Fuji GFX 50c and Hassie X1D - anyone ACTUALLY tested each PERSONALLY?

[Lust4Life]

I'm not happy with the Sony a7RII compared to the Hassie HD5 50c WiFi that I had.
For me, the Sony's primary advantage is the dramatically lighter weight, and substantially lower cost but the image just isn't the same quality relative to what I am used to.  I have some neuromuscular issues and the lighter weight is a real advantage, that is until I get the RAW file into Lightroom or Capture One.

Thus, I would like to hear from folks that have PERSONALLY tested the GFX 50c and the X1D.

Landscape is the application with the occasional portrait.  Will be primarily wide angle use, but the Fugi wide is not out in general yet.

Jack

[voidshatter]

Will be primarily wide angle use

Diglloyd is surely one of the reviewers with access to both. It's worth a read.

Wide angle without shift capability is somewhat limiting - keystone correction in post-processing would result in loss of pixels, sharpness and angle of view. Neither GFX 50S nor X1D-50C provides wide enough lenses, not to mention that these lenses do not shift.

As for comparison, for 35mm format we have Voigtlander 10mm f/5.6 Hyper Wide Heliar, Canon 11-24mm f/4 L, Irix 11mm f/4, Canon 17mm f/4 TS-E, Nikon 19mm f/4 PC-E etc.

[Lust4Life]

Appreciate your response but to spend $100.00 to get the opinion of Diglloyd isn't in my realm of logical.
Thus I am hoping there are members here that will provide real world experience through LL.

As to the Sony a7RII with lenses - absolutely better arsenal of choices!  I'm using the Canon TS 17.  Issue is not with lenses but the Sony.  The RAW files produced are dramatically harsher and more color range compressed than I ever experienced with MFD:  Hassie, Leaf or Phase.

Yes, that is the state of the art for Full Frame, but Sony verse D5 50c is kind of like Sex.  Once you've had it, it is difficult to give it up!

[voidshatter]

Appreciate your response but to spend $100.00 to get the opinion of Diglloyd isn't in my realm of logical.

You are buying into a system at the order of magnitude of $100,000. Getting itchy/regretting afterwards, selling it and switching to another system can be as costly as thousands of dollars. For $100 you can get some in-depth points which may take you a while to realize even if you have access to both. It can help you make your judgements and minimize buyer's remorse. It can also help you defend your relief when attacked by others in the forum (directly or indirectly). If I was buying into an expensive system I would spend this $100 just for the peace of mind.

Given that your main usage will be landscape, I would assume that you might also need to do some long exposure from time to time. This comparison shows that the X1D does better for long exposure. Fuji on the other hand is still playing with inflated ISO numbers.

Since you are more of a subjective person, I'd say perhaps the Hasselblad system is more suitable for you, since it's meant to be more luxury. However, I wouldn't feel comfortable if I buy into an early batch with jumper wires. To be honest, I find the Sony design to be much more advanced and sophisticated.

[Paul2660]

For sure Fuji should have spent more time with Adobe on the raw conversion. If you do high ISO or long exposures you will benefit greatly using other raw converters with files from the GFX. 

Fuji's Liveview implementation could be better as it's easy to zoom past a 100% view and in LiveView you cannot just pinch the screen to zoom back down as you can in playback mode.

Paul Caldwell

[hubell]

I tested both the GFX and the X1D extensively. Depending upon how you prioritize your needs/wants, I think both cameras can be terrific choices. Both systems use the same sensor and have superb lenses. For the way I would use the system, photographing landscapes, the two most important priorities were (1) the system had to be as small, light and portable as possible and (2) the camera had to have a clean, simple interface that was not cluttered with deep menu systems containing a plethora of optional settings that would be irrelevant to me. As it turned out, the choice for me was easy. The X1D and its lenses are significantly smaller and lighter than the GFX and its lenses. The User Interface and the ergonomics of the X1D were exactly what I wanted. The GFX was not enjoyable to handle and operate. Too many buttons, too many options that clutter up the menus. It was, to me, everything that I don't like about Japanese cameras.
There are, of course, other differences between the two cameras that may be very important to you. The GFX uses a focal plane shutter and there are adapters that allow you to use non-native lenses. You can use Hasselblad HC lenses with the X1D, but that's it, though I should add that it's nice to have tele lenses like  the HC 210 and 300 to fill in the system for now. The use of non-native lenses was not important to me and the GFX lenses are so good that I couldn't imagine not using them if I had bought the GFX. The GFX has a tilting LCD. The implementation of manual focus in live view with the X1D is much better than with the GFX. The GFX firmware is more mature. Hasselblad has made significant advances with the X1D firmware since it was introduced early this year. They are not done. There are still some missing features. However, by all accounts, it is stable at this point. Fuji is releasing lenses at a faster clip than Hasselblad. There are 5 GFX lenses now: the 32-63 zoom, the 23, the 63, the 110 and the 120 Macro. Hasselblad has a 30, a 45 and a 90. A 120 Macro will be released by year end, and a 22, a 65 and a 35-75 zoom by early 2018.
I would strongly suggest that you demo or rent each system for an afternoon and try them/hike with them.

