Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 01:19:52 AM

Title: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 01:19:52 AM
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/announcement-d850-dslr.page

After all this time, all of this waiting and expectation, what do we get? We get an announcement announcing the development of the Nikon D850, with no details.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/about-nikon/press-room/press-release/j47iarx5/Development-Of-Digital-SLR-Camera-Nikon-D850.html

Personally, I am disappointed once again. We don't even get a timeline, price, or details, just the news that the D850 is the successor to the D810. Well, duh, we knew that, just not what the name would be! Talk about a "Nothing-Burger."

I am looking to see if the Sony A9R (when it arrives) will be what we are looking for, but I have to say, this Nikon announcement was one more little shock from a company I used to depend upon.

Hopefully more details will be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: lhodaniel on July 25, 2017, 01:33:45 AM
Yep. Nikon is looking very lame on this. It's kinda like NASA holding a press conference to say they are working on Warp Drive. I'm beginning to wonder if they'll make 101 or 102.

Lloyd
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 25, 2017, 02:02:53 AM
Last time they did this it took about 4 months to get cameras in the hands of photographers.

Other brands announce and ship cameras 5 months later... ;)

Both are just as lame.

We all knew it was coming, we all knew Nikon had to say something today. They did in accordance to their own annoucement ethics. Like it or not.

What will matter in the end is whether they pull a 6DII on us or deliver a camera with actual value. Today nobody knows.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 25, 2017, 09:10:32 AM
Last time they did this it took about 4 months to get cameras in the hands of photographers.

Other brands announce and ship cameras 5 months later... ;)

Both are just as lame.

We all knew it was coming, we all knew Nikon had to say something today. They did in accordance to their own annoucement ethics. Like it or not.

What will matter in the end is whether they pull a 6DII on us or deliver a camera with actual value. Today nobody knows.

Cheers,
Bernard

The big difference is at least we know the specs of the camera for those 5 months and can make purchase decisions if the specs don't meet the requirements.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on July 25, 2017, 09:25:20 AM
As i understand it will be the second and last camera this year...
so no mirrorless... that in itself is disappointing...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 10:07:31 AM
On the other hand, the D810 was such a milestone, such a step-up from what was available at its time, that it has some pretty big shoes to fill.

What other camera is still an industry benchmark ... 3 years after production?
(Most are yesterday's news within 2 months of production.)

Given that Nikon put the D500 and the D5 on the gound, last year, I would imagine Nikon is aiming "very high" in what the D850 is going to be able to do.
So, in the end, my belief is that today's "disappointment" is going to become tomorrow's stampede to get one, the moment it's finally announced.

As for mirrorless, I didn't expect a serious offering of one of these until 2018.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on July 25, 2017, 10:20:10 AM
On the other hand, the D810 was such a milestone, such a step-up from what was available at its time

refresh the public what was the step up exactly ? some new sensor ? unheard fps ? AF beating single digits series ? I can only remember that it improved engineering DR ~0.4 EV @ it's base ISO vs other existing 36mp cameras ... but that's it about it...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 25, 2017, 10:32:09 AM

What other camera is still an industry benchmark ... 3 years after production?
(Most are yesterday's news within 2 months of production.)


Given that Nikon put the D500 and the D5 on the gound, last year, I would imagine Nikon is aiming "very high" in what the D850 is going to be able to do.
So, in the end, my belief is that today's "disappointment" is going to become tomorrow's stampede to get one, the moment it's finally announced.

As for mirrorless, I didn't expect a serious offering of one of these until 2018.

Canon 1DSMKII - 2004 (high res Studio/landscape camera of the time)
Canon 5D - 2005 (1st affordable FF DSLR)
Canon 5DMKII - 2008 (1st good enough for video)

More recently, the Canon 5DS/R series, with 50 mpxl.

Those were milestones at the time, and lasted very well in the market in subsequent years.

To me, the D850 makes sense, after (as you say) last year's introduction of the "action and sports" PJ cameras. I am curious to see if it will feature Sony's 42 mpxl sensor from the A7 series.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
refresh the public what was the step up exactly ? some new sensor ? unheard fps ? AF beating single digits series ? I can only remember that it improved engineering DR ~0.4 EV @ it's base ISO vs other existing 36mp cameras ... but that's it about it...

Your memory indeed needs refreshment, seeing as there was no 36mp sensor at that time ... until the D810 came out.

Canon sensors were in the teens and twentys back then ... and Sony wasn't considered as much at that point.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on July 25, 2017, 10:33:19 AM
Last time they did this it took about 4 months to get cameras in the hands of photographers.

Other brands announce and ship cameras 5 months later... ;)
And yet others conceal all information about a new product until it is almost ready to ship (Apple, Canon?), which some people misinterpret as "shipping earlier" while in fact it is just "announcing later", because with or with or without such press releases, the product will be ready to ship at the same date.

I continue to favor transparency, with information about products in development given as soon as possible.

What is lame here is that Nikon surely knows a lot more than it is telling. Core hardware features are probably already decided, in particular for components that involve working with outside partners, like the sensor. The goal seems to be to gather email addresses for future marketing use.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Your memory indeed needs refreshment, seeing as there was no 36mp sensor at that time ... until the D810 came out.

Canon sensors were in the teens and twentys back then ... and Sony wasn't considered as much at that point.

The Nikon D800 had 36 Mpx prior to the D800E and the D810.

My feeling is that we deserve better treatment that Nikon is providing at this point, especially since we have waited and waited.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 10:44:38 AM
The Nikon D800 had 36 Mpx prior to the D800E and the D810.

My feeling is that we deserve better treatment that Nikon is providing at this point, especially since we have waited and waited.

Noted. The D800 was the rough draft; the D810 the finalized version.

I disagree with the last part. 3 years isn't that long of a wait for a new epoch camera.

Compare that to a 6 year wait for the Canon D610 II, only to be old and lame at birth ... now that is mistreatment of its customer base (by Canon).

At least when Nikon made its customers wait 7 years, between the D300 and the D500, the D500 was an instant success and revolutionary over other APS-Cs, being the first of such to actually surpass pro cameras in many respects. It also won multiple awards and made many users of other systems switch to Nikon, to get the most affordable pro-level option ever seen in an APS-C body.

Fear not, Nikon won't make its users wait anywhere near as long for the D850 ... and will not come in under-powered, but will be one helluva camera.

I am 100% sure of this.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 10:52:49 AM
I disagree with the last part. 3 years isn't that long of a wait for a new epoch camera.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but to those of us moving from the D3x to the D800/E, the shift was very much worth it.

D800E
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 10:55:57 AM
Hindsight is always 20/20, but to those of us moving from the D3x to the D800/E, the shift was very much worth it.
D800E

Well, hindsight behavior patterns help us establish expectations. As such, the D850 being announced 3 years after the D810 is right on (maybe just a little bit passed) schedule.

Agree that sometimes a little extra wait is worth it ... nice image :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on July 25, 2017, 11:56:54 AM
Your memory indeed needs refreshment, seeing as there was no 36mp sensor at that time ... until the D810 came out.

Canon sensors were in the teens and twentys back then ... and Sony wasn't considered as much at that point.

ahaha... dear, you are totally delusional ... people already mentioned to you that D800 was in 2012 and even ""wasn't considered as much" A7R was released already, in 2013... it seems that you don't know the tools of your trade at all  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on July 25, 2017, 11:58:03 AM
Noted.
so what other than ~-0.4EV more of engineering DR at base ISO D810 delivered that was so mile-stonish ? other than being simply a refinement of the D800-series ?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on July 25, 2017, 12:04:09 PM
Hindsight is always 20/20, but to those of us moving from the D3x to the D800/E, the shift was very much worth it.

~24mp to ~36mp for Nikon
~21mp to ~50mp for Canon

those are milestones

but D800* to D810*... just iteration
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 12:26:49 PM
~24mp to ~36mp for Nikon
~21mp to ~50mp for Canon

those are milestones

but D800* to D810*... just iteration

Just ignorance speaking, IMO.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on July 25, 2017, 12:48:07 PM
I still find myself amused that my D200 gets used before I bother taking out the D700. (10mp and 12mp respectively, +or-.)

Some of you chaps must be shooting incredibly important photographs!

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 01:13:57 PM
ahaha... dear, you are totally delusional ...

Um, I don't think being off by a year qualifies as 'delusional.'

More like a simple error/omission. Of course, you've never made one of those, being as smart as you are ::)



and even ""wasn't considered as much" A7R was released already, in 2013...

The D800 was available in March 2012
The A7r was available in November of 2013.

This means, from March 2012, until November of 2013, the Nikon D800 was the only 36mp DSLR on the block.

The A7r came later, and was just a 'me too' version of the D800.

Nikon's response was the D810, with no AA filter, and an expanded Base ISO.

The 42 mp A7r II wasn't announced until June 2015, one year after the D810, and more than 3 years after the D800.

And, even today, in 2017, the A7r II can't match the D810's base ISO ability.


it seems that you don't know the tools of your trade at all  ;D

Re-read that back to yourself.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 25, 2017, 01:20:07 PM
Really guys...its come down to this. My dad can beat your dad with one hand tied behind his back.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 01:38:07 PM
Really guys...its come down to this. My dad can beat your dad with one hand tied behind his back.

Actually, no.

The discussion was in regards to disappointment in time spans between upgrades ... and the levels of advancement per-upgrade.

The D800 was a 36.3 mp advancement in 2012, perfected (with no filter/expanded ISO) by the D810 in 2014.

It wasn't until 2015, 3 years after the first 36.3 mp camera, that Sony expanded upon this size (by only 6.1mp) in the 42.4 mp A7rII.

The thrust the discussion was timeliness/magnitude of upgrades, in the wake of the D850 announcement, so I am not sure where you came up with your interpretation.

If we can get back to the point, I don't think an announcement of a D850 (almost exactly 3 years after the D810) is a very late level of increment at all.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 25, 2017, 01:49:19 PM
Actually, no.

The discussion was in regards to disappointment in time spans between upgrades ... and the levels of advancement per-upgrade.

The D800 was a 36.3 mp advancement in 2012, perfected (with no filter/expanded ISO) by the D810 in 2014.

It wasn't until 2015, 3 years after the first 36.3 mp camera, that Sony expanded upon this size (by only 6.1mp) in the 42.4 mp A7rII.

The thrust the discussion was timeliness/magnitude of upgrades, in the wake of the D850 announcement, so I am not sure where you came up with your interpretation.

If we can get back to the point, I don't think an announcement of a D850 (almost exactly 3 years after the D810) is a very late level of increment at all.

No the thread topic is a disappointment that the big announcement from Nikon is just announcing they are working on another camera. Really...they are working on a camera? That's the big news and I agree with the OP...yippeeeee. Let's all celebrate 100 years.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 01:55:38 PM
No the thread topic is a disappointment that the big announcement from Nikon is just announcing they are working on another camera. Really...they are working on a camera? That's the big news and I agree with the OP...yippeeeee. Let's all celebrate 100 years.

Well, your point (and pretty much any post you make) is intending to be derisive.

I have to admit that I, too, was disappointed that there isn't an actual D850 announcement ... but that video was supposedly shot with a prototype D850 on 8K video ... so it doesn't sound too far off at all.

Go ahead with whatever smart@$$ response you have, I've said my peace and will be eagerly-anticipating the D850, likely before the year's end.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on July 25, 2017, 02:38:50 PM
Re-read that back to yourself.

you still can't tell us why "the D810 was such a milestone, such a step-up from what was available at its time, that it has some pretty big shoes to fill." (c) You.

 ;D

thanks to there readers you now know that D810 was not the first 36mp camera...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 25, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
you still can't tell us why "the D810 was such a milestone, such a step-up from what was available at its time, that it has some pretty big shoes to fill." (c) You.


I can only say why the Nikon D810 was a milestone for me, personally. I have had almost all the Nikon digital cameras from Coolpix, to the Nikon D1x, and on up. The D810 was a milestone for me because:

(1) It offered a USABLE LiveView screen, so I don't have to use the OVF any longer for focusing, and I don't..

(2) It offered an ISO of 64, perhaps hard-wired, but it gave me superior blacks and less-noisy shadows than I ever had before.

Those are the (to me) most important qualities of the Nikon D810 for my work.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 25, 2017, 03:20:52 PM
you still can't tell us why "the D810 was such a milestone, such a step-up from what was available at its time, that it has some pretty big shoes to fill." (c) You.

I can.

In conjunction with removing AA filter altogether, to quote DP Review (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d810): “The D810 introduced some revolutionary technologies, with its ISO 64 performance allowing it to rival medium format image quality. And we don't throw around terms like this lightly: we're basing that statement on actual signal:noise ratio analyses.”

Even 3 years later “… at ISO 64 the D810 has industry-leading noise performance. That means the cleanest, crispest images south of medium format, and dynamic range that matches even the Pentax 645Z.”



thanks to there readers you now know that D810 was not the first 36mp camera...

And they also know you are a pettifogger, making a major issue out of a minor point.

It was my overall point which matters.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 25, 2017, 03:36:08 PM
Bet they put Fluorite and Ultra-low Dispersion (UD) glass in the AF system  :P
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on July 25, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Bet they put Fluorite and Ultra-low Dispersion (UD) glass in the AF system  :P

Clever!

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 25, 2017, 08:30:34 PM
The D810 looked like a small change from the outside, but it turned a very daring revolution, the D800, that had many small issues, into the best DSLR all rounder at the time, and many would say that Canon still hasn't caught up.

Nikon introduced with it:
- a new ultra low vibration shutter/mirror mechanism
- electronic first shutter
- an improved mirror up mechanism
- a much better live view
- a much cleaner super high DR sensor that still rivals the best medium format backs 3 years after its release

I consider it the 3rd most significant release in Nikon's digital history behind the D1 that pretty much defined what a pro DSLR is and the D3x that started the high DR revolution.

The latest D850 rumors mention a real breakthrough. We should know in one month or so...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 26, 2017, 04:56:18 AM
Out of curiosity, what is the current relationship between Nikon and Sony, ref. the sensors? Wasn't the sensor in the D800/810 (36 mp) a Sony one? Similar to the one later used in the A7R?

Could it be that the D850 will use a similar sensor, from Sony, to the one being used in the A7RII (42 mp)?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 26, 2017, 07:22:11 AM
(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nikon-D850-DSLR-camera-coming-soon-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 26, 2017, 09:37:33 AM
Out of curiosity, what is the current relationship between Nikon and Sony, ref. the sensors? Wasn't the sensor in the D800/810 (36 mp) a Sony one? Similar to the one later used in the A7R?

Could it be that the D850 will use a similar sensor, from Sony, to the one being used in the A7RII (42 mp)?

Indeed, the D810 sensor is a Sony part, but Nikon's toppings and sensor processing resulted in it having better behavior.

The D850 may use the Sony 42mp part, but I seriously doubt it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on July 26, 2017, 01:54:45 PM
I can already pre-order it at my shop ; usually it will take less than 2 months to be available...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on July 26, 2017, 02:33:49 PM
I can already pre-order it at my shop ; usually it will take less than 2 months to be available...

At what price?
Any information?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 26, 2017, 04:35:18 PM
(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nikon-D850-DSLR-camera-leaked-picture.jpg)

(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nikon-D850-DSLR-camera-leaked-picture-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 27, 2017, 12:23:48 AM
The real question here is why Nikon decided to communicate the way they did.

The most likely hypothesis is that they hope that the buzz that will be "naturally" generated btwn now and the actual annoucement will outdo what they could have done with a plain spec/price/availability annoucement one month later.

The only case where this makes sense is that of a breakthrough product and not a mere product update.

This tactic applied to a mere product update only generates frustration. And they must know that by now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on July 27, 2017, 12:32:57 AM
what can we see :
illuminated buttons; tilted screen - no built in flash but hopefully a very nice prism instead.
The real surprise must be inside the body... otherwise i agree with Bernard that this way of marketing is not very useful.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 27, 2017, 01:49:01 AM
The other question is what Thom Hogan has been doing the past 3 weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on July 27, 2017, 04:01:32 AM
42 mp?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 27, 2017, 04:22:58 AM
Indeed, the D810 sensor is a Sony part, but Nikon's toppings and sensor processing resulted in it having better behavior.

The D850 may use the Sony 42mp part, but I seriously doubt it.

Cheers,
Bernard

Why do you think that? Seems like a good sensor from Sony, according to A7RII reports. Unless Sony are already working on a new higher res sensor for their "R" series updates? Are they going to give Nikon the chance to use that before them?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 08:11:04 AM
Why do you think that? Seems like a good sensor from Sony, according to A7RII reports. Unless Sony are already working on a new higher res sensor for their "R" series updates? Are they going to give Nikon the chance to use that before them?

I don't believe Sony looks at their sensor sales in the same petty light that brand-cheering, internet posters do.

Sony fabbed the 36.3 mp sensor Nikon used 'before them' in the D800.
It wasn't until 1.7 years later that Sony first introduced a 36.4 mp sensor for the A7r.

If now, 5 years later, Nikon has designed another, bigger sensor for its purpose, and assuming they take the specifications to Sony, I am quite sure Sony will fab it for them.

Sony is a huge company that makes and sells a variety of sensors, to a variety of companies/customers, of which Nikon is but one.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 08:13:16 AM
illuminated buttons; tilted screen - no built in flash but hopefully a very nice prism instead.

Nikon showed special consideration for astro-photographers by creating the D810A.

I believe, based on the teaser ad itself, plus the illuminated buttons, the D850 intends to build on this special consideration.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 27, 2017, 08:37:11 AM
what can we see :
illuminated buttons; tilted screen - no built in flash but hopefully a very nice prism instead.
The real surprise must be inside the body... otherwise i agree with Bernard that this way of marketing is not very useful.

Very soon after the pictures leaked, it was suggested the bump above the viewfinder dioptre adjustment is a switch for selecting a hybrid viewfinder.The two holes either side of the eye piece to sense the user looking through. This also on the back of a patent for such a set up. Basically it allows the mirror to lock up as normal but then adds a live view by way of a small EVF on one part of the prism. This would not only allow focus peaking and video control via the viewfinder but the camera may also have some form of electronic shutter, similar to the A9 or hopefully better...

All rumours. One rumour site is playing it down till confirmed...

The bump almost looks like a rubber port cover, so anybody's guess just now...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 08:43:45 AM
Very different situation now.

The 36MP sensor used in the D800, D810, A7r and others is a Sony design (with small tweaks for each company). Back in 2012, Sony had a sensor, but no viable full-frame camera business (A-mount was dying even then). They also had a paying customer who could put these sensors into bodies, sell a lot of them and raise awareness of the Exmor (and Sony sensors in general) at the same time. It made sense to sell the sensor.

Sony wouldn't be ready to re-enter the full-frame camera business for almost two years. But the strategy worked. By the time the A7r was ready for launch, everyone knew about Exmor, everyone knew about Sony's sensor advantage and there was a large number of Canon non-action photographers - mostly ex-5D2 shooters - ready to move to a body with a better sensor, if they could just take their existing lenses with them. It sold like anything, despite the lack of native lenses available at the time - Nikon and the D800 had done the advertising for them, and the offer of a free Metabones adaptor with every A7 or A7r body sold only sweetened the deal and made it easier for frustrated Canon shooters to jump ship.

The situation now is different. Sony now has a major stake in the full-frame camera market, and every D850 sensor sold to Nikon is one less potential A9r or A7r3 sale. Ever wondered why no-one else is using the 42MP sensor, whereas several others have access to the (now second-line) 36MP sensor?

Therefore, Sony won't sell Nikon - or anyone else - their best sensor. They will sell their second-best sensor, so the 42MP sensor may make an appearance (since a next-generation version can't be far off). Also, if Nikon designs the sensor, Sony will make it for them - if they don't, then someone else will, and better to make something out of every Nikon body sold than nothing at all. But they won't sell them the best Sony design, and Nikon would be equally dumb to try to contract Sony to design it for them (there's no way Sony would design a sensor for Nikon to be better than their own top-of-the-line sensor - any advancements they made in designing that sensor would certainly make it into the Sony sensor too).

Nikon itself doesn't have a great track record with designing high-resolution, high-DR sensors. Their successes in that area have come courtesy of Toshiba (D7200) and Sony (D800/D810). And Sony now owns Toshiba's imaging division. So, Nikon would likely have to look for someone else to design the sensor. And, so far, no-one's managed to combine high resolution and high DR in the same 24x36mm package that Sony has.

Which leads to this - there is very little chance that the D850's sensor will match or surpass the A7r3's or A9r's sensor. It will be a good sensor, but it almost certainly won't beat the Sony. The Sony body will contain Sony's top-of-the-line sensor. The D850 won't. It may contain Sony's second-best sensor, or a Nikon-designed sensor made by Sony, but it won't contain Sony's best. The only way the D850 can have a better sensor is if they manage to find a third party to design one that beats Sony's best (in other words, doing basically what Sony did last time with the D800 sensor), which is a hard ask.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 08:49:48 AM
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Therefore, Sony won't sell Nikon - or anyone else - their best sensor.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Everything you wrote is based on this one sentence, which is not a fact, but 100% pure speculation on your part.

Check out LenScore's DX camera list ...

The Nikon D500 has the best DX sensor out of all of them, designed by Sony for Nikon only.

The same will be true for the D850, mark my words.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Eric Borgström on July 27, 2017, 09:01:56 AM
The other question is what Thom Hogan has been doing the past 3 weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard

He has his yearly month off as he states in his blog. Back in August.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 09:14:49 AM
Everything you wrote is based on this one sentence, which is not a fact, but 100% pure speculation on your part.

Check out LenScore's DX camera list ...

The Nikon D500 has the best DX sensor out of all of them, designed by Sony for Nikon only.

The same will be true for the D850, mark my words.

'Best DX sensor' isn't 'best sensor'.

Sony is barely bothering to compete in the APS-C format, apart from a few consumer-grade models with little dedicated lens support. Selling APS-C sensors to any potential buyer is really just part of the regular cashflow, not something with significant strategic implications. They would also sell their 100MP MF sensor, since Sony isn't competing in that field.

Full-frame wise, Sony will sell them anything, up to and including the 42MP A7r2 sensor (since that's reaching the end of its product cycle anyway). But they won't sell the one thing that gives their body the edge over the competition - their new top-of-the-line sensor. Without a sensor edge, the A9r/A7r3 would have a much more difficult time competing against the D850 and 5Ds2, and Sony would have a much more difficult time growing its market share, given the huge advantage in available lenses (not to mention individual lens collections) for Canon and Nikon mounts at the moment. This is a strategic consideration that trumps any short-term cash flow boost from a few sensor sales - particularly since, having overtaken Nikon as the second-biggest seller of interchangeable-lens cameras in the US market, they could make up for it in camera sales instead.

It would be just like Nikon or Canon manufacturing their best lenses in E-mount, under contract from Sony - not going to happen while they're competing for the same market.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 09:32:02 AM
'Best DX sensor' isn't 'best sensor'.

Best FF DSLR sensor isn't the best overall sensor either ...



Full-frame wise, Sony will sell them anything, up to and including the 42MP A7r2 sensor (since that's reaching the end of its product cycle anyway). But they won't sell the one thing that gives their body the edge over the competition - their new top-of-the-line sensor. Without a sensor edge, the A9r/A7r3 would have a much more difficult time competing against the D850 and 5Ds2, and Sony would have a much more difficult time growing its market share, given the huge advantage in available lenses (not to mention individual lens collections) for Canon and Nikon mounts at the moment. This is a strategic consideration that trumps any short-term cash flow boost from a few sensor sales - particularly since, having overtaken Nikon as the second-biggest seller of interchangeable-lens cameras in the US market, they could make up for it in camera sales instead.

Again, 100% pure speculation on your part. Also, Sony is not #2 yet either.

Regarding sensor-performance, aside from ignoring the fact the brand new Nikon D500 has the best DX sensor made; you also ignore that Nikon-spec'ed FF sensors still have the best low ISO ability, and the best high ISO ability.

Nothing will change.



It would be just like Nikon or Canon manufacturing their best lenses in E-mount, under contract from Sony - not going to happen while they're competing for the same market.

No, it wouldn't be 'just like' this at all.

Canon doesn't sell its sensors to Apple, or anyone else, like Sony does. Canon manufactures sensors for Canon.

Your anti-Nikon posture makes you project this "wishful thinking" belief, so you can feel your brand-preference "is in a class by itself," but the fact is Nikon sensors are already best in class at the DX, low-end, and same at the high-end. The reason Sony doesn't take your posture is they are not that small-minded. The truth is, Sony is too big to be affected by the camera market. They have their own unique niche there, but they also have a much bigger role as a commercial supplier of sensors.

We can go back and forth on this forever, but Nikon-spec'ed sensors are already on top in most areas.

They are not going to come out with a D850 that doesn't do likewise.

My last post on the subject, but again, mark my words.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 10:22:15 AM
Best FF DSLR sensor isn't the best overall sensor either ...



Again, 100% pure speculation on your part. Also, Sony is not #2 yet either.

Regarding sensor-performance, aside from ignoring the fact the brand new Nikon D500 has the best DX sensor made; you also ignore that Nikon-spec'ed FF sensors still have the best low ISO ability, and the best high ISO ability.

Nothing will change.

We're talking about low-ISO, high-resolution sensors here. The D850 isn't a high-speed action camera, so how the D500/D5/A9/1Dx2 perform is completely irrelevant.

In any case, the D500 sensor (Nikon-designed) is worse

Nikon's D810 sensor is a Sony-designed, Sony-made sensor. Nikon has never designed or made a sensor that matches Exmor sensors at low ISO.

Quote
No, it wouldn't be 'just like' this at all.

Canon doesn't sell its sensors to Apple, or anyone else, like Sony does. Canon manufactures sensors for Canon.

Canon are looking to do just that: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots)

Naturally, Canon isn't going to sell its best sensor to Nikon or Sony, either.

Just because a company sells a type of product in general, or one particular product to one particular customer, doesn't mean it will sell everything they make to any buyer. Sony sold the 36MP sensor to Nikon because it made sense at the time - Sony had no other way to use the sensor. There's nothing forcing them to do the same next time - they'll only do it if it's to their advantage to do so. And it would be dumb to sell your trump card to any competitor, particularly your main rival. Or do you actually think that Pentax wouldn't have used the 42MP sensor, had they been able to get their hands on it?

Quote
Your anti-Nikon posture makes you project this "wishful thinking" belief, so you can feel your brand-preference "is in a class by itself,"

'Brand preference'? Don't have one. I like sharp lenses in front of a top-performing sensor. Back in 2007-2008, that meant Canon/Zeiss lenses in front of a 1Ds3 or 5D2. Currently, that means Canon/Sigma/Zeiss in front of Sony bodies. Would use Nikon lenses too (and did use a 14-24 on the 5D2 and A7r), but they barely work with adaptors. The D810 is nice, but can't take third-party lenses not specifically made for F-mount, which is a deal-breaker. Until the recent PC-E 19, Nikon didn't have a decent wide-angle tilt-shift. And that still doesn't replace the critical 24mm tilt-shift, and the PC-E 24 is crap. It also can't take the Canon 100-400L II, which is the best landscape telephoto lens out there (taking into account corner-to-corner sharpness, weight for dragging through the wilderness and the focal lenghts covered - the verdict is still out on the Sony 100-400 GM), and both the 80-400 and 200-500 are significantly less sharp in the corners.

Quote
but the fact is Nikon sensors are already best in class at the DX, low-end, and same at the high-end.

Only thing is, none of the best sensors are designed by Nikon.

The D7200 is designed and made by a Toshiba - now a Sony subsidiary.

The D5 does well as an action camera, but not because of its sensor, but because of its AF and lens selection. The 1Dx2 has a better all-round sensor unless you only ever shoot at the very highest ISO, while the A9 matches the D5 in AF capabilities and has a better sensor at all ISOs (better DR/noise at low ISO, equal at high ISO but still maintaining a resolution advantage) but lacks the lens selection.

The D810 sensor is a Sony design.

Quote
The reason Sony doesn't take your posture is they are not that small-minded. The truth is, Sony is too big to be affected by the camera market. They have their own unique niche there, but they also have a much bigger role as a commercial supplier of sensors.

Companies can do more than one thing, and they balance their priorities.

Sony is trying to knock Nikon off its perch in the camera market. They're hardly going to give them their best selling point, to be used against them - they're not dumb. The sensors they sell to go in D810 bodies are a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers they supply for lesser cameras, industry, consumer goods and other non-photographic applications. The sales won't be missed, and will be mostly made up for by the increased market share from having a better camera in the market (less D850 sensors sold to Nikon, but more A9r bodies, sensors included, sold to the public). And they may still make the sensor - they just won't design it for them.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: NancyP on July 27, 2017, 10:48:00 AM
Three cheers for Michael's turtle photo. Herps make good subjects and are frequently overlooked (or avoided).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 10:54:50 AM
Three cheers for Michael's turtle photo. Herps make good subjects and are frequently overlooked (or avoided).

They also set a certain minimum standard as AF test subjects...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on July 27, 2017, 10:57:23 AM
They also set a certain minimum standard as AF test subjects...
Like my action photography strategy of photographing bicycle racers as they approach the top of a climb.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: jeremyrh on July 27, 2017, 12:03:02 PM
Like my action photography strategy of photographing bicycle racers as they approach the top of a climb.
And dancers when they're JUST on the point of succumbing to gravity :-)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 03:44:28 PM
We're talking about low-ISO, high-resolution sensors here. The D850 isn't a high-speed action camera, so how the D500/D5/A9/1Dx2 perform is completely irrelevant.

Jeeze, I promised not to comment, but your pathological denial of reality demands a response.

Please don't speak of what 'we' are talking about, unless you're addressing the mouse in your pocket.

I will talk about what I please, thank you ;)

I was talking about Nikon's superior sensor quality at all levels. To refresh your memory:

The D810 is the best Base ISO DSLR on the market, even 3 years after its production, and even after 3 new Sony offerings in the same class.

The Nikon-designed D500 is the best APS-C sensor on the market; it is also the most fully-capable APS-S camera on the market. Hence its multiple awards.

The D5 is the best high ISO DSLR on the market.

Denial of these truths, and the attempt to bury several of them, just so you can keep writing, is only denial on your part, not rebuttal.



In any case, the D500 sensor (Nikon-designed) is worse

Another deliberate misrepresentation.

The truth is, the Nikon D500 has the best DX (APS-C) sensor available today. Better than any Sony offering; better than any Canon offering.

Better ergonomics, functionality, and 10x better AF function, too.



Nikon's D810 sensor is a Sony-designed, Sony-made sensor. Nikon has never designed or made a sensor that matches Exmor sensors at low ISO.

What difference does it make?

Nikon's handling of the Sony sensor (in the D810) has achieved better Base ISO results than ... not one ... not two ... but three subsequent Sony sensors made in the wake of the D800/D810. Nikon can simply handle the sensors better.



Canon are looking to do just that: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots)

Naturally, Canon isn't going to sell its best sensor to Nikon or Sony, either.

Well, given Canon's dismal sensor performance, I don't imagine to many prospective buyers flocking to them over Sony ....



Just because a company sells a type of product in general, or one particular product to one particular customer, doesn't mean it will sell everything they make to any buyer. Sony sold the 36MP sensor to Nikon because it made sense at the time - Sony had no other way to use the sensor. There's nothing forcing them to do the same next time - they'll only do it if it's to their advantage to do so. And it would be dumb to sell your trump card to any competitor, particularly your main rival. Or do you actually think that Pentax wouldn't have used the 42MP sensor, had they been able to get their hands on it?

This is simply burying your head in the sand, ignoring the reality that, 5 years (and 3 FF sensors later), Sony still doesn't produce the best base ISO results; the aged Nikon D810 does.



'Brand preference'? Don't have one. I like sharp lenses in front of a top-performing sensor. Back in 2007-2008, that meant Canon/Zeiss lenses in front of a 1Ds3 or 5D2. Currently, that means Canon/Sigma/Zeiss in front of Sony bodies. Would use Nikon lenses too (and did use a 14-24 on the 5D2 and A7r), but they barely work with adaptors. The D810 is nice, but can't take third-party lenses not specifically made for F-mount, which is a deal-breaker. Until the recent PC-E 19, Nikon didn't have a decent wide-angle tilt-shift. And that still doesn't replace the critical 24mm tilt-shift, and the PC-E 24 is crap. It also can't take the Canon 100-400L II, which is the best landscape telephoto lens out there (taking into account corner-to-corner sharpness, weight for dragging through the wilderness and the focal lenghts covered - the verdict is still out on the Sony 100-400 GM), and both the 80-400 and 200-500 are significantly less sharp in the corners.

Your posts belie this claim. You are a Canon fanboy converted to a Sony fanboy.

The Canon 100-400 is (at best) a convenient medium-high-quality lens, nothing more.

The Nikon D810 doesn't need 3rd party lenses: the Nikkor optics all eclipse most 3rd party (or Canon) option available.

The few exceptions are Otus lenses, which fit on the D810 just fine, and produce cleaner images on the D810 at base ISO than any Canon or Sony cameras with the same lens.



Only thing is, none of the best sensors are designed by Nikon.

The D4s sensor beats any Sony sensor, and was manufactured by Nikon.
The D500 sensor beats any competitor's sensor, and was spec'ed by Nikon.



The D5 does well as an action camera, but not because of its sensor, but because of its AF and lens selection. The 1Dx2 has a better all-round sensor unless you only ever shoot at the very highest ISO, while the A9 matches the D5 in AF capabilities and has a better sensor at all ISOs (better DR/noise at low ISO, equal at high ISO but still maintaining a resolution advantage) but lacks the lens selection.

More rubbish.

The A9 AF system is sub-par to the D5's.
The buffer, and ability to keep going, is a joke compared to the D5's.



The D810 sensor is a Sony design.

Nikon's removal of the AA filter, + 64 ISO expansion, makes it better than any Sony effort with their own sensors.



Companies can do more than one thing, and they balance their priorities.
Sony is trying to knock Nikon off its perch in the camera market. They're hardly going to give them their best selling point, to be used against them - they're not dumb. The sensors they sell to go in D810 bodies are a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers they supply for lesser cameras, industry, consumer goods and other non-photographic applications. The sales won't be missed, and will be mostly made up for by the increased market share from having a better camera in the market (less D850 sensors sold to Nikon, but more A9r bodies, sensors included, sold to the public). And they may still make the sensor - they just won't design it for them.

We go back to your baseless, "wishful thinking," prognostication.

