they're all about the same.

I use Lr for normal raw developing, and Iridient Developer if I've got something I can't deal with in Lr.

I suspect that you don't like the C1 camera profiles you've used. Have you tried a lot of them? One fun thing about the GFX is you can use some Fuji film-look profiles:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-profiles-for-the-gfx-50s/

Jim
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Capture One rendition
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2017, 10:22:59 pm »

Hi,

This is a screen dump comparing rendition in Capture one and Lightroom.

Processing is near default. WB is on second brightest grey patch on ColorChecker. Exposure adjusted to L=51 on the fourth brightest grey patch in LR and to (RGB == 120) in C1.

LR used a colour profile I made with DCamProf. With C1 I used "Phase One P45+ Flash - Easy Grey".

Illumination was studio flash, around 5100K I would guess.

From left to right: P45+/Capture One, Sony A7rII/Lightroom, P45+/Lightroom.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:14:29 pm by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Rdmax

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77

I returned my X1D. Great image quality but too cumbersome. The software is just too difficult to use and not great for time sensitive projects.
Logged

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing

My Ole Buddy Erik!
You examples are exactly what I am talking about!  The left file, Capture One, is displaying the attributes that I do not like from my Sony RAW files.  When I try to "tame" the file, I loose the "snap" that I want!

OK, tonight I'll play with the aR7II RAW files handled by Lightroom, which I have not done.  Should have done that on my own without your "kick in the pants"!    Thank you!

Best,
Jack

photodan19

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10

Jack,

I'm a subscriber to the Lloyd Chambers publications.  You may want to reconsider subscribing, because (a) the price covers a whole year and will likely have coverage of some (not all perhaps but most probably at least some) new products that you might be interested in, and (2) you can probably ask Lloyd a specific question now and then as to what might be the key for you to decide to move on from the A7rII to the Hasselblad or to  the Fuji GFX.  Unless Jim Kasson ends up renting the Hasselblad and somehow being able to do the excellent very detailed tests he usually does, or unless you want to fork over a ton of money to rent both cameras and respective lenses, going to Lloyd might (not 100% sure, but possibly...) bring you closer to a decision and end up saving you some money in the end.

OTOH if a different software product or different settings / profiles solves your problem, as alluded in other posts, then that would be worth exploring.  I am sticking with Lightroom, due to it being convenient for a variety of my uses, and perhaps most of all due to ... inertia.

Dan

Logged

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing

"inertia"  Ahh yes, that "virus" that was implanted when my DNA was formulated!  Actually, not an issue I have.  I fast to discard for better once I prove it is better!

Reminds me of a line in a Geneses song:
"I know what I like, and I like what I know"

So why screw with what I already am comfortable with could be applicable.

Candidly Dan, I think I have ruled out the X1D, though it is about a pound lighter with the 30mm verse the Fuji with their 23 (which is actually the wide I would prefer as well).

Pretty much between sticking with the a7RII verse Fuji GFX and the 23. 
I already have the 17mm TS-E Canon, Metabones and the Zeiss 55mm 1.8,  85mm GM Sony.  Would be quite happy IF I could get an image that a looked that way I want.

Tonight will be the LR play night and see what I can stretch out of it. 

jb

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto

Hi Jack,

Quite a few photographers think that Adobe's recent colour profiles are a bit 'bland'.

You could try the profile I use: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Jack/Sony_ILCE-7RM2_DCDIPD_A7r2_2017-06-06.dcp

Here is info where to put them: http://www.xrite.com/service-support/where_dng_profiles_are_stored_in_the_computer

I used Lumariver Profile Designer at default settings, but I was quiet careful with setting up my target.

Best regards
Erik




My Ole Buddy Erik!
You examples are exactly what I am talking about!  The left file, Capture One, is displaying the attributes that I do not like from my Sony RAW files.  When I try to "tame" the file, I loose the "snap" that I want!

OK, tonight I'll play with the aR7II RAW files handled by Lightroom, which I have not done.  Should have done that on my own without your "kick in the pants"!    Thank you!

Best,
Jack
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 02:06:20 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6689
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Capture One rendition
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2017, 09:16:33 am »

Erik- easy grey is a product profile afaik -destined to keep neutrals neutral- - and indeed your image has gone grey.

Hi,

This is a screen dump comparing rendition in Capture one and Lightroom.

