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Author Topic: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development  (Read 929363 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #320 on: August 24, 2017, 01:36:46 am »

5D2 was all sensor with poor frame rate, poor AF, single card, etc. It was the high-resolution body of its time - Nikon was stuck at 12MP. Good for non-action photography and not much else. The 5D3 added much better AF and frame rate and the sensor was no longer top-of-the-line. It was a general photographer's camera, not a studio/landscape body. The D800e had taken the 5D2's mantle, with 36MP but slow frame rate and mediocre AF. Canon didn't release a true successor - prioritising high resolution, without regard for frame rate or other action-related factors - until the 5Ds.

I don't agree, Canon put their best sensor in the 5DIII, the fact that it was behind the competition is a different issue.

The requirements for non action photography did not evolve significantly between the time the 5D2 was released and the 5D3 was released. In other words the 5D3 was at least as good as the 5D2 for non action subjects. The fact that it could do more things thanks to a better AF, did not change its positioning as a body able, to some extend and to the best of Canon's abilities, to handle landscape.

I also don't agree that the D800's AF was poor. It was at least as good as the AF of the 5D3, using the same module as the D4, which Canon wasn't doing (the 5DIV is the first mid range Canon DSLR to use the same AF as their flagship).

I never said the D850 wouldn't have as much DR at base ISO. I said there may not be an improvement at base ISO. Big difference. And that, if they had to choose between high DR at base ISO and keeping up with other action bodies at ISO 1600-6400, it would make more sense to prioritise the latter.

Staying at the same level as the D810 would put it equal to MF sensors. Are you saying that these aren't suitable for landscape work or that this is a compromise?

It's not a successor because it's obviously aimed at a different subset of photographers. The D810 was not an action camera. It prioritised resolution and base-ISO DR, at the expense of almost everything else. Even the D750 outperforms it when shooting action or at mid-high ISO. The D850, on the other hand, does everything the 5D4, D750 and D500 do, and almost everything the D5 does, but better.

I have used extensively my D810 with my 400mm f2.8 on various moving subjects and it is doing a great job, not as good as a D5 obviously, but great in absolute terms. Again, you are trying to present a biased version of reality to try to make reality fit in your model...

There may be a successor to the D810 in the works, but the D850 is not it. It's much more like a beefed-up D750, or a D5 that traded some speed for double the resolution, than a replacement studio/landscape body designed for the highest possible resolution. Look at the specs, not the name.

Again, this is just your view of things that isn't share by Nikon nor by a majority of the commentators reporting about the D850 announcement over the web. Seeing how you have to bend facts to fit into your mold, I don't believe that you have a correct view of things.

My view is that the D850 is a successor of the D810, but Nikon may release a new D5x or a D900 that expands their range towards even higher levels of resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 02:35:32 am by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #321 on: August 24, 2017, 03:13:55 am »

I don't agree, Canon put their best sensor in the 5DIII, the fact that it was behind the competition is a different issue.

The requirements for non action photography did not evolve significantly between the time the 5D2 was released and the 5D3 was released. In other words the 5D3 was at least as good as the 5D2 for non action subjects. The fact that it could do more things thanks to a better AF, did not change its positioning as a body able, to some extend and to the best of Canon's abilities, to handle landscape.

Sony put its best AF system of the time into the A7r2. That makes it an action camera. At the time, the D4s and 1Dx existed

Nikon put its highest-resolution sensor into the D700. That makes it a landscape/studio camera. At the time, the 1Ds3 existed and the 5D2 and A900 were a few months away.

Of course not. Sony just didn't have an action camera in 2015. Canon didn't have a studio camera in 2012. Nikon didn't have one in 2018.

And the standard changed between the 5D2 and 5D3. The D800e was launched. The standard went from 24MP to 36MP. Otherwise so many non-action photographers wouldn't have abandoned Canon during that time. But they did - you can see it in the user-segmented market share.

Quote
I also don't agree that the D800's AF was poor. It was at least as good as the AF of the 5D3, using the same module as the D4, which Canon wasn't doing (the 5DIV is the first mid range Canon DSLR to use the same AF as their flagship).

Same module as the D4. That did not mean D4 performance. The D750 outshoots it AF-wise. Together with the 4fps frame rate, the D800 was not an action camera. The D850 is.

Quote
Staying at the same level as the D810 would put it equal to MF sensors. Are you saying that these aren't suitable for landscape work or that this is a compromise?