The truth is, the sensors they sell to Nikon in all probability out-revenue the money they make selling their own inferior, limited cameras ... to zealots like you, with limited needs.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 27, 2017, 03:51:44 PM

I consider it the 3rd most significant release in Nikon's digital history behind the D1 that pretty much defined what a pro DSLR is and the D3x that started the high DR revolution.

For me, Nikon's most significant digital camera was the D3.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 27, 2017, 03:57:20 PM
For me, Nikon's most significant digital camera was the D3.

It's a valid candidate, I have nice memories of mine.

But to me it was a huge step for Nikon but a medium one for DSLRs overall, Canon had a good deal of what it offered already. Granted the D3 had better AF and better high iso image quality.

The D3x on the other hand was the first camera putting DSLRs in the same ballpark as MFDBs in terms of DR. I find that more significant overall, but that only reflects my belief that DR is very important.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 27, 2017, 04:06:52 PM
It's a valid candidate, I have nice memories of mine.

But to me it was a huge step for Nikon but a medium one for DSLRs overall, Canon had a good deal of what it offered already. Granted the D3 had better AF and better high iso image quality.

The D3x on the other hand was the first camera putting DSLRs in the same ballpark as MFDBs in terms of DR. I find that more significant overall, but that only reflects my belief that DR is very important.

Good points. Using the Aptina terminology, the D3x was a breakthrough in intra-scene DR, while the D3 was a breakthrough in inter-scene DR.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 27, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
Jeeze, I promised not to comment, but your pathological denial of reality demands a response.

Please don't speak of what 'we' are talking about, unless you're addressing the mouse in your pocket.

I will talk about what I please, thank you ;)

I was talking about Nikon's superior sensor quality at all levels. To refresh your memory:

The D810 is the best Base ISO DSLR on the market, even 3 years after its production, and even after 3 new Sony offerings in the same class.

The Nikon-designed D500 is the best APS-C sensor on the market; it is also the most fully-capable APS-S camera on the market. Hence its multiple awards.

The D5 is the best high ISO DSLR on the market.

Denial of these truths, and the attempt to bury several of them, just so you can keep writing, is only denial on your part, not rebuttal.



Another deliberate misrepresentation.

The truth is, the Nikon D500 has the best DX (APS-C) sensor available today. Better than any Sony offering; better than any Canon offering.

Better ergonomics, functionality, and 10x better AF function, too.



What difference does it make?

Nikon's handling of the Sony sensor (in the D810) has achieved better Base ISO results than ... not one ... not two ... but three subsequent Sony sensors made in the wake of the D800/D810. Nikon can simply handle the sensors better.



Well, given Canon's dismal sensor performance, I don't imagine to many prospective buyers flocking to them over Sony ....



This is simply burying your head in the sand, ignoring the reality that, 5 years (and 3 FF sensors later), Sony still doesn't produce the best base ISO results; the aged Nikon D810 does.



Your posts belie this claim. You are a Canon fanboy converted to a Sony fanboy.

The Canon 100-400 is (at best) a convenient medium-high-quality lens, nothing more.

The Nikon D810 doesn't need 3rd party lenses: the Nikkor optics all eclipse most 3rd party (or Canon) option available.

The few exceptions are Otus lenses, which fit on the D810 just fine, and produce cleaner images on the D810 at base ISO than any Canon or Sony cameras with the same lens.



The D4s sensor beats any Sony sensor, and was manufactured by Nikon.
The D500 sensor beats any competitor's sensor, and was spec'ed by Nikon.



More rubbish.

The A9 AF system is sub-par to the D5's.
The buffer, and ability to keep going, is a joke compared to the D5's.



Nikon's removal of the AA filter, + 64 ISO expansion, makes it better than any Sony effort with their own sensors.



We go back to your baseless, "wishful thinking," prognostication.

The truth is, the sensors they sell to Nikon in all probability out-revenue the money they make selling their own inferior, limited cameras ... to zealots like you, with limited needs.

John boy...something really got you steamed up and you come swinging with your Nikon pompoms. Let's just give this a rest and wait until the camera is released before a gasket gets blown.

Let's just say Nikon is number 1 at everything...but their market share has been dropping like a rock.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 08:28:39 PM
John boy...something really got you steamed up and you come swinging with your Nikon pompoms. Let's just give this a rest and wait until the camera is released before a gasket gets blown.

Pretty sure you wouldn't call me 'boy' in person, and pretty sure you'd do anything but 'swing' if we met also.

Agree on the last part. No gaskets blown, but enough time wasted.



Let's just say Nikon is number 1 at everything...but their market share has been dropping like a rock.

Everybody's market share has dropped like a rock (Canon's total sales is down 35% also).

I agree, Sony's market share is 'up' ... mostly because they were less than 2% a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 27, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
Pretty sure you wouldn't call me 'boy' in person, and pretty sure you'd do anything but 'swing' if we met also.

Agree on the last part. No gaskets blown, but enough time wasted.



Everybody's market share has dropped like a rock (Canon's total sales is down 35% also).

I agree, Sony's market share is 'up' ... mostly because they were less than 2% a couple of years ago.

Market share is a percentage of the entire market. When Nikon's share which used to be around 40% drops to about 25%...that's significant. And no Canon's market share had held steady and mirrorless had eaten up Nikon's share.

As far as Sony's market share, I can confidently say it is Much greater than the 2% you mention. In fact mirrorless market share of ILC has been climbing and sits at roughly 35%.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Maverick02 on July 27, 2017, 10:06:45 PM

Another thread full of back and forth, this was one of the forum's one could come to, where things where discussed, talked out, and each side presented themselves intelligently, without all the ego and pride being in the forefront.  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 10:11:27 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah... too long and too nonsensical to address each assertion individually.

Until you actually bring out some data to back up your claims (apart from the idiotic, derived, uncorroborated Lenscore/Senscore values which don't actually correlate with other tests out there which have published their methods or raw data), they remain just as idiotic as your previous asseetions of Canon's superiority to everything else out there. Or do you want me to start quoting those posts too (they were made when the D810 and D4 were already out, so no excuses about changing technology)?

I've got access to enough cameras to not be a 'fanboy' of anything. I just use the right tool for the job. I don't even personally own a Canon or Sony camera at the moment. But the Nikons stay in the locker most of the time for a good reason - much the same reason as the Mamiya MF body.

As for Nikon sensors (either not designed, not made, or both, by  Nikon) being 'better' than others, take a look at the chart here.

photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

Raw numbers (presented as a logarithmic DR value), not derived scores without explanation as to how they were actually derived. They also correlate well with other tests out there.

D810 vs A7r2 - effectively equal DR at base ISO. The A7r2 has as much DR at ISO 100 as the D810 has at ISO 64 (11.42 vs 11.6 stops at 1:20 SNR, which is well within the margin of error in testing). If you want to nit-pick decimal points within the margin of error, the original A7r actually has a higher measured DR at ISO 100 than the D810 at ISO 64 (again, it is within the margin of error, so it is functionally the same). The A7r2 also performs better at high ISO (the D810 and A7r lines being the same, since they are basically the same sensor) and has a few extra megapixels. There's a reason one sensor is newer than the other.

D5 vs 1Dx2 vs A9 - the lines all basically overlap at high ISO. The Canon and Sony kill the Nikon at low ISO (as does the older D4/D4s).

Lens-wise, look at the Lensrentals blog. Measured data from multiple lenses, presented as MTF charts at multiple frequencies, not jist a single 'sharpness' value that is somehow related to the sharpest part of the lens at the sharpest aperture.  No-one's lenses are uniformly better. Even at the same focal length or in the same length category, it often comes down to your priorities. Do you need maximal central sharpness, since the corners will be out-of-focus anyway, or is across-the-frame sharpness more important? Sharpness wide-open, or stopped down? Can you handle some astigmatism if the lens is sharper overall? Which end of the zoom is more important? How about field curvature? Even the DxO lens data is better - 'accutance' may be a derived value from MTFs at multiple frequencies (someone at DPR or Fredmiranda came up with a conversion formula that works within a small margin of error), but at least they've published data from across the frame, at multiple focal lengths and apertures, and you can see how they came up with the numbers that they did. Lenscore could just as well be rolling dice and you'd never know, with their lack of transparency.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 27, 2017, 10:47:26 PM
Market share is a percentage of the entire market. When Nikon's share which used to be around 40% drops to about 25%...that's significant. And no Canon's market share had held steady and mirrorless had eaten up Nikon's share.

As far as Sony's market share, I can confidently say it is Much greater than the 2% you mention. In fact mirrorless market share of ILC has been climbing and sits at roughly 35%.

Face it - he's obviously not a technical person, and clearly doesn't understand data beyond x is a bigger number than y, with the false implications that x is better than y at everything, and that everything that brand x makes is better than everything that brand y makes. Just likes to be told which brand to follow (in simplistic, 1-number, all-or-nothing terms) then becomes an attack dog for that team, without any nuances. He was a zealot for Canon back when he shot Canon (to the point of arguing that the D810 didn't have a DR or real resolution advantage over the 5D3) and, since converting to Nikon, has become even more   zealous in defending his new religion, to the point of directly contradicting his own previous arguments, and in such a way that, if even a quarter of what he said were true, you'd wonder why anyone would shoot Canon or Sony at all, or why they're still in business.

Fortunately, the rest of us have data that we can read and interpret,  which is often much more nuanced than the black-or-white assertions of zealots, and not at all one-sided.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah...
As for Nikon sensors (either not designed, not made, or both, by  Nikon) being 'better' than others, take a look at the chart here.

photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

Aside from your own blah-blah, the reference link you provided, the same distinction obtains at Base ISO:

The truth is, they're all getting close, but Nikon's oldest is still a little better than Canon/Sony's newest.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 10:59:48 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah...
As for Nikon sensors (either not designed, not made, or both, by  Nikon) being 'better' than others, take a look at the chart here.

photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

Again, aside from your own blah-blah, the reference link you provided, the same distinction obtains at High ISO:

Once more, they're all very close, but Nikon's newest is still a little better than Canon/Sony's newest, where it matters at High ISO.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 27, 2017, 11:08:23 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah...
As for Nikon sensors (either not designed, not made, or both, by  Nikon) being 'better' than others, take a look at the chart here.

photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

And, finally, using your own blah-blah again, and the same reference link, are we surprised to find Nikon in front of the the APS-C comparison:

The D500 dominates at Base ISO ... and it evens out at high ISO ... while being much more fully-functional than either.

You claim to be a "technical" person ... yet what qualifications do you really have?

As best I can tell, you got beat up a few months ago, let people steal your gear from you, and since then you've been doing ... what?

Seems you weren't smart enough to buy an adequate insurance policy to cover yourself ... so I am not sure why you think your opinion on gear is all that special.

Try being respectful, and you might get the same in return.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 28, 2017, 08:54:04 AM
Face it - he's obviously not a technical person, and clearly doesn't understand data beyond x is a bigger number than y, with the false implications that x is better than y at everything, and that everything that brand x makes is better than everything that brand y makes. Just likes to be told which brand to follow (in simplistic, 1-number, all-or-nothing terms) then becomes an attack dog for that team, without any nuances. He was a zealot for Canon back when he shot Canon (to the point of arguing that the D810 didn't have a DR or real resolution advantage over the 5D3) and, since converting to Nikon, has become even more   zealous in defending his new religion, to the point of directly contradicting his own previous arguments, and in such a way that, if even a quarter of what he said were true, you'd wonder why anyone would shoot Canon or Sony at all, or why they're still in business.

Fortunately, the rest of us have data that we can read and interpret,  which is often much more nuanced than the black-or-white assertions of zealots, and not at all one-sided.

Yes John's tenacious brand loyalty and defense to the death mentality has him banned from another board. Maybe it's best to just ignore the obvious cheer leading as I've seen it drag down an entire board.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 28, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Yes John's tenacious brand loyalty and defense to the death mentality has him banned from another board. Maybe it's best to just ignore the obvious cheer leading as I've seen it drag down an entire board.

Nice exaggeration (always the sign of a flawed argument).

No "entire board" has ever been "dragged-down" by anyone's post that I am aware of.

As far as cheerleading goes, if Nikon were producing sub-par cameras, with lousy sensors, and non-competitive features, I would be the first to become disgruntled and leave ... as I did when Canon came out with the 7D II ... after I waited over 6 years for their upgrade, only to be disappointed.

However, what I keep seeing are top scores/marks, in every category, with what Nikon is putting out.

I see no evidence that Sony cameras are keeping 'the superior' sensors unto themselves; the overwhelming evidence (posted above) suggests nothing of the sort.

It would be nice to be able to discuss Nikon products without you two haters predicting gloom-and-doom in every thread topic.

Perhaps you could start an A9 thread.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 28, 2017, 07:30:34 PM
Nice exaggeration (always the sign of a flawed argument).

No "entire board" has ever been "dragged-down" by anyone's post that I am aware of.

As far as cheerleading goes, if Nikon were producing sub-par cameras, with lousy sensors, and non-competitive features, I would be the first to become disgruntled and leave ... as I did when Canon came out with the 7D II ... after I waited over 6 years for their upgrade, only to be disappointed.

However, what I keep seeing are top scores/marks, in every category, with what Nikon is putting out.

I see no evidence that Sony cameras are keeping 'the superior' sensors unto themselves; the overwhelming evidence (posted above) suggests nothing of the sort.

It would be nice to be able to discuss Nikon products without you two haters predicting gloom-and-doom in every thread topic.

Perhaps you could start an A9 thread.

Thanks.

Top scores if you look at your selective views of only one site that does not publish their test process. If you look at a few other sites, you get a very different picture, but you refuse to do so as it might knock your beloved Nikon off that pedestal which you seem to really need.

As far as Sony goes...it's killing it with the latest lenses they are releasing, 12-24 and 100-400 and that A9 is quite the performer, but not something I need.

Notice that even though the reviews for the 12-24 put it ahead of the Nikon 14-24 and the Canon 11-24, I don't wave the "we are numeral UNO" finger in the air as that to me is just meaningless cheer leading.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 28, 2017, 07:59:41 PM
Top scores if you look at your selective views of only one site that does not publish their test process. If you look at a few other sites, you get a very different picture, but you refuse to do so as it might knock your beloved Nikon off that pedestal which you seem to really need.

As I recall, I just finished posting screen-grabs from the site our pilfered, camera-less friend provided where the same conclusions obtained: Nikon on top in the areas their models specialize in.



As far as Sony goes...it's killing it with the latest lenses they are releasing, 12-24 and 100-400 and that A9 is quite the performer, but not something I need.

Notice that even though the reviews for the 12-24 put it ahead of the Nikon 14-24 and the Canon 11-24, I don't wave the "we are numeral UNO" finger in the air as that to me is just meaningless cheer leading.

You apparently aren't subtle enough to appreciate the rich irony (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=118714.0) here.

Anyway, enough is enough. Hopefully, developments in the Nikon D850 can continue to be posted without your derisive interference.

Have a nice weekend.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2017, 10:13:10 PM
Guys, in the end all these cameras (except the 6DII ;)) are brilliant tools.

- In a few months both Nikon and Canon will have full frame mirrorless cameras available and will be in the position Sony is in right now (latest entrant). The past 2-3 years will be forgotten quickly and people will be back chosing cameras based on their own merits and that of the system they belong to instead of chosing a brand because of investor's concern about possible market consolidation.
- there is plenty proof that both of these companies know how to design amazing optics and little evidence that Sony is ahead in this area although they are very good also,
- there is not going to be a clear enough winner btw Nikon and Canon in the DSLR war that it really matters much from a photographic standpoint. I'll be convinced that my D850 will remain the last top of the hill DSLR, like the Nikon F6 has remained the best film SLR, and some Canon users will feel the same about their 5DMkX,
- the last DSLR lenses designed like the Nikon 105mm f1.4 or 70-200 f2.8 E FL will go down in history as benchmark lenses from a past era but will continue to be used very successfully on mirrorless bodies, just like the last Leica R lenses remain pretty much unbeaten 20 years after their introduction (180mm f2.8 APO).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 29, 2017, 04:58:14 AM
Guys, in the end all these cameras (except the 6DII ;)) are brilliant tools.

- In a few months both Nikon and Canon will have full frame mirrorless cameras available and will be in the position Sony is in right now (latest entrant). The past 2-3 years will be forgotten quickly and people will be back chosing cameras based on their own merits and that of the system they belong to instead of chosing a brand because of investor's concern about possible market consolidation.
- there is plenty proof that both of these companies know how to design amazing optics and little evidence that Sony is ahead in this area although they are very good also,
- there is not going to be a clear enough winner btw Nikon and Canon in the DSLR war that it really matters much from a photographic standpoint. I'll be convinced that my D850 will remain the last top of the hill DSLR, like the Nikon F6 has remained the best film SLR, and some Canon users will feel the same about their 5DMkX,
- the last DSLR lenses designed like the Nikon 105mm f1.4 or 70-200 f2.8 E FL will go down in history as benchmark lenses from a past era but will continue to be used very successfully on mirrorless bodies, just like the last Leica R lenses remain pretty much unbeaten 20 years after their introduction (180mm f2.8 APO).

Cheers,
Bernard

The 6DII could go down as the best all round digital camera of all time...  :P

Nikon F6, you're kidding, only 8 FPS and only 11 focus points running slower than the previous Nikon F5 which only had 5...!  ;)


Everyone knows the best ever camera, digital or otherwise was the EOS 1V HS. It had a true gray scale meter so did not guess exposure like the Nikon had to, not forgetting it also had access to the best range of lenses in history. Lenses that saw people running to Canon from Nikon that had no ring USM's...  ;D














Joking. I am sure the F6 is a fine camera...  :D
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: HSakols on July 29, 2017, 10:49:55 AM
Maybe this thread should be in the coffee corner because it is more about religion and spirituality.  I find the whole announcement odd.  It seems that Nikon is under so much pressure that they are forced to announce something even though it is not the right time - they couldn't even comment on the sensor.  Being a member of the Nikon church, I at some point will upgrade my D800, but not just to buy bells and whistles I'll never appreciate - e.g. I don't want a video camera.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm finding that I grab my micro 4/3 system more and more and limit my printing to relatively small sizes.  For those who beleive one church is superior to the other, stop shooting jpegs and learn to use raw - this is simply rehtoric from the priests who have nothing better to do.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 11:05:06 AM
Maybe this thread should be in the coffee corner because it is more about religion and spirituality.  I find the whole announcement odd.  It seems that Nikon is under so much pressure that they are forced to announce something even though it is not the right time - they couldn't even comment on the sensor. 

They don't seem to be worried about the Osborne Effect. Does that say something about current D810 sales?

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 11:10:47 AM
Being a member of the Nikon church, I at some point will upgrade my D800, but not just to buy bells and whistles I'll never appreciate - e.g. I don't want a video camera.

The D810 is a series of upgrades -- decent LV focusing, EFCS (hobbled EFCS, but still EFCS), much Improved AF --  to the D800E that together make a huge difference to me.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/nikon-d810-summary/

You may be able to pick up a used one cheaply soon. Maybe even mine, though I'm going to keep it for a while to test against the new camera when it ships.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 01:57:14 PM
Aside from your own blah-blah, the reference link you provided, the same distinction obtains at Base ISO:

The truth is, they're all getting close, but Nikon's oldest is still a little better than Canon/Sony's newest.

You can't argue with measured numbers:

Landscape/studio cameras at low ISO: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2 (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2)

D810 at ISO 64 - 11.6 stops (setting the floor at 20:1 SNR - DxO uses a 1:1 SNR, which is why the numbers are different, but interconvertible)
A7r at ISO 100 - 11.71
A7r2 at ISO 100 - 11.42

All within the same roughly one-third to half-a-stop margin of error (i.e. equal performance, likely variable between individual sensors and indistinguishable in practice). The A7r2 also nets you a few extra megapixels over the other two - never a bad thing for a landscape/studio body.

D810 at ISO 100 gets 11.06.

So, if you really want to nit-pick, the A7r actually recorded more DR at ISO 100 than the D810 did at ISO 64. Not that this actually means anything, since the two values are so close together they are likely to fall within the test's margin of error and would be overshadowed by sensor variability in actual use. Both Sonys also overshadow the Nikon at ISO 100, but you'd have little reason to ever use ISO 100 instead of ISO 64 when shooting a static scene with the D810, so that comparison is irrelevant.

Action cameras at mid ISO (400-6400 - the most relevant ones for the vast majority of action/wildlife/sports photography): http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9 (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9)

1Dx2 at ISO 400 - 9.56
D5 at ISO 400 - 9.00
A9 at ISO 400 - 9.22

At ISO 400, D5 and A9 are essentially the same, with the 1Dx2 a little ahead.

1Dx2 at ISO 800 - 8.86
D5 at ISO 800 - 8.43
A9 at ISO 800 - 9.24 (different post-sensor treatment at different ISOs likely provides the jump in DR seen between ISO 400 and 800 - we see this at a few points in the graphs of all three cameras)

The A9 and 1Dx2 are comparable here, with the D5 over two-thirds of a stop behind the leader.

1Dx2 at ISO 1600 - 8.06
D5 at ISO 1600 - 8.04
A9 at ISO 1600 - 8.49

1Dx2 and D5 are indistinguishable here, with the A9 possibly a little in front.

1Dx2 at ISO 3200 - 7.14
D5 at ISO 3200 - 7.60
A9 at ISO 3200 - 7.44

D5 and A9 are essentially the same at ISO 3200, with the 1Dx2 lagging a bit behind here.

1Dx2 at ISO 6400 - 6.18
D5 at ISO 6400 - 6.68
A9 at ISO 6400 - 6.53

Again, the D5 and A9 are essentially indistinguishable, with the two values falling well within the margin of error, with the 1Dx2 again being a bit behind.

So, all three sensors provide comparable DR performance for the vast majority of sports/action/wildlife applications, with the 1Dx2 being perhaps a touch better at the bottom of the range (if you shoot outdoor daytime sports or in floodlit stadiums) and the D5 having an edge over the 1Dx2 at the top of the range (if you shoot amateur sport or indoor sports with poor lighting) and the A9 being consistent throughout the range. The A9 gets you 16% more pixels, but currently lacks fast, long lenses (fine if you shoot tennis or basketball, not so great if you shoot soccer or hyenas), although this is likely to change by the end of the year, with a fast 400mm in the works.

As an aside, here are the values for the D810 and A7r2:

D810 at ISO 800 - 8.44
A7r2 at ISO 800 - 9.32

D810 at ISO 3200 - 6.59
A7r2 at ISO 3200 - 7.37

Obviously, they're not action cameras, but, as a general-purpose camera (which almost all cameras, whether landscape-oriented or action-oriented, will be called into service for), and even for some limited landscape/nature situations (e.g. avoiding star trails, or where a tripod isn't an option, or where you're trying to shoot a macro of a flower or fungus and there's a breeze), the A7r2 is well ahead of the D810 at mid-to-high ISOs. Between the D800/D810/A7r sensor (all variants of the same sensor) and the A7r2 sensor, Sony really gave a major boost to the high-ISO performance of Exmor (which was even more of an issue back in the days of the A900 and D3x, which were great at base ISO, but not much good above ISO 400 or so).

Even against the D5, (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2) the A7r2 sensor holds up well at high ISO - it retains a DR advantage up to ISO 2000, then becomes indistinguishable with the D5 after that (the lines go back and forth and cross several times, but stay within 1/3 of a stop of each other). It also retains its megapixel advantage - over double the pixel count. Of course, the A7r2 probably won't autofocus under those lighting conditions, but the sensor holds up all the way to very high ISOs.

Extremely high ISO (not actually all that relevant for most purposes, other than bragging rights or if you exclusively shoot in unlit environments, e.g. poorly-lit concerts): http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9 (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9)

1Dx2 at ISO 12800 - 5.2
D5 at ISO 12800 - 5.68
A9 at ISO 12800 - 5.58

1Dx2 at ISO 25600 - 4.28
D5 at ISO 25600 - 4.72
A9 at ISO 25600 - 4.61

1Dx2 at ISO 51200 - 3.51
D5 at ISO 51200 - 3.69
A9 at ISO 51200 - 3.50

1Dx2 at ISO 102400 - 2.72
D5 at ISO 102400 - 2.70
A9 at ISO 102400 - 3.17

So, the A9 and D5 are indistinguishable at ISO 12800 and 25600, both being marginally ahead of the 1Dx2, but all three are equal at ISO 51200. Interestingly, the A9 jumps ahead of the other two by a significant margin at ISO 102400, but, by that stage, the image quality is so poor it's no good for anything other than a casual 'I was here' shot, or a 'breaking news' shot taken on the scene of an incident by a photojournalist, where any shot is better than none.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: HSakols on July 29, 2017, 02:00:29 PM
Numbers are fine, but if you can't see the difference in the final print they are meaningless. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
And, finally, using your own blah-blah again, and the same reference link, are we surprised to find Nikon in front of the the APS-C comparison:

The D500 dominates at Base ISO ... and it evens out at high ISO ... while being much more fully-functional than either.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%2080D,Nikon%20D500,Nikon%20D7200,Nikon%20D7500,Sony%20ILCE-6300 (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%2080D,Nikon%20D500,Nikon%20D7200,Nikon%20D7500,Sony%20ILCE-6300)

'Pro-level' APS-C is a one-horse race, with only Nikon bothering with it. Neither Canon or Sony even pretend to have an interest in it - the 7D2 and A6300 are, at best, aimed at the same enthusiast level as the D7xxx range.

Regardless, the D500 doesn't 'dominate' at base ISO. The D7200 (a Toshiba sensor, not a Nikon-designed one) is slightly (about half a stop) ahead of the D7500 and D500, although not significantly ahead of the A6300. Above base ISO, all three sensors fall within a third of a stop of each other and essentially perform identically, except that the D7200 gives you a few extra pixels.

The 80D is behind all the others, but, as a 1.6x crop sensor instead of 1.5x crop, isn't really comparable.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
You claim to be a "technical" person ... yet what qualifications do you really have?

More than you, probably. Background in the hard sciences - which, among other things, calls for the ability to evaluate and interpret data and methodology - with further research qualifications and a career based on applied science.

Quote
As best I can tell, you got beat up a few months ago, let people steal your gear from you, and since then you've been doing ... what?

Seems you weren't smart enough to buy an adequate insurance policy to cover yourself ... so I am not sure why you think your opinion on gear is all that special.

So? I'm a scientific/technical person. Wouldn't know the first thing about insurance laws or policies, and I'd fall asleep trying to read the first page.

That's about as much of a non sequitur as judging the skill of your brain surgeon based on his ability to play the guitar.

Quote
Try being respectful, and you might get the same in return.

Notice how you're the only person who cops it, and only after you throw the first punch by launching a tirade of abuse at me and/or others?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 03:50:03 PM
You can't argue with measured numbers:

Landscape/studio cameras at low ISO: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2 (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2)

D810 at ISO 64 - 11.6 stops (setting the floor at 20:1 SNR - DxO uses a 1:1 SNR, which is why the numbers are different but interconvertible)
A7r at ISO 100 - 11.71
A7r2 at ISO 100 - 11.42

Bill's PDR SNR depends on the resolution of the camera. It's 16000 divided by the image height in pixels. So for the D810 and the a7R, it's 3.26, and for the a7RII, it's 3.02. There is a question of how relevant this definition will be as sensor pitch decreases. When it reaches about 400 MP, PDR will equal EDR, and that doesn't seem right.

You mentioned that you can convert PDR to EDR and vice-versa. At least that what I think you said. I don't know how to do that. OTOH, given FWC and RN, I can compute both.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 03:58:29 PM
Bill's PDR SNR depends on the resolution of the camera. It's 16000 divided by the image height in pixels. So for the D810 and the a7R, it's 3.26, and for the a7RII, it's 3.02. There is a question of how relevant this definition will be as sensor pitch decreases. When it reaches about 400 MP, PDR will equal EDR, and that doesn't seem right.

You mentioned that you can convert PDR to EDR and vice-versa. At least that what I think you said. I don't know how to do that. OTOH, given FWC and RN, I can compute both.

Jim

His PDR values are normalised to a fixed resolution, as if the image were downsampled (or upsampled, for a low-resolution sensor). This way, output size is equalised and two sensors of differing resolutions can be fairly compared at the same output size.

DxO treats DR in the same way, normalising images to 8MP. Hence, DxO numbers can be converted to PDR numbers, just by taking the stated noise floor (1:1 vs 20:1, or whatever ratio is chosen) and compensating for it.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 04:25:43 PM
His PDR values are normalised to a fixed resolution, as if the image were downsampled (or upsampled, for a low-resolution sensor). This way, output size is equalised and two sensors of differing resolutions can be fairly compared at the same output size.

Yes, the normalization is accomplished by varying the target SNR as I explained above. I now think we probably agree on this point, but your phrasing confused me earlier.

DxO treats DR in the same way, normalising images to 8MP. Hence, DxO numbers can be converted to PDR numbers, just by taking the stated noise floor (1:1 vs 20:1, or whatever ratio is chosen) and compensating for it.

Please explain how you'd do that, since EDR has only RN, and PDR conflates RN and photon noise  [and PRNU, per Bill's advice below]in a quadrature summation. Knowing only RN or EDR won't tell you what the PDR is without additional information that lets you compute the shot noise, which is actually the point of having PDR in the first place. An exception is a very large image; the number is 384 MP.

{Added. A bit more detail on the PDR calculations. Bill and I both compute PDR by direct sample search, but our methods are quite different. I capture pairs and flat-field them to correct for lighting differences. Bill has another way of dealing with that. Nevertheless, we usually are in substantial agreement about PDR numbers for the cameras that we both test. He has in some cases taken samples from my cameras, and agreement is even better in those cases, since we are looking at the same serial number cameras, although not the same samples, since the capture protocols are different.

I did have a conversation with Bill about a model-based PDR computation, and he said that he sometimes uses one as a sanity check, but he cautioned me not to neglect the contribution of PRNU in the model, which surprised me;' i thought it would be negligible. ]

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 29, 2017, 06:02:17 PM
More than you, probably. Background in the hard sciences - which, among other things, calls for the ability to evaluate and interpret data and methodology - with further research qualifications and a career based on applied science.

So? I'm a scientific/technical person. Wouldn't know the first thing about insurance laws or policies, and I'd fall asleep trying to read the first page.

That's about as much of a non sequitur as judging the skill of your brain surgeon based on his ability to play the guitar.

Notice how you're the only person who cops it, and only after you throw the first punch by launching a tirade of abuse at me and/or others?

More than me? Depends on what subject.

I threw the first punch? I don't think so. A quick re-read will prove the opposite.

You derided me, claiming I am not 'a technical person,' as if 'sensor specs' are the only way a person may be technically-proficient.

FYI, I have been a casualty (crime/loss) investigator since 1988. There are a lot of 'technical' laws, regulations, and insurance policy provisions that people need to navigate through ... which I have been handling for (probably) longer than you have been doing any 'one' thing in your life.

You seem to live in a world of fantasy; whereas I live in a world of brutal reality.

While you prognosticate about 'what Sony may do with sensors,' I deal on a daily basis with how people (like you) have to adjust to recovering from their devastating losses.

I am glad you admit you, "Wouldn't know the first thing about insurance laws or policies, and (that you'd) fall asleep trying to read the first page."

This means I know 1000x more about insurance law than you (think) you know about cameras/lenses.

If I recall correctly, you initiated a boo-hoo thread topic about your getting beat-up, having your gear stolen, and being stabbed ... after which you blamed 'your insurance company' for not covering your losses.

The truth is, your 'insurance company' isn't to blame, you are. Your lack of 'technical knowledge' regarding insurance policy provisions, applicable coverages (and your self-admitted) 'falling asleep' reading the fine print, all translated into your failure to adequately cover yourself with your own insurance choices. And, yes, what coverages YOU select are your choices.

I strongly suggest you learn to navigate the differences between RCV (Replacement Cost Value) and ACV (Actual Cash Value), as the monetary reimbursement differences can be huge. There are also Endorsement/Exclusion differences, which mean you are either covered when you travel abroad (or not), again based on your choices. Your lack of 'technical knowledge' in these respects was your own undoing. If you ever have any questions in these regards, please feel free to PM me, and I will be happy to guide you in the right direction, out of basic goodwill.

In the meantime, one more thing regarding your self-delusion demands being addressed. Your name, 'Shadowblade,' conjures-up images of Ninja-warriors ... of athleticism, stealth, sword-play, power, and evasion. I think the recent theft of all your gear, leaving you sullied and bereft, proves that the perp was the true 'Shadowblade' (who went in-and-out and escaped with the goods) ... while you were left curled-up in ball, bleeding, only to find your other choices translated to no coverage: nothing.

Perhaps some humility would suit you ... and, perhaps, you should consider a change in your chosen handle?

I think 'Mark' would be more appropriate.

Jack

PS: I am not going to bother with your other posts. All they prove is the differences in sensor performances are becoming more-and-more negligible these days, and are not worth going back-and-forth over ad infinitum, any longer.

The real differences these days now lie in lens selection and personal preferences.

Allow me to enjoy my preferences, and I will allow you to enjoy yours. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 29, 2017, 07:51:30 PM
As the OP, I suggest we stop all of this and return to the main topic, the forthcoming Nikon D850.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 07:55:58 PM
As the OP, I suggest we stop all of this and return to the main topic, the forthcoming Nikon D750.

Isn't it true that anyone who knows any more than what's in the non-announcement is prohibited by employment contract or NDA from posting what they know, and that therefore anything posted here about what the camera will be is pure speculation?

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 29, 2017, 08:02:03 PM
As the OP, I suggest we stop all of this and return to the main topic, the forthcoming Nikon D750.

D850 ... but I agree.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on July 29, 2017, 08:04:32 PM
I will speculate that this will not happen:

https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nikon-Museum-in-Tokyo-89.jpg

IE they will deliver the D850...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 29, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
As the OP, I suggest we stop all of this and return to the main topic, the forthcoming Nikon D850.

At the very least let's focus back to photography rather than laying out personal resumes.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 10:09:36 PM
Yes, the normalization is accomplished by varying the target SNR as I explained above. I now think we probably agree on this point, but your phrasing confused me earlier.

Please explain how you'd do that, since EDR has only RN, and PDR conflates RN and photon noise  [and PRNU, per Bill's advice below]in a quadrature summation. Knowing only RN or EDR won't tell you what the PDR is without additional information that lets you compute the shot noise, which is actually the point of having PDR in the first place. An exception is a very large image; the number is 384 MP.