[Lust4Life]

Hubbell, First, thank you for your informative post.  Like you, 98% of my work is landscape and the menu on the Sony aR7II drives me nuts with too many iterations of how they want me to shoot, verse how I want to shoot.  Definitely preferred the H5D menu.  When I first got the Sony camera I spent hour trying to turn off so many of their defaults, some of which I was not able to turn off as I recall.

As I read your post, I feel you are finding the ease of use and methodology of the X1D in tune with yourself, and it is definitely in tune with me with the elements you described.  But, did you actually SEE any difference between the resultant RAW and converted files? 

One concern I have is Hassie saving a 16 bit verse Fuji's 14.  I do a lot of cloud work and when I work to bring out the drama in the scene with the Sony, which is a 14 bit, I have to be VERY careful to not get banding/signs of compression that I never had with my H5D 50 images.  If no resultant image file difference was noted, then one has to define if the substantial cost increase of the X1D is worth it.

As a prior poster missed, I think, is that few of us can extract a living out of Landscapes!  But it is and always has been my passion.

Jack

[Christopher]

I will write more on both when I have the time, but just for now I can say the following. The GFX files are as robust as the Phase One files from the 50Mp back. Can't comment on the h5/6d 50, but in my test the X1D have no benefited from 16bit. (Could be as they aren't or let's say the sensor can't handle 16bit....)


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[hcubell]

As I read your post, I feel you are finding the ease of use and methodology of the X1D in tune with yourself, and it is definitely in tune with me with the elements you described.  But, did you actually SEE any difference between the resultant RAW and converted files? 


Jack

I am not sure I understand the comparison you are referring to. Between the GFX and the X1D files after running them through a raw converter and printing them? I never had anything that I was motivated to print. However, I did work on them in LR and/or Phocus. As I said, the differences in sharpness in the files  between the two systems were not at all significant to me. If you have to crank the raws to 200% or 300% to start see some subtle differences, who cares. They are both excellent. However, I do prefer the general color and tonal rendering that I get with the Hasselblad files. I find its much easier to achieve subtleties. Fuji is very enamored of its Fuji film simulations, and I don't like that look. To me, it shrieks. But that's personal taste.

[Jim Kasson]

I'm not happy with the Sony a7RII compared to the Hassie HD5 50c WiFi that I had.
For me, the Sony's primary advantage is the dramatically lighter weight, and substantially lower cost but the image just isn't the same quality relative to what I am used to.  I have some neuromuscular issues and the lighter weight is a real advantage, that is until I get the RAW file into Lightroom or Capture One.

Thus, I would like to hear from folks that have PERSONALLY tested the GFX 50c and the X1D.

Landscape is the application with the occasional portrait.  Will be primarily wide angle use, but the Fuji wide is not out in general yet.

I'm not quite sure how to parse your query. Are you looking for someone who has personal experience with both cameras, or people who have experience with each camera? If the latter, I can help. I have been testing the GFX for on and off for about four months and have posted about 70 reports. You can start here if you're interested:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fujifilm-gfx-50s-review/

I can't help you if you want someone who's tested both, since I have not used the X1D. I would consider renting it, but I see several problems.

The first is lens selection. I'd like to run tests with native lenses of similar focal length, but with the GFX having 23, 63, 32-64, 110 and 120, and the X1D having 30,45, and 90, that's not possible. I could set the 32-64 to 45 and test against the Hassy 45, but zoom versus prime seems unfair. I could use the Otus 85 on the GFX and test against the 90 on the 1D, but do enough people want to see that to make it worth my trouble? I could use HC lenses on both cameras but my experiences with HC lenses on the GFX tells me that they don't resolve at high contrast to the level the sensor does.