MF sensors of years ago. Times and standards change. 8 years ago, the 21MP 5D2 and 24MP D3x were the top tier of full-frame image quality. 21MP MF bodies were commonplace. These days, any full-frame body can outshoot them.

So, yes, it is a compromise. Sony and Canon put out 42MP and 50MP sensors two years ago. Any replacement will undoubtedly have higher resolution and (in the case of Canon) better DR. Both companies have demonstrated it. If Sony can build a 46MP, 9fps sensor for Nikon, it can build a 70MP, 5fps sensor for itself, for a no-holds-barred non-action body. The fact that Nikon went with that compromise - willingly or unwillingly - isn't a bad thing. It just means that this isn't the 5D2/D800e/A7r2 of 2017 - it's a general-purpose and action camera, not a resolution specialist.

Quote
I have used extensively my D810 with my 400mm f2.8 on various moving subjects and it is doing a great job, not as good as a D5 obviously, but great in absolute terms. Again, you are trying to present a biased version of reality to try to make reality fit in your model...

Again, this is just your view of things that isn't share by Nikon nor by a majority of the commentators reporting about the D850 announcement over the web. Seeing how you have to bend facts to fit into your mold, I don't believe that you have a correct view of things.

My view is that the D850 is a successor of the D810, but Nikon may release a new D5x or a D900 that expands their range towards even higher levels of resolution.

Who's bending facts now? You've gone on nothing but the name and said that the D850 is the direct successor to the D810, when the specs (relative to the standard of the day) don't support it, and even Nikon itself hasn't said that it is.

Take a camera with exactly the same specs and functions and put a D760 label on it. Now which camera's successor does it look like? What about a D900 label? Does it still look like a D810 successor?

The label doesn't make the camera. The features do.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #322 on: August 24, 2017, 03:19:56 am »

May I suggest that we re-focus on facts related to the new camera and keep our view of its positioning for ourselves? I don't have the impression that anything new has been added to the discussion in the last 20-30 posts frankly speaking.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 04:19:01 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #323 on: August 24, 2017, 05:40:32 am »

I ordered a copy of the Nikon D850 and a couple of batteries. I would like to order the Nikon es-2 slide copier, which they mention for the Nikon D850, but I only see the Nikon es-1 slide copier for sale. Anyone know about this? Does the Es-1 work for the D850?
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #324 on: August 24, 2017, 06:23:06 am »

Well, there it is, 3500 RRP and you can put your money down and get it September.

So was the speculation here worth the ink you didn't use? Is it ever? The sweat, the research, the rising temperatures? So that's what it means to be a fanboy, then; hey ho.

;-)

Rob C

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #325 on: August 24, 2017, 06:32:17 am »

So was the speculation here worth the ink you didn't use? Is it ever? The sweat, the research, the rising temperatures? So that's what it means to be a fanboy, then; hey ho.

Yes, it was worth it a thousand times! :)

We have learned so much in the process.

Too bad we will have to wait another 2 long years to get something similar from Canon. It feels a bit like those eclipses doesn't it?  :D

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #326 on: August 24, 2017, 06:57:24 am »

The 5D5 won't be due for another 2 years or so. Even so, it would be a huge jump from the 5D4 just to match it, let alone surpass it by 2 years' worth of development.

It's also likely that Nikon will release a D750 successor with capabilities similar to the 5D4, but undercutting the price by USD1000 or more.

But just because the 5D4 isn't due for replacement doesn't mean Canon won't bring in a higher line of general-purpose body - say, 3D - with similar capabilities to the D850. That would leave the 5D line to compete with the D750 and successors and A7 and successors, the 5Ds line to compete with the ultra-high resolution bodies, the 3D to compete with the D850 (and whatever medium-high resolution, medium-high frame rate and top-tier AF body Sony brings out) and the 1Dx line to compete with the D5 and A9. I don't know if Canon will do this, but, if they don't, it will be very hard for them to compete with both the D850 and an ultra-high-resolution Sony body , particularly given the price of the D850.

It's probably more likely that Sony releases a competitive camera than Canon. We already know they have the capability (they built the Nikon sensor, so can certainly do at least as well for their own camera) and their existing A9 already has the data bandwidth. They're also a far less conservative company less likely to be so stubborn as to ignore the competition. Just release the A9 in three different versions - 24MP/20fps, 48MP/10fps and 72MP/6fps - and be done with it.

I hope they do it. I want an ultra-high-resolution landscape body and a wildlife/action body with good cropability that can share the same lenses.