DxO's published DR results aren't an EDR either - they're also a PDR, based on sensor size and resolution. The main difference between DxO and the other website is the level they chose to use as the noise floor cutoff (1:1 vs 20:1).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 29, 2017, 11:03:28 PM
More than me? Depends on what subject.

I threw the first punch? I don't think so. A quick re-read will prove the opposite.

This was your first post after my very first post in this thread:
Everything you wrote is based on this one sentence, which is not a fact, but 100% pure speculation on your part.

This was your very next post after that:
Your anti-Nikon posture makes you project this "wishful thinking" belief, so you can feel your brand-preference "is in a class by itself," but the fact is Nikon sensors are already best in class at the DX, low-end, and same at the high-end. The reason Sony doesn't take your posture is they are not that small-minded. The truth is, Sony is too big to be affected by the camera market. They have their own unique niche there, but they also have a much bigger role as a commercial supplier of sensors.

And your third:
Your posts belie this claim. You are a Canon fanboy converted to a Sony fanboy.

Quote
You derided me, claiming I am not 'a technical person,' as if 'sensor specs' are the only way a person may be technically-proficient.

Nothing to do with sensor specs, but data interpretation. Something that's common to all scientific fields - the ability to read data tables and charts, to understand and critique the methodology by which the data was derived and to infer conclusions from the data (including the lack of any conclusions, if the data is insufficient or the methodology flaky). It was applicable to hard sciences (of which physics and mathematics - the sciences behind optics - are two) and is equally applicable to optics, medical science, biostatistics and even military science.

So far, you've never produced any data that backs your claims, or any data interpretation beyond 'X is bigger than Y' (without any understanding of what X and Y are actually measuring).

All you've done is screech rhetoric and brandish Lenscore overall scores, like a partisan lawyer or politician, without any understanding of what the scores actually mean (an understanding which no-one has, since Lenscore themselves don't publish how they got their results or what each of their scores/categories actually measures).

Quote
You seem to live in a world of fantasy; whereas I live in a world of brutal reality.

No, you live in a world of man-made clauses, contracts and words. By their very nature, these are mutable, subjective and open to interpretation.

I deal with objective realities. When someone has a blood pressure of 55/30, they have a blood pressure of 55/30, no matter how you want to spin it. When someone has a penetrating injury to their common femoral artery, they have an immediately life-threatening vascular injury, no matter how you want to spin it. The exact words you use to describe the circumstances don't change the situation, the necessary actions or the outcome, and aren't particularly helpful to either the patient or the treating team.

Quote
While you prognosticate about 'what Sony may do with sensors,' I deal on a daily basis with how people (like you) have to adjust to recovering from their devastating losses.

I am glad you admit you, "Wouldn't know the first thing about insurance laws or policies, and (that you'd) fall asleep trying to read the first page."

This means I know 1000x more about insurance law than you (think) you know about cameras/lenses.

If I recall correctly, you initiated a boo-hoo thread topic about your getting beat-up, having your gear stolen, and being stabbed ... after which you blamed 'your insurance company' for not covering your losses.

The truth is, your 'insurance company' isn't to blame, you are. Your lack of 'technical knowledge' regarding insurance policy provisions, applicable coverages (and your self-admitted) 'falling asleep' reading the fine print, all translated into your failure to adequately cover yourself with your own insurance choices. And, yes, what coverages YOU select are your choices.

I strongly suggest you learn to navigate the differences between RCV (Replacement Cost Value) and ACV (Actual Cash Value), as the monetary reimbursement differences can be huge. There are also Endorsement/Exclusion differences, which mean you are either covered when you travel abroad (or not), again based on your choices. Your lack of 'technical knowledge' in these respects was your own undoing. If you ever have any questions in these regards, please feel free to PM me, and I will be happy to guide you in the right direction, out of basic goodwill.

I don't need to know any of that. I pay an agent to do it. Just like you probably pay someone else to perform surgery on you (before you ask, yes, I have performed surgery on myself before).

They screwed up. They got me a policy that didn't do the job.

My travel insurance was meant to cover everything, including cameras. That's why it cost so much. No point having dedicated camera insurance when, unless I'm travelling, it's sitting at home and covered by home and contents insurance anyway.

Quote
In the meantime, one more thing regarding your self-delusion demands being addressed. Your name, 'Shadowblade,' conjures-up images of Ninja-warriors ... of athleticism, stealth, sword-play, power, and evasion. I think the recent theft of all your gear, leaving you sullied and bereft, proves that the perp was the true 'Shadowblade' (who went in-and-out and escaped with the goods) ... while you were left curled-up in ball, bleeding, only to find your other choices translated to no coverage: nothing.

Perhaps some humility would suit you ... and, perhaps, you should consider a change in your chosen handle?

I think 'Mark' would be more appropriate.

One part's a call-sign, the other is a sports team. And, yes, the call-sign was mine. Medical evacuation in the Himalayas, rappelling from helicopters to assess and stabilise injured and sick climbers and hikers before evacuating them to appropriate facilities.

Anyone can get bashed by a group when unarmed and alone.

And why would I choose 'Mark', of all names?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 29, 2017, 11:35:29 PM
DxO's published DR results aren't an EDR either - they're also a PDR, based on sensor size and resolution. The main difference between DxO and the other website is the level they chose to use as the noise floor cutoff (1:1 vs 20:1).

If it's 1:1 it's virtually EDR.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55664246

But forget what you call it, my original question still stands: how do you get from one to the other without some other information?


Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 29, 2017, 11:45:17 PM
And why would I choose 'Mark', of all names?

Your 'book smart' cluelessness is cute (http://nikongear.online/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

I will let you think about that for awhile ... and will respond to the rest at another time ;)

Gotta head out for a bit.

Have a nice weekend.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bclaff on July 29, 2017, 11:54:11 PM
Bill's PDR SNR depends on the resolution of the camera. It's 16000 divided by the image height in pixels. So for the D810 and the a7R, it's 3.26, and for the a7RII, it's 3.02. There is a question of how relevant this definition will be as sensor pitch decreases. When it reaches about 400 MP, PDR will equal EDR, and that doesn't seem right.
At that point I'll simply pixel-bin differently. Should work out OK.
You mentioned that you can convert PDR to EDR and vice-versa. At least that what I think you said. I don't know how to do that. OTOH, given FWC and RN, I can compute both.
Right. There is no easy way from PDR to EDR because PDR is SNR based not read noise based.
With FWC (gain) and RN you can get "close enough for government work", but even FPN can affect the SNR-based PDR.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bclaff on July 29, 2017, 11:56:30 PM
...
I did have a conversation with Bill about a model-based PDR computation, and he said that he sometimes uses one as a sanity check, but he cautioned me not to neglect the contribution of PRNU in the model, which surprised me;' i thought it would be negligible. ]
Perhaps I misspoke; DSNU might matter, PRNU wouldn't. :-)

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 30, 2017, 12:32:58 AM
If it's 1:1 it's virtually EDR.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55664246

But forget what you call it, my original question still stands: how do you get from one to the other without some other information?


Jim

Well, EDR on a whole-sensor level, perhaps. But that's not photosite-level dynamic range - it's a value that's normalised to a standard resolution, which is much more applicable to actual use than the dynamic range of any individual photosite.

I'm not sure there is a formula for direct conversion using the DR value alone. DxO's DR calculation is based off read noise and FWC alone, whereas PDR uses total SNR. Converting between the two, with a simple subtraction to account for the different SNR criteria gets you a working approximation that's good enough for most purposes (a bit like saying that sqrt(2) = 1.41 - it doesn't, but it's close enough for most purposes). But DxO also publish separate charts for SNR at 18% grey results, which takes into account all noise sources. This should be more useful if you need an exact result. Not sure of the exact formula or the exact criteria used for PDR - you'll have to ask him that.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bclaff on July 30, 2017, 01:13:53 AM
Well, EDR on a whole-sensor level, perhaps. But that's not photosite-level dynamic range - it's a value that's normalised to a standard resolution, which is much more applicable to actual use than the dynamic range of any individual photosite.
Engineering DYnamic Range (EDR) is based on pixel level and is not normalized.
I'm not sure there is a formula for direct conversion using the DR value alone.
There isn't.
DxO's DR calculation is based off read noise and FWC alone,
No, just read noise normalized for resolution; FWC is not involved.
whereas PDR uses total SNR. Converting between the two, with a simple subtraction to account for the different SNR criteria gets you a working approximation that's good enough for most purposes (a bit like saying that sqrt(2) = 1.41 - it doesn't, but it's close enough for most purposes).
Often not so close as you think.
But DxO also publish separate charts for SNR at 18% grey results, which takes into account all noise sources. This should be more useful if you need an exact result. Not sure of the exact formula or the exact criteria used for PDR - you'll have to ask him that.
Yeah, I use DxOMark SNR data to compute a DxOMark derived PDR value which I publish on PhotonsToPhotos as a fall back for cameras that I have not tested.

BTW, I think we're pretty far afield; maybe we should return to the D850?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 30, 2017, 01:22:39 AM
Saw that you had replied while I was typing up my previous reply.

Engineering DYnamic Range (EDR) is based on pixel level and is not normalized.

That's what I've been trying to say - DxO doesn't provide the EDR, but basically normalises it around an 8MP sensor, which (for most sensors) gives a higher 'whole image' DR value than the actual EDR.

Quote
There isn't.

I think the confusion was over whether it was possible to calculate PDR using DxO data (which it seems to be) vs doing it from DxO's DR value alone.

Quote
Yeah, I use DxOMark SNR data to compute a DxOMark derived PDR value which I publish on PhotonsToPhotos as a fall back for cameras that I have not tested.

Thought you might. I didn't know whether you performed your own tests or used the data from DxO to calculate PDR values.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: jeremyrh on July 30, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
BTW, I think we're pretty far afield; maybe we should return to the D850?

Please. Pretty please.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bjanes on July 30, 2017, 08:35:18 AM
BTW, I think we're pretty far afield; maybe we should return to the D850?

+1. However, the information that you and Jim have provided was interesting. Furthermore, since no one who can post here has any real data on the D850 it might be best to defer further discussion on the D850 until further data are available.

Bill
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bclaff on July 30, 2017, 11:39:55 AM
... I didn't know whether you performed your own tests or used the data from DxO to calculate PDR values.
I perform my own tests which are provided in the 1st section on PhotonsToPhotos
I make DxOMark Derived calculations which are provided in the 2nd section on PhotonsToPhotos.
The DxOMark values are provided primarily because they have tested more cameras than I have although they also serve as a sort of cross-check.
In the case of any discrepancy I trust my values over those derived from DxOMark data.

I look forward to testing the Nikon D850 some day !  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 30, 2017, 11:54:21 AM
I look forward to testing the Nikon D850 some day !  ;)


Me, too. I have one on order; my dealer will take reservations for unannounced products.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 30, 2017, 12:07:43 PM
Nothing to do with sensor specs, but data interpretation. Something that's common to all scientific fields - the ability to read data tables and charts, to understand and critique the methodology by which the data was derived and to infer conclusions from the data (including the lack of any conclusions, if the data is insufficient or the methodology flaky). It was applicable to hard sciences (of which physics and mathematics - the sciences behind optics - are two) and is equally applicable to optics, medical science, biostatistics and even military science.

And nothing you have posted has 1) had anything to do with the thread topic, the D850, or 2) supported your same tiresome main purpose for posting anything, which is to cheer that Sony "is making 'better sensors' for itself," while selling Nikon 2nd rate sensors. There is nothing "scientific" about your posts either.

As for my understanding of science, I don't have to understand exactly how fuel injection works, or any of the science behind the combustion which propels automobiles, to understand that a car capable of 200mph is faster than a car capable of 150mph.

It is you who doesn't seem to understand that, if two vehicles are similar in top speed, that certain certain suspension features, steering mechanisms, etc. will make the difference in non-linear races. Thus the available options, or even style, of two similar-spec'ed vehicles can become the buying difference for many, not just top speed. Finally, you also don't seem to understand that, if vehicles perform similarly, the difference in what happens in a race will boil down to what the drivers can do behind the wheel ... or that, for pure driving enjoyment, the differences boil down to where each decides to go.

For you to constantly berate Nikon owners with your rhetoric, when their buying motives are completely different from yours, is wearing thin.

Realize that you don't need to follow every Nikon thread, preaching Sony, as if your buying motives = everyone's.
Realize that don't need to copy/paste the results from DxO or anything else either.
Realize that some psychologists might call your obsession 'pathological.'



So far, you've never produced any data that backs your claims, or any data interpretation beyond 'X is bigger than Y' (without any understanding of what X and Y are actually measuring).

You are the one who has never produced any evidence that Sony is keeping its best sensors to itself, while selling 'second-rate sensors' to Nikon.



All you've done is screech rhetoric and brandish Lenscore overall scores, like a partisan lawyer or politician, without any understanding of what the scores actually mean (an understanding which no-one has, since Lenscore themselves don't publish how they got their results or what each of their scores/categories actually measures).

No, all was actually fine and peaceful on this thread until you and your boy showed up.

Why can't you two stay on Sony thread topics ... or is there not enough activity/interest over there to keep you busy?



No, you live in a world of man-made clauses, contracts and words. By their very nature, these are mutable, subjective and open to interpretation.

Geeze, how far off-topic can we go? ::)

You don't think science changes?
That new technologies emerge, while others become dated?
You don't think scientists 'interpret data' differently?

Hell, even the medical field is subject to constant change. Do all doctors prescribe the same antibiotic for the same pathogen? Do not some bacteria develop resistance to certain antibiotics (even only in certain regions of the world), to where an antibiotic choice that worked last year will no longer work this year? Do you think doctors in China treat gonorrhea the same as doctors in London?

You are confusing math with science; they're not the same thing. Math is unchanging; science is ever-changing.

Have you ever heard of "evolution?" This phenomenon is why pretty much why new medicines constantly have to be created by science.

Finally, man-made contracts, that are well-written, don't leave much to interpretations ... and they are still legally-binding ... and are as germane to your life as are scientific laws.



I deal with objective realities. When someone has a blood pressure of 55/30, they have a blood pressure of 55/30, no matter how you want to spin it. When someone has a penetrating injury to their common femoral artery, they have an immediately life-threatening vascular injury, no matter how you want to spin it. The exact words you use to describe the circumstances don't change the situation, the necessary actions or the outcome, and aren't particularly helpful to either the patient or the treating team.

Objective realities? More nonsense. It sounds like you are attempting to live in a fantasy, where you make "every case the same."

To begin with, blood pressure values change daily--even throughout the day. They can change from circumstance, drug/alcohol use, even after a few cups of coffee. To say, "His blood pressure is 55/30," describes a very temporary situation. What is objective at the moment ... can change very rapidly. He will either have it raised ... soon ... or perish.

And also, to what extent has the femoral artery been penetrated? Just nicked? Completely severed?

All of these ever-changing factors matter. Thus it is all 'open to interpretation' ... as are the many possible ways to deal with these maladies.

Which is why some doctors are called "quacks," because they fail to interpret correctly, or make bad choices, while others are indispensable ... because they read/interpret/prescribe correctly.



I don't need to know any of that. I pay an agent to do it. Just like you probably pay someone else to perform surgery on you (before you ask, yes, I have performed surgery on myself before).

Apparently, you did.

Your failure to know = your failure to buy the right product.

Your a$$umption that your agent knew, or cared, was your problem. There are quacks in insurance too.

(And, BTW, I have performed surgery on myself. Always been a "Soldier of Fortune" type. One of the great old books on the subject: Do It Yourself Medicine (https://www.amazon.com/Do-Yourself-Medicine-Antibiotics-Prescriptions/dp/0873649184).

I have purchased non-steroid, non-narcotic medicines, from all over the world, for almost 20 years. Mostly used them to treat the dogs I raised, but used them on myself too. Sutures and staples too, as I am accident-prone, and pretty active ;))



They screwed up. They got me a policy that didn't do the job.

My travel insurance was meant to cover everything, including cameras. That's why it cost so much. No point having dedicated camera insurance when, unless I'm travelling, it's sitting at home and covered by home and contents insurance anyway.

No, you screwed up: in your insurance choice and in your choice of an agent.

For that matter, most home-owner policies do cover theft abroad, which are all (as you say) "open to interpretation."

With a well-written insurance policy, read by a person familiar with the available coverage options, you are protected in the way you really want to be protected.

Which also brings us back to RCV and ACV coverages. (If your agent really did fail you, you could make a claim against his ENO carrier ... Errors and Omissions ... depending on the documented paper trail of your inquiry/requests.)



One part's a call-sign, the other is a sports team. And, yes, the call-sign was mine. Medical evacuation in the Himalayas, rappelling from helicopters to assess and stabilise injured and sick climbers and hikers before evacuating them to appropriate facilities.

Sounds adventurous.



Anyone can get bashed by a group when unarmed and alone.

One reason why I am seldom both ...



And why would I choose 'Mark', of all names?

Again, your innocence is cute ... and part of the reason you were 'chosen,' I suspect.

For the slow, the suggestion that you change your name to "Mark" was a play on words.

The perp who cut you, and took your belongings, was the true 'Shadowblade,' while you were ... the 'mark.'

Hence the name-change suggestion ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 30, 2017, 12:08:07 PM
Now then, if we could please get back to the D850 ... thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 30, 2017, 07:46:02 PM
One more off topic for me. I think it's very bad form to put down someone because of their misfortunes. John, don't know if you travel or walk through sketchy areas, but I can tell you one thing for certain...no matter how good one thinks they are in self defense or the likes...you can get rolled in the blink of an eye. To make fun of ones misfortunes on the photo board just crosses a line that should not be crossed.

Just had to say this as it did not sit well with me.

Back to regular programming and discussing how the 850 will suck. :o
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2017, 08:47:56 PM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:

- for D800/D810 owners: what would it take for NOT to uograde to the D850?
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?
- for non Nikon owners: what would convince you to dump your current brand equipment and buy a D850 instead?

As a first category person, I would probably not upgrade if it didn't have the AF of the D5 and at least a 25% increase in resolution without loss of base ISO DR.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: alan_b on July 30, 2017, 09:18:52 PM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:

- for D800/D810 owners: what would it take for NOT to uograde to the D850?
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?
- for non Nikon owners: what would convince you to dump your current brand equipment and buy a D850 instead?

As a first category person, I would probably not upgrade if it didn't have the AF of the D5 and at least a 25% increase in resolution without loss of base ISO DR.

Cheers,
Bernard

I have D800 & 810s, mostly tripod-bound & manual-focus.  Things I'm looking for in no particular order:
Cleaner live view in low light
More flexible spit view (X/Y/arbitrary comparison)
Lower base ISO and/or better/cleaner dynamic range/color/tonality
Masked viewfinder with full-frame capture
Noticeably higher resolution
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: jeremyrh on July 31, 2017, 01:33:15 AM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:

- for D800/D810 owners: what would it take for NOT to uograde to the D850?
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?
- for non Nikon owners: what would convince you to dump your current brand equipment and buy a D850 instead?

As a first category person, I would probably not upgrade if it didn't have the AF of the D5 and at least a 25% increase in resolution without loss of base ISO DR.

Cheers,
Bernard

Also "first category person" :-) - the price tag will play a role! But apart from that an improved AF is a must for me. As an 800E owner, a lot of my wish list is provided by the 810 which I held off buying for budget reasons.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: myotis on July 31, 2017, 03:03:37 AM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?

As a non-D85x0 owner, I don't need convinced.

I have been waiting for the D850 to replace my D600. I am assuming image quality will be as good or better than existing D8x0 cameras, and I have been waiting for a tilting screen and 4k video. Video isn't my primary reason for buying one, but I will struggle to pay for a D8x0 of any model, so it needs to be multi-purpose. So far the D850 would seem to deliver everything I have waited/wished/dreamed for, including faster fps making it that bit more versatile for Wildlife.

Now, if Nikon only bring out a decently designed Nikon V4 to replace my V2s, it will be a perfect 100th anniversary year for me.

Cheers,

Graham

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 31, 2017, 08:22:45 AM
Back to one of my original fears about the D850, which that they will deliver higher ISOs for low-light, but be forced to abandon the ISO 64 that is in the the D810. If they do that, lower the dynamic range,  I see no reason to purchase the D850. In that case, I will buy a 2nd D810 or perhaps again look at the two mirrorless MF cameras. OR... see what Sony offers us.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 31, 2017, 10:27:01 AM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:

- for D800/D810 owners: what would it take for NOT to uograde to the D850?
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?
- for non Nikon owners: what would convince you to dump your current brand equipment and buy a D850 instead?



I'm going to buy it no matter what, if only to test it, but what I'd like to see is:


One-push EFCS
Global shutter (Failing that, ES with scan time faster than 1/125 second)
100 MP
FWC = 80000 e- (If you have to lower the ISO to do that, fine)
Hybrid finder, with silent shutter mirror-locked up mode
IBIS

Jim

Title: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on July 31, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
I'm going to buy it no matter what, if only to test it, but what I'd like to see is:

One-push EFCS
Global shutter (Failing that, ES with scan time faster than 1/125 second)
100 MP
FWC = 80000 e- (If you have to lower the ISO to do that, fine)
Hybrid finder, with silent shutter mirror-locked up mode
IBIS
A worthy but very ambitious list. In particular, 100MP x 80,000 e- FWC = 8x10^12 e- total charge capacity, probably well over double the charge per unit area of any current sensor, so requiring substantially deeper wells. (Or incremental read-out during exposure, to allow extrapolating values for wells that fill-up.)

I am curious about the rumored hybrid OVF/EVF, as a way of enhancing Live View usability while preserving the OVF, which could be a good transitional step.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 31, 2017, 11:44:15 AM
A worthy but very ambitious list. In particular, 100MP x 80,000 e- FWC = 8x10^12 e- total charge capacity, probably well over double the charge per unit area of any current sensor, so requiring substantially deeper wells. (Or incremental read-out during exposure, to allow extrapolating values for wells that fill-up.)

I know it's not (all) gonna happen, but I can dream, can't I? WRT FWC, I'm thinking switched capacitors like in DR-Pix sensors, maybe starting at ISO 32 and switching to high-conversion gain mode at ISO 200 or so.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: John Cothron on July 31, 2017, 01:38:20 PM
Back to the D850 and its speculative specs with 3 questions:

- for D800/D810 owners: what would it take for NOT to uograde to the D850?
- for Nikon non D8x0 owners: what would convince you to upgrade your camera to a D850?
- for non Nikon owners: what would convince you to dump your current brand equipment and buy a D850 instead?

As a first category person, I would probably not upgrade if it didn't have the AF of the D5 and at least a 25% increase in resolution without loss of base ISO DR.

Cheers,
Bernard

I may well be the only person here that is solidly in the 3rd scenario.  I've never shot anything BUT canon, unless you count MF film.  I've been reading the thread with interest (or at least portions of it) because I am curious as to what other brands offer.  Sony most definitely has put out some nice products, but I suspect I'm in the minority that I prefer (at this point) an OVF.  I'm not saying the EVF doesn't do what it needs to do but it is a feel thing for me.  The biggest hurdle I would have is glass, like most I suspect.  I have a rather full complement of Zeiss glass in Canon EF mount and I wouldn't likely to go through the expense of  changing glass.

It might be different if there was a night and day difference in the performance of bodies these days, but I just don't think there are.  I understand the whole DR argument, and while I run into that issue from time to time those instances are generally not something even an extra stop of DR would resolve so I just don't feel particularly limited by it.  Now if I could make the jump to more DR with a Nikon body and not have the glass issue to resolve I might be tempted.  I don't care much for the adapter route either. 


Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 31, 2017, 01:51:45 PM
And nothing you have posted has 1) had anything to do with the thread topic, the D850,

I think you'll find it's very relevant, since it concerns:

a) the source of the D810's sensor, and the likely availability (or not) of that same source for the D850
b) the potential for the D850, in the absence of said source, to beat the performance of one of the D850's likely competitors (the other being the 5Ds2), given Nikon's past record at designing its own sensors

After all, many people considering the D850 - myself included - would weigh it up against its likely competitors, with all its pros and cons, both current and potential.

Here's the post:

Very different situation now.

The 36MP sensor used in the D800, D810, A7r and others is a Sony design (with small tweaks for each company). Back in 2012, Sony had a sensor, but no viable full-frame camera business (A-mount was dying even then). They also had a paying customer who could put these sensors into bodies, sell a lot of them and raise awareness of the Exmor (and Sony sensors in general) at the same time. It made sense to sell the sensor.

Sony wouldn't be ready to re-enter the full-frame camera business for almost two years. But the strategy worked. By the time the A7r was ready for launch, everyone knew about Exmor, everyone knew about Sony's sensor advantage and there was a large number of Canon non-action photographers - mostly ex-5D2 shooters - ready to move to a body with a better sensor, if they could just take their existing lenses with them. It sold like anything, despite the lack of native lenses available at the time - Nikon and the D800 had done the advertising for them, and the offer of a free Metabones adaptor with every A7 or A7r body sold only sweetened the deal and made it easier for frustrated Canon shooters to jump ship.

The situation now is different. Sony now has a major stake in the full-frame camera market, and every D850 sensor sold to Nikon is one less potential A9r or A7r3 sale. Ever wondered why no-one else is using the 42MP sensor, whereas several others have access to the (now second-line) 36MP sensor?

Therefore, Sony won't sell Nikon - or anyone else - their best sensor. They will sell their second-best sensor, so the 42MP sensor may make an appearance (since a next-generation version can't be far off). Also, if Nikon designs the sensor, Sony will make it for them - if they don't, then someone else will, and better to make something out of every Nikon body sold than nothing at all. But they won't sell them the best Sony design, and Nikon would be equally dumb to try to contract Sony to design it for them (there's no way Sony would design a sensor for Nikon to be better than their own top-of-the-line sensor - any advancements they made in designing that sensor would certainly make it into the Sony sensor too).

Nikon itself doesn't have a great track record with designing high-resolution, high-DR sensors. Their successes in that area have come courtesy of Toshiba (D7200) and Sony (D800/D810). And Sony now owns Toshiba's imaging division. So, Nikon would likely have to look for someone else to design the sensor. And, so far, no-one's managed to combine high resolution and high DR in the same 24x36mm package that Sony has.

Which leads to this - there is very little chance that the D850's sensor will match or surpass the A7r3's or A9r's sensor. It will be a good sensor, but it almost certainly won't beat the Sony. The Sony body will contain Sony's top-of-the-line sensor. The D850 won't. It may contain Sony's second-best sensor, or a Nikon-designed sensor made by Sony, but it won't contain Sony's best. The only way the D850 can have a better sensor is if they manage to find a third party to design one that beats Sony's best (in other words, doing basically what Sony did last time with the D800 sensor), which is a hard ask.

I laid out my arguments and my reasoning behind it. It is, by definition, not provable until all three companies release their products, so, until then, logical reasoning and extrapolation to form hypotheses are the next best thing.

None of which you even bothered to rebut, beyond saying 'It's not true' in about 200 different ways, without actually bothering to say why you think it's not true, or what events or evidence exists to support your case.

Quote
2) supported your same tiresome main purpose for posting anything, which is to cheer that Sony "is making 'better sensors' for itself," while selling Nikon 2nd rate sensors. There is nothing "scientific" about your posts either.

I've quoted sources and figures, with links. You're free to look at those sources yourself, and argue for or against their validity. As is everyone else here. What evidence have you quoted? Only your own rhetoric, and attacking the man rather than the argument.

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As for my understanding of science, I don't have to understand exactly how fuel injection works, or any of the science behind the combustion which propels automobiles, to understand that a car capable of 200mph is faster than a car capable of 150mph.

What you don't know is how they were measured. Your source doesn't say. It doesn't say how they measured it, what they actually measured or what the results were.

For all you know, they measured their terminal velocity falling from a plane, when what you really want to know is how fast it can go on an actual road.

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It is you who doesn't seem to understand that, if two vehicles are similar in top speed, that certain certain suspension features, steering mechanisms, etc. will make the difference in non-linear races. Thus the available options, or even style, of two similar-spec'ed vehicles can become the buying difference for many, not just top speed. Finally, you also don't seem to understand that, if vehicles perform similarly, the difference in what happens in a race will boil down to what the drivers can do behind the wheel ... or that, for pure driving enjoyment, the differences boil down to where each decides to go.

I've only talked about sensors and the measurable aspects of their performance.

I haven't mentioned other aspects of performance at all. That's a completely separate argument. And it largely depends how much of the D5 makes it into the D850, and whether Sony's next-gen high-resolution body is more A9 or more A7r2.

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For you to constantly berate Nikon owners with your rhetoric, when their buying motives are completely different from yours, is wearing thin.

I challenge you to find one quote of me doing that.

Search all you like. You won't find one.

Unless you consider an argument against Nikon's product, strategy or future a personal attack against you. Which, come to think of it, wouldn't surprise me. Or many others here, I would think.

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Realize that you don't need to follow every Nikon thread, preaching Sony, as if your buying motives = everyone's.

I do the same in Canon threads. And in Sony ones. Anything concerning new gear and product development that interests me. I've criticised Sony plenty as well.

Clearly, you only read the Nikon ones.

I was very excited when the D800 was first released. It offered something that the 5D2 sorely lacked, and Sony was barely a serious camera company at that time. The only reason I didn't buy it was because there were inadequate tilt-shift options and, at the time, Canon lenses (many of which had recently been upgraded) had a clear edge over Nikon ones (many of which were older-generation).

I would have no problem buying a Nikon system, if it performed as required and had a clear upgrade path into the future. Or that of any other manufacturer, for that matter. But they still don't have decent tilt-shifts (apart from the new 19mm, but that doesn't replace the crucial 24mm focal length for landscapes and cityscapes) and, unlike both Canon and Sony, don't have a clear plan for what happens after SLR or for an ongoing source of top-level high resolution/high DR sensors.

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Realize that don't need to copy/paste the results from DxO or anything else either.

It's called evidence - something that's valuable in both academia and argument.

No evidence, or evidence from a questionable source? Then it's just rhetoric.

Quote
Realize that some psychologists might call your obsession 'pathological.'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

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You are the one who has never produced any evidence that Sony is keeping its best sensors to itself, while selling 'second-rate sensors' to Nikon.

Until you find someone leaking from either company, you won't get direct proof.

So, what do you do in the absence of direct proof that isn't forthcoming? You put forth a case using reasoning and logic, explaining how each step leads to the next, as well as the motive for each party in undertaking that step.

Which is exactly what I've done. So far, your only counterargument consists of, 'It's wrong'.

If you have a better hypothesis, put it out there, and let's see if it can hold up to the weight of counterargument.

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Geeze, how far off-topic can we go? ::)

You don't think science changes?
That new technologies emerge, while others become dated?
You don't think scientists 'interpret data' differently?

Knowledge changes and is updated. The facts themselves don't - we just learn more about them.

The Earth didn't start orbiting its barycentre with the sun just because we discovered it. It always did. Only that, prior to that, we hadn't discovered it yet. Knowledge changed. The fact didn't.

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Hell, even the medical field is subject to constant change. Do all doctors prescribe the same antibiotic for the same pathogen? Do not some bacteria develop resistance to certain antibiotics (even only in certain regions of the world), to where an antibiotic choice that worked last year will no longer work this year? Do you think doctors in China treat gonorrhea the same as doctors in London?

No. But you're confusing facts with generalisations.

'S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin' isn't a fact. It's a generalisation, based on the pattern of antibiotic sensitivities for a given organism, in a given population, at a given time. 'This strain of S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin' is a fact that's easily provable or disprovable. But it takes time to prove it. Generalisations exist because you often need to start treatment straight away, with something that will probably work, while you wait for solid proof. But they're nothing more than an educated guess.

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You are confusing math with science; they're not the same thing. Math is unchanging; science is ever-changing.

You're confusing facts with knowledge, and science with knowledge. Science is a process, not a library. The library is constantly updated; the process by which it happens remains the same.

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Have you ever heard of "evolution?" This phenomenon is why pretty much why new medicines constantly have to be created by science.

Your point being?

The mechanisms of antibiotic resistance are demonstrated fact. There are likely other mechanisms that haven't been discovered yet, but the ones which have been are proven and unlikely to change any time soon. 'X bacterium is always sensitive to Y antibiotic' isn't a fact, isn't provable and no-one would claim that it was - it holds only until someone finds a strain that isn't sensitive to it.

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Finally, man-made contracts, that are well-written, don't leave much to interpretations ... and they are still legally-binding ... and are as germane to your life as are scientific laws.

The fact that it's relevant doesn't make it a technical or scientific field.

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Objective realities? More nonsense. It sounds like you are attempting to live in a fantasy, where you make "every case the same."

To begin with, blood pressure values change daily--even throughout the day. They can change from circumstance, drug/alcohol use, even after a few cups of coffee. To say, "His blood pressure is 55/30," describes a very temporary situation. What is objective at the moment ... can change very rapidly. He will either have it raised ... soon ... or perish.

And also, to what extent has the femoral artery been penetrated? Just nicked? Completely severed?

All of these ever-changing factors matter. Thus it is all 'open to interpretation' ... as are the many possible ways to deal with these maladies.

If nothing else, this just shows how little you know about medicine.

'Blood pressure of 55/30' may be temporary, but it doesn't mean that it's not true. A blood pressure of 55/30 means a blood pressure of 55/30. How you interpret that fact depends on the clinical situation and the patient in front of you, but it doesn't change the fact that, at that point in time, the blood pressure was 55/30 - it's an objective measurement.

A penetrating injury to the common femoral artery is always a life-threatening situation, whether it's just nicked or completely severed. You can lose litres of blood into the thigh before clotting, extravascular pressure or a drop in central blood pressure stem the bleeding, with haemodynamic changes that can affect the end-organ perfusion of other vital organs. The way you interpret or prioritise the fact that the CFA has been injured depends on the context, but it doesn't change the underlying fact - that the CFA has been injured.

Not like subjective laws and contracts, which can be argued about for weeks.

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Apparently, you did.

Your failure to know = your failure to buy the right product.

Your a$$umption that your agent knew, or cared, was your problem. There are quacks in insurance too.

One of the biggest travel agents in Australia. A reputable company. No different to going to the most reputable hospital in the country and expecting first-level treatment.

But I'll remember that - next time anything happens to you, we'll know who to blame.

After all, you should have done your research and looked after yourself better.

Who knows? Maybe you shouldn't have eaten at that top restaurant whose chef wasn't washing his hands and whose waiter was spitting into the souffle. Catching hepatitis was your own fault. It's always the victim's fault, isn't it? Should have done your research better, rather than relying on reputation.