The second is time and cost. I know some people can -- or think they can -- get the measure of a camera in a week. It usually takes me about a month. Renting an X1D and three lenses for that length of time would cost about $3K. That's a pretty big outlay to find out about a camera I'm not going to use. I'd consider it only if I could figure a way around problem one, and if there were a lot of interest.

I might rent the X1D for a week to get a handle on one specific question: what difference do the small microlenses on the GFX make?

I'll write another post with some thoughts about the GFX.

Jim

[Jim Kasson]

I'm not happy with the Sony a7RII compared to the Hassie HD5 50c WiFi that I had.
For me, the Sony's primary advantage is the dramatically lighter weight, and substantially lower cost but the image just isn't the same quality relative to what I am used to.  I have some neuromuscular issues and the lighter weight is a real advantage, that is until I get the RAW file into Lightroom or Capture One.

Thus, I would like to hear from folks that have PERSONALLY tested the GFX 50c and the X1D.

Landscape is the application with the occasional portrait.  Will be primarily wide angle use, but the Fuji wide is not out in general yet.

I'm now going to give you a short summary of some of my GFX findings assuming that you don't require someone who has used both cameras. Since you and I both have a7RIIs, I'll compare and contrast. I have been using the 23/4 for about a month, and had no difficulty finding one, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say it's not out in general.

The big difference you're going to see with the GFX versus your a7RII is IQ with native lenses. I have not tested the 32-64, but the 23, 110, and 120 are all superlative lenses -- well beyond any equivalent FE lens that I know of that you can get from Sony or Zeiss. The 63 is merely very good. With Otus lenses on both cameras (the 55 on the a7RII and the 85 on the GFX), the differences are smaller. You'll have to make prints of larger than 15 inches high for the GFX advantages to start to plainly show.

You may have trouble manually focusing the GFX. Others have, and have given up on the camera. I had trouble too, at first. I have come up with a technique that works quite well -- so well that I can now focus the GFX more accurately and consistently than the a7RII.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/manually-focusing-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s/

I found the GFX UI confusing at first, but now understand and like it. With the a7RII, when I figured something out  it was "why the blankety-blank does the camera work this way?" With the GFX, it was almost always "why don't all cameras do it like this?" After using the a9 and the GFX, it is painful for me to use the a7RII UI now, although I know it well.

You're going to be doing landscapes, so you probably don't care about AF, but there are some quirks that need working around with the GFX and AF.

I'll be happy to answer questions.

Jim

[hcubell]

Since you are more of a subjective person, I'd say perhaps the Hasselblad system is more suitable for you, since it's meant to be more luxury. However, I wouldn't feel comfortable if I buy into an early batch with jumper wires. To be honest, I find the Sony design to be much more advanced and sophisticated.

Well, at least you aren't subtle when you insult someone.

[Lust4Life]

Jim - Regarding just your beginning statement in your first post.

I don't think I could have made it any clearer regarding what I am seeking:
" I would like to hear from folks that have PERSONALLY tested the GFX 50c and the X1D."

The operative word is the use of "and" instead of "either"

Unfortunately, there is no Hasselblad or Fuji dealer that I have found here in North Carolina or rental shop offering them.
Thus, I using LL for what one of it's intended purposes is - learn from others.

Now, it is great that we both have the a7RII as a base point - a comparison to that and your Fuji is quite valuable to me.
Candidly, the cost differential between the X1D and the GFX is in my mind, and pocketbook, very substantial.  At this moment, I'm leaning to keeping the money in my pocket and go with the GFX, but I feel I made a mistake with the a7RII and do not wish to jump too fast into the Fuji.

OK, you mention the 23mm Fuji - I have been watching B&H for over 45 days and they show "Coming Soon", and I have been on their "Alert" list for when it shows up.  Until it shows, I will not bring a GFX in for testing.

Your paragraph about the user interface - YES!  I hate the Sony's.  As I said above, I spent hours turning off features that Sony felt I had to abide by.  I also hate that they do not have an option to turn off and and all menu options that drop the camera from 14 bit to 12 bit!! 

Jim - what  has disturbed me the most is the harshness of the RAW files the a7RII generates.  The work it takes in software to try to tame this attribute is at times not possible to overcome.  Now, I am contrasting to the smooth bit ramps in color and tonal range I am used to from the H5D.  But I have had several situation where I could not get an acceptable end image out of the Sony that I know I could have pulled out of a H5D file!  Lost opportunities to say the least.

I appreciate your comments and would ask can you address my last paragraph relative to the GFX?