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kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #327 on: August 24, 2017, 08:55:32 am »

If i understand correctly Nikon has made Liveview its EVF. ( focus peaking , silent shutter etc)
What i do not understand is that they ( still) do not make a dedicated Loop that is attached with magnets.
Now I have to start making my own again.
I always end up with a camera that needs gaffa tape to work in a proper way.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #328 on: August 24, 2017, 09:03:56 am »

If i understand correctly Nikon has made Liveview its EVF. ( focus peaking , silent shutter etc)
What i do not understand is that they ( still) do not make a dedicated Loop that is attached with magnets.
Now I have to start making my own again.
I always end up with a camera that needs gaffa tape to work in a proper way.

You have my sympathy. I just use electrical tape over the names and numbers and so nobody breaks down in tears of mirth when I appear in public with my camera.

They never look at the photographs anyway, so my little, shameful secret stays mine. Cool! Absolutely no pressure to buy another product that wouldn't make the slightest difference to my abilities or lack of 'em!

Rob

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #329 on: August 24, 2017, 09:22:09 am »

May I suggest that we re-focus on facts related to the new camera and keep our view of its positioning for ourselves?

I was wondering. We'll soon be able to derive the actual information from Raw files ourselves, but aren't Back-Side Illuminated (BSI) sensors better in Quantum Efficiency (QE) but somewhat worse in Dynamic Range (DR), compared to front side illuminated CMOS devices?

In all leaked information, there seems to be no specific mention of DR. Maybe that means that it's the same as earlier models, but with the change to BSI, one would expect more information about that aspect (similar/different/better/worse).

Cheers,
Bart
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #330 on: August 24, 2017, 09:52:54 am »

I was wondering. We'll soon be able to derive the actual information from Raw files ourselves, but aren't Back-Side Illuminated (BSI) sensors better in Quantum Efficiency (QE) but somewhat worse in Dynamic Range (DR), compared to front side illuminated CMOS devices?

In all leaked information, there seems to be no specific mention of DR. Maybe that means that it's the same as earlier models, but with the change to BSI, one would expect more information about that aspect (similar/different/better/worse).

We'll know soon enough. To my eyes the ISO 64 full size jpg samples available on the Japan Nikon side seem incredibly clean.

DPreview first initial feedback mention that ISO64 seems very clean too.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #331 on: August 24, 2017, 10:02:18 am »

I wouldn't rely on promotional JPEGs for any sort of analysis.

Not only would they have gone through noise reduction, but they would also have been hand-picked to show the strengths of the camera, not its limitations.

For instance, Canon promotional shots in the past would never have revealed the banding.

Wait for the PDR and DxO sensor analyses for the raw data.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #332 on: August 24, 2017, 10:28:53 am »

Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #333 on: August 24, 2017, 10:51:57 am »

Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard


Poor memory prevents me remembering the guilty party, but it has happened in the past.

Rob

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #334 on: August 24, 2017, 10:59:21 am »

If the D850 is a good as the specs. This will do for me nicely and makes me happier that I did not hang on to the X1D and the GFX. I now can use all my Nikon glass and at a bargain price compared to MF.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #335 on: August 24, 2017, 11:23:29 am »

Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard

Not fake. Just well-chosen, and with in-camera NR set to hide the noise. A noise-free JPEG at base ISO doesn't mean anything - any camera can do it. Just set it up in good lighting, expose to the right (ensuring that the chosen scene falls well within the camera's DR) and let NR handle whatever little noise is left. A perfect image, and it tells you about as much about the sensor's capabilities as tracking a tortoise tells you about the AF.

If you want to assess image quality, you need to see RAWs, preferably shot in difficult and high-contrast lighting conditions.
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Christopher

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #336 on: August 24, 2017, 11:43:07 am »

I think the d850 is a great camera and will sell very well. What I headed from friends around me it was orders quite often to day. Much better more often compared to other camera releases.

For me it's just not the right tool. I prefer the GFX and P1, for the few times I need something else renting is just the smarter solution.


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Jim Kasson

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #337 on: August 24, 2017, 12:10:14 pm »

I just noticed that the D850 grip uses the D4/D5 battery. That's good for me; one less set of batteries to buy.

Jim

sbay

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #338 on: August 24, 2017, 12:10:51 pm »

We'll know soon enough. To my eyes the ISO 64 full size jpg samples available on the Japan Nikon side seem incredibly clean.

How do they compare to jpegs out of the D810?

kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #339 on: August 24, 2017, 01:34:10 pm »

question,

if i buy a perpetual version of Lightroom will it cover the d850?
or will it only be covered in the CS version.
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