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No, you screwed up: in your insurance choice and in your choice of an agent.

For that matter, most home-owner policies do cover theft abroad, which are all (as you say) "open to interpretation."

With a well-written insurance policy, read by a person familiar with the available coverage options, you are protected in the way you really want to be protected.

Which also brings us back to RCV and ACV coverages. (If your agent really did fail you, you could make a claim against his ENO carrier ... Errors and Omissions ... depending on the documented paper trail of your inquiry/requests.)

Hence my current legal proceedings against them.

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One reason why I am seldom both ...

You do realise that you can't walk around packing heat in most parts of the world? And, even where you can, you can't just bring guns and ammunition with you from home, through multiple airports and countries?

I've been through countries where I both carried firearms, and used them. This time, I was attacked 10 seconds out of my hotel on the first day. Couldn't have obtained protection even if it were legal.


Quote
Again, your innocence is cute ... and part of the reason you were 'chosen,' I suspect.

'Innocence'? More like I have no interest in wordplay, just as you have no interest in evidence.

The same thing's taken me through 127 other countries without an incident where I came off worse off, including every country in mainland Africa.

And, with a name ending in '007', you're in no position to complain about high-falutin' names. At least I earned both parts of mine.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on July 31, 2017, 02:12:32 PM
Back to the D850.

Looking more and more now that the 850 sensor will basically be a full frame D500 with a few D5 similar features.

More oriented to sports and action and high ISO. 8 to 10 fps.

D500 is not the best at best at base ISO but instead seems to score better as the ISO climbs.

Looking more and more that the 64 base ISO will be replaced with a 100.

Paul Caldwell





Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 31, 2017, 02:14:06 PM
And this comes out:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-d850-likely-use-new-sony-46-megapixel-ff-sensor/ (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-d850-likely-use-new-sony-46-megapixel-ff-sensor/)

Still a rumour, but at least it's something more substantial.

Possibly a sweet spot for wildlife photography, if it can hit 8-10fps - 46MP lets you focus using one point and crop around it as the subject moves and changes posture, giving you 20.4 MP if you crop all the way to 1.5x, or more if you don't have to crop as heavily. They'll need a better 200-400, though.

As I said, not Sony's top-of-the-line sensor. Probably the second-best. They've likely got a better one coming within months, in the A7r3 or A9r. We already know they've been working on something in the 60-80MP range.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 31, 2017, 04:43:30 PM
And this comes out:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-d850-likely-use-new-sony-46-megapixel-ff-sensor/ (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-d850-likely-use-new-sony-46-megapixel-ff-sensor/)

Still a rumour, but at least it's something more substantial.

Would you call this "data interpretation," "scientific methodology," or "objective truth?"

What, exactly, is this link "more substantial" than?



Possibly a sweet spot for wildlife photography, if it can hit 8-10fps - 46MP lets you focus using one point and crop around it as the subject moves and changes posture, giving you 20.4 MP if you crop all the way to 1.5x, or more if you don't have to crop as heavily. They'll need a better 200-400, though.

Same question as my first line above ... Would you call this data interpretation, scientific methodology, or objective truth? ... since you say you only deal in facts, data, and objective truths.

All these if-clauses, possiblys, and prognostications smell more like 'your opinion' to me.



As I said, not Sony's top-of-the-line sensor. Probably the second-best. They've likely got a better one coming within months, in the A7r3 or A9r. We already know they've been working on something in the 60-80MP range.

Same lead question as the above.

The truth is you're guessing, wishing, and 'thinking out loud,' same as everyone else.

Since your guess is no better than anyone's, my guess is the Nikon D850 will be the single-most talked about DSLR for the remainder of this year.

When it releases, I also predict the D850 will out-sell any Sony camera for the remainder of the year, with better specs, features, and lens supplementation ... with a sensor equal to or (hey, I can hope too) better than what is currently being offered today.

If at some undisclosed time next year, Sony comes out with a marginally-better sensor, then what we call this is "incremental progress," which is to be expected.

That won't change the fact the D850 will have the best sensor in its class the day it's released.

It will also take Sony a lot longer than a few months to achieve Nikon's lens portfolio, if they ever can.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on July 31, 2017, 06:07:50 PM
I think you'll find it's very relevant, since it concerns:

a) the source of the D810's sensor, and the likely availability (or not) of that same source for the D850
b) the potential for the D850, in the absence of said source, to beat the performance of one of the D850's likely competitors (the other being the 5Ds2), given Nikon's past record at designing its own sensors

After all, many people considering the D850 - myself included - would weigh it up against its likely competitors, with all its pros and cons, both current and potential.

Here's the post:

I laid out my arguments and my reasoning behind it. It is, by definition, not provable until all three companies release their products, so, until then, logical reasoning and extrapolation to form hypotheses are the next best thing.

None of which you even bothered to rebut, beyond saying 'It's not true' in about 200 different ways, without actually bothering to say why you think it's not true, or what events or evidence exists to support your case.

I've quoted sources and figures, with links. You're free to look at those sources yourself, and argue for or against their validity. As is everyone else here. What evidence have you quoted? Only your own rhetoric, and attacking the man rather than the argument.

What you don't know is how they were measured. Your source doesn't say. It doesn't say how they measured it, what they actually measured or what the results were.

For all you know, they measured their terminal velocity falling from a plane, when what you really want to know is how fast it can go on an actual road.

I've only talked about sensors and the measurable aspects of their performance.

Boy you ramble-on a lot. I think I've met my match.

The main gist of this palaver is that, "because I can't disprove your ramblings about Sony sensors," you're going to keep rambling.

So be it.

Of course you only talk about sensor performance, because the rest of Sony's amenities are lacking. Where would they be without the help of Zeiss and Voigtlander?



I haven't mentioned other aspects of performance at all. That's a completely separate argument. And it largely depends how much of the D5 makes it into the D850, and whether Sony's next-gen high-resolution body is more A9 or more A7r2.

I challenge you to find one quote of me doing that.

Search all you like. You won't find one.

Unless you consider an argument against Nikon's product, strategy or future a personal attack against you. Which, come to think of it, wouldn't surprise me. Or many others here, I would think.

I do the same in Canon threads. And in Sony ones. Anything concerning new gear and product development that interests me. I've criticised Sony plenty as well.

Clearly, you only read the Nikon ones.

I was very excited when the D800 was first released. It offered something that the 5D2 sorely lacked, and Sony was barely a serious camera company at that time. The only reason I didn't buy it was because there were inadequate tilt-shift options and, at the time, Canon lenses (many of which had recently been upgraded) had a clear edge over Nikon ones (many of which were older-generation).

More palaver. Sorry, don't have the time to engage.



I would have no problem buying a Nikon system, if it performed as required and had a clear upgrade path into the future. Or that of any other manufacturer, for that matter. But they still don't have decent tilt-shifts (apart from the new 19mm, but that doesn't replace the crucial 24mm focal length for landscapes and cityscapes) and, unlike both Canon and Sony, don't have a clear plan for what happens after SLR or for an ongoing source of top-level high resolution/high DR sensors.

I would have no problem buying a Sony system either ... if they only had decent glass in the areas I prefer also. But they don't.

As you mentioned in the above paragraph-rant, I don't even bother to read about Sony ... and that's because I am happy with my current gear.

Yet you're always here on Nikon threads preaching 'Sony' ... as if you're "trying to convince" everybody else ... or yourself ;)



It's called evidence - something that's valuable in both academia and argument.

Evidence also useful in building case trials, which I have been doing in the physical world, as an investigator, probably longer than you been daydreaming on the internet, and probably longer than you've ever done anything else. In fact, since before the internet, cell phones, etc.



No evidence, or evidence from a questionable source? Then it's just rhetoric.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Until you find someone leaking from either company, you won't get direct proof.

So, what do you do in the absence of direct proof that isn't forthcoming? You put forth a case using reasoning and logic, explaining how each step leads to the next, as well as the motive for each party in undertaking that step.

Which is exactly what I've done. So far, your only counterargument consists of, 'It's wrong'.

If you have a better hypothesis, put it out there, and let's see if it can hold up to the weight of counterargument.

Knowledge changes and is updated. The facts themselves don't - we just learn more about them.

The Earth didn't start orbiting its barycentre with the sun just because we discovered it. It always did. Only that, prior to that, we hadn't discovered it yet. Knowledge changed. The fact didn't.

Sorry, but this smacks more addled palaver. And you have your understanding exactly backwards.



No. But you're confusing facts with generalisations.

'S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin' isn't a fact. It's a generalisation, based on the pattern of antibiotic sensitivities for a given organism, in a given population, at a given time. 'This strain of S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin' is a fact that's easily provable or disprovable. But it takes time to prove it. Generalisations exist because you often need to start treatment straight away, with something that will probably work, while you wait for solid proof. But they're nothing more than an educated guess.

You're confusing facts with knowledge, and science with knowledge. Science is a process, not a library. The library is constantly updated; the process by which it happens remains the same.

Again, sorry, but now you're entering into my world, and it is you who are confused.

A fact is something that is measurable, observable, and repeatable; that's it. A fact is different from a truth.

There are also historical 'facts' (a single occurrence) versus measurable, observable, repeatable facts.

You're confusing the definition of facts with the definition of truths.

Truths are timeless; facts are not. Measurable facts can and do change, quite often, usually over time however.

In fact (pardon the pun):




Your point being?

The mechanisms of antibiotic resistance are demonstrated fact. There are likely other mechanisms that haven't been discovered yet, but the ones which have been are proven and unlikely to change any time soon. 'X bacterium is always sensitive to Y antibiotic' isn't a fact, isn't provable and no-one would claim that it was - it holds only until someone finds a strain that isn't sensitive to it.

Were you better-versed in logic, you would see your self-contradiction right here of your previous utterance.



The fact that it's relevant doesn't make it a technical or scientific field.

Huh? :o



If nothing else, this just shows how little you know about medicine.

You've also shown that you know nothing about logic.



'Blood pressure of 55/30' may be temporary, but it doesn't mean that it's not true. A blood pressure of 55/30 means a blood pressure of 55/30. How you interpret that fact depends on the clinical situation and the patient in front of you, but it doesn't change the fact that, at that point in time, the blood pressure was 55/30 - it's an objective measurement.

A penetrating injury to the common femoral artery is always a life-threatening situation, whether it's just nicked or completely severed. You can lose litres of blood into the thigh before clotting, extravascular pressure or a drop in central blood pressure stem the bleeding, with haemodynamic changes that can affect the end-organ perfusion of other vital organs. The way you interpret or prioritise the fact that the CFA has been injured depends on the context, but it doesn't change the underlying fact - that the CFA has been injured.

What's actually funny is that you are underscoring my point here, not your original one.

You're changing course as you go along, to clarify, which was my point, not yours.



Not like subjective laws and contracts, which can be argued about for weeks.

Again, shows how little you know about the best of contracts. Logic binds them. Only when poor logic (read, poor wording) is used is there ambiguity.

To repeat myself, if you don't think courses of treatment for particular maladies are "subjective," or "argued about," then you're not being realistic.



One of the biggest travel agents in Australia. A reputable company. No different to going to the most reputable hospital in the country and expecting first-level treatment.

But I'll remember that - next time anything happens to you, we'll know who to blame.

After all, you should have done your research and looked after yourself better.

Finally we agree on something. If I sign a contract, without reading it properly, then yes I am the one to blame.

However, if I trust somebody to do something for me, by granting him the authority to act in my stead, as a licensed professional, and he fails to get the job done, then that is another matter. Same as you.



Who knows? Maybe you shouldn't have eaten at that top restaurant whose chef wasn't washing his hands and whose waiter was spitting into the souffle. Catching hepatitis was your own fault. It's always the victim's fault, isn't it? Should have done your research better, rather than relying on reputation.

Another invalid comparison, and more palaver, but it's such an incorrect belief system that it demands comment.

Keep in mind that the the standard for all legality is "the reasonable man."

I do not have the microscopic equipment to test the food I eat for microbes. That is an "unrealistic" expectation of consumers to equip themselves with microscopic testing equipment prior to eating a simple meal.

However, if somebody hands me a document to sign, written in a language I understand, and in letters I can read with my naked eye, then it is "reasonable" to expect me to read it. Therefore, my failure to read the fine print, or my failure to interpret the information correctly, is my own failure. As it was yours.



Hence my current legal proceedings against them.

Best of luck on that, seriously.

I would be interested in reading the particulars ...



You do realise that you can't walk around packing heat in most parts of the world? And, even where you can, you can't just bring guns and ammunition with you from home, through multiple airports and countries?

Can't? As in breaking a physical law of time/space ... or an inconvenient one of convention ... or just the limitations of your own awareness?

Again, can't?



I've been through countries where I both carried firearms, and used them. This time, I was attacked 10 seconds out of my hotel on the first day. Couldn't have obtained protection even if it were legal.

In all seriousness, I don't wish bad on you or anyone else. A few years ago, a Navy seal (on this board I think) actually lost his life in Mexico. It can happen to even the best of us ... or, even more likely, the less aware or less vigilant. But, regardless, I wouldn't wish harm on you or anyone else.

I see enough of it every day.



'Innocence'? More like I have no interest in wordplay, just as you have no interest in evidence.

Sounds more like you have no sense of humor or are clever in some ways, not so much in others.

I have no interest in evidence?
Lol I have been dealing in nothing but evidence for most of my life.

Real evidence, the kind you have to go outside and collect ... sometimes in bad neighborhoods ... at night ... or the wee hours of the morning ... spying on people, documenting their activities (whenever your investigation reveals them to be active) ... interviewing witnesses from all walks of life ... measuring skidmarks, hiring forensic experts, storing evidence according to law ... checking for evidence of forced entry ... harvesting security footage placed where a loss occurred (or was alleged to have occurred) ... harvesting intel through pretext, a professional con (when legal) ... whatever it takes ... and reporting these facts ('this evidence') to my principals.

Can only chuckle at you here ...

What I can also do, however, is relax, speculate, and hope for something better when I am not working :D



The same thing's taken me through 127 other countries without an incident where I came off worse off, including every country in mainland Africa.

Better luck next time.



And, with a name ending in '007', you're in no position to complain about high-falutin' names. At least I earned both parts of mine.

Not high-falutin', earned.

As a licensed investigator, I'm quite sure I've earned my right to the 007 epithet more than you've ever earned the handle of "Shadowblade."

Or are you a licensed Ninja? If so, how many years? lol

Indeed, based on your thread topic a few months back, you deserve to have that fantasy-description revoked at this point, sport.



(Can we go back to being adults now? I've wasted 2 hours on this. I promise the rest of the viewers to speak of nothing but the D850 from this point forward ... after it arrives.)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Geods on July 31, 2017, 09:59:06 PM
D800e owner...

No one has mentioned IBIS or high resolution mode. I have an Olympus OMD EM-1 Mk II. While few think of its high resolution mode as substantial, I think it is fantastic and puts resultant images into the high end FF arena, albeit from a tripod only. The Pentax K-1 has a sensor shifting high resolution mode as well as IBIS and it costs significantly less than the D810. I hope, amongst the other reported/speculated improvements, that the D850 will offer IBIS and a high resolution mode that will allow it to compete with the DMF crowd and their 100MP sensors. Many people use their high resolution Nikons as a landscape photography tools and shoot them from a tripod, so this would make great sense. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on July 31, 2017, 10:17:16 PM
Would you call this "data interpretation," "scientific methodology," or "objective truth?"

I never said it was anything other than a rumour. I did not pretend to present it as objective truth.

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What, exactly, is this link "more substantial" than?

Than any other plausible rumour which has come out before. There were previous hints at its resolution (was it 42MP? 46MP? 48MP) but nothing that hinted at both its resolution and its manufacture.

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Same question as my first line above ... Would you call this data interpretation, scientific methodology, or objective truth? ... since you say you only deal in facts, data, and objective truths.

All these if-clauses, possiblys, and prognostications smell more like 'your opinion' to me.

An opinion which is based known or suspected facts.

In other words, what every professional, in every field, does.

And I've explained my methodology, or line of thinking. You and anyone else are free to question or critique that line of thinking in any way you want - unlike you, I've spelt it out. I don't just expect anyone to take my word as truth, without plausible explanation. Which is a whole lot more than, 'Nikon is better, because Nikon is better'.

Here, we have a likely 46MP full-frame sensor (which crops to 20.4MP if you apply a 1.5x crop, to ensure an effective sensor area at least as large as an APS-C sensor), reportedly capable of 8-10fps (fast enough for wildlife - at least, it was considered fast enough in the days of the D3, D300 and 7D). You do the maths.

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Same lead question as the above.

The truth is you're guessing, wishing, and 'thinking out loud,' same as everyone else.

So? That's the essence of reasoned debate, in the essence. You put forth an argument, and the reasoning behind it, Scientists were doing that for a century about Einstein's prediction of gravitational waves, before experiments proved him correct. Attacking someone for the audacity of putting forth an argument, as opposed to the content or reasoning behind that argument, is the purview of the preacher or demagogue, not the scientist, logician or lawyer.

As above, I've actually outlined my line of thinking and the reasoning behind it, for anyone to critique. Which you haven't - you expect everything you say to be taken as truth, and shut down with rhetoric anyone who calls you out or brings out evidence contrary to your claims.

You've yet to put down a single counterargument as to why anything I've said wouldn't be valid.

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Since your guess is no better than anyone's, my guess is the Nikon D850 will be the single-most talked about DSLR for the remainder of this year.

Obviously, because it's likely to be the last top-of-the-line DSLR or mirrorless offering from any major manufacturer for the year. The Canon/Nikon action bodies aren't due for a rehash, the A9 only came out a few months ago, the 5Ds2 and A7r3/A9r aren't due until at least the start of next year. It will be talked about because it's the only product there is to talk about at this time whose launch is imminent.

Although if Canon or Sony announce a 5Ds2 or A9r in November, you can just about guarantee that, for the remainder of the year from that point, the new announcement will be talked about more than the talked-to-death D850.

Not that being 'talked about' is a measure of performance. We all talked about the sensor performance of the 5D3 and 7D for a long time.

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When it releases, I also predict the D850 will out-sell any Sony camera for the remainder of the year, with better specs, features, and lens supplementation ... with a sensor equal to or (hey, I can hope too) better than what is currently being offered today.

Well, obviously. Between a slated October release and the end of the year, there probably won't be any major Sony camera releases, and all the early A9 adopters will already have their cameras.

And of course the sensor will be better than anything available today. It's been two years since the A7r2, and will be closer to two-and-a-half by the time the D850 is released. If Nikon (or Sony themselves, even in a second-line sensor) can't beat their previous sensor with a two-and-a-half-year lead time, even if only marginally, that would be pretty hopeless.

But the D850 isn't competing against the currently-existing sensors. It will be competing against Canon's and Sony's next-generation high-resolution bodies. That it beats the A7r2 is meaningless at this point in its product cycle. That would be like saying that the Samsung Galaxy S8 beats the iPhone 4 - products from two different generations. It needs to match or beat the A7r3/A9r.

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If at some undisclosed time next year, Sony comes out with a marginally-better sensor, then what we call this is "incremental progress," which is to be expected.

That won't change the fact the D850 will have the best sensor in its class the day it's released.

60-80MP isn't 'incremental progress' if it maintains other sensor characteristics, e.g. DR and high-ISO performance. And there's no reason it wouldn't maintain these characteristics, going on past record (of both Sony and Canon).

What isless-than-incremental progress is going from 42MP to 46MP in three years, with other factors remaining the same, in a camera built around high resolution and image quality. Which is why the A7r3/A9 won't have the 46MP sensor, but something significantly better.

'Best sensor in a production camera on the day that it's released' doesn't mean anything if a better one is in advanced development, to be released within months. Sensor development takes years - the 46MP sensor would have been developed at the same time as whatever Sony put into their next-gen model. An advantage holds for a full product cycle or longer, not the few months' difference between different brands' release dates for the same generation of camera. We compared the 5D3 and D800, despite their different release dates. We compared the 5Ds, D810 and A7r2 - they were direct competitors with each other, despite their different release dates. The fact that Nikon releases their camera a few months before the others, with  sensor that beats the previous generation, doesn't give Nikon the sensor advantage against this generation.

If the sensor is Sony-developed, likely they're using the best for themselves (the 60-80MP version) while offering the second-best for sale (the 46MP version). If the sensor is Nikon-developed, Sony is just making it for the cash, likely knowing that their own one is better (if they didn't make it, someone else would, and they'd lose the cash anyway). Or do you have a logical reason why Sony would give Nikon its own best sensor, when its competing in the same market space and likely to release a new model within months?

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It will also take Sony a lot longer than a few months to achieve Nikon's lens portfolio, if they ever can.

They said the same thing about Nikon's ability to catch up with Canon 12 years ago, given the latter's huge advantage with CMOS technology (as opposed to CCD) and full-frame sensors. Look what happened.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on July 31, 2017, 10:33:51 PM
Why don't you two guys just give it a break. Let's just wait until the 850 is released and tested and we'll all see both of you are totally wrong.

For now...don't pollute anymore.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 01, 2017, 12:41:50 AM
What if the D850 were Nikon's answer to the 5DIV at 46mp, great speed, great image quality at all ISOs... and a D5x/D900 with higher res were to be released also that is an answer to the a9r/5DR mv II?

Some here seem to be forgetting that Nikon has been aiming for the top and mostly succeeded to reach their targets of technical excellence till date.

As far as Sony's roadmap is concerned, I am pretty sure that the a7rIII will only feature a modest increase of resolution (46mp sounds about right) while the a9r may reach breakthrough resolutions at a much higher price point.

The Nikon line up I foresee is the following:

- mirrorless new FF body at around 1,400 US$ as a real affordable entry model, this would be instead of a D620
- D760 at 2,200 US$ to compete with the 6DII/a7III but specs close to the 5DIV (30mp, AF of the D810+)
- D850 at 4,000 US$ to compete with the 5DIV/a7rIII (46mp, AF of the D5)
- D5x and/or D900 at 5,000 US$ to compete with the 5DRII/a9r (70mp, AF of the D5)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 01, 2017, 01:00:01 AM
What if the D850 were Nikon's answer to the 5DIV at 46mp, great speed, great image quality at all
ISOs... and a D5x/D900 with higher res were to be released also that is an answer to the a9r/5DR mv II?

Some here seem to be forgetting that Nikon has been aiming for the top and mostly succeeded to reach their targets of technical excellence till date.

As far as Sony's roadmap is concerned, I am pretty sure that the a7rIII will only feature a modest increase of resolution (46mp sounds about right) while the a9r may reach breakthrough resolutions at a much higher price point.

The Nikon line up I foresee is the following:

- mirrorless new FF body at around 1,400 US$ as a real affordable entry model, this would be instead of a D620
- D760 at 2,200 US$ to compete with the 6DII/a7III but specs close to the 5DIV (30mp, AF of the D810+)
- D850 at 4,000 US$ to compete with the 5DIV/a7rIII (46mp, AF of the D5)
- D5x and/or D900 at 5,000 US$ to compete with the 5DRII/a9r (70mp, AF of the D5)

Cheers,
Bernard

Hear, Hear! I mostlly care about very useful low ISOs and a workable LiveView...and some more pixels.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
Hear, Hear! I mostly care about very useful low ISOs and a workable LiveView...and some more pixels.

You're assuming that the low ISO setting would be accompanied by increased FWC, right? Otherwise, you could just use an ND filter.

I know it's a little thing, but I sure hope they fix the double-push EFCS in LV.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 01, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
You're assuming that the low ISO setting would be accompanied by increased FWC, right? Otherwise, you could just use an ND filter.

I know it's a little thing, but I sure hope they fix the double-push EFCS in LV.

Jim

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is FWC?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 11:32:12 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is FWC?

Full Well Capacity is the number of electrons that can be stored on the photodiode without the sensor becoming unacceptably nonlinear. It is thus the determinator of the signal to photon noise (or shot noise, if you prefer) ratio, which is what adversely affects IQ through almost the entire photographic dynamic range in most modern sensors, now that read noise is getting so low. (There are cameras, like the D5, for which the read noise at base ISO is unusually high, and what I just said doesn't apply there.)

Photon noise signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) = 1/sqrt(electron count), so the more electrons the better. There are two ways to get more electrons; a higher FWC, and a more efficient (in the sense of more electrons for a given photon count) color filter array (CFA) and the sensor itself. With quantum efficiencies (electrons/photons) now running around 60% and more transparent CFAs causing color difficulties, the only way to make big strides in PDR is higher FWCs.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 01, 2017, 11:39:26 AM
Full Well Capacity is the number of electrons that can be stored on the photodiode without the sensor becoming unacceptably nonlinear. It is thus the determinator of the signal to photon noise (or shot noise, if you prefer) ratio, which is what adversely affects IQ through almost the entire photographic dynamic range in most modern sensors, now that read noise is getting so low. (There are cameras, like the D5, for which the read noise at base ISO is unusually high, and what I just said doesn't apply there.)

Photon noise signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) = 1/sqrt(electron count), so the more electrons the better. There are two ways to get more electrons; a higher FWC, and a more efficient (in the sense of more electrons for a given photon count) color filter array (CFA) and the sensor itself. With quantum efficiencies (electrons/photons) now running around 60% and more transparent CFAs causing color difficulties, the only way to make big strides in PDR is higher FWCs.

Jim

I get the idea. Whatever they did with the D810 to the low ISO (64) is what interests me. I have not seen anything close to that, in the other cameras I tested recently like the Pentax K1, The Sony A7RII, The Fuji GFX, and the Hasselblad X1D.

Can you comment on the low ISO of the D810, please?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:02:30 PM
Boy you ramble-on a lot. I think I've met my match.

The main gist of this palaver is that, "because I can't disprove your ramblings about Sony sensors," you're going to keep rambling.

So be it.

Of course you only talk about sensor performance, because the rest of Sony's amenities are lacking. Where would they be without the help of Zeiss and Voigtlander?

That's because Sony's sensors vs Nikon's reliance on other people's sensors is the only aspect of Sony camera technology that's actually relevant in this discussion on the D850. Sony designed and made the D810 sensor. Who made and designed the D850 sensor has a huge bearing on the likely performance of the D850.

If you've actually bothered to read anything that's non-Nikon, you'll find that I'm just as critical of Sony lens development as I am of Nikon-designed sensors and (until the most recent generation) Canon sensors.

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More palaver. Sorry, don't have the time to engage.

The usual TL;DR trolls use any time they can't win an argument.

]quote]I would have no problem buying a Sony system either ... if they only had decent glass in the areas I prefer also. But they don't.

As you mentioned in the above paragraph-rant, I don't even bother to read about Sony ... and that's because I am happy with my current gear.

Yet you're always here on Nikon threads preaching 'Sony' ... as if you're "trying to convince" everybody else ... or yourself ;)[/quote]

I'm always trying to find something better, no matter what I'm using.

Camera, boat, car, house, camping gear... I'll buy the best for purpose, then look for something even better.

If you're so happy with your gear, why bother discussing and preaching it?

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Evidence also useful in building case trials, which I have been doing in the physical world, as an investigator, probably longer than you been daydreaming on the internet, and probably longer than you've ever done anything else. In fact, since before the internet, cell phones, etc.

That's a form of argument, which I mentioned. 'Both academia and argument'. You build up evidence - both direct and circumstantial - for or against a point of contention, then explain how it supports your case or disproves the opposing case.

Something you haven't bothered to do at all here.

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Sorry, but this smacks more addled palaver. And you have your understanding exactly backwards.

Explain how.

You've just done exactly what I pointed out in the section you quoted - all you've done is repeatedly say, 'You're wrong', without actually pointing out why. 'You're wrong' isn't an argument.

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Again, sorry, but now you're entering into my world, and it is you who are confused.

A fact is something that is measurable, observable, and repeatable; that's it. A fact is different from a truth.

There are also historical 'facts' (a single occurrence) versus measurable, observable, repeatable facts.

You're confusing the definition of facts with the definition of truths.

Truths are timeless; facts are not. Measurable facts can and do change, quite often, usually over time however.

In fact (pardon the pun):

  • It is impossible to step twice into the same river."
  • ~ Heraclitus

What the hell is a 'truth'?

That smacks of quasi-religious talk.

'S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin' is no longer a fact as soon as you find a single strain that's resistant to flucloxacillin. It's a generalisation, because most strains are sensitive to flucloxacillin, but cannot be taken as fact. 'This strain of S. aureus is sensitive to flucloxacillin', however, is a provable fact.

Measurable facts do not change. If they do, you haven't been specific enough. If you measured someone's blood pressure at 95/50, it was 95/50 at that point in time. That doesn't change. Five minutes later and the BP may be different, but that doesn't change the fact that, at that point in time, the patient's BP was 95/50.

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Were you better-versed in logic, you would see your self-contradiction right here of your previous utterance.

I fail to see your point. And your increasingly flowery rhetoric is getting more and more difficult to read. Besides, you're now entering my world - debating.

There are numerous articles out there on the mechanisms of antimicrobial resistance. Do a search on Pubmed and you'll find plenty. There are probably other undiscovered mechanisms out there, but the fact that other mechanisms exist does not mean that the currently-known ones are wrong.

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Huh? :o

I'll elaborate.

This is what you said: 'and are as germane to your life as are scientific laws'

In other words, you said that, since man-made contracts are relevant to daily life, they are a technical field.

That's a non-sequitur. Something can be relevant without being technical.

I like salad. It's healthy and tasty, so I eat a fair bit of it. Therefore, salad-making is relevant to daily life.

Does that make salad-making a technical field? Of course not.

You may be able to present other arguments as to why you think man-made contracts constitute a 'technical field, but the fact that they are 'relevant to daily life' is not one of them.

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You've also shown that you know nothing about logic.

Again, putting forth a point without explanation. Not an argument. It would get thrown out of any journal or courtroom.

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What's actually funny is that you are underscoring my point here, not your original one.

You're changing course as you go along, to clarify, which was my point, not yours.

That was my original piont. 'BP of 55/30' and 'penetrating injury to the CFA' are objective, observable facts. How these individual facts are interpreted to form a bigger picture is another matter entirely.

You, on the other hand, contended that they are not objective facts, but are subjective. A quickly-inserted arterial line or CT scan will prove you wrong. Here is your quote:

To begin with, blood pressure values change daily--even throughout the day. They can change from circumstance, drug/alcohol use, even after a few cups of coffee. To say, "His blood pressure is 55/30," describes a very temporary situation. What is objective at the moment ... can change very rapidly. He will either have it raised ... soon ... or perish.

And also, to what extent has the femoral artery been penetrated? Just nicked? Completely severed?


In other words, you've implied that, just because it's temporary, it's not a fact. Wrong - a pressure transducer attached to an arterial line will tell you that, at that moment in time, the BP is 55/30. That's a fact. And you've implied that, just because there may be varying levels of injury to a blood vessel, it is not a fact that the vessel is injured. Again, easily disprovable - it's either injured or it's not.

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Again, shows how little you know about the best of contracts. Logic binds them. Only when poor logic (read, poor wording) is used is there ambiguity.

Then why do many cases drag on for weeks, months or even years? Surely, if laws and contracts are purely mechanical and not subject to argument, they should all be over as soon as both sides have read them. Yet lawyers and judges will argue endlessly about the meaning of a single word or phrase.

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Finally we agree on something. If I sign a contract, without reading it properly, then yes I am the one to blame.

However, if I trust somebody to do something for me, by granting him the authority to act in my stead, as a licensed professional, and he fails to get the job done, then that is another matter. Same as you.

Do you expect your car mechanic to fix your car without destroying it - or, worse, sabotaging it? Do you expect your surgeon to take out your appendix rather than simply cutting you open, tying your intestines in knots and carving his name into your liver? Do you expect the pumps at your petrol station to pump fuel rather than water into your car? I'd think so.

In the same vein, I'd expect a major travel agent, selling tens of thousands of travel insurance contracts annually, to know what they're selling and to act without malice in selling the product.

A society where you have to do everything yourself and have the specialised knowledge and skills to double-check everyone's work, because you can't trust them to do it properly, doesn't work past the most primitive levels of development.

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Another invalid comparison, and more palaver, but it's such an incorrect belief system that it demands comment.

Keep in mind that the the standard for all legality is "the reasonable man."

I do not have the microscopic equipment to test the food I eat for microbes. That is an "unrealistic" expectation of consumers to equip themselves with microscopic testing equipment prior to eating a simple meal.

However, if somebody hands me a document to sign, written in a language I understand, and in letters I can read with my naked eye, then it is "reasonable" to expect me to read it. Therefore, my failure to read the fine print, or my failure to interpret the information correctly, is my own failure. As it was yours.

If that's the case, then why do we have lawyers? If everyone can read and understand legal documents, why bother having people who specialise in them? And, if the lawyer messes up and things don't go your way even though his or her reading of the contract said that it would, do you then have a case to sue the lawyer? (don't know about the US, but, here, I don't think you can)

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Can't? As in breaking a physical law of time/space ... or an inconvenient one of convention ... or just the limitations of your own awareness?

Again, can't?

In many places, it's downright prohibited. Can't carry one without a local licence, can't import unless as a dealer, etc. And, if you get caught, the penalties are high.

If you think you're special, I dare you to bring an automatic weapon into Singapore and carry it around.

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In all seriousness, I don't wish bad on you or anyone else. A few years ago, a Navy seal (on this board I think) actually lost his life in Mexico. It can happen to even the best of us ... or, even more likely, the less aware or less vigilant. But, regardless, I wouldn't wish harm on you or anyone else.

I see enough of it every day.

Seen it from both ends. Trauma in the hospital, and fighting for my life crossing the Sahara and in an armed ambush in Ecuador.

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Sounds more like you have no sense of humor or are clever in some ways, not so much in others.

I have no interest in evidence?
Lol I have been dealing in nothing but evidence for most of my life.

Real evidence, the kind you have to go outside and collect ... sometimes in bad neighborhoods ... at night ... or the wee hours of the morning ... spying on people, documenting their activities (whenever your investigation reveals them to be active) ... interviewing witnesses from all walks of life ... measuring skidmarks, hiring forensic experts, storing evidence according to law ... checking for evidence of forced entry ... harvesting security footage placed where a loss occurred (or was alleged to have occurred) ... harvesting intel through pretext, a professional con (when legal) ... whatever it takes ... and reporting these facts ('this evidence') to my principals.

Can only chuckle at you here ...

What I can also do, however, is relax, speculate, and hope for something better when I am not working :D

You've yet to bring out any evidence - whether directly-measured or circumstantial, authoritative or merely supportive - regarding your stance on Nikon cameras. Rhetoric doesn't constitute evidence. If you have them, bring out the links, charts and articles to support your position, so that we can all validate or critique them.