Processing is near default. WB is on second brightest grey patch on ColorChecker. Exposure adjusted to L=51 on the fourth brightest grey patch in LR and to (RGB == 120) in C1.

LR used a colour profile I made with DCamProf. With C1 I used "Phase One P45+ Flash - Easy Grey".

Illumination was studio flash, around 5100K I would guess.

From left to right: P45+/Capture One, Sony A7rII/Lightroom, P45+/Lightroom.

Best regards
Erik
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Capture One rendition
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2017, 10:55:02 am »

Hi Edmund,

I am not sure what the OP likes or dislikes about C1 processing.

The samples below are all P45+, Left LR/DCamProf, centre C1 and "Easy Grey", right C1 "Portrait Natural".

I have also added a Sony A7rII image.

Left one is LR/DCamProf, centre is Capture One, A7RM2 Generic, right one is LR/Adobe Standard.

Best regards
Erik



Thanks for your suggestion, anyways.
Erik- easy grey is a product profile afaik -destined to keep neutrals neutral- - and indeed your image has gone grey.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:15:22 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586

i have worked with and tested both systems and decided on the fuji although i really wanted to prefer the hasselblad.
i don't think there is much to discuss in terms of differences in files from the sensors....i did prefer he overall look and file quality, i really feel the fuji lenses are slightly better (maybe that is digital correction? i honestly don't care)
if size and weight are a big factor then the X1D is a no brainer, especially if landscapes are the main interest....
the fuji offers an overall better manual (i really enjoy having manual buttons and dials again) and bigger (attachments, lenses, adapters,...) system but is a much bigger and heavier camera. it also starts up much faster, has much less black out and still has better AF.
if someone wants to pay a subscription fee for a website, i don't think there is a right or wrong answer....to me (other then actually holding the camera and playing with it) the most important thing is file quality and there are so many free downloads available from each system that one should be able to make a decision based that.....the idea that either system has a major unknown flaw is just silly at this point, there are so many free reviews and opinions and most agree on the basic issues....if there is a major problem with a lens or body from either system, send them back and get a replacement....easy....
i feel that at this point in time some websites or reviewers are working hard to come up with issues to justify their subscription price....or just to stay relevant....

Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing

Schefz,

Thank your for your comments.  You understood what I was asking in my original post and responded.

I want to be sure I understand your thoughts and have a few questions.
First, you say "i did prefer he overall look and file quality".  Was the look you preferred of the X1D or the GFX?

Next, you feel the X1D is a "no brainer" for landscape work.  99% of what I love to capture is landscape BUT when I look at the price difference between just the X1D with the 30mm verse the GFX with the 23, the cost difference is about $2,900 more for the X1D with just a 30mm compared to the GFX with a 23mm (more of the FOV I prefer) and the weight for the GFX with the 23mm is only about 1 pound more.  I think saving just a pound is not worth $2,900.00 with a lens that does not have the FOV of the 23mm Fuji.

BUT image quality IS worth it IF there really is a difference that can't be recovered in software.
You state you feel the Fuji lenses are sharper than the X1D's.  That is interesting to note and another point for the FUJI.

Jack





pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586

Schefz,

Thank your for your comments.  You understood what I was asking in my original post and responded.

I want to be sure I understand your thoughts and have a few questions.
First, you say "i did prefer he overall look and file quality".  Was the look you preferred of the X1D or the GFX?

Next, you feel the X1D is a "no brainer" for landscape work.  99% of what I love to capture is landscape BUT when I look at the price difference between just the X1D with the 30mm verse the GFX with the 23, the cost difference is about $2,900 more for the X1D with just a 30mm compared to the GFX with a 23mm (more of the FOV I prefer) and the weight for the GFX with the 23mm is only about 1 pound more.  I think saving just a pound is not worth $2,900.00 with a lens that does not have the FOV of the 23mm Fuji.

BUT image quality IS worth it IF there really is a difference that can't be recovered in software.
You state you feel the Fuji lenses are sharper than the X1D's.  That is interesting to note and another point for the FUJI.