Jack

[Jim Kasson]

Jim - Regarding just your beginning statement in your first post.

I don't think I could have made it any clearer regarding what I am seeking:
" I would like to hear from folks that have PERSONALLY tested the GFX 50c and the X1D."

The operative word is the use of "and" instead of "either"

There is no Hasselblad or Fuji dealer that I have found here in North Carolina or rental shop offering them.
Thus, I using LL for what one of [its] intended purposes is - learn from others.

I have a long -- albeit temporally distant -- relationship with George Boole. It was not clear to me that you meant the strict use of the word and.

I am sorry to have wasted your time.

I hope you find what you are looking for. There's always LensRentals.

Jim

[Lust4Life]

Jim - I have a degenerative neuromuscular disease.  I had just started my reply to your post when the damn hand decided to post just the beginning of my thoughts.

Please forgive and read the finished post. 
Again, because of the tremors and other attributes I now have, the simpler the menu and the larger the control buttons/wheels the better for me!

You did not waste my time.

Jack

PS:  I am reading your review on your blog now.
PPS:  Dang, I just checked Adorama - they have one in stock!  A 23mm. 

[Jim Kasson]

Jim - I have a degenerative neuromuscular disease.  I had just started my reply to your post when the damn hand decided to post just the beginning of my thoughts.

Please forgive and read the finished post. 
Again, because of the tremors and other attributes I now have, the simpler the menu and the larger the control buttons/wheels the better for me!

You did not waste my time/

PS:  I am reading your review on your blog now.

Thanks for the augmented post. I'll get to that in another response. About your hand. I sympathize, and have more empathy than I would have had a few years ago before I had a brain tumor removed and ended up with diminished use of my left leg.

Jim

[Lust4Life]

Jim, yes, add the tremors to all the other little "joy killing" attributes and one could get annoyed.
Then I think of the people I have know and went to their funeral that died at 1/2 of my 70 years of life, and I get over my self pity real fast!

Jack

[Jim Kasson]

Now, it is great that we both have the a7RII as a base point - a comparison to that and your Fuji is quite valuable to me.
Candidly, the cost differential between the X1D and the GFX is in my mind, and pocketbook, very substantial.  At this moment, I'm leaning to keeping the money in my pocket and go with the GFX, but I feel I made a mistake with the a7RII and do not wish to jump too fast into the Fuji.

OK, you mention the 23mm Fuji - I have been watching B&H for over 45 days and they show "Coming Soon", and I have been on their "Alert" list for when it shows up.  Until it shows, I will not bring a GFX in for testing.

Your paragraph about the user interface - YES!  I hate the Sony's.  As I said above, I spent hours turning off features that Sony felt I had to abide by.  I also hate that they do not have an option to turn off and and all menu options that drop the camera from 14 bit to 12 bit!! 

Jim - what has disturbed me the most is the harshness of the RAW files the a7RII generates.  The work it takes in software to try to tame this attribute is at times not possible to overcome.  Now, I am contrasting to the smooth bit ramps in color and tonal range I am used to from the H5D.  But I have had several situations where I could not get an acceptable end image out of the Sony that I know I could have pulled out of an H5D file!  Lost opportunities to say the least.

I don't know what you mean by harshness. In photography in general, that generally means too much contrast, inky shadows, clipped highlights, and the like. a7RII raw files are quite linear and have almost, but not quite, the GFX PDR at base ISO, and fully match it above ISO 640 where the enhanced conversion gain kicks in on the a7RII.

Are you using the same raw converter on both cameras, or are you using Phocus on the Hassie? If so, that could be the difference.

tell me more about what you mean by harshness, and we'll take it from there.

Jim

[Jim Kasson]

Jim, yes, add the tremors to all the other little "joy killing" attributes and one could get annoyed.
Then I think of the people I have know and went to their funeral that died at 1/2 of my 70 years of life, and I get over my self pity real fast!

Yep. I spent about three months on Keppra after my operation. Boy, did I hate that drug. I hope you've got stuff that has fewer side effects.

Jim

[Lust4Life]

Jim, best described as seen by my eye is:
Compressed looking color ramps, particularly in the green ramp.
Contrast is difficult to "back down" without loosing all of the "snap" in the global image area.
Yes to inky/muddled shadows.
High lights hold up very well, so no complaint there.

For the Hassie I used Phocus and for the Sony I use Capture One.

To give you a rough 72pi jpeg look I'll try to post here the color and the resultant B&W files.