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Not high-falutin', earned.

As a licensed investigator, I'm quite sure I've earned my right to the 007 epithet more than you've ever earned the handle of "Shadowblade."

Or are you a licensed Ninja? If so, how many years? lol

Indeed, based on your thread topic a few months back, you deserve to have that fantasy-description revoked at this point, sport.

Shadow Three, then Shadow One, were my callsigns (I have others, but I'm not going by Rainbow or Daffodil...). I played for the Blades. More than earned, I'd say. And I don't know where you're getting 'ninja' from.

007 is a fictional spy, assassin and sleazebag.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 12:10:11 PM
Can you comment on the low ISO of the D810, please?

Sorry, I guess I compressed things too much when I said this: "Photon noise signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) = 1/sqrt(electron count), so the more electrons the better. There are two ways to get more electrons; a higher FWC, and a more efficient (in the sense of more electrons for a given photon count) color filter array (CFA) and the sensor itself. With quantum efficiencies (electrons/photons) now running around 60% and more transparent CFAs causing color difficulties, the only way to make big strides in PDR is higher FWCs."

That means we need more photons. The only way to get more photons is to increase the exposure. If we increase the exposure, we're going to saturate the sensor unless we increase the FWC. Since the ISO setting on the camera (I don't know why they don't call it gain) is based on how far an gray card is from full scale, we need to reduce the ISO setting to get the greater exposure. (Go easy on me, you experts out there -- that was a very simplified explanation of how ISO works in digital cameras, and there's lot of wiggle room in the spec).

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 12:18:57 PM
I get the idea. Whatever they did with the D810 to the low ISO (64) is what interests me. I have not seen anything close to that, in the other cameras I tested recently like the Pentax K1, The Sony A7RII, The Fuji GFX, and the Hasselblad X1D.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20GFX%2050S,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

GFX base ISO PDR: 11.9 stops
a7RII base ISO PDR: 11.4 stops
D810 base ISO PDR = 11.6 stops

I didn't include the other cameras that use the Sony 33x44mm sensor since they're all virtually the same.

All the above numbers are normalized for sensor resolution. If you look on a per-pixel basis, the D810 is going to look better because it's a lower-resolution sensor. But if you want to know what a print is going to look like, you want to normalize for resolution.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:19:31 PM
What if the D850 were Nikon's answer to the 5DIV at 46mp, great speed, great image quality at all ISOs... and a D5x/D900 with higher res were to be released also that is an answer to the a9r/5DR mv II?

Some here seem to be forgetting that Nikon has been aiming for the top and mostly succeeded to reach their targets of technical excellence till date.

As far as Sony's roadmap is concerned, I am pretty sure that the a7rIII will only feature a modest increase of resolution (46mp sounds about right) while the a9r may reach breakthrough resolutions at a much higher price point.

The Nikon line up I foresee is the following:

- mirrorless new FF body at around 1,400 US$ as a real affordable entry model, this would be instead of a D620
- D760 at 2,200 US$ to compete with the 6DII/a7III but specs close to the 5DIV (30mp, AF of the D810+)
- D850 at 4,000 US$ to compete with the 5DIV/a7rIII (46mp, AF of the D5)
- D5x and/or D900 at 5,000 US$ to compete with the 5DRII/a9r (70mp, AF of the D5)

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't see that happening, since a mirrorless body would require new lenses to work at its full potential (the optics can stay the same, but new motors are needed).

More likely:

D620 to compete with 6D2 (and possibly A7iii), as an entry-level body. They could even reuse the same old sensor and still beat the 6D2's sensor, while competing with the A7iii on AF (provided it doesn't include too much of the A9). I also thought about the 36MP Sony sensor, since, as an older sensor used in several products, it will be relatively cheap, but its poor-for-2017 high-ISO performance makes it less viable for a general-purpose body. More likely, they'd just use a cheaper, third-rate sensor from Sony or someone else.

D760 to compete with 5D3 (and possibly A7iii, if it includes more of the A9)

D850 to compete with either the A7r3 or A9r.

I doubt there will be a D5x - who could they possibly sell it to? The D800 dropped the price point of a high-resolution, good-AF camera significantly, while the D810 solidified this price drop. You couldn't sell a D5x or 1Dxs for $7-8k these days, as you could with a D3x or 1Ds3. Even an A9r couldn't sell for much more than an A9 - it's different (slow and high-resolution) rather than better.

As for Nikon mirrorless, I think that's more likely to come in the consumer range, to replace the consumer-range SLRs. Since they will require new lenses, it's easier to introduce them from the consumer end, which doesn't require so many different lenses for a viable system. Also, Nikon's first-generation mirrorless AF is unlikely to match its SLR AF performance (it took Sony several iterations, and they're a much larger company, with more resources and a solid background in video, putting all their camera efforts into mirrorless), and consumer-grade cameras are less taxing on AF than higher-grade cameras and users. A high-resolution, high-DR studio/landscape camera is another possibility, but less likely, since Nikon would have to source the sensor from somewhere and would have difficulty beating the A7r3/A9r in that role.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:29:59 PM
http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20GFX%2050S,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

GFX base ISO PDR: 11.9 stops
a7RII base ISO PDR: 11.4 stops
D810 base ISO PDR = 11.6 stops

I didn't include the other cameras that use the Sony 33x44mm sensor since they're all virtually the same.

All the above numbers are normalized for sensor resolution. If you look on a per-pixel basis, the D810 is going to look better because it's a lower-resolution sensor. But if you want to know what a print is going to look like, you want to normalize for resolution.

Jim

Did they really do anything special, though?

The D810's DR at ISO 100 is around half a stop less than the D800e or A7r at ISO 100, and all use the same basic sensor. The D800e and A7r are unable to reach ISO 64 natively.

Meanwhile, the D810's DR at ISO 64 is very similar to the D800e's or A7r's DR at ISO 100.

This pattern continues all the way up the ISO curve - the DR of the D810 at any given ISO is similar to the DR of the D800e or A7r at half a stop higher ISO.

Is it simply a case of all three sensors actually having similar (possibly identical, given sample variation/margin of error) DR, but something reducing the D810's sensitivity, so that it can achieve a lower native ISO (64 instead of 100) but have a slight DR disadvantage over the others at any given ISO (e.g. similar DR at ISO 64 that the others achieve at ISO 100)? Say, for instance, stronger colour filters, or some other element of the filter stack, blocking out more light than on the others?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:35:42 PM
You're assuming that the low ISO setting would be accompanied by increased FWC, right? Otherwise, you could just use an ND filter.

I know it's a little thing, but I sure hope they fix the double-push EFCS in LV.

Jim

That's where BSI technology could come in handy.

BSI essentially gives you 3D circuitry - instead of circuitry being at the front of the sensor, at the same level as the photosites, it goes behind it. Currently, it's being used to allow more light to strike the sensor, increasing its sensitivity.

But 3D circuitry gives you other options. FWC is one of the critical elements in determining dynamic range, and it relates to how much charge each photosite can hold before becoming saturated.

Capacitors hold charge, and their capacitance is dependant on (among other things) their surface area. You can pack a lot of surface area into a very small volume, with fine enough circuitry (imagine the surface area of a sponge). Meanwhile, BSI, developed sufficiently, could potentially allow you to put a capacitor behind every photosite...

No longer would the FWC be dependent on the size of the light-collecting area of the photosite. It would be dependent on the size of the capacitor behind it. The speed at which light is collected wouldn't change, but the total amount able to be collected and measured would - hence, this would result in ultra-low ISOs with ultra-high DR, rather than an increase in high-ISO performance.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 12:36:39 PM
Did they really do anything special, though?

The D810's DR at ISO 100 is around half a stop less than the D800e or A7r at ISO 100, and all use the same basic sensor. The D800e and A7r are unable to reach ISO 64 natively.

Meanwhile, the D810's DR at ISO 64 is very similar to the D800e's or A7r's DR at ISO 100.

This pattern continues all the way up the ISO curve - the DR of the D810 at any given ISO is similar to the DR of the D800e or A7r at half a stop higher ISO.

Is it simply a case of all three sensors actually having similar (possibly identical, given sample variation/margin of error) DR, but something reducing the D810's sensitivity, so that it can achieve a lower native ISO (64 instead of 100) but have a slight DR disadvantage over the others at any given ISO (e.g. similar DR at ISO 64 that the others achieve at ISO 100)? Say, for instance, stronger colour filters, or some other element of the filter stack, blocking out more light than on the others?

I've measured the sensitivity of all three cameras in a rough sense since I routinely do comparison shots and note the differences in raw values for the exposures. The D810 sensor at base ISO is indeed about two-thirds of a stop slower than the a7RII at base ISO. The GFX sensor is slower than the a7RII at the same ISO.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 12:42:17 PM
That's where BSI technology could come in handy.

BSI essentially gives you 3D circuitry - instead of circuitry being at the front of the sensor, at the same level as the photosites, it goes behind it. Currently, it's being used to allow more light to strike the sensor, increasing its sensitivity.

But 3D circuitry gives you other options. FWC is one of the critical elements in determining dynamic range, and it relates to how much charge each photosite can hold before becoming saturated.

Capacitors hold charge, and their capacitance is dependant on (among other things) their surface area. You can pack a lot of surface area into a very small volume, with fine enough circuitry (imagine the surface area of a sponge). Meanwhile, BSI, developed sufficiently, could potentially allow you to put a capacitor behind every photosite...

No longer would the FWC be dependent on the size of the light-collecting area of the photosite. It would be dependent on the size of the capacitor behind it. The speed at which light is collected wouldn't change, but the total amount able to be collected and measured would - hence, this would result in ultra-low ISOs with ultra-high DR, rather than an increase in high-ISO performance.

Sony already puts a capacitor behind each sensor pixel, and a switching transistor, too, in all the sensors that use the DR-Pix technology, and not all of them are BSI.

I don't view the BSI much as a sensitivity-increaser since the microlenses can compensate for smaller pixel apertures. However, it allows flat microlenses, which reduce CFA crosstalk, and that is a big step forward. And, of course, it enables stacked sensors, which are a huge potential win.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Sony already puts a capacitor behind each sensor pixel, and a switching transistor, too, in all the sensors that use the DR-Pix technology, and not all of them are BSI.

I don't view the BSI much as a sensitivity-increaser since the microlenses can compensate for smaller pixel apertures. However, it allows flat microlenses, which reduce CFA crosstalk, and that is a big step forward. And, of course, it enables stacked sensors, which are a huge potential win.

Jim

Increase the size of the capacitor and you've just increased your low-ISO DR.

Of course, the penalty may be heat, which introduces its own problems.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:47:47 PM
I've measured the sensitivity of all three cameras in a rough sense since I routinely do comparison shots and note the differences in raw values for the exposures. The D810 sensor at base ISO is indeed about two-thirds of a stop slower than the a7RII at base ISO. The GFX sensor is slower than the a7RII at the same ISO.

Jim

This would probably require destructive testing, but does removing the filter stack from all three sensors equalise their sensitivity?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 01, 2017, 12:50:30 PM
Nikon is obviously going to release both a FX mirrorless body and matching lenses very soon. A patent for a 24-70 f2.8-4 mirrorless lens was just made public. The only question is whether Nikon will start low end or high end. I bet on low end.

The Nikon 1 is the obvious proof the Nikon has had a great mirrorless AF solution for years.

I personally believe there is a market for a D5x.

The ergonomics of the D5 and resulting ease/speed of use are IMHO way superior to any currently available mirrorless camera.

But note that I wrote D5x/D900 to indicate that its form factor doesn't matter.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 12:59:13 PM
Nikon is obviously going to release both a FX mirrorless body and matching lenses very soon. A patent for a 24-70 f2.8-4 mirrorless lens was just made public. The only question is whether Nikon will start low end or high end. I bet on low end.

I personally believe there is a market for a D5x.

The ergonomics of the D5 and resulting ease/speed of use are IMHO way superior to any currently available mirrorless camera.

But note that I wrote D5x/D900 to indicate that its form factor doesn't matter.

Cheers,
Bernard

The ergonomics of the D5/1Dx slow me down more than anything else. It's easy enough to attach a grip anyway.

Moreover, how many people would pay a $2-3k premium for what essentially amounts to a grip you can't remove? Particularly if a competitor can offer you the same performance, in a different form factor, at a much lower price? That's essentially what the D700 did to the D3, and what the D800 did to the 1Ds3/D3x lines of cameras. If they had released a D4x, with the same sensor as the D810, it would likely have struggled to sell.

If/when Nikon move into mirrorless, it is likely to be at the low end (APS-C). They will be trying to get all the current D3xxx/D5xxx, and possibly D7xxx buyers. Unless they can get full-frame sensors at a low enough price to bring the total unit cost to a similar price point, they won't be able to capture this audience with an entry-level full-frame mirrorless system.

Maybe if they made a huge order of last-generation, 24MP A7 or D750 sensors, they could get them for cheap and saturate the low end of the market...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 01, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
We'll know soon enough.

As I said, the point isn't the D5x, it is the exustence of a plan for FX DSLR above the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 01:15:27 PM
Increase the size of the capacitor and you've just increased your low-ISO DR.

Yes. I mentioned that earlier in the thread. You can increase the capacitance by making the plates bigger, by getting them closer together, or by increasing the dielectric constant. Or, going with your 3D idea, stacking capacitors vertically. I'd go with a mirror-image design if I were going to do that.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 01:16:40 PM
This would probably require destructive testing, but does removing the filter stack from all three sensors equalise their sensitivity?

I'm not going to try that experiment. I doubt it.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 01:39:42 PM
We'll know soon enough.

As I said, the point isn't the D5x, it is the exustence of a plan for FX DSLR above the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard

So, D850 vs A7r3 and D900 vs A9r?

Price point would be critical in the relative appeal of the four cameras.

A7r3 vs D850 would be an interesting matchup at the same price point, with the A7r3 likely having a significantly better sensor (maybe 72MP vs 46MP) but the D850 having a faster frame rate and (possibly) better AF (unless the A7r3 is more like the A9 than the A7r2 - it's hard to say, since the A7r2 is more like a prototype than a true part of a mature product lineup).

A9r vs D900/D5x is less certain. How good can they make the A7r3 without encroaching on the A9r? Make it not good enough and it basically becomes a landscape/studio one-trick wonder, as the A7r2 is regarded now, with limited appeal beyond this base compared to the 5Ds2 and D850. Make it too good and the A9r becomes pointless. And where would Nikon source a competitive sensor? Certainly Sony won't sell them theirs if they plan to put it in their own A9r. Perhaps a lesser Sony sensor - 55-60MP?

Certainly,  there is room for a top-of-the-line, no-holds-barred high-resolution body. It would be different,  rather than necessarily better, than the action bodies - for instance, bandwidth may be similar,  for 72MP at 6.7fps instead of 24MP at 20fps - with AF and other features being similar,  and a similar price point. Similarly, there is room for an entry-level, high-resolution/DR one-trick wonder, in the same vein as the 5D2, for those who need the sensor and not much else.

In that case, if there is a D5x or D900 in addition to the D850, perhaps the A9r would be the intended competition for both of them, with the A7r3 being an entry-level 'bare sensor' not intended to compete with these bodies at all. Or perhaps the A7 lineup will take a step up (like the 5D line with the 5D3), matching the D850 level of AF and other non-sensor performance, with a third, entry-level A5 line being introduced to compete with the 6D and D600 lines (with the high-resolution 'bare sensor' belonging there). That would certainly introduce symmetry into the lineup of the three major players. But is symmetry really necessary? And can Sony really support - or does it really need - a third line of full-frame mirrorleaa bodiea?

And where does all this leave Canon? The 5Ds2 is a near-certainty. Sensor-wise, it will likely be more A9r/A7r3 than D810 - they've proven their ability to manufacture high-DR sensors, and they're hardly likely to go backwards on resolution - bit the other aspects of performance are far leas certain. Does Canon have room for a 1Dxs in addition to the 5Ds line?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 01:48:18 PM
I'm not going to try that experiment. I doubt it.

Jim

Then what else could be responsible for the reduced sensitivity, yet equal ultimate DR (and same half-a-stop lag in DR-vs-ISO performance) in a sensor whose core design appears to be otherwise identical to the other two, and is likely the same basic sensor?

The D810 is no less noisy and has no more DR at ISO 64 compared with the D800e and A7r at ISO 100. It simply needs a lower ISO to achieve the same output quality. Usually, you'd regard that as a step back. What other aspect of performance could be improved by Nikon making that sacrifice? Did they use a stronger colour filter for better colour accuracy and/or gamut? Would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 01:51:58 PM
Then what else could be responsible for the reduced sensitivity, yet equal ultimate DR (and same half-a-stop lag in DR-vs-ISO performance) in a sensor whose core design appears to be otherwise identical to the other two, and is likely the same basic sensor?

The D810 is no less noisy and has no more DR at ISO 64 compared with the D800e and A7r at ISO 100. It simply needs a lower ISO to achieve the same output quality. Usually, you'd regard that as a step back. What other aspect of performance could be improved by Nikon making that sacrifice? Did they use a stronger colour filter for better colour accuracy and/or gamut? Would be interesting to know.

I don't buy that the D810 and D800 sensors are the same. I've seen no evidence of that. I don't see how they could be, since the D810 has EFS and teh D800 does not. Are you saying that the D800 sensor has all the circuitry for EFCS and just doesn't use it?

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 01, 2017, 01:53:20 PM
I don't think the a7rIII will be 70mp.

Sony is going to keep that sensor for the a9r and those who can afford it will have to pay 5,000+ US$ to get one.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 01:59:59 PM
I don't buy that the D810 and D800 sensors are the same. I've seen no evidence of that. I don't see how they could be, since the D810 has EFS and teh D800 does not. Are you saying that the D800 sensor has all the circuitry for EFCS and just doesn't use it?

Jim

Possibly an upgraded version of the same basic design. Same thing at the core, with different bits and pieces tacked on.

A bit like how a Lexus and Toyota are the same basic car - same chassis, same engine. But different bits and pieces attached to it. In the D810's casr, this may include additional circuitry, which doesn't actually change the underlying basic sensor design.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 02:07:42 PM
Possibly an upgraded version of the same basic design. Same thing at the core, with different bits and pieces tacked on.

A bit like how a Lexus and Toyota are the same basic car - same chassis, same engine. But different bits and pieces attached to it. In the D810's casr, this may include additional circuitry, which doesn't actually change the underlying basic sensor design.

How do you know that? Putting a rolling reset in affects a lot.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 02:08:28 PM
I don't think the a7rIII will be 70mp.

Sony is going to keep that sensor for the a9r and those who can afford it will have to pay 5,000+ US$ to get one.

Cheers,
Bernard

Without a significant sensor advantage, the A7r3 would need either a huge AF and general performance boost over the A7r2, or a much cheaper price point than the D850 and 5Ds2, to be competitive with the Canon and Nikon. No-one's going to buy an A7r3 with D850-level sensor performance and much poorer other features. Sensors are Sony's strength, while competing on price has never been one of its strengths...

It may be easier to use the same sensor on both cameras and make AF and general performance the distinguishing feature, rather than using different sensors on each one and having to match the D850's speed and AF with the A7 line.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 02:10:13 PM
Then what else could be responsible for the reduced sensitivity, yet equal ultimate DR (and same half-a-stop lag in DR-vs-ISO performance) in a sensor whose core design appears to be otherwise identical to the other two, and is likely the same basic sensor?

The D810 is no less noisy and has no more DR at ISO 64 compared with the D800e and A7r at ISO 100. It simply needs a lower ISO to achieve the same output quality. Usually, you'd regard that as a step back. What other aspect of performance could be improved by Nikon making that sacrifice? Did they use a stronger colour filter for better colour accuracy and/or gamut? Would be interesting to know.

D810 Claff PDR at base SISO is 11.6 stops
D800 Claff PDR at base ISO is 11.42 stops.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 02:13:14 PM
How do you know that? Putting a rolling reset in affects a lot.

Jim

It seems more than mere coincidence that a sensor from the same maker, with the same resolution, used in a camera that's essentially a mid-generation upgrade of another using a similar sensor, happens to have a near-identical DR-to-ISO curve, except shitted half a stop to the left. How many completely-different 36MP sensors with near-identical performance would Sony have designed and put into production?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 01, 2017, 02:17:19 PM
I've measured the sensitivity of all three cameras in a rough sense since I routinely do comparison shots and note the differences in raw values for the exposures. The D810 sensor at base ISO is indeed about two-thirds of a stop slower than the a7RII at base ISO. The GFX sensor is slower than the a7RII at the same ISO.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I am beginning to understand. As mentioned, my eyes tell me that the C810 is a better low ISO camera than my Sony A7RII... and while I'm not sure, my eyes tell me that neither the GFX or the X1D can match the D810 in low ISO, although (IMO) the X1D is better at handling highlights than the D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 02:21:06 PM
D810 Claff PDR at base SISO is 11.6 stops
D800 Claff PDR at base ISO is 11.42 stops.

Jim

D800e is 11.45, A7r is 11.71.

In addition, we know that the A7r and D810 (the two higher values) lack AA filters, while the D800 and D800e have ine (although the D800e has a second filter to reverse the first one). Perhaps this has a small impact on base DR.

These values - and the similar way the sensors behave at higher ISOs - all seem close enough to be due to statistical variation between individual sensors or measurements, rather than being indicative of the three sensors being of different underlying designs. Particularly since the D810 value sits between the D800 and A7r values - two cameras which show even more similarities in sensor performance - rather than off to one side of them.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 02:25:04 PM
It seems more than mere coincidence that a sensor from the same maker, with the same resolution, used in a camera that's essentially a mid-generation upgrade of another using a similar sensor, happens to have a near-identical DR-to-ISO curve, except shitted half a stop to the left. How many completely-different 36MP sensors with near-identical performance would Sony have designed and put into production?

The a7R and the D800 have similar sensors.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800,Sony%20ILCE-7R

Now, take a look at the FWCs of the a7R vs the D810:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/d810-vs-a7r-sensor-performance/

The FWC of the D810 is much larger. They are not the same sensor cell design.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on August 01, 2017, 02:51:14 PM
Possibly an upgraded version of the same basic design. Same thing at the core, with different bits and pieces tacked on.

A bit like how a Lexus and Toyota are the same basic car - same chassis, same engine. But different bits and pieces attached to it. In the D810's casr, this may include additional circuitry, which doesn't actually change the underlying basic sensor design.

More pure speculation.

Act as if you know the first time, then 'speculate' when someone calls you on it.

The truth is, you have no idea.

I will address your other tirade (on a new thread topic I create) when time permits.

Let's keep this to the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 08:36:31 PM
More pure speculation.

Act as if you know the first time, then 'speculate' when someone calls you on it.

The truth is, you have no idea.

I will address your other tirade (on a new thread topic I create) when time permits.

Let's keep this to the D850.

And what exactly does your post add? He's brought out evidence and charts I hadn't seen before. You're just here to fling personal insults and attack the person rather than the argument.

Interesting how you always maintain that others have 'no idea', without once spelling exactly how it is that you do have an idea, or how your thoughts are any more valid. I don't recall you even once laying out the reasoning behind your conjecture, beyond simply saying things like 'It's wrong', 'You're clueless' and 'You're dumb' without any attempt to demonstrate how or why there is an error, or why your reasoning holds any more water. That's not debate - it's just trolling.

In the absence of hard data, you lay out reasoned arguments, together with your reasoning and the evidence behind it (in the absence of hard data, that will be circumstantial). Others can refute this with hard data, or, in the absence of hard data, with their own reasoned arguments. That is how academic debate works. It is not 'speculation', any more than reasoned but untested scientific hypotheses are theories. Or was Einstein merely speculating about relativity a century ago, when he had no hard data and no means of testing any of his theories, despite having a logical reason for thinking what he did?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 01, 2017, 09:21:29 PM
The a7R and the D800 have similar sensors.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800,Sony%20ILCE-7R

Now, take a look at the FWCs of the a7R vs the D810:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/d810-vs-a7r-sensor-performance/

The FWC of the D810 is much larger. They are not the same sensor cell design.

Jim

How much of a modification to the sensor is necessary, though, to achieve a higher FWC? Since it's a matter of capacitance, rather than necessarily the light-collecting area itself, wouldn't a redesign of the capacitance area alone - a thicker capacitor layer, or higher-capacitance capacitors, as you mentioned earlier, for example - achieve this, without requiring a full redesign of the sensor?

Also, I note that your PDR values differ from those provided by Claff. He gave a value of 11.71 for the A7r at ISO 100 (base ISO) and 11.60 for the D810 at ISO 64, dropping to around 11.02 at ISO 100 (I say 'around' because I don't have the exact number in front of me).

Or are you saying that the base ISO of the D810 is actually lower than 64 (with ISO 64 also being some multiple of base ISO) and Nikon actually crippled the sensor by not allowing access to even lower native ISOs, with commensurate higher DR?

Do you have any results for the Pentax K-1? If so, which version of the 36MP sensor does it use? If it uses the D810 sensor rather than the D800/A7r sensor, could it be the case that the D810 (and possibly K-1) merely represent an updated version of the 36MP sensor, perhaps with the sensitivity difference accounted for by a different filter stack in front? The K-1 has a PDR of 11.43 at its base ISO of 100, and is also consistently a third of a stop ahead of the D810 at any given ISO, suggesting greater sensitivity.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 01, 2017, 11:38:18 PM
How much of a modification to the sensor is necessary, though, to achieve a higher FWC? Since it's a matter of capacitance, rather than necessarily the light-collecting area itself, wouldn't a redesign of the capacitance area alone - a thicker capacitor layer, or higher-capacitance capacitors, as you mentioned earlier, for example - achieve this, without requiring a full redesign of the sensor?

I'm not a sensor designer so I can't say how different, but there is sufficient evidence here -- the PDR, FWC, EFCS -- to indicate that the deisgns are different.

Also, I note that your PDR values differ from those provided by Claff. He gave a value of 11.71 for the A7r at ISO 100 (base ISO) and 11.60 for the D810 at ISO 64, dropping to around 11.02 at ISO 100 (I say 'around' because I don't have the exact number in front of me).

Bill and I use different methods and usually different serial numbered cameras.

Or are you saying that the base ISO of the D810 is actually lower than 64 (with ISO 64 also being some multiple of base ISO) and Nikon actually crippled the sensor by not allowing access to even lower native ISOs, with commensurate higher DR?

I'm not saying that at all.

Do you have any results for the Pentax K-1? If so, which version of the 36MP sensor does it use? If it uses the D810 sensor rather than the D800/A7r sensor, could it be the case that the D810 (and possibly K-1) merely represent an updated version of the 36MP sensor, perhaps with the sensitivity difference accounted for by a different filter stack in front? The K-1 has a PDR of 11.43 at its base ISO of 100, and is also consistently a third of a stop ahead of the D810 at any given ISO, suggesting greater sensitivity.

I have no Pentax results at all.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2017, 01:14:14 AM
Without a significant sensor advantage, the A7r3 would need either a huge AF and general performance boost over the A7r2, or a much cheaper price point than the D850 and 5Ds2, to be competitive with the Canon and Nikon. No-one's going to buy an A7r3 with D850-level sensor performance and much poorer other features. Sensors are Sony's strength, while competing on price has never been one of its strengths...

Look at the Canon 6DMkII. It offers very little over the 6D and even less over competition.

An even better data point is the a7rII vs a7r.

And finally, the main concern of Sony will be to sell as many a9r as possible, so the differentiationn they will want to protect is btw a7rIII and a9r.

Anyway you look at it, it makes more sense to Sony to keep the a7rIII an alrounder camera which means small increases of resolution.

And I believe that the D850 is targetting the same positioning in the Nikon line up, which means a D900 is coming too.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 02, 2017, 03:59:53 AM
Look at the Canon 6DMkII. It offers very little over the 6D and even less over competition.

An even better data point is the a7rII vs a7r.

And finally, the main concern of Sony will be to sell as many a9r as possible, so the differentiationn they will want to protect is btw a7rIII and a9r.

Anyway you look at it, it makes more sense to Sony to keep the a7rIII an alrounder camera which means small increases of resolution.

And I believe that the D850 is targetting the same positioning in the Nikon line up, which means a D900 is coming too.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think the challenge for Sony will be to keep up the speed of the A9 cameras with a higher resolution sensor. Right now, they managed to do the A9 a speed camera with 24 mp. Could they do the same in the future with a 42 or even higher mp count?

A7 > entry level
A7R > mid level high res
A9 > pro level low res speed
A9R > future pro level high res speed?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2017, 08:46:31 AM
I believe that the a9x will simply go further along the chosen axis.

X=r -> resolution

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: DennisWilliams on August 04, 2017, 01:28:56 AM

- mirrorless new FF body at around 1,400 US$ as a real affordable entry model, this would be instead of a D620
- D760 at 2,200 US$ to compete with the 6DII/a7III but specs close to the 5DIV (30mp, AF of the D810+)
- D850 at 4,000 US$ to compete with the 5DIV/a7rIII (46mp, AF of the D5)
- D5x and/or D900 at 5,000 US$ to compete with the 5DRII/a9r (70mp, AF of the D5)

Cheers,
Bernard

I would love that D5x. I just bought a D810 as a  P&S  and it could become the digital backup to the D5x  (if there was one)  and I will retire the 67s. California dreaming no doubt.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 04, 2017, 09:46:12 AM
A7 > entry level
A7R > mid level high res
A9 > pro level low res speed
A9R > future pro level high res speed?

no sense to make A9R based on what C & N do ... there will be A7S for video, A7 for masses, A7R for high resolution and A9 for sport/action
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 04, 2017, 09:51:43 AM
No-one's going to buy an A7r3 with D850-level sensor performance and much poorer other features.
right.... much poorer other features = like EFCS while shooting through viewfinder (no mirror slap either) and IBIS , ability to mount all possible lenses too and many w/ AF even ...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 04, 2017, 09:53:30 AM
Look at the Canon 6DMkII. It offers very little over the 6D and even less over competition.

An even better data point is the a7rII vs a7r.

A7R2 offers much more over A7R than 6D2 vs 6D... EFCS & IBIS
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on August 04, 2017, 11:33:58 PM
What the hell is a 'truth'?

That smacks of quasi-religious talk.

Hi. I have responded to your lack of understanding of the difference between the truth and 'the facts' on this new thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=119209.0).

It will be my last response to you on this subject.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: JKoerner007 on August 04, 2017, 11:44:56 PM
Hear, Hear! I mostlly care about very useful low ISOs and a workable LiveView...and some more pixels.

Back to the D850, yes.

The D810 is (for me) just about a perfect camera.

If I could get a truly great Live View, if I could increase fps to a decent (~8) level, and if I could have 46 mpx (so I no longer need a crop 20 mpx camera), and full-FX 4K video, I could live with this camera forever. Anything beyond that is overkill IMO.

With the lens availability Nikon proves, and with receiving upgrades to the few areas the D810 lacked, the D850 would be a retirement camera IMO.

Time will tell, and I am anxious to hear what the real specs are.

That said, I am happy with my D500 and D810 ... and I am in no rush to upgrade.

I have spent $39,000+ this 1.3 years, on camera equipment, and enough is enough.

I will probably "sit on the sidelines and watch" for the next year, maybe two, and spend my money on trips (enjoying the equipment I have) rather than blowing money on more gear ... at least for awhile ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 05, 2017, 06:07:58 AM
no sense to make A9R based on what C & N do ... there will be A7S for video, A7 for masses, A7R for high resolution and A9 for sport/action

Does that mean that you cannot both get high resolution and essential features implemented in the A9 such as double memory slot?

I would personnally never use a body without double memory slot for a mission critical application. Currently I still use my D810 over my H6D-100c in some cases because the current firmware of the H6D does not yet implement the back up feature promised leveraging the 2 available physical slots. This was also a major reason for not going P1.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 05, 2017, 07:59:07 AM
Look at the Canon 6DMkII. It offers very little over the 6D and even less over competition.

An even better data point is the a7rII vs a7r.

And finally, the main concern of Sony will be to sell as many a9r as possible, so the differentiationn they will want to protect is btw a7rIII and a9r.

Anyway you look at it, it makes more sense to Sony to keep the a7rIII an alrounder camera which means small increases of resolution.

And I believe that the D850 is targetting the same positioning in the Nikon line up, which means a D900 is coming too.

Cheers,
Bernard

But the A7r2 isn't an all-rounder camera. It's basically a 'bare sensor' camera or digital back, with a fantastic sensor and a lens mount that can take just about any lens you'd want to put in front of it, and not much else. Just about the only higher-end camera it beats performance-wise is the A7r, which was even more of a 'bare-sensor' camera - unlike the A7r, the A7r2 can actually AF on a walking person, when using a native Sony E-mount lens.

If you want to shoot anything that moves, the D810 or 5Ds are far better options (depending on whether you needed resolution or DR more) - they're cameras with true all-round capability, albeit a strong focus on resolution and image quality (no doubt the 5Ds successor will use the on-sensor ADC technology seen in the 1Dx2 and 5D4 for greater DR - it's not a budget, entry-level full-frame body like the 6D2). The appeal of the A7r and A7r2 wasn't to those who needed an all-round body - it was to those who didn't care about the other features and just wanted to put the best lenses in front of the best high-resolution sensors. It's no accident that the A7r sold heavily to Canon non-action photographers wanting a better sensor to put in front of their lenses - it was even marketed that way, with a Metabones adaptor being provided free with each camera sold.

The A7r3 needs to be along the same lines - maximal image quality, with everything else being secondary (or not even a consideration). They won't attract the non-action studio/landscape photographers, who were big buyers of the A7r and A7r2, with a body with only minimal IQ upgrades over its predecessor, and minimal IQ advantage over its comparably-priced competition, regardless of what else it includes in terms of AF, frame rate, etc. They also won't upgrade to the A9r, if what they need is a great sensor and not much else. Price is a big factor here - spending $2.5-3k USD is one thing, but double that, when you only need the sensor and none of the other parts, is another thing entirely.