Jack
the first time i tested the X1D with the 45 and 90mm lenses head to head vs sony A7RII with GM 24-70, i could not really find a difference big enough in final file quality....i did play with the X1D later with a different 45 and the IQ was definitely better, so i am assuming that the first lens i tried wasn't a great copy.....the camera overall was just too slow for me and the size would be nice but is not a factor for me.....
i have had fuji cameras for decades (incl 645, 680 and 690) and have always found their lenses to be absolutely spectacular and the GFX lenses are no different....the 32-64 is as good as any prime at any point in the range and that alone is crazy to me....
i guess what i am saying is that the differences i did see when i started comparing the GFX files to the sony files must be down to the lenses more so then the sensor, since the sensors are the same in both X1D and GFX....maybe other people prefer hasselblad colors, i always used to shoot fuji film and preferred it to kodak (in general)....all this is of course a very personal opinion....
as for the handling of the X1D vs the GFX....i think the interface of the X1D is pretty amazing but i am just much faster with the manual dials of the GFX...i haven't had a camera with that many dials in a long time and i am really enjoying it (again)....
when i tested the X1D the software also had serious lag and issues but i am assuming most of those are resolved by now in firmware...

as for your personal situation in regard to cameras, one pound can make a big difference in the long run (on a hike?) but if you prefer a certain focal length over another, the answer is obvious....
the price difference is a very nice bonus....
the one thing that has really changed my life is the tilt/rotate attachment for the viewfinder....i can't even explain how awesome it is....
which brings me to my two probably biggest long term drawbacks of the X1D that firmware can't fix: fixed rear screen and no AF point joystick (or controller of some kind)...the first is just strange to me because price could not have been a consideration and size really should not have either...it is totally doable....and just a really, really nice thing to have....the second: i am just assuming that hasselblad got a little blind sighted by fuji and added the movable AF points (not on the touch screen) later in firmware because they could but the implementation is so  stupid that i can't see anyone using it....and selecting AF points on the touchscreen just isn't for me....
all that said, i think the X1D is a beautiful camera that can produce amazing results in amazing package....
if the kit includes a tripod, the difference in combined size and weight really isn't that much and then the price, better system and better functionality speak for the fuji IMO 
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing

Thanks for your reply.
I've set the Fuji GFX and the 23mm in the Amazon cart.
Time to click "Place Order" after reading your comments - JUST DID IT plus using Amazon credit card gets 5% back!

I've been pondering this for too many months - now I'll run my own test
but my test with be with the Fuji 23mm verse the Sony with the Canon 17TSE lens.
I'll use no movements on the Canon lens.  It's a sharp lens so I will be going after defining the value of the larger wells of the Fuji sensor and how Fuji handles the RAW write verse the Sony a7RII.

Camera will be here on Wednesday.
I leave for the North Carolina coast on Saturday for 5 days of shooting and testing.

Question:  Did you find an L-Plate/bracket you like?  I have read that because of the placement of the Fuji battery, finding an L-Plate that isn't a bear to handle changing batteries is a bit of a challenge.

Thanks again for sharing!
Jack

PS:  Any settings in the GFX menu that are essential to get right for landscape work?  I've started reading the manual just now, but want to get it up and running fast, unlike the mess I had with the Sony determining when it dropped my RAW files to only 12 bits.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 08:36:17 pm by Lust4Life »
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
Re: Fuji GFX 50c and Hassie X1D - anyone ACTUALLY tested each PERSONALLY?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2017, 05:53:48 pm »

i rarely use tripods, so i can't say anything about L plates,
i really enjoy not using the menu much at all....the dials and buttons can do pretty much everything....although i wish i was able to access SD card formatting faster....
the shadow recovery is so amazing that i am pretty much always shooting for the highlights now....the biggest difference to the A7RII is the ability of the GFX to retain color information and detail in dark (shadow) areas....
enjoy!
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 857
    • Shadows Dancing
Re: Fuji GFX 50c and Hassie X1D - anyone ACTUALLY tested each PERSONALLY?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2017, 07:57:34 pm »

Thanks for sharing your findings.

I head to the coast Saturday AM to spend 5 days camping and shooting identical scenes with the a7RII and the GFX.
I've had a little time to look at the menu structure and I like it!
But the key will be the image quality.

Will advise when I get results to share.
Jack

Gerd_Peters

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Fuji GFX 50c and Hassie X1D - anyone ACTUALLY tested each PERSONALLY?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2017, 06:22:16 am »

....although i wish i was able to access SD card formatting faster....

Press the trash button for 2-3 seconds, then press the rear dial once. The GFX immediately jumps directly into the format menu.

Greeting Gerd
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up