It would make more sense for the A7r3 and A9r to be analogous to the 5D2 and 1Ds3 - equal image quality, but one being a bare-bones system for those who just need the sensor, the other being a high-performance system with top-tier AF, higher frame rate, etc., for those needing it (e.g. photojournalists, or those using it to shoot wildlife/action in addition to landscapes/architecture). Many people would buy one of each - the A9r as their base system, with the A7r3 as backup. Others (non-action photographers currently using the A7r or A7r2) would consider the high-resolution A7r3, whereas they would be less likely to consider a lower-resolution A7r3 or a more-expensive A9r. It'd be a win-win situation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Christopher on August 05, 2017, 08:08:31 PM
Sorry but I have shot now over 100k images with my Phase and my cards, never had any reason for needing to shoot on a second card. I don't think there are many reasons to do so. If there was I would always prefer to shoot onto a mac or Pc straight away.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2017, 07:06:11 AM
Sorry but I have shot now over 100k images with my Phase and my cards, never had any reason for needing to shoot on a second card. I don't think there are many reasons to do so. If there was I would always prefer to shoot onto a mac or Pc straight away.

Good for you. I had 3 cards from Sandisk/Lexar unrecoverably die on me over the years (2 SDs and 1 CF).

It does happen, the only question is when. The fact that most pro-grade bodies do offer 2 slots would appear to confirm my perception that it is important.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2017, 07:30:34 AM
Good for you. I had 3 cards from Sandisk/Lexar unrecoverably die on me over the years (2 SDs and 1 CF).

It does happen, the only question is when. The fact that most pro-grade bodies do offer 2 slots would appear to confirm my perception that it is important.

Cheers,
Bernard

Card failure isn't even necessarily the biggest issue.

When travelling, I'd prefer to be able to keep multiple copies of data - for instance, one set with my cameras, another locked away in a different place, to guard against data loss through theft.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 06, 2017, 09:17:26 AM
Does that mean that you cannot both get high resolution and essential features implemented in the A9 such as double memory slot?

you can , but it will be A7R3, that's it ... unlike the situations with dSLR there is no separate PDAF module in dSLM - it is all related to sensor and how fast you get data off it ... higher MP sensor will make not make it easier to approach A9 (24mp) AF wise - whatever improvements happen they happen and be present in A7R3 body ... dual card slots and AF joysticks as C & N again show are not features exclusively available on their 1D* / D* series, so there is no reason to expect that Sony will not get it in A7R3 ... the key difference between A7R3 and A9 will remain : less MP = faster AF operation / more FPS ... all those lines about A7R2 not being all round camera is essentially related to CDAF/PDAF on sensor not being as fast/reliable for moving targets as separate PDAF module in dSLRs ... this is the principal problem to address...

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on August 06, 2017, 09:23:38 AM
Card failure isn't even necessarily the biggest issue.

When travelling, I'd prefer to be able to keep multiple copies of data - for instance, one set with my cameras, another locked away in a different place, to guard against data loss through theft.

I always back up to multiple hard drives rather than keep tons of cards around.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
I always back up to multiple hard drives rather than keep tons of cards around.

Not convenient while travelling.

Computers are heavy, fragile and hard to keep powered in the wilderness. Also, I'm not certain about spinning, non-solid-state drives at high altitude and low air pressure..

Memory cards weigh almost nothing and are powered via the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on August 06, 2017, 10:25:28 AM
Not convenient while travelling.

Computers are heavy, fragile and hard to keep powered in the wilderness. Also, I'm not certain about spinning, non-solid-state drives at high altitude and low air pressure..

Memory cards weigh almost nothing and are powered via the camera.

I do use a solid state drive with computer for backup. Don't want to deal with dozens of cards while traveling.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2017, 01:19:02 PM
you can , but it will be A7R3, that's it ...

We'll see, I don't share your views. I am pretty sure that Sony will release an a9r and that it will be significantly differentiated from the a7rIII.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 06, 2017, 02:09:16 PM
We'll see, I don't share your views. I am pretty sure that Sony will release an a9r and that it will be significantly differentiated from the a7rIII.

so why Canon or Nikon are not releasing 2nd lines in 1D* or D* series (with more mp) and Sony all of a sudden shall when Sony still have smaller market than either C&N ? big boys do not see market for 2 high mp lines (something on top of D8** / 5Ds|r) and Sony out of nowhere shall see it ... slap 2 SD slots and AF joystick in addition to higher mp sensor and get A7R3 ... and for economy purposes Sony might simply reuse A9 body for A7 3, A7S3, A7R3 (may be w/o 2nd SD slot for A7 3)... that will be more logical and savvy
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2017, 03:10:44 PM
so why Canon or Nikon are not releasing 2nd lines in 1D* or D* series (with more mp) and Sony all of a sudden shall when Sony still have smaller market than either C&N ? big boys do not see market for 2 high mp lines (something on top of D8** / 5Ds|r) and Sony out of nowhere shall see it ... slap 2 SD slots and AF joystick in addition to higher mp sensor and get A7R3 ... and for economy purposes Sony might simply reuse A9 body for A7 3, A7S3, A7R3 (may be w/o 2nd SD slot for A7 3)... that will be more logical and savvy

To cut a long story short, the a7x line falls below the equivalent Nikon/Canon higher end bodies in some important physical features (double memory slot, more rugged design,...). The a9 line is designed to cover these.

Why would Sony not charge 5,000+ US$ if they were to release a 60+ mp body in the coming months? My view is that they will do this as a top of the line product features a non compromised feature set, and that means an a9r.

My view isn't that Sony will release their high res body both in a9 and a7 versions, you'll have to get the a9 to get the best sensor.

And, back to the original point (this thread is about the D850 and Nikon releases actually), I believe that Nikon will also release a body above the D850 that will feature a slower shooting experience with a very high res sensor also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 06, 2017, 03:38:12 PM
To cut a long story short, the a7x line falls below the equivalent Nikon/Canon higher end bodies in some important physical features (double memory slot, more rugged design,...). The a9 line is designed to cover these.

Why would Sony not charge 5,000+ US$ if they were to release a 60+ mp body in the coming months? My view is that they will do this as a top of the line product features a non compromised feature set, and that means an a9r.

My view isn't that Sony will release their high res body both in a9 and a7 versions, you'll have to get the a9 to get the best sensor.

And, back to the original point (this thread is about the D850 and Nikon releases actually), I believe that Nikon will also release a body above the D850 that will feature a slower shooting experience with a very high res sensor also.


After working with the a9 for a couple of months, the user interface of the a7RII has become increasingly painful for me to use. I think Sony needs to fix that in the next go-round.

After working with the GFX for a bit longer than that, I am convinced that Nikon needs an answer. However, I don't think the long pole in the tent is the bodies, but the respective manufacturers' lenses. The Fuji lenses, with the exception of one, are superb, and the exception is merely very good. To get the best out of the D810 in many focal length ranges, you need to use third-party lenses. I would think Nikon would be uncomfortable with that situation. We have heard rumblings about Nikon employing some of the techniques used for their industrial lenses in the future. Presumably, that means more repeatable and precise assembly. That could be the lever that Nikon uses to up its game in F-mount lenses.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2017, 03:56:19 PM
After working with the GFX for a bit longer than that, I am convinced that Nikon needs an answer. However, I don't think the long pole in the tent is the bodies, but the respective manufacturers' lenses. The Fuji lenses, with the exception of one, are superb, and the exception is merely very good. To get the best out of the D810 in many focal length ranges, you need to use third-party lenses. I would think Nikon would be uncomfortable with that situation. We have heard rumblings about Nikon employing some of the techniques used for their industrial lenses in the future. Presumably, that means more repeatable and precise assembly. That could be the lever that Nikon uses to up its game in F-mount lenses.

Jim,

May I ask what Nikon lenses you are referring to here?

My view, based on ownership and extended usage, is that all their recent releases (105mm f1.4, 19mm T/S, 70-200 f2.8, 28mm f1.4) are outstanding. I have sold my Otus 28mm and 85mm because they were not significantly better than the Nikon 28mm and 105mm.

Overall I feel that their lenses, both in terms of technical excellence and look, are their best asset nwadays.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 06, 2017, 04:07:06 PM
Jim,

May I ask what Nikon lenses you are referring to here?

My view, based on ownership and extended usage, is that all their recent releases (105mm f1.4, 19mm T/S, 70-200 f2.8, 28mm f1.4) are outstanding. I have sold my Otus 28mm and 85mm because they were not significantly better than the Nikon 28mm and 105mm.

Overall I feel that their lenses, both in terms of technical excellence and look, are their best asset nwadays.


I've only used the 105 and the new 70-200, but I agree that they are great lenses by historical standards.  I have heard great things about the 19 T/S, but I can't use it on an a7RII, so I haven't bought it. I have the old, cultish, 28/1.4, and that's good enough for me. However, the Fuji 110/2, 23/4, 120/4, and 32-64/4 are in another zip code, when used on the GFX. By the way, I don't think the 105/1.4 needs to be any sharper than it is; I consider it a (wonderful) special-purpose lens. The new 70-200 is a marvel, and there is certainly no GFX equivalent (and how many would buy a 100-280/4 GFX zoom?), so maybe that's as good as such a lens can be.

But you make a good point. Maybe Nikon has already stepped up its game, and because their lens line is so extensive, it's going to take a long time to play out.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2017, 08:24:47 PM
We'll see, I don't share your views. I am pretty sure that Sony will release an a9r and that it will be significantly differentiated from the a7rIII.

Cheers,
Bernard

so why Canon or Nikon are not releasing 2nd lines in 1D* or D* series (with more mp) and Sony all of a sudden shall when Sony still have smaller market than either C&N ? big boys do not see market for 2 high mp lines (something on top of D8** / 5Ds|r) and Sony out of nowhere shall see it ... slap 2 SD slots and AF joystick in addition to higher mp sensor and get A7R3 ... and for economy purposes Sony might simply reuse A9 body for A7 3, A7S3, A7R3 (may be w/o 2nd SD slot for A7 3)... that will be more logical and savvy

The reason is that the A7r2 is not the equal of the 5Ds or D810.

The D810 has better AF than the D3x (if not quite up to the contemporary D4s), while the 5Ds has an AF system that matches the 5D3. The D850 has apparently improved the AF even further (using the D5 system, although how well it performs compared to the D5 remains to be seen); Canon will almost certainly try to match this.

Meanwhile, the A7r2 isn't much more than a digital back - a fantastic sensor (and sensor stabilisation system) attached to not much of a camera. It is, in most ways, a unique system with bo equivalent in other manufacturers' lineups - no-one else matches a high-resolution, high-performance sensor with a bare-bones camera. Sensor aside, the A9 has much more in common with the D810 and 5Ds than the A7r2 does; even in terms of data bandwidth, 20fps at 24MP is a similar bandwidth to the D850's purported 10fps at 46MP. With a 70MP sensor, an A9r could get to 6-7fps, for a frame rate somewhere between the D810 and D850.

So, an A9r, with the A9's AF system, a similar data bandwidth and a high-resolution sensor would be far closer in concept and capability to the D810 and 5Ds (which, after all, are spiritual successors to the D3x and 1Ds3). If Sony only launches one high-resolution body, it will likely be more like a high-resolution, low-speed A9 than an A7r2 with a better sensor but few other features, regardless of what the final name is. If it retains an A9-level AF system while the D850 doesn't match the D5/D500, that would put it in a slightly higher tier and allow it to command a price premium; if not, it would probably have to be close to the D850 in price, which is unlikely to be too far from the launch price of the A9.

I think Sony is likely to launch two high-resolution bodies. They will want to introduce a high-performance version, which they were previously incapable of, but also keep a no-frills line for the users which made the A7 line such a success in the first place - those who don't care about anything other than the sensor. Without a budget version, they would lose too many users. I agree that there will be a significant difference between the A9r and A7r3, but doubt that the sensor will be the difference. The A9r will be a more D850/5Ds2-type camera, aimed at combining high performance with a top-tier sensor. The A7r3 will be a bare-bones model with the same sensor, continuing on from the A7r and A7r2. In effect, it would be a bit like the 1Ds3 vs 5D2 comparison from ten years ago. With two models, it may even be that they do not compete directly with the Nikon and Canon models, but bracket it at the high end (with the A9r) and low end (with the A7r3).

Just because the A9 matches D5 and 1Dx2 performance doesn't mean that the A7 line is meant to match the 5D and D810 lines. That would be a false equivalence. The A9 is equally a match for the 5D4 - after all, its price point is between that of the 5D4 and 1Dx2, and is proving to be popular with the same wedding and event photographers who used the 5D3/5D4 and D750. The A7 line, meanwhile, is a line of budget cameras more akin to the 6D and D610 lines. Sony started there (since mirrorless wasn't ready for anything else at the time) but is unlikely to remain there now that their mirrorless technology is more mature - they won't leave their flagship high-resolution sensor with substandard AF and other features not competitive with the high-resolution bodies of Canon and Nikon. The alternative would be a repositioning of the A7 line to be a higher-performance line, similar to the 5D4, but that would probably leave the A7iii uncomfortably close to the A9 performance- and price-wise. So leaving the A7 line as a budget option and using the A9 line as a performance option, with sensors being common, is probably a more likely scenario.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2017, 08:42:55 PM
Just because the A9 matches D5 and 1Dx2 performance...

Does it?

For a start, the D5 and 1Dx2 are not equivalent in AF performance, the D5 is significantly ahead in terms of tracking.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2017, 09:15:01 PM
Does it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Seems to, by most accounts. At least with the lenses currently available, in comparison with the 1Dx2 and D5 using the Canon or Nikon equivalent lenses. Obviously there are no comparisons for sports and wildlife using long telephoto primes, as there are no long telephoto primes available for E-mount, or any long telephotos at all until a few days ago. But it seems to work just as well as the D5 or 1Dx2 for fast action using the 70-200, or for low-light events, live music, weddings, etc. And it's well ahead of the 5D4, D750 and D810 in that regard.

Not that top-tier AF is the sole purview of flagship action cameras any more, either - the D500 performs similarly to the D5 and shares the same AF system. As will the D850, apparently. It probably makes sense and works out cheaper to put the same, top-tier AF system in your flagship action, high-resolution and crop bodies than to make a different one for each body.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2017, 09:27:51 PM
For a start, the D5 and 1Dx2 are not equivalent in AF performance, the D5 is significantly ahead in terms of tracking.

Similar ballpark, though. Both are well ahead of anything else in their own lineup (apart from the D500, which shares the D5 AF system), and well ahead of both the 1Dx and D4s. They represent the top tier of AF systems available today, and the A9 belongs equally among them, at least for the lenses currently available for it. I can't say how it will perform tracking eagles or hyenas with a 400mm or 500mm prime yet (performance may differ at different focal lengths), but, up to 200mm at least (and reportedly with the 100-400 as well, although I haven't seen a copy of that lens yet) it's just as fast and accurate (if not more so, given the CDAF fine-tuning and eye focus for appropriate subjects) as its Canon/Nikon counterparts. Certainly, the launch of the 400mm prime later this year will be quite revealing - does the A9 hold up at longer focal lengths, with more weight of glass to move, or does it fall short there?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 07, 2017, 04:12:44 AM
I think Sony is likely to launch two high-resolution bodies. They will want to introduce a high-performance version, which they were previously incapable of, but also keep a no-frills line for the users which made the A7 line such a success in the first place - those who don't care about anything other than the sensor. Without a budget version, they would lose too many users. I agree that there will be a significant difference between the A9r and A7r3, but doubt that the sensor will be the difference. The A9r will be a more D850/5Ds2-type camera, aimed at combining high performance with a top-tier sensor. The A7r3 will be a bare-bones model with the same sensor, continuing on from the A7r and A7r2. In effect, it would be a bit like the 1Ds3 vs 5D2 comparison from ten years ago. With two models, it may even be that they do not compete directly with the Nikon and Canon models, but bracket it at the high end (with the A9r) and low end (with the

Umm... I don't general agree with this point of view, but the latests rumors of a new A7 III by the end of the year are going against me, so probably I'm wrong...

In the latests years Sony has a "tradition" of putting new models out in the market while keeping the old ones in a lower price. You can now go to Amazon and get an RX100 II, RX100 III, RX100 IV and RX100 V... or an A6000, A6300, and A6500.

So, right now you have in the market:

- A7 (~1000€), A7r (~1400€), A7s (~1400€)
- A7 II (~1500€), A7r II (~2900€), A7s II (~2900€)
- A9 (~5000€)

I see sense for Sony to release the A9r and A9s and push a bit down the price of the II line and maybe the A9 itself... and Sony will have three categories.

Now, the A7 III rumors do not fit in this picture of mine... but it makes sense to release it now... A7 II does not have by far a good AF like de Canon 5D III or Nikon D750... putting a new A7 there, with new body and new AF system will make sense.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 07, 2017, 08:51:06 AM
To cut a long story short, the a7x line falls below the equivalent Nikon/Canon higher end bodies in some important physical features (double memory slot, more rugged design,...). The a9 line is designed to cover these.

and you are making an error assuming that A9 body design means A9R in Sony world... it won't - it will be A7R3...

Why would Sony not charge 5,000+ US$ if they were to release a 60+ mp body in the coming months? My view is that they will do this as a top of the line product features a non compromised feature set, and that means an a9r.

they simply release A7R3 which will cost some more $$$ vs A7R2, just like D850 is expected to cost more ...


My view isn't that Sony will release their high res body both in a9 and a7 versions, you'll have to get the a9 to get the best sensor.

my view is that economy of scale means that Sony simply reuse A9 body for all cameras... the difference will be only in sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 07, 2017, 09:10:41 AM
The reason is that the A7r2 is not the equal of the 5Ds or D810.

and vise versa ... all those camera lines are highest mp / not PJ cameras ... in that sense within each stable they occupy the same role

The D810 has better AF than the D3x (if not quite up to the contemporary D4s), while the 5Ds has an AF system that matches the 5D3. The D850 has apparently improved the AF even further (using the D5 system, although how well it performs compared to the D5 remains to be seen); Canon will almost certainly try to match this.

and what it has to do with A7R2 within Sony ecosystem ? A7R2 has better AF than A7R - thing do progress in dSLM world at its own pace


Meanwhile, the A7r2 isn't much more than a digital back - a fantastic sensor (and sensor stabilisation system) attached to not much of a camera. It is, in most ways, a unique system with bo equivalent in other manufacturers' lineups - no-one else matches a high-resolution, high-performance sensor with a bare-bones camera.

you continue to miss the point that A7R2 is way better camera than A7R (body, IS, EFCS, sensor, AF, etc = much, much more progress than D810 plug was vs D8**) and A7R3 will be better still ... it is not about Sony cameras being better cameras than C & N - it is about segmentation that each manufacturer makes... A7R3 will improve if possible on A7R2 AF

Sensor aside, the A9 has much more in common with the D810 and 5Ds than the A7r2 does; even in terms of data bandwidth, 20fps at 24MP is a similar bandwidth to the D850's purported 10fps at 46MP. With a 70MP sensor, an A9r could get to 6-7fps, for a frame rate somewhere between the D810 and D850.

you can't put sensor aside - in Sony stable sensor defines the segment and AF performance ... A9 is aimed at action/PJ segment and no matter what u say Sony was not aiming to compete with 24mp camera vs 5Ds|r or D8*** lines  ;D ...


So, an A9r, with the A9's AF system,

there is no A9's AF system, dear... it is dSLM, not dSLR... what AF can is defined by sensor capabilities...  A7R3 will have CDAF/PDAF on sensor capabale only to the extent that high MP sensor of that generation from Sony allows - all based on how fast readout will be possible and how effectively sensel size decrease will be compensated

If Sony only launches one high-resolution body, it will likely be more like a high-resolution, low-speed A9 than an A7r2 with a better sensor but few other features,

there will be one high mp body, it will bear A7R3 logo on A9 body :D ... a hint - unlike 1D* or D* series - there is no vertical grip integrated in A9

regardless of what the final name is.

it will be A7R3

I think
you don't
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 07, 2017, 09:24:51 AM
and you are making an error assuming that A9 body design means A9R in Sony world... it won't - it will be A7R3...

they simply release A7R3 which will cost some more $$$ vs A7R2, just like D850 is expected to cost more ...


my view is that economy of scale means that Sony simply reuse A9 body for all cameras... the difference will be only in sensor.

You are arguing over names, not capabilities.

Does it really make a difference whether a camera is called the A9r vs A7r3, or D850 vs D820, or 5Ds2 vs Super Rebel? Names can change on the whim of the marketing department. The substance is in the capabilities of the bodies, not what they're called, and you seem to be arguing that, regardless of what it's called, the new high-resolution Sony body will have similar capabilities (AF, dual slots, data throughput, EVF lag, construction, batteries, etc.) as the A9, rather than the A7r2. So, regardless of what it's called, it's basically an A9r - a high-resolution, but slower-shooting version of the A9.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 07, 2017, 10:18:50 AM
and vise versa ... all those camera lines are highest mp / not PJ cameras ... in that sense within each stable they occupy the same role

That doesn't mean they are equal in capability or can command the same price.

In the absence of anything better, the 7D2 fills the same role in Canon's range as the D500 does in Nikon's. That doesn't make a 7D2 the equal of a D500 in any way.

Quote
and what it has to do with A7R2 within Sony ecosystem ? A7R2 has better AF than A7R - thing do progress in dSLM world at its own pace

Yet its AF is still outdone by a lowly 6D or D610, at least as far as speed is concerned. Accurate, yes. But slow, and not up to the standard of an entry-level full-frame SLR.

Quote
you continue to miss the point that A7R2 is way better camera than A7R (body, IS, EFCS, sensor, AF, etc = much, much more progress than D810 plug was vs D8**) and A7R3 will be better still ... it is not about Sony cameras being better cameras than C & N - it is about segmentation that each manufacturer makes... A7R3 will improve if possible on A7R2 AF

That's because the A7r2 has some way to go before it even meets minimum acceptable standard for an entry-level full-frame camera, in terms of non-sensor performance.

But Sony defined its market segmentation with the announcement of the A9. They called it the 'A9', not the 'A7 3'. If the A7 line was meant to embody the pinnacle of Sony camera performance, they would have called it an A7 - after all, it took the A7 2's place as Sony's premier mid-resolution, general-purpose camera. But they didn't - they created a new A9 line and left the A7

Quote
you can't put sensor aside - in Sony stable sensor defines the segment and AF performance ... A9 is aimed at action/PJ segment and no matter what u say Sony was not aiming to compete with 24mp camera vs 5Ds|r or D8*** lines  ;D ...

By that argument, the A7, A7r and A7s are all aimed at the same segment. This is obviously not the case.

The A9 is aimed at action and speed. In this, it competes directly with the 5D4, 1Dx2 and D5 - other cameras optimised for the same roles and which could equally be considered by someone looking for a camera to fill that role. (I never said the A9 competes with the 5Ds, etc. and other resolution-oriented bodies - I mentioned the 5D4). That doesn't preclude the A9r being aimed at resolution and image quality, while retaining the A9's AF, build, battery, dual slot and other non-sensor capability, in exactly the same way the A7r2 is essentially a high-resolution, slower-shooting version of the A7 2. It would, therefore, compete directly with the high-resolution flagships of Canon and Nikon, both of which also have solid AF, build quality, dual slots, etc., in addition to their respective manufacturers' highest-resolution sensor.

Two different tiers, with the members of each tier differing chiefly in sensor resolution and frame rate, and the two tiers differing in non-IQ factors.

Quote
there is no A9's AF system, dear... it is dSLM, not dSLR... what AF can is defined by sensor capabilities...  A7R3 will have CDAF/PDAF on sensor capabale only to the extent that high MP sensor of that generation from Sony allows - all based on how fast readout will be possible and how effectively sensel size decrease will be compensated

AF performance is just as dependent, if not more so, on processor performance than what's on the AF sensor itself (in this case, the AF sensor is on the same piece of silicon as the imaging sensor). That's why the D4s focuses so much faster than the  D810, despite sharing the same AF sensor - the D4s has a dedicated AF processor, whereas the D810 does not.

Quote
there will be one high mp body, it will bear A7R3 logo on A9 body :D ... a hint - unlike 1D* or D* series - there is no vertical grip integrated in A9

it will be A7R3
you don't

And what makes you certain of this? Unless you have secret insight or access to Sony that no-one else has.

The 'A7r3' you've described has less in common with the A7r2 than the A9. You said it yourself. It's basically an A9 with a different sensor, and a price point more similar to the A9 series than the A7 series. So what makes you think it will be called A7r3 rather than A9r? Even from a marketing standpoint, discounting performance capabilities, the name 'A9r' would carry more weight than 'A7r3', provided the camera could, in any way, justify that name.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 10, 2017, 03:41:56 AM
It's looking more and more like the D850 is a 'super 5D4' than anything else - a general-purpose body designed to shoot everything, rather than a D810- or 5Ds-type body designed for non-action work.

With 46MP and 8-10fps, if it retains the AF capabilities of the D5 or D500, it could well be the ideal camera body for wildlife and field sports - even more so than the D5. More than fast enough to capture the moment, yet with much more resolution available for cropping. The D5 might be better in the darkest environments, but may not have any advantage in the critical ISO 400-6400 range.

As for its competitors, Canon may be able to match it with a 5Ds2 (depending on the emphasis on resolution vs speed) or a 5D5 (if it boosts resolution sufficiently - 30MP to 46MP may seem like a lot, but, in relative terms, it's less than 5D to 5D2). Sony seems less likely to, given that they have a speed-oriented A9 with 24MP (twice as fast, but half the resolution) and a likely high-resolution body with 60-80MP, but without the frame rate. 20fps may be good for bragging rights, but, in most situations, 10fps and double the resolution is probably more useful.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 10, 2017, 04:21:42 AM
Glad to see you agree with my analysis of the D850 positioning.

Sony will have to answer, this is the camera 90% of photographers will want.

My view is that Sony will call their answer a7rIII. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on August 10, 2017, 08:17:53 AM
One apparent disappointment from some is the fact that Nikon has continued to only use the snap bridge technology instead of traditional wifi.

Snap bridge seems to be proprietary and thus 3rd party apps for iPhone or android can't work.  There is an interesting post on Nikon rumors in regards to this from a few days ago. Written by Gunther Wegner in regards to time-lapse control.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/06/an-open-letter-to-nikon-by-gunther-wegner-timelapse-photography-with-nikon-cameras-and-our-problems-with-snapbridge.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/06/an-open-letter-to-nikon-by-gunther-wegner-timelapse-photography-with-nikon-cameras-and-our-problems-with-snapbridge.aspx/)

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement ... high frame rate via LiveView?
Post by: BJL on August 10, 2017, 09:16:36 AM
On the idea that the D850 could be more of an allrounder by offering a higher frame rate: LiveView has the potential to offer high frame rates in less expensive bodies, by avoiding the mechanical challenges of flipping the mirror at high rates while steadying it in-between to allow AF. Any speculation on whether Nikon (or Canon) will try this?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 10, 2017, 05:11:15 PM
Glad to see you agree with my analysis of the D850 positioning.

Sony will have to answer, this is the camera 90% of photographers will want.

My view is that Sony will call their answer a7rIII. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

50MP, 10fps and top-tier AF (1Dx2, D5/D500 or A9-level capability) is probably around the sweet spot for an action body. In fact, if the 46MP, 10fps and D5 AF module rumours are correct, the only reason no-one's calling it an action camera is because the D5 exists and shoots faster. But, provided AF capability is the same, 46MP and 10fps is going to be far more valuable than 20MP and 14fps for most action photography - wildlife and field sports are often focal length limited, making increased pixel density valuable for cropping, while the ability to crop for composition also comes in useful when shooting moving subjects with primes and not being able to zoom or move to change the composition (e.g. head vs upper body vs whole body shots). And the ability to shoot marginally-usable shots at ISO 102400 (or completely useless shots at ISO 3.2 million) is mostly meaningless bragging rights when the vast majority of shots take place at ISO 400-6400, or maybe ISO 12800 at a stretch.

This would make the Canon 5D5 a more likely competitor (beefed up to 45-50MP and with an AF system equal to Canon's best of the day), relegating the 5Ds2 to competing with Sony's 60-80MP body. The alternatives would either mean that the 5Ds2 becomes a 'super 5D', with the 5D4/5D5 being relegated to a lower line, or Canon ignores the D850 entirely, leaving the 1Dx as a fast-shooting but low-resolution body, the 5D line as a slightly higher-resolution body that still lacks the cropability of the D850 and the 5Ds2 becoming a high-resolution body to compete with Sony's, but without the frame rate to make it useful as an action camera, ceding the wildlife and field sports ground to Nikon without a competitive replacement.

Of course, if it can't match the D5 or D500 AF-wise, this all goes out the window.

As for the Sony competitor:

Sony has a 60-80MP sensor in the pipeline. This will almost certainly go into the flagship high-resolution model - Sony intends to own the high-resolution, non-action game. But this camera cannot also have the 8-10fps capability to be an action body, unless it's priced well above the D850/D5/A9/1Dx2/5Ds2, in which case it would lose on price. Even if it had the A9's AF system (and there's really no reason it shouldn't have the best AF Sony can produce), if it shot at 5fps it still wouldn't be a primary action body. It would work well as a second action body (while serving as a primary non-action camera in a two-body kit) and for 'sniping'-type action shots (tracking a target, then triggering the shutter at the right moment); as a primary action body, it wouldn't be embarrassingly unusable (like, say, a D3x, A7r2 or 5D2) but would fall well short of other bodies out there.

The A9's capabilities are well known - it shoots faster than anything else out there that isn't a video camera, and, unlike a video camera, retains full AF tracking while doing so. It shoots faster than necessary most of the time and lacks the cropability of the D850; on the other hand, it's going toe-to-toe with the 1Dx2 and D5 for sports (likely more so after Sony releases a few long telephotos) and has found an interested audience in event and wedding photographers.

Between these two systems, there really isn't anything that covers wildlife and field sports to the same degree as the rumoured D850 specs - the high-resolution body has the resolution but doesn't shoot fast enough, while the A9 has too low a resolution for significant cropping. So there's probably room for something there - again, in the 45-54MP, 10fps range. 45MP cropped by 1.5x would give you 20MP, while 54MP would give you 24MP - similar to the crop-sensor options out there, with more flexibility. Regarding the AF system, it would actually make more sense to put the A9 system (or whatever the top AF system of the day happens to be) into this model rather than into the top-resolution model, since this one is more likely to be used for fast action. Naturally, it would be better to have all three models share the same, top-tier AF system, but if one of them has to have a weaker system (for market segmentation or whatever other reason) it should be the ultra-high-resolution version, rather than this one.

I find it improbable that Sony will find room for four different full-frame lineups. The high-resolution (60-80MP) and resolution-action (45-54MP, 8-10fps) versions seem fairly mandatory, given the competition and Sony's known development of high-resolution sensors (and its own advertising - GM lenses 'capable of handling up to 100MP'), while the A9 has only recently been released and has the unique cachet of being faster than anything else out there.

But Sony also has the A7s line, designed for high-ISO shooting, which either means shooting in the dark or freezing the action of fast-moving subjects. The thing is, with the A7s' AF system, it can't track fast-moving subjects very well, even if it can freeze their action well, and lacks the frame rate to effectively shoot fast subjects - it may be able to freeze the action at ISO 25600, but that doesn't mean it's going to freeze the moment you actually want.

Could it be that the A7s-line sensor is dead, replaced by the A9 with its 24MP sensor, high frame rate and shoot-in-the-dark AF capability? After all, the ability to shoot noise-free shots in the dark is pretty useless without the ability to focus quickly and accurately in the same darkness, the A9's sensor is just about as good with regards to high-ISO detail, and the 12MP sensor hasn't been updated since the first A7s was released.

If so, this would leave the A9 as the high speed/low light camera, a 60-80MP, slow-shooting camera as the resolution king and something in-between, in the 45-54MP range, as the general action camera. Pick and choose your models as required for the job. For a two-body kit, I could personally use a 70-80MP body as my main landscape body (and providing useful backup for wildlife and action), together with a 45-54MP action body for cropable wildlife shots (and retaining sufficient resolution to provide useful backup for landscapes).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 10, 2017, 05:59:04 PM
Sony has a 60-80MP sensor in the pipeline.

References? Has this sensor been in Sony presentations like the 100 MP 33x44mm one or the 150 MP 40x54mm one?

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on August 10, 2017, 06:28:07 PM
References? Has this sensor been in Sony presentations like the 100 MP 33x44mm one or the 150 MP 40x54mm one?
It all seems to come from two posts at http://www.sonyalpharumors.com then quoted by numerous other sites, possibly giving the illusion that "many sources are saying ..."
- First in April 2016, the 70-80MP version: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-first-a7riii-rumors-7080-megapixel-and-improved-ibis/
- Then in June 2017, a downward revision to "around 60MP": http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-first-60-reliable-info-a7riii-says-around-60-70-megapixels/
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 10, 2017, 06:31:33 PM
It all seems to come from two posts at http://www.sonyalpharumors.com then quoted by numerous other sites, possibly giving the illusion that "many sources are saying ..."
- First in April 2016, the 70-80MP version: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-first-a7riii-rumors-7080-megapixel-and-improved-ibis/
- Then in June 2017, a downward revision to "around 60MP": http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-first-60-reliable-info-a7riii-says-around-60-70-megapixels/

If that's all there is, that's pretty thin gruel. Not like the PowerPoints for the larger sensors at all. But then again, they have to be sold to camera manufacturers, at least for now.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 11, 2017, 12:42:50 AM
If that's all there is, that's pretty thin gruel. Not like the PowerPoints for the larger sensors at all. But then again, they have to be sold to camera manufacturers, at least for now.

Jim

On the other hand, the same source was right about the A6500, A9 and lens releases, and has apparently been corroborated by two other sources. I don't think SAR has ever been wrong with  'SR5' rumour before - even with lens announcements that sounded more outlandish - and it was mentioned that the only reason this wasn't SR5 was due to the possibility at that stage of specific details being changed beforr a final announcement.

It wouldn't surprise me if the 'source' was Sony itself - not yet ready to make a product announcement (even a detail-free, Nikon-style 'It's coming' announcement, as for the D850, requires a product name - is it A7r3 or A9r?), but wanting to get it out there that they had a product in the pipeline, for potential switchers to wait rather than buy the next thing Canon or Nikon release.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 11, 2017, 04:29:08 AM
For sure there is going to be a Sony camera with higher mp count, after all, they made a big fuss on how their GM lenses were designed to cater for 100 mp sensors.

My only doubt is in which line of camera they will deploy this first, A7 or A9?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 11, 2017, 11:36:21 AM
NikonRumors.com posted some more information on the D850 from leaked advertising photos. See that site for more details. Here is what most interests me:

No low-pass filter

ISO from 64 to 25600 (hope it is the same or better ISO 64)

No mechanical vibration using LiveView for still images.

New “Natural Light” AWB

45-Mpx

Uses Expeed 5 (same as D5)

Focus-Stacking: Focus-adjusting system, max of 300 layers, customized release (0 to 30 sec), customizable 10 steps).
130% frame coverage compared to the D810

Uses D5 153 AF System

This camera is looking better and better.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 03:55:45 PM
It looks like it was designed per your own personnal specs Michael. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on August 11, 2017, 04:13:27 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KnuLgyznU_w


Biggest optical viewfinder in Nikon history...

(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Nikon-D850-presentation-slides6.jpg)


Who said viewfinders were dead...

 :D
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 11, 2017, 04:29:33 PM
It looks like it was designed per your own personnal specs Michael. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Yep, provided it all works like they paint it. That 64 ISO has to be as good as the D810 or better. Since I am lens oriented, I may be very glad I waited for this camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
The D850 really looks like the last DSLR anyone would ever need prior to a full transition to mirrorless when all the technological building blocks will really be ready for uncompromised photography.

Thanks to Nikon for continuying to push the bar forward.

A close friend not really interested in photography till date asked me advise yesterday about what high end camera he should be buying. He started by asking me about D500/D750, I pushed him towards the a7rIIi... he tried it and his comments were... what a terrible viewfinder, what a poor UI.

Since video was important to him also, I advised him to look at Canon too, and he is now hesitating betwn a 5DIV today or waiting for the D850 in a few months...

It reminded me of all the compromises mirrorless shooters have been accepting with the current generation of bodies.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 11, 2017, 04:59:18 PM
The D850 really looks like the last DSLR anyone would ever need prior to a full transition to mirrorless when all the technological building blocks will really be ready for uncompromised photography.

Thanks to Nikon for continuying to push the bar forward.

A close friend not really interested in photography till date asked me advise yesterday about what high end camera he should be buying. He started by asking me about D500/D750, I pushed him towards the a7rIIi... he tried it and his comments were... what a terrible viewfinder, what a poor UI.

Since video was important to him also, I advised him to look at Canon too, and he is now hesitating betwn a 5DIV today or waiting for the D850 in a few months...

It reminded me of all the compromises mirrorless shooters have been accepting with the current generation of bodies.

Cheers,
Bernard

Have you tried the A9 yet? All those issues are fixed, and the viewfinder is more functional than I've seen in any SLR. The only reason I don't own one is because 24MP isn't nearly enough for my needs.

Even with the A7r2, I never had a problem with the UI or the viewfinder. The rear LCD is great, and very easy to use. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever actually looked through the viewfinder, or took a shot without a tripod...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 05:21:04 PM
Have you tried the A9 yet? All those issues are fixed, and the viewfinder is more functional than I've seen in any SLR. The only reason I don't own one is because 24MP isn't nearly enough for my needs.

Even with the A7r2, I never had a problem with the UI or the viewfinder. The rear LCD is great, and very easy to use. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever actually looked through the viewfinder, or took a shot without a tripod...

No need to try to convince me, I am just reporting a totally unbiased feedback from someone who has zero pre-existing brand or technology preference. Granted, he tried that a7rII but the a9 is too expensive for him.

To your question, I have myself not tried the a9 yet either. I am personnally not interested since it is overall IMHO mostly a downgrade from my D5 for my action photography needs centered about AF performance on moving subjects with pro grade tele lenses. I may have added one to my line up had it been more affordable, but not at its current price point. I have much better ways to spend 5,000 US$ + lenses cost, starting with my new packraft. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 11, 2017, 07:18:08 PM
Perhaps a very real remaining worry is that the dynamic range of the D850 will not match the D810, which puts those of us into landscape and nature photos in a bind. Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 07:44:15 PM
Perhaps a very real remaining worry is that the dynamic range of the D850 will not match the D810, which puts those of us into landscape and nature photos in a bind. Any thoughts on this?

Hard to tell. The fact that they kept an ISO64 makes me think they understand that many photographers value the D810 thanks to its class defining base ISO image quality.

Nikon has very rarely been unable to achieve technically what their mgt defines as needed specs.

I would bet that the DR at base ISO will be excellent, but only measurment will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 11, 2017, 08:08:26 PM
No need to try to convince me, I am just reporting a totally unbiased feedback from someone who has zero pre-existing brand or technology preference. Granted, he tried that a7rII but the a9 is too expensive for him.

To your question, I have myself not tried the a9 yet either. I am personnally not interested since it is overall IMHO mostly a downgrade from my D5 for my action photography needs centered about AF performance on moving subjects with pro grade tele lenses. I may have added one to my line up had it been more affordable, but not at its current price point. I have much better ways to spend 5,000 US$ + lenses cost, starting with my new packraft. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Definitely a downgrade for most action photography - but that's due to the lens lineup rather than the body.

I'd say the body itself represents a modest upgrade from the D5 - similar AF tracking capabilities (I couldn't tell them apart when using them - both tracked more-or-less perfectly), the addition of the very-useful eye AF and a few more megapixels. It probably gives up some durability (the D5 is built like a tank) but weighs half as much and has fewer mechanical parts that can fail in the first place. It has near-identical performance at high ISO (better at some levels, worse at others); it has better low-ISO DR, but that is of little consequence for action photography.

I never expected the A9 to be that good - I expected 5D3- or 5D4-level AF performance, with mirrorless only catching up to the dedicated action cameras in the next iteration. But Sony outdid themselves with advances in mirrorless AF technology (and, equally, with EVF performance).

But, with no long, fast lenses - 400 f/2.8, 500 f/4, 200-400 f/4, etc. - it's currently more-or-less unusable for serious wildlife or field sports. The only option is the newly-released 100-400, which, while looking great as a general telephoto lens for landscape and other use, and suitable for the occasional animal or sports shot, is neither long nor fast enough for dedicated wildlife or field sports use. So, for now, the 1Dx2, D5, D500 and possibly 5D4 and 5Ds (if you need pixel density more than frame rate and ultimate AF performance) are your only real choices for sports and wildlife. This is changing - a 400 f/2.8 or 400 f/4 is supposed to be coming at the end of the year - but, until then, the A9 is relegated to event, wedding and photojournalism roles, which it does very well (better than the 5D3/5D4 and D750, which previously owned this sector - eye AF and real exposure simulation via the EVF make a big difference here).

If the D850 delivers AF-wise and keeps up with the current action bodies in the ISO 3200-12800 range, it will likely blow all of them out of the water as an action camera, becoming the preferred model unless you absolutely need 14fps (vs 9fps) or live at ISO 25600 and above.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 11, 2017, 08:17:41 PM
Perhaps a very real remaining worry is that the dynamic range of the D850 will not match the D810, which puts those of us into landscape and nature photos in a bind. Any thoughts on this?

Only until someone develops a Nikon-to-Sony adapter that works well with all Nikon lenses.

Then it'd be just like what many Canon shooters have been doing for years - use an ultra-high-resolution, high-DR Sony body for nonmoving subjects, while keeping the D850 for moving subjects (and as a second body for landscapes), using the Nikon lenses on both bodies. It's not like you need AF when shooting landscapes, so carrying a D850 along with an A7r3 or A9r would be no more difficult than carrying a D850 with a backup Nikon body. It's not an ideal solution, but it's very workable.

Even if the D850 keeps up DR-wise, this may end up being a good option for dedicated landscape photographers who want a camera with the greatest possible resolution on a full-frame camera, as well as the use of a few UWAs and tilt-shifts that can't be put onto a Nikon camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
Only until someone develops a Nikon-to-Sony adapter that works well with all Nikon lenses.

Then it'd be just like what many Canon shooters have been doing for years - use an ultra-high-resolution, high-DR Sony body for nonmoving subjects, while keeping the D850 for moving subjects (and as a second body for landscapes), using the Nikon lenses on both bodies. It's not like you need AF when shooting landscapes, so carrying a D850 along with an A7r3 or A9r would be no more difficult than carrying a D850 with a backup Nikon body. It's not an ideal solution, but it's very workable.

Even if the D850 keeps up DR-wise, this may end up being a good option for dedicated landscape photographers who want a camera with the greatest possible resolution on a full-frame camera, as well as the use of a few UWAs and tilt-shifts that can't be put onto a Nikon camera.

Future will tell, my view remains that Nikon will release a body above the D850 for higher res applcations.

As far as T/S lenses go, the current reference is the Nikon 19mm.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 11, 2017, 09:32:24 PM
Future will tell, my view remains that Nikon will release a body above the D850 for higher res applcations.

As far as T/S lenses go, the current reference is the Nikon 19mm.

Cheers,
Bernard

A single 19mm lens won't get you very far. It fills pretty much the same role as Canon's 17mm.

But Nikon's 24mm tilt-shift doesn't hold a candle to Canon's, and 24mm is likely a far more used focal length (either for single frames or for shift-stitching). And Canon looks set to release new 50mm, 90mm and 135mm tilt-shifts in the next few months. Given that whose top-tier lens in any given category is sharper tends to correlate strongly with which one is newer, these new lenses should be very sharp indeed.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: siddhaarta on August 11, 2017, 10:16:28 PM
Perhaps a very real remaining worry is that the dynamic range of the D850 will not match the D810, which puts those of us into landscape and nature photos in a bind. Any thoughts on this?

Interesting question. If the rumors are right that this is a upscaled D500 sensor (pixelpitch seems to confirm that), maybe this site helps to have an idea:

Dynamik Range (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

That would mean, 1 stop less than the D810 at base ISO. But sure, the final result will depend on other factors .... time will tell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 11, 2017, 11:10:48 PM
A single 19mm lens won't get you very far. It fills pretty much the same role as Canon's 17mm.

But Nikon's 24mm tilt-shift doesn't hold a candle to Canon's, and 24mm is likely a far more used focal length (either for single frames or for shift-stitching). And Canon looks set to release new 50mm, 90mm and 135mm tilt-shifts in the next few months. Given that whose top-tier lens in any given category is sharper tends to correlate strongly with which one is newer, these new lenses should be very sharp indeed.

Actually... the Nikon 24mm T/S is sharper than the Canon 24mm in the center and with the typical amount of modrate tilt used for landscape work. Where it falls short is with large amounts of shift.

It is an excellent landscape lens but not a very good architecture one.

The lens is old and is likely to be replaced soon. Based on the 19mm level of performance I am not worried.

The other Nikon T/S (45mm and 85mm) are excellent and totally comparable to the current generation of Canon T/S but also due for a replacement. I would expect the rumored Canon new T/S to be excellent indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 12, 2017, 04:31:12 AM
Interesting question. If the rumors are right that this is a upscaled D500 sensor (pixelpitch seems to confirm that), maybe this site helps to have an idea:

Dynamik Range (http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)

That would mean, 1 stop less than the D810 at base ISO. But sure, the final result will depend on other factors .... time will tell


I will not speculate about the dynamic range of the D850 this way... for starters the D500 sensor is an ASP-C sensor... just for being smaller has less dynamic range, and then, it is a sensor optimized for speed. If Nikon is still making D850 base ISO 64 it is more optimized for DR.


Michael, my theory it is that the D850 will use at least the same technology as de A7r II an BSI CMOS, that collects more light and has lower noise than the previous technology used in the D810. A7r II has a close dynamic range as the D810 (in different analysis... ), I will be very surprise if the D850, if ISO 64 is true, does not have more DR than the D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 12, 2017, 04:34:59 AM

Since video was important to him also, I advised him to look at Canon too, and he is now hesitating betwn a 5DIV today or waiting for the D850 in a few months...

It reminded me of all the compromises mirrorless shooters have been accepting with the current generation of bodies.

Cheers,
Bernard


If he goes with the 5D Mark IV and it is interested in video, tell him that he will need to check Canon upgrade for the camera for video (not sure if it is already available)... or an external recorder, if not, with the actual Canon codec, he will have ridiculous file sizes... I think the 1D does not have this problem
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 05:53:46 AM
Thanks for the tip.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
Actually... the Nikon 24mm T/S is sharper than the Canon 24mm in the center and with the typical amount of modrate tilt used for landscape work. Where it falls short is with large amounts of shift.

It is an excellent landscape lens but not a very good architecture one.

The lens is old and is likely to be replaced soon. Based on the 19mm level of performance I am not worried.

The other Nikon T/S (45mm and 85mm) are excellent and totally comparable to the current generation of Canon T/S but also due for a replacement. I would expect the rumored Canon new T/S to be excellent indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Actually, wide-angle tilt-shifts are used in landscape photography more for the shift than the tilt, particularly in panoramic shots. At 24mm, it's not hard to get everything you want in focus without any tilt; however, stitching a rotational panorama with the angle of view of a 14mm lens (what you get when you shift-stitch a 24mm tilt-shift) requires a lot of distortion and subsequent loss of detail. So shift-stitching becomes a good option, provided you have a tilt-shift that's sharp enough when shifted.

At longer focal lengths, tilt becomes a lot more useful for getting everything in focus; at the same time, shift is far less needed for landscapes, since stitching a rotational panorama with a narrower angle of view introduces far less distortion, while the centre of a lens is going to be much sharper than the shifted edges of a tilt-shift.

Then there are cityscapes, which contain lots of strong verticals needing to be made parallel...

The PC-E 19 has a leg up on the TS-E 17 most likely because it's 7 years newer and 2mm longer (so a less extreme design). 7 years is a very long time in lens design.

The current Canon TS-E 45 and 90 lenses are literally antiques from the film era, not designed with 50MP sensors in mind and long overdue for a replacement. The Nikons were released in 1998, 17 years later, when the A900 and D3x were around.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 06:56:39 AM

I will not speculate about the dynamic range of the D850 this way... for starters the D500 sensor is an ASP-C sensor... just for being smaller has less dynamic range, and then, it is a sensor optimized for speed. If Nikon is still making D850 base ISO 64 it is more optimized for DR.


Michael, my theory it is that the D850 will use at least the same technology as de A7r II an BSI CMOS, that collects more light and has lower noise than the previous technology used in the D810. A7r II has a close dynamic range as the D810 (in different analysis... ), I will be very surprise if the D850, if ISO 64 is true, does not have more DR than the D810.

Bear in mind, though, that the D810 has the same DR at ISO 64 as the D800e and A7r at ISO 100. This continues all the way up the curve - at any given ISO, the D810 has about half a stop less DR than the other two, while, for any given DR, the D810 needs to be set at an ISO around half a stop lower than the other two. It only makes up for this at low ISO by having a base ISO around half a stop lower than the others.

In other words, the lower ISO of the D810 does not equate to more DR. I'm not sure if it's used to gain more colour depth or something else, but not DR.

The D850 also has a base ISO of 64. Who knows if that's a real ISO or a pulled ISO 100 shot? If it's a real one, does it sacrifice high-ISO DR for this (which would take away from its utility as an action camera), or does it at least match the D5/A9/A7r2 at ISO 3200-12800?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 07:14:59 AM
Bear in mind, though, that the D810 has the same DR at ISO 64 as the D800e and A7r at ISO 100. This continues all the way up the curve - at any given ISO, the D810 has about half a stop less DR than the other two, while, for any given DR, the D810 needs to be set at an ISO around half a stop lower than the other two. It only makes up for this at low ISO by having a base ISO around half a stop lower than the others.

In other words, the lower ISO of the D810 does not equate to more DR. I'm not sure if it's used to gain more colour depth or something else, but not DR.

This is simply not correct.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 07:20:22 AM
Actually, wide-angle tilt-shifts are used in landscape photography more for the shift than the tilt, particularly in panoramic shots. At 24mm, it's not hard to get everything you want in focus without any tilt; however, stitching a rotational panorama with the angle of view of a 14mm lens (what you get when you shift-stitch a 24mm tilt-shift) requires a lot of distortion and subsequent loss of detail. So shift-stitching becomes a good option, provided you have a tilt-shift that's sharp enough when shifted.

Not sure how to put it, but frankly you don't seem to have much first hand experience with spherical stitching... nor with the value of tilt for landscape images, be it with a 24mm lens.

I'll keep it a that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 07:40:47 AM
Not sure how to put it, but frankly you don't seem to have much first hand experience with spherical stitching... nor with the value of tilt for landscape images, be it with a 24mm lens.

I'll keep it a that.

Cheers,
Bernard

'Not much first-hand experience'?

Each one of those probably accounts for a third of all the shots I've ever taken. I also print huge sizes (1x3m is common), so it's not like I don't care about sharpness/resolution or focus either. I know what spherical stitching can and can't do. When stretching it into a UWA rectilinear shot, I've seen the stretching and blurring of corners (you don't get that if you use a cylindrical or spherical projection, but those don't keep straight lines straight). It's simple geometry.

As for tilt at 24mm for landscapes, you probably lose less resolution stopping down to f/10 or so if you really need the DOF vs tilting it. You need it at longer focal lengths, since even stopping down to f/14-f/16 won't give you enough DOF, but what are you trying to shoot at 24mm that calls for that, even when you're very close to the ground?

Some rotational panoramas attached.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 12, 2017, 07:43:25 AM
'Not much first-hand experience'?

Each one of those probably accounts for a third of all the shots I've ever taken. I also print huge sizes (1x3m is common), so it's not like I don't care about sharpness/resolution or focus either. I know what spherical stitching can and can't do. When stretching it into a UWA rectilinear shot, I've seen the stretching and blurring of corners (you don't get that if you use a cylindrical or spherical projection, but those don't keep straight lines straight). It's simple geometry.

As for tilt at 24mm for landscapes, you probably lose less resolution stopping down to f/10 or so if you really need the DOF vs tilting it. You need it at longer focal lengths, since even stopping down to f/14-f/16 won't give you enough DOF, but what are you trying to shoot at 24mm that calls for that, even when you're very close to the ground?

Some rotational panoramas attached.


I have already told you before... but I really like your work


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 07:44:17 AM
This is simply not correct.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sure. Don't believe me. See for yourself: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R)

A7r at ISO 100 - 11.71 stops
D800e at ISO 100 - 11.45 stops
D810 at ISO 100 - 11.06 stops

Dialling the D810 down to ISO 64 gives you 11.6 stops - in between the values for the other two at ISO 100.

Are you saying these PDR measurements are wrong?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 07:49:51 AM
Sure. Don't believe me. See for yourself: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R)

A7r at ISO 100 - 11.71 stops
D800e at ISO 100 - 11.45 stops
D810 at ISO 100 - 11.06 stops

Dialling the D810 down to ISO 64 gives you 11.6 stops - in between the values for the other two at ISO 100.

Are you saying these PDR measurements are wrong?

I am looking at this: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Nikon-D810___1106_1035_963

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 07:53:59 AM
'Not much first-hand experience'?

Each one of those probably accounts for a third of all the shots I've ever taken. I also print huge sizes (1x3m is common), so it's not like I don't care about sharpness/resolution or focus either. I know what spherical stitching can and can't do. When stretching it into a UWA rectilinear shot, I've seen the stretching and blurring of corners (you don't get that if you use a cylindrical or spherical projection, but those don't keep straight lines straight). It's simple geometry.

Nice images, thanks for sharing.

Yes, there is of course some stretching happening when using flat projection, but the image quality you can reach in corners is still significantly superior compared to what you get with a T/S shifted all the way, be it with the Canon 24mm T/S.

This does of course depend on the focal length used to so the spherical stitching. I am typically using focal lengths longer than 55mm, often 100 or more (up to my 400mm f2.8 in fact).

A recent example shot with the H6D-100c and a 100mm, which would correspond to a 60mm in 35mm terms.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4421/36362782331_72a7c68049_o.jpg)

You'll find hundreds of other examples here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/albums/72157600916381270

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bclaff on August 12, 2017, 01:16:45 PM
Sure. Don't believe me. See for yourself: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D800E,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7R)

A7r at ISO 100 - 11.71 stops
D800e at ISO 100 - 11.45 stops
D810 at ISO 100 - 11.06 stops

Dialling the D810 down to ISO 64 gives you 11.6 stops - in between the values for the other two at ISO 100.

Are you saying these PDR measurements are wrong?
I am looking at this: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Nikon-D810___1106_1035_963

Cheers,
Bernard
You both may find this interactive Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) versus DxOMark Landscape Dynamic Range (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_Landscape_scatter.htm) scatter chart interesting. (static image attached).
PDR at PhotonsToPhotos is a different measure than the Landscape score at DxOMark.
I have always contended that PDR is more meaningful.
For example, DxOMark places the D7200 above the D600, D610, D750, D800, and D800E whereas PDR does not; do you really think that excellent APS-C sensor outperforms all those FF ones?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
Yes, I do having used a D7200.

Incredibly clean shadows.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 05:24:59 PM
Nice images, thanks for sharing.

Yes, there is of course some stretching happening when using flat projection, but the image quality you can reach in corners is still significantly superior compared to what you get with a T/S shifted all the way, be it with the Canon 24mm T/S.

This does of course depend on the focal length used to so the spherical stitching. I am typically using focal lengths longer than 55mm, often 100 or more (up to my 400mm f2.8 in fact).

A recent example shot with the H6D-100c and a 100mm, which would correspond to a 60mm in 35mm.

You'll find hundreds of other examples here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/albums/72157600916381270

Cheers,
Bernard

It depends on the total angle of view rather than the angle of view/focal length of the individual frame. A panorama with a narrow angle of view (e.g. the monastery in my post, consisting of two stitched 420mm shots) requires almost no distortion. Something covering a very wide angle of view requires a lot of distortion, like the edges of a rectilinear UWA lens.

A shift-stitched panorama from a 24mm tilt-shift is going to have sharper corners than a rotational panorama of the same angle of view taken using a 24mm lens, or even a 35mm lens. You can probably get as much corner detail  (and more central detail) using a 50mm lens, but that requires many more frames and much larger file sizes.

Also, rotational techniques complicate the use of filters  (especiall GNDs and panoramas).

With a 90mm lens, you wouldn't shift-stitch, unless you specifically needed to do so due to filters or to deal with parallax (nodal offset systems being clumsy, heavy and usually unnecessary, except when dealing with very close foreground elements that are going to show up in more than one frame of the panorama). At the angle of view subtended by a 90mm lens shifted fully in each direction, there would be little rectilinear distortion required to rotationally stitch the same image, and you'd probably get sharper results just keeping the lens in the centre position and rotationally stitching the images.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 06:58:54 PM
Ok, we agree.

For me stitching isn't just about aspect ratio, it is about added resolution also, which means that nearly never stitch with lenses wider than 55mm.

And 95% of the thousands of stitches I have made in the past 10+ years were with a dedicated pano head. It decreases significantly the issues with parallax and philosophically increases the "correctness" of the image. But I understand most would consider this attention to details overdone and pointless. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 12, 2017, 07:59:43 PM
Ok, we agree.

For me stitching isn't just about aspect ratio, it is about added resolution also.

And 95% of the thousands of stitches I have made in the past 10+ years were with a dedicated pano head.

Cheers,
Bernard

I look at it in terms of effective sensor area and pixels per inch at final print size.

Shift-stitching using a lens that can go 12mm in each direction gives me an effective sensor area of 24x60mm horizontally, or 36x48mm vertically. This gives an effective sensor width equal to or greater than Phase One digital backs (since most of my shots are between 1:2 and 1:3 aspect ratio, the height limitation doesn't come into play much). A 1.4x TC increases this to 24x70mm horizontally or 36x58mm vertically, although obviously at a different focal length. A single frame from a modern MFDB contains a lot of detail - as much as a large-format film shot - and is suitable for printing at a large size.

PPI is another issue. Shift-stitched horizontally (without TC), an A7r2 gives me enough pixels for 150ppi at almost 90" print width. A 60MP 24x36mm sensor would give me enough for around 105", or 200ppi at greater than 72" width  (for a 24x72" print), while 70MP would give enough for 115".

For a shift-stitched panorama, the effective sensor area and PPI are evenly distributed - there is as much in the corner as thete is in the centre.

Effective sensor area and PPI for rotational panoramas are a bit more difficult to calculate, depending on the angle of view of the final image, the projection (rectilinear, cylindrical or spherical) as well as the focal length of the lens. Not only that, but it's unevenly distributed - there is more sensor area and more PPI contributing to the centre of the image than the corners. You can calculate what focal length you need to shoot at (and how many frames it will take) to get the same or more PPI and sensor area contributing to the corners on a rotational panorama as compared to a shifted panorama.  The sharpness aspect is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the rotational panorama uses the sharper part of the lens than the shifted edge of a tilt-shift, but the effective sensor area and its implications in terms of noise still apply. If you don't have enough sensor area contributing to the corners, if they're stretched from too small an area of sensor, you'll have noisy corners, regardless of how sharp the lens you shot it with is.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 12, 2017, 08:05:10 PM
Ok, we agree.

For me stitching isn't just about aspect ratio, it is about added resolution also, which means that nearly never stitch with lenses wider than 55mm.

I agree (with some reasoned exceptions) to the higher resolution aspect of stitching.

Quote
And 95% of the thousands of stitches I have made in the past 10+ years were with a dedicated pano head. It decreases significantly the issues with parallax and philosophically increases the "correctness" of the image. But I understand most would consider this attention to details overdone and pointless. ;)

Indeed, but count me out on some (!) of the 'correctness'. It's the resulting image, and whether it relays my creative intent, that matters.

Attached, an up-close (for perspective) hugely reduced 2-row, 6-image, TS-E 45mm Pano-shot (using RRS multi-row pano gear) with my Canon camera+lens (tilt used for focus plane), to retain the wider angle-of-view look that's inherent from looking at the resulting image from too far a viewing distance (intended to add to the mystery/drama) of the scene, one of the several different ones that I shot in an urban exploration (Urbex) environment of an abandoned (now demolished) warehouse in Antwerp.

Likewise, I've shot a number of hyper-resolution Pano images and attached a small crop of a larger 'Autumn soil-texture' image (with a 135 mm lens on a 24x36mm sensor).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 08:37:15 PM
Bart,

Nice image from my home country. ;)

Sorry, not 100% sure I got your point nor how you captured the image though.

Is that a spherical pano or a flat stitch done by shifting your T/S lens?

I am also not too sure what all this has to do with the D850... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 12, 2017, 08:47:04 PM
Bart,

Nice image from my home country. ;)

Sorry, not 100% sure I got your point nor how you captured the image though.

Is that a spherical pano or a flat stitch done by shifting your T/S lens?

Rotational stitch, using the lens' tilt capability for improved focus plane resolution.
 
Quote
I am also not too sure what all this has to do with the D850... ;)

None whatsoever, as far as the D850 is concerned (since it's not available yet ;) ),  but everything as far as stitching for resolution is concerned.

My point being that stitching offers ultimate freedom in composition/resolution, if the subject's (lack of) motion allows.
 
Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 09:03:09 PM
Rotational stitch, using the lens' tilt capability for improved focus plane resolution.

Ok, clear, thanks.

This is indeed exactly how I have been using my T/S lenses also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 12, 2017, 09:22:34 PM
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/12/nikon-d850-specifications-recap.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2017, 12:14:44 AM
A shift-stitched panorama from a 24mm tilt-shift is going to have sharper corners than a rotational panorama of the same angle of view taken using a 24mm lens, or even a 35mm lens.

Not my experience with the Nikon 24 T/S.

.http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/stitched-panos-slide-or-spin/

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 13, 2017, 02:27:41 AM
Not my experience with the Nikon 24 T/S.

.http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/stitched-panos-slide-or-spin/

Jim

Obviously - the Nikon PC-E 24 is well-known to have crap edges. It wouldn't take much to beat it.

Try the same with the PC-E 19 and it will be a different story.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on August 13, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
As one who stitched almost a lot over the years with wides, I would disagree that the edges will not hold up to a similar image taken with a TS-E lens.  I stitch for increased FOV, with existing lens or creation of panoramas.  A normal TS-E PC-E lens or Rodenstock on Arca in 3 stitched of 12mm max will not IMO give you anything near a true panorama.  Even pushing the Arca to 20mm will not get there for me.  Just an opinion, but one from thousands of stitched exposures over the past 15 years. 

Also shifting either in 35mm or MF, is pushing a lens to the edges of the lenses Image circle, thus I can't ever see how a max shift of 12mm on 35mm will ever be as sharp as 3 rotational images from a good sharp 24mm lens.  Even the Rodenstock and Schneider tech lenses can start to show a bit of smearing as you hit the edges of the IC of these lenses, albeit they will hold up better than any 35mm PC-E or TS-E lens I have tried in a wide.  I have not tried the new Nikon 19mm, but have owned and used both of the wide Canon's 17mm and 24mm TS-EII lenses.  I also tried the Nikon 24mm PC-E and through many examples it was not a good lens when shifted past 5mm.  Nikon is long over due for a fix and I guess the 19mm was to be that. 

I used both Canon and Nikon tilt shift lenses for years, then Zork and MF and the Rodenstock and Arca with P1.  All can produce images that are very sharp edge to edge, but I can get the same degree of image quality using a Nikon 14-24 and D810 @ 24mm and vertical images stitched to create a landscape oriented image or @ 18mm even 14mm and horizontal pans.  The corners hold up fine for me.  I also get the same degree of sharpness with a P1 back and XF with the 35mm or 40-80 zoom. 

I agree that such shifting can and will cause problems if you are using any type of filter since your rotation will create different aspect of how the light is being transfer to the sensor, and a Cl-PL is by far the hardest.  Here the TS-E or Tech camera is an advantage.

Darker corners, and noise, were problems I agree again, but if you take a LCC frame and use C1 for the images the results are excellent.  LCC correct the light fall off and color cast issue even for a 35mm camera and TS-E glass and the noise is also much better.

Downsides are the same thing in that the LCC process is cumbersome, add much more work to the project and slows down the process totally.  But it's a necessary part of the workflow, which is why I prefer to stitch without such tools for landscape work. 

If I was working structures with known dimensions i.e. buildings, interiors, cars, etc, then I quickly fall back to the PC-E TS-E Arca tech solution but I don't shoot those very often if at all.

This is way off the D850 announcement I realize but the conversation has moved more to shifting and the like. 

Below is 3 part horizontal stitch, taken with a GFX and 32-64mm lens @ 32mm my point being the corners on the rotational shifts are as sharp as the centers.   
Note, as usual Flickr has added more sharpening to this image but you can still see my point I believe.

Paul Caldwell

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4357/36373508592_10dfc8c9f9_k.jpg) (http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/XqcJSu)cc 6 finger falls CC pano no1 DSCF1348 6 finger test 4 (https://flic.kr/p/XqcJSu) by paul caldwell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145468296@N05/), on Flickr]
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 13, 2017, 07:31:12 PM
It depends on the projection and angular dimensions of the final image.

With a rectilinear projection, a pixel that's 60 degrees off-axis will need to be stretched to double its dimensions, i.e. four times its area, for a geometrically-correct result. It only gets worse as you go wider.

There's obviously not much to gain (and a lot to lose) from shift-stitching an image with a narrower angle of view. But, for ultra-wide angles of view, that's a huge geometrical disadvantage to overcome. Whether it's doable or not also depends on the edge sharpness of the tilt-shift lens.

Obviously, if you go with a non-rectilinear projection, this doesn't apply.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 14, 2017, 11:04:26 AM
It depends on the projection and angular dimensions of the final image.

With a rectilinear projection, a pixel that's 60 degrees off-axis will need to be stretched to double its dimensions, i.e. four times its area, for a geometrically-correct result. It only gets worse as you go wider.

While true, it's going to look shrunk/correct again when viewed from the proper perspective point. And oversampling is also not that hard to do, it just takes more tiles and a longer focal length (usually already better optically corrected) to achieve, and good Panostitcher resampling quality also solves a lot in case of sub-optimal viewing conditions. One can even stitch high quality upsampled tiles (e.g. produced with Photozoom which increases edge resolution). There are many ways that lead to Rome.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 14, 2017, 11:12:23 AM
Obviously - the Nikon PC-E 24 is well-known to have crap edges. It wouldn't take much to beat it.

Try the same with the PC-E 19 and it will be a different story.

You said:

A shift-stitched panorama from a 24mm tilt-shift is going to have sharper corners than a rotational panorama of the same angle of view taken using a 24mm lens, or even a 35mm lens.

This is a thread about the Nikon D810, so I assumed you meant the Nikon 24 T/S, or possible both the Nikon and Canon ones. Now I think you're saying that you didn't mean the Nikon. Did you perhaps mean only the Canon one? That was certainly not clear.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning the 19 in this context. I have no opinion on whether it's better to spin or slide it.

JIm
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2017, 03:32:21 PM
You said:

This is a thread about the Nikon D810, so I assumed you meant the Nikon 24 T/S, or possible both the Nikon and Canon ones. Now I think you're saying that you didn't mean the Nikon. Did you perhaps mean only the Canon one? That was certainly not clear.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning the 19 in this context. I have no opinion on whether it's better to spin or slide it.

JIm

I was discussing tilt-shifts in general, their availability and quality on Nikon-mount (19mm is good, 24mm is terrible when shifted, 45 and 85mm are equal to their much-older Canon equivalents, which are about to be replaced), and the utility of the shift function in landscape photography (i.e. does it matter that the PC-E 24mm has terrible edges).

This was in the context of discussing a Nikon-Sony hybrid setup, with a 46MP/9fps D850 for action/wildlife and a higher-resolution 60-80MP A9r or A7r3 for nonmoving subjects, using a (mostly) shared set of lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2017, 05:05:40 PM
While true, it's going to look shrunk/correct again when viewed from the proper perspective point. And oversampling is also not that hard to do, it just takes more tiles and a longer focal length (usually already better optically corrected) to achieve, and good Panostitcher resampling quality also solves a lot in case of sub-optimal viewing conditions. One can even stitch high quality upsampled tiles (e.g. produced with Photozoom which increases edge resolution). There are many ways that lead to Rome.

Cheers,
Bart

You can't generate real detail that wasn't there in the first place - that is, it must have been oversampled in the first place.

In order to have the same sensor area contributing to a point 60 degrees off-axis, a rotational panorama would need to be shot with a lens with twice the focal length of a shifted tilt-shift. Any less and there will be more noise in the corner than the shift-stitched image. The focal length needed for equivalent detail is less, since the midfield of a sharp, standard lens is going to be sharper than the shifted edge of a tilt-shift, but still more than that of the tilt-shift lens.

Oversampling is easy enough, but, the more frames you need, the more risk there is of image-destroying flaws. All it takes is a bit of vibration, or a gust of wind rustling leaves and grass to make a single frame blurry, and the entire image becomes useless. This is even more the case when multiple exposures are needed for dynamic range. Happens far too often. If I can capture sufficient resolution using two or three frames (increasing sensor resolution and sharper lenses only make this easier) I'd rather that than needing 6-7 exposures to come out movement-free.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Eric Brody on August 14, 2017, 05:41:31 PM
Shadowblade, no intelligence insult intended, but please remember that so far as I'm aware, there's currently no way to adjust the aperture of any  Nikon E (electronic aperture) lens with any available adapter. So the Nikon Sony hybrid idea will be a non-starter with any Nikon E lens, including the PC-E tilt shift lenses. If you know of a solution, I'd be really happy to hear it. One needs a Nikon body to adjust the aperture, an expensive and bulky solution. (I'd LOVE to be wrong on this, especially for Nikon-Fuji combinations).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 14, 2017, 06:15:48 PM
You can't generate real detail that wasn't there in the first place - that is, it must have been oversampled in the first place.

Fortunately, we can (generate more detail/resolution)! It would take this thread too far off topic to discuss that here, but PhotoZoom Pro does that on edge and line detail (discussed in another thread here on LuLa, I'll see if I can find it). We do not even have to use supersampling techniques.

Quote
In order to have the same sensor area contributing to a point 60 degrees off-axis, a rotational panorama would need to be shot with a lens with twice the focal length of a shifted tilt-shift.

Yes, although a 120-degree FoV in rectilinear projection is 'stretching the limits' of an acceptable perspective under normal viewing conditions. It would take a 10.3 mm lens on a 36 mm wide sensor, image quality would probably leave a lot to be desired at the edges/corners.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2017, 10:56:12 PM
Fortunately, we can (generate more detail/resolution)! It would take this thread too far off topic to discuss that here, but PhotoZoom Pro does that on edge and line detail (discussed in another thread here on LuLa, I'll see if I can find it). We do not even have to use supersampling techniques.

Yes, although a 120-degree FoV in rectilinear projection is 'stretching the limits' of an acceptable perspective under normal viewing conditions. It would take a 10.3 mm lens on a 36 mm wide sensor, image quality would probably leave a lot to be desired at the edges/corners.

Cheers,
Bart

Interesting - real detail using deconvolution techniques, to counter diffraction and motion blur, or fake detail using fractal methods?

You'll reach 120 degrees in the corners of a 12 5mm single shot on full-frame, or in the corners of a shift-stitched image from a 17mm or 19mm tilt-shift. A 24mm tilt-shift with 12mm of shift gets you to 107 degrees - this works out to a 1.68x stretching in each dimension at the corners and would require a 40mm rotational stitch to duplicate with the same sensor area contributing to the corners.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2017, 10:58:28 PM
Shadowblade, no intelligence insult intended, but please remember that so far as I'm aware, there's currently no way to adjust the aperture of any  Nikon E (electronic aperture) lens with any available adapter. So the Nikon Sony hybrid idea will be a non-starter with any Nikon E lens, including the PC-E tilt shift lenses. If you know of a solution, I'd be really happy to hear it. One needs a Nikon body to adjust the aperture, an expensive and bulky solution. (I'd LOVE to be wrong on this, especially for Nikon-Fuji combinations).

At present, anyway. Currently there is no need to buy a Sony if you have Nikon lenses, since the D810 exists.

If Sony releasea a 70MP camera and Nikon is stuck at 46MP, I'd imagine a working adapter will come out within months.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 15, 2017, 01:14:07 AM
At present, anyway. Currently there is no need to buy a Sony if you have Nikon lenses, since the D810 exists.

If Sony releasea a 70MP camera and Nikon is stuck at 46MP, I'd imagine a working adapter will come out within months.

I know you have been writing for months about your concerns regarding the ability of Nikon to source good sensors (not sure what exactly worries you since you apparently don't own any Nikon glass), but facts at this point seem to indicate they are doing pretty well.

Owning today both a 100mp medium format beast and a 36mp D810, I am really not sure that a 70mp Sony would get me excited to the point of buying one... ;)

- For "casual shooting", the 45mp of the D850, being close to 4x5 quality, will enable exhibition grade A1 prints,
- For "serious shooting", I am frankly not sure that the different between 45mp and 70mp will be that super visible in prints. Let's not forget that we are now much closer to the peak resolution of many lenses than we were when Nikon went up from 24mp to 36mp. A move from 45mp to 70mp with the same sensor size is going to be incremental for a majority of applications.

It seems likely that the D850 at 45mp with their brilliant 70-200 f2.8 is probably going to be nearly as good as a 70mp Sony with their average 70-200 f2.8.

I may be getting older, but I am finding it more and more difficult to get excited about sensor resolution in 35mm photography. Similarly, a move from 100mp to 150mp in medium format won't prevent me from sleeping at night. We are deep in nitpicking territory and more than ever before, spherical stitching is the only way to get really significant increases of image quality. And for stitching, 45mp and 70mp are very close to identical.
- I would dare to say that if you use T/S lenses to stitch, the 45mp and 70mp will be 99% identical because both will outdo the actual resolution of T/S lenses when shifted a lot,
- For spherical stitching, you are talking about adding a few frames in a pano, with next to zero practical negative impacts.

This is essential about bragging rights in terms of who owns the highest resolution body... and I don't think that Sony will be the only brand with such sensors. At the price point we can expect the a9r to sell for, they will be small series items and it would be in the best interest of Sony to have these sensors sold to Nikon lens owners also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 15, 2017, 03:40:28 AM
I know you have been writing for months about your concerns regarding the ability of Nikon to source good sensors (not sure what exactly worries you since you apparently don't own any Nikon glass), but facts at this point seem to indicate they are doing pretty well.

Owning today both a 100mp medium format beast and a 36mp D810, I am really not sure that a 70mp Sony would get me excited to the point of buying one... ;)

- For "casual shooting", the 45mp of the D850, being close to 4x5 quality, will enable exhibition grade A1 prints,
- For "serious shooting", I am frankly not sure that the different between 45mp and 70mp will be that super visible in prints. Let's not forget that we are now much closer to the peak resolution of many lenses than we were when Nikon went up from 24mp to 36mp. A move from 45mp to 70mp with the same sensor size is going to be incremental for a majority of applications.

It seems likely that the D850 at 45mp with their brilliant 70-200 f2.8 is probably going to be nearly as good as a 70mp Sony with their average 70-200 f2.8.

I may be getting older, but I am finding it more and more difficult to get excited about sensor resolution in 35mm photography. Similarly, a move from 100mp to 150mp in medium format won't prevent me from sleeping at night. We are deep in nitpicking territory and more than ever before, spherical stitching is the only way to get really significant increases of image quality. And for stitching, 45mp and 70mp are very close to identical.
- I would dare to say that if you use T/S lenses to stitch, the 45mp and 70mp will be 99% identical because both will outdo the actual resolution of T/S lenses when shifted a lot,
- For spherical stitching, you are talking about adding a few frames in a pano, with next to zero practical negative impacts.

This is essential about bragging rights in terms of who owns the highest resolution body... and I don't think that Sony will be the only brand with such sensors. At the price point we can expect the a9r to sell for, they will be small series items and it would be in the best interest of Sony to have these sensors sold to Nikon lens owners also.

Cheers,
Bernard

I own a 14-24, which has been used on several different 5D2s, the A7r and the A7r2. Bought it because the Canon 16-35 II was crap. It works with an adapter, but, obviously, is not an electronic aperture lens.

Obviously, a 70MP sensor will be much more demanding on lenses than a 46MP sensor. You may not be able to get the most out of the sensor with all lenses, due to the sensor outresolving the lens. But that's actually the ideal situation,  particularly in the absence of an AA filter - it reduces the risk of aliasing artifacts. Furthermore, even though you may not gain much spatial resolution due to lens limitations, you will gain colour resolution, while both chroma and luminance noise will be finer-grained (even if the total noise is the same) and less obtrusive in large prints. Finally, many lenses can take advantage of the resolution, at least in the centre - anything that can use a 28MP APS-C sensor can use a 70MP full-frame sensor.

Yes, the Sony 70-200 f/2.8 is crap. On the other hand, a Sony 70MP camera with a 100-400 GM will likely be far better than a Nikon 46MP camera with an 80-400 on it. And both cameras can take a manual-focus Otus.

With regards to tilt-shift lenses, I'd be very interested to see the new TS-E 50mm. It'd basically be the same as a 50mm lens for medium format in terms of image circle, and those are typically sharp right to the edge.

I just hate having my panos ruined by some random vibration or movement in a single frame, which isn't evident until it's loaded in the RAW converter on a large screen...

There was an interview with Sony a few months back (or was it last year?) where they said they would not be making their best sensors available to other manufacturers. Which would certainly be consistent with no-one else using the 42MP sensor (the Pentax was released after it became available, but still used the old 36MP sensor; also, the 42MP sensor doesn't show up on Sony's own list of commercially-available sensors, whereas the 36MP does). Not sure if this only applies to sensors designed and commissioned by Sony itself, though - it certainly suggests that, if Sony came up with a top sensor for its own cameras, they wouldn't share it, but leaves it open as to whether they'd design one for someone else on commission. Certainly, if Nikon or anyone else came up with their own design and asked Sony to make it, I'd imagine they would - if they didn't,  someone else would do it anyway.

At this stage, we don't know if the decision to go with 46MP/9fps was made explicitly to make it an action camera with good cropping potential, or because they couldn't get a higher-resolution sensor (i.e. 'we can't match Canon/Sony's next generation for landscape/studio, but we have the AF system and bandwidth to make it shoot action too, so let's make it the best body out there for that'). It looks like a great camera for wildlife and distant action, but does leave a (relative) hole in Nikon's camera lineup - if anything, it's more in the mould of a D750 successor or super-D750 than a D810 successor. Certainly, many of Nikon's lenses are capable of making use of many more than 46MP. I guess this will be answered by whether they bring out a slow-shooting, ultra-high-resolution body at some stage, although the maximum price of such a body is constrained by the decreasing cost of MF bodies (currently using the Sony 50MP sensor, but there would almost certainly be a higher-resolution sensor in the works for the next generation).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 15, 2017, 04:03:08 AM

There was an interview with Sony a few months back (or was it last year?) where they said they would not be making their best sensors available to other manufacturers. Which would certainly be consistent with no-one else using the 42MP sensor (the Pentax was released after it became available, but still used the old 36MP sensor; also, the 42MP sensor doesn't show up on Sony's own list of commercially-available sensors, whereas the 36MP does). Not sure if this only applies to sensors designed and commissioned by Sony itself, though - it certainly suggests that, if Sony came up with a top sensor for its own cameras, they wouldn't share it, but leaves it open as to whether they'd design one for someone else on commission. Certainly, if Nikon or anyone else came up with their own design and asked Sony to make it, I'd imagine they would - if they didn't,  someone else would do it anyway.

If I remember correctly, that interview had an error and was deleted from the webpage because the author didn't double check with Sony if it was ok to published... it was later republished with an apology from the website owner and the corrections from Sony engineers about their words... if my memory does not fail me.


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 15, 2017, 04:08:25 AM
If I remember correctly, that interview had an error and was deleted from the webpage because the author didn't double check with Sony if it was ok to published... it was later republished with an apology from the website owner and the corrections from Sony engineers about their words... if my memory does not fail me.


http://dgpfotografia.com

Here it is the infamous interview... after the first question there is a long explanation about what it really meant Sony
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/17/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 15, 2017, 10:14:13 AM

Obviously, a 70MP sensor will be much more demanding on lenses than a 46MP sensor.

Much more? That's 23% greater resolution. My results with top FF lenses indicate that, on-axis,  the lens is not the most important factor until well over 200 MP.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on August 15, 2017, 01:47:33 PM
Here it is the infamous interview... after the first question there is a long explanation about what it really meant Sony
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/17/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable
Thanks. The extensive added explanation makes it clear that the statement is simply about the fact that in some cases, Sony camera designers work with Sony sensor designers to customize sensor designs, and these "bespoke" sensor designs are for use only in Sony cameras. In this context, I note that over the years, Nikon's camera designers have similarly worked with Sony sensor designers, providing some Nikon-developed sensor design ideas for sensors used exclusively in Nikon cameras.

In fact, it also seems that some Sony sensors are exclusively for Olympus M43 cameras. I mention this just to emphasize that Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation offers both bespoke and prét-a-porter sensors.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on August 15, 2017, 02:00:01 PM
Much more? That's 23% greater resolution. By results with top FF lenses indicate that, on-axis,  the lens is not the most important factor until well over 200 MP.

Jim
Yes, it is worth noting that—once the market-speak of pixel counts is put aside—over the last fifteen years, there has been only a doubling of resolution (l/mm) in digital ILC's: 4/3" has gone from 5MP in 2003 to 20MP; "APS-C" has gone from 6MP in 2002 to 24MP, and 36x24mm format has gone from 11MP (Canon) and 13.5MP (Kodak) in 2002 to 42MP (Sony) and 51MP (Canon).

And at least some lenses from back then are still performing fine at the doubled resolution.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 15, 2017, 02:40:00 PM
Thanks. The extensive added explanation makes it clear that the statement is simply about the fact that in some cases, Sony camera designers work with Sony sensor designers to customize sensor designs, and these "bespoke" sensor designs are for use only in Sony cameras. In this context, I note that over the years, Nikon's camera designers have similarly worked with Sony sensor designers, providing some Nikon-developed sensor design ideas for sensors used exclusively in Nikon cameras.

In fact, it also seems that some Sony sensors are exclusively for Olympus M43 cameras. I mention this just to emphasize that Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation offers both bespoke and prét-a-porter sensors.

Yes, not sure if it is the same in other sensor sizes but you can see this behaviour in MF market.  Phase ONE usually puts a lot of effort developing some CMOS sensors with Sony, Phase ONE released the sensor, other manufacturers have to wait around 6 months to be able to release a product with it. This was the case for the first CMOS 50mpx sensor (the one now used by everybody in the MF market) and the 100 MPx sensor (now also used by Hasselblad). I think that some interview of Kevin with the Phase ONE CEO, the Phase ONE CEO mentioned that fact for the 100 MPx sensor... I suppose you have the exclusivity depending on how much you are willing to pay.

P.D.: A roadmap of Sony sensors for MF was released by Sony... maybe from now on, with some many players, there is not much exclusivity for new sensors for all MF manufacturers.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 15, 2017, 03:23:05 PM
Much more? That's 23% greater resolution. My results with top FF lenses indicate that, on-axis,  the lens is not the most important factor until well over 200 MP.

Jim

23% is quite significant. It means that, in the space where the lens would have had to resolve 100 lines, it now has to resolve 123.

Not a problem in the centre of most sharp lenses, but definitely a consideration in the corners, particularly on wide lenses.

EDIT: Just noticed that you said 'on-axis'. That's the issue here. What you need depends on what you shoot (it's also why one-number sharpness scores are worse than useless). I primarily shoot landscapes/cityscapes, so corner sharpness is the most relevant number (since I need corner-to-corner sharpness and it represents the weakest part of the field and, thus, the minimum sharpness I can expect across the frame - this is why I rate the Nikon 24-70 VR above the 24-70 non-VR, despite the latter's better central sharpness). Particularly corner sharpness in the f/5.6-f/8 range, at infinity focus distance.  A wildlife photographer, whose corners will be out of focus anyway, cares primarily about central sharpness for fur and feather detail. Someone buying a 500mm lens to be used most of the time with a 1.4x TC isn't going to care about the outer third of the image circle. For these people, sensor performance is unlikely to be limited by lens performance for a long time. But a limitation which doesn't apply to the centre, and doesn't impact wildlife/people photographers, is much more challenging at the corners, where it is applicable to landscape and architectural photographers, and also things like art reproduction.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 15, 2017, 03:24:13 PM
Much more? That's 23% greater resolution. My results with top FF lenses indicate that, on-axis,  the lens is not the most important factor until well over 200 MP.
Jim
I measured with my humble nikon1 J5 that 150 Mp in the central area is possible for the better lenses at their best aperture.
However, off-axis we already see problems at 36MP especially with wide angles. That is why the Otus 28mm is such a good lens.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 15, 2017, 05:19:40 PM
Thanks. The extensive added explanation makes it clear that the statement is simply about the fact that in some cases, Sony camera designers work with Sony sensor designers to customize sensor designs, and these "bespoke" sensor designs are for use only in Sony cameras. In this context, I note that over the years, Nikon's camera designers have similarly worked with Sony sensor designers, providing some Nikon-developed sensor design ideas for sensors used exclusively in Nikon cameras.

In fact, it also seems that some Sony sensors are exclusively for Olympus M43 cameras. I mention this just to emphasize that Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation offers both bespoke and prét-a-porter sensors.

Do they, though?

I note that the 36MP sensor is listed with the sensors open to commercial buyers at Sony's website, whereas the (newer, and presumably Sony-commissioned) 42MP is not. The 42MP also uses certain technologies - BSI, and far better performance at high ISO - that the 36MP does not.

Given that they are part of the same group of companies, with the same overall management at the top level, there will be a far greater level of integration possible between Sony's camera designers and their sensor designers than for any other company working with Sony imaging. More a case of 'This is what we need - how can we do it, and what technology do we need to develop and what fab processes do we need to have in order to do it?' rather than 'Sorry, the technology doesn't exist/our fab plant can't do it yet.' Certainly, BSI technology opens up a lot of possibilities for improving performance, particularly at low ISOs, by putting more capability behind each pixel rather than being limited by the amount of spare room at the front, between the photosites.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 16, 2017, 12:47:23 AM
Do they, though?

I note that the 36MP sensor is listed with the sensors open to commercial buyers at Sony's website, whereas the (newer, and presumably Sony-commissioned) 42MP is not. The 42MP also uses certain technologies - BSI, and far better performance at high ISO - that the 36MP does not.

Given that they are part of the same group of companies, with the same overall management at the top level, there will be a far greater level of integration possible between Sony's camera designers and their sensor designers than for any other company working with Sony imaging. More a case of 'This is what we need - how can we do it, and what technology do we need to develop and what fab processes do we need to have in order to do it?' rather than 'Sorry, the technology doesn't exist/our fab plant can't do it yet.' Certainly, BSI technology opens up a lot of possibilities for improving performance, particularly at low ISOs, by putting more capability behind each pixel rather than being limited by the amount of spare room at the front, between the photosites.

I think we already talked about this in the past and we didn't agree at the end :), but here we go again...

Take a look for example to mobile phone sensors, what really gives Sony their big bucks in sensor business... where all those technologies like BSI or stacked sensor of the A9 was first developed... Sony was selling their best sensors to Apple or Samsung (yes, they use Sony sensors in their flagship phones instead of their own)... even though they also make their own mobile phones (well, not that they're to successful in this business).

About BSI, I remember an interview with some Sony representative when the A7r II was released about why they aren't using it in sensors with lower resolution on FF... their response was that it was more complicated to produce and for bigger pixel size the benefits where minimal... for example, A9 does not uses BSI sensor...

Anyway... as I was saying... we can agree to disagree in this regard ;)


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 17, 2017, 11:31:05 PM
Looking at the D850's specs for wildlife/action photography, it looks like Nikon has left a gap which Canon and/or Sony could potentially exploit.

The D850 can manage 46MP at 9fps, but only with a grip. Without the grip, it's down to 7fps - marginal for a primary action body, although still more than usable.

What exactly does the grip provide? More power? Unlikely that it provides an extra processor or anything else that contributes to the frame rate. Is the battery so weak, or the camera so power-intensive, that it cannot run at 9fps on a single battery, for whatever length of time? Or is this just an artificial limitation on Nikon's part to force people to buy the grip, controlling the spread of third-party grips but driving away potential users who simply can't stand gripped bodies (too big, too heavy in hand or just unnecessary weight in a travel kit)?

The A9 has enough bandwidth to run 24MP at 20fps. That's 48MP at 10fps, in a volume and weight of a non-gripped camera, while running a power-intensive EVF. There's no reason to think Canon can't achieve the same sort of bandwidth, and thus resolution/frame rate, in an ungripped 5Ds2 or 5D5 either.

Certainly, a gripped D850 would be a very good wildlife camera (and the best one we know exists at the moment). But could this requirement to use a grip work against it when considering different options for a two-camera system, should Sony or Canon release something with similar resolution/frame rate that can achieve that performance ungripped?

Also, I'd be interested to see thr PDR-vs-ISO measurements of this camera. The choice of an ISO 64 base seems interesting,  given that, unlike the D810, the D850 is as much an action body as anything else. It can't sacrifice high-ISO performance for minor benefits at base ISO - it needs to perform at ISO 1600-6400, not lag two-thirds of a stop behind its contemporaries. I'd be looking to see if it does, in fact, achieve a better DR at ISO 64 while keeping up at high ISO, or if it merely shifts the curve half a stop leftward (like the D810). If it's the latter, it would seem as if the designers couldn't make up their mind - is it an action camera that shoots and focuses quickly and performs at mid-high ISOs, or is it a resolution camera designed for ultimate low-ISO performance? 9fps and a compromised ISO 1600-6400 wouldn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 17, 2017, 11:57:38 PM
Looking at the D850's specs for wildlife/action photography, it looks like Nikon has left a gap which Canon and/or Sony could potentially exploit.

The D850 can manage 46MP at 9fps, but only with a grip. Without the grip, it's down to 7fps - marginal for a primary action body, although still more than usable.

What exactly does the grip provide? More power? Unlikely that it provides an extra processor or anything else that contributes to the frame rate. Is the battery so weak, or the camera so power-intensive, that it cannot run at 9fps on a single battery, for whatever length of time? Or is this just an artificial limitation on Nikon's part to force people to buy the grip, controlling the spread of third-party grips but driving away potential users who simply can't stand gripped bodies (too big, too heavy in hand or just unnecessary weight in a travel kit)?

The A9 has enough bandwidth to run 24MP at 20fps. That's 48MP at 10fps, in a volume and weight of a non-gripped camera, while running a power-intensive EVF. There's no reason to think Canon can't achieve the same sort of bandwidth, and thus resolution/frame rate, in an ungripped 5Ds2 or 5D5 either.

Certainly, a gripped D850 would be a very good wildlife camera (and the best one we know exists at the moment). But could this requirement to use a grip work against it when considering different options for a two-camera system, should Sony or Canon release something with similar resolution/frame rate that can achieve that performance ungripped?

Also, I'd be interested to see thr PDR-vs-ISO measurements of this camera. The choice of an ISO 64 base seems interesting,  given that, unlike the D810, the D850 is as much an action body as anything else. It can't sacrifice high-ISO performance for minor benefits at base ISO - it needs to perform at ISO 1600-6400, not lag two-thirds of a stop behind its contemporaries. I'd be looking to see if it does, in fact, achieve a better DR at ISO 64 while keeping up at high ISO, or if it merely shifts the curve half a stop leftward (like the D810). If it's the latter, it would seem as if the designers couldn't make up their mind - is it an action camera that shoots and focuses quickly and performs at mid-high ISOs, or is it a resolution camera designed for ultimate low-ISO performance? 9fps and a compromised ISO 1600-6400 wouldn't make much sense.

My thoughts exactly. Personally, I don't care about high ISO, since I never use it. However, I do care about an authentic low ISO, like the ISO 64 that the Nikon D810 has. If the D850 has the same ISO 64 as the D810 (or better), I will be very happy. However, if the ISO 64 is some kind of extended ISO (or whatever the right words are), I will be very disappointed and look again at the mirrorless MF cameras or hope Sony will deliver a larger landscape/macro camera.  I have so many fine and useful lenses in Nikon F-mount format that a proper ISO 54 D810 would satisfy me until Nikon perhaps comes out with a high-resolution mirrorless body that takes all the old lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2017, 09:13:14 AM
My thoughts exactly. Personally, I don't care about high ISO, since I never use it. However, I do care about an authentic low ISO, like the ISO 64 that the Nikon D810 has. If the D850 has the same ISO 64 as the D810 (or better), I will be very happy. However, if the ISO 64 is some kind of extended ISO (or whatever the right words are), I will be very disappointed and look again at the mirrorless MF cameras or hope Sony will deliver a larger landscape/macro camera.  I have so many fine and useful lenses in Nikon F-mount format that a proper ISO 54 D810 would satisfy me until Nikon perhaps comes out with a high-resolution mirrorless body that takes all the old lenses.

This may be a case of trying to chase two targets at once.

The D850 is an action camera. It can shoot 9fps and has the D5 AF system. With its full-frame sensor and high pixel density for cropping, it will likely be the best wildlife and field sports camera out there. It needs to perform in the ISO 1600-6400 range, not be two-thirds of a stop behind the leaders like the D810. The D810 can get away with it because it doesn't even pretend to be an action camera. The D850 can't.

At the same time, anyone using it as a D810 successor, or as Nikon's top resolution/IQ body, will expect top-quality low-ISO performance. The D810 delivers no more DR at ISO 64 than the D800e or A7r deliver at ISO 100, although the images may be slightly cleaner. In other words, it essentially sacrificed 2/3 of a stop of ISO performance at all ISOs to deliver this - something the D850, as an action camera as well as a high-resolution camera, can't afford to do.

I wonder if they've managed to find a compromise that delivers high ISO performance equal to other action cameras while maintaining (if not exceeding) the D810's low-ISO performance,  or if they've had to sacrifice one end for the other? If they had to sacrifice one end, it would make more sense to sacrifice the lower end (below ISO 100) - the 46MP camera won't be the highest-resolution camera out there, but could well be the best action/wildlife body. Better to optimise it to make it truly excel at its strength (while being more than competent for non-action work) than to make something that's half-optimised for both (fps/resolution and AF for action, but DR and ISO performance for non-action)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 18, 2017, 09:38:02 AM
This may be a case of trying to chase two targets at once.

The D850 is an action camera. It can shoot 9fps and has the D5 AF system. With its full-frame sensor and high pixel density for cropping, it will likely be the best wildlife and field sports camera out there. It needs to perform in the ISO 1600-6400 range, not be two-thirds of a stop behind the leaders like the D810. The D810 can get away with it because it doesn't even pretend to be an action camera. The D850 can't.

At the same time, anyone using it as a D810 successor, or as Nikon's top resolution/IQ body, will expect top-quality low-ISO performance. The D810 delivers no more DR at ISO 64 than the D800e or A7r deliver at ISO 100, although the images may be slightly cleaner. In other words, it essentially sacrificed 2/3 of a stop of ISO performance at all ISOs to deliver this - something the D850, as an action camera as well as a high-resolution camera, can't afford to do.

I wonder if they've managed to find a compromise that delivers high ISO performance equal to other action cameras while maintaining (if not exceeding) the D810's low-ISO performance,  or if they've had to sacrifice one end for the other? If they had to sacrifice one end, it would make more sense to sacrifice the lower end (below ISO 100) - the 46MP camera won't be the highest-resolution camera out there, but could well be the best action/wildlife body. Better to optimise it to make it truly excel at its strength (while being more than competent for non-action work) than to make something that's half-optimised for both (fps/resolution and AF for action, but DR and ISO performance for non-action)

I understand your view, but I need the low ISO, not an action camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 18, 2017, 09:43:10 AM
I wonder if they've managed to find a compromise that delivers high ISO performance equal to other action cameras while maintaining (if not exceeding) the D810's low-ISO performance,  or if they've had to sacrifice one end for the other?

There is a way around this: DR-Pix, or something like it that doesn't fit all ISOs to the Procrustean Bed of one conversion gain. But Nikon has ignored that technology so far.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2017, 09:57:21 AM
I understand your view, but I need the low ISO, not an action camera.

I'm not arguing about need, but what they are likely to do.

I need an ultra-high resolution sensor with great DR at low ISO, for landscapes.

I also need a body with top-tier AF for tracking action, with a fast enough frame rate for wildlife, a high enough resolution for cropping and good performance in the ISO 400-6400 range.

Ideally, they'd be one and the same camera - something that excels both at low ISO and at high ISO.

But the D850 appears to lean towards the second type of camera. It has a decent resolution, good enough for cropping wildlife/action, but won't win the resolution stakes against either Canon or Sony. It also has the frame rate and AF systems for action. So it would make sense to optimise the sensor for mid-ISO action photography and play to its strengths, rather than make it a low-ISO sensor to try to turn the camera into something that it's not. If the low-ISO optimisation can be done without impacting on mid-ISO DR, then go for it, but it wouldn't make sense to sacrifice mid-ISO performance in a body that could be the best general action body out there to make it slightly better at something it's unlikely to be the best at, anyway. That goes double if Nikon intend to bring out a higher-resolution body in the next one to two years anyway, as a dedicated studio/landscape body.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2017, 10:08:02 AM
There is a way around this: DR-Pix, or something like it that doesn't fit all ISOs to the Procrustean Bed of one conversion gain. But Nikon has ignored that technology so far.

Jim

It may be an issue of mass fabrication rather than design.

Certainly, multilayer circuitry, BSI technology and the general shrinkage of architecture make it a much more realistic technology to implement now than five years ago.

But there may also be an issue with patents.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 18, 2017, 10:20:48 AM
My point is that if it does not have the ISO, which made the D810 famous, then it is not an upgrade for that camera, at least for me. End of story.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 18, 2017, 10:24:53 AM
But the D850 appears to lean towards the second type of camera. It has a decent resolution, good enough for cropping wildlife/action, but won't win the resolution stakes against either Canon or Sony.

Right... 45mp is "decent resolution"... ;)

This is 4x5 level with the right lenses, by most standards it is super high resolution.

70mp will not be that different.

If you really need more, only spherical stitching will help.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 18, 2017, 10:35:03 AM
It may be an issue of mass fabrication rather than design.

Certainly, multilayer circuitry, BSI technology and the general shrinkage of architecture make it a much more realistic technology to implement now than five years ago.

But there may also be an issue with patents.

It requires a license from the successor company to Aptina, where it was invented. Sony has implemented it in non-BSI (and BSI) sensors and achieved excellent results.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 18, 2017, 10:40:38 AM
I hope that the d850 can prove OVF is still alive.
It seems they put a real nice prisma in the d850.
If it can shoot without noise, uses evf in a proper way and has a nice detailed LCD screen than you have the best off both worlds.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2017, 10:43:40 AM
It requires a license from the successor company to Aptina, where it was invented. Sony has implemented it in non-BSI (and BSI) sensors and achieved excellent results.

Jim

I knew Sony had implemented something similar - didn't know they had licensed it from Aptina rather than developing their own similar thing. I believe one method involves using an additional, 'add-on' capacitor, while another involves using two (or more) sets of ADCs, for different ISO settings.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 18, 2017, 10:50:43 AM
I knew Sony had implemented something similar - didn't know they had licensed it from Aptina rather than developing their own similar thing. I believe one method involves using an additional, 'add-on' capacitor, while another involves using two (or more) sets of ADCs, for different ISO settings.

Sony uses the Aptina technology. That's the one with the add-on cap that's switched in at low-ISOs to raise the FWC and lower the conversion gain. That improves the high-ISO SNR more effectively than changing ADCs, since the change in gain occurs ahead of the source follower, some switching, and the PGA.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2017, 11:07:07 AM
Right... 45mp is "decent resolution"... ;)

This is 4x5 level with the right lenses, by most standards it is super high resolution.

70mp will not be that different.

If you really need more, only spherical stitching will help.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's all relative to the competition.

If Canon and Sony both bring out 60MP sensors with similar DR, then 46MP is not particularly high-resolution. A studio/landscape/commercial/reproduction/architecture/other non-action photographer can make use of every extra pixel.

The 5Ds is already 50MP, and Canon's hardly going to go backwards resolution-wise in the next iteration.

There's also opportunity cost. Some things are an either/or deal - you can't have both.

The D850's combination of resolution, frame rate and AF would make it an ideal action camera. But, to be an ideal action camera, it needs to match up to the best-in-class sensors in the typical action working range, from ISO 400-6400. If it can't do that, then it detracts from its ability to perform as an action camera.

The D810 sacrificed high-ISO performance for low-ISO performance. It has similar DR at ISO 64 to the A7r at ISO 100, similar DR at ISO 500 to the A7r/D800e at ISO 800, similar DR at ISO 2000 to the A7r/D800e at ISO 3200, and so on - always around half to two-thirds of a stop behind. It could do that because it was never expected to perform as an action camera - there was no opportunity cost there.

That's not the case for the D850. It's expected to perform as an action body. It can't sacrifice half a stop of performance at typical action ISOs in order to be slightly better at ISO 64. If it does, it will be sub-par as an action body, while being an oddball for a non-action camera, with high low-ISO DR but a fast frame rate, action-oriented AF system and resolution likely below what the competition will offer.

It remains to be seen if it manages to achieve both, maintaining low-ISO image quality without sacrificing high-ISO performance. It'd be a win if it manages to retain the D810's DR at low ISO (with an additional 10MP to boot; whether it achieves this 11.6 stops of PDR at ISO 64 only, or if it achieves it at ISO 100 and retains it at ISO 64 doesn't particularly matter) while matching the D5/A7r2/A9's dynamic range at ISO 1600-6400. But it can't afford to fall behind the pure action bodies at ISO 1600-6400, nor can it afford to underperform the D810 DR-wise at low ISO, which is why the sensor design and choice for the D850 is a much tougher decision and much tougher technical challenge than the sensor for the D810 (or the D5, for that matter) - it has to do more than one thing, and both of them well.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 19, 2017, 02:44:02 AM
It's all relative to the competition.

If Canon and Sony both bring out 60MP sensors with similar DR, then 46MP is not particularly high-resolution. A studio/landscape/commercial/reproduction/architecture/other non-action photographer can make use of every extra pixel.

Sure.

Could you please explain once again why you are using this tremendous amount of energy to write about a camera that obviously is far from fitting your needs? ;)

Are you trying to show us, likely D850 buyers, the right path ahead?

As D810 owners, the value is pretty obvious and most available facts point that this is going to be the best available DSLR at release, replacing the D810 in this role.

Are better cameras going to be released moving forward? Most certainly so. But as far as I know, none of them will be able to focus my large collection of brilliant Nikon lenses as well as the D850 will (and none may be able to focus their native lenses as well either by the way).

As far as I am concerned, I may purchase a Sony a9r, that would be a great way to tip my toes into the mirrorless world. Would I keep it if Nikon released a DSLR with similar resolution? Probably not but who knows. ;)

We can speculate all we want in our imaginary world, the reality is that we end up speaking a lot about our own context and needs and share little usable input for others. I did waste a lot of time doing that in good faith in the past, I never got much out of it really.  8)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 19, 2017, 03:45:33 AM
Does anyone know a date for the "D850"?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 19, 2017, 04:30:38 AM
Sure.

Could you please explain once again why you are using this tremendous amount of energy to write about a camera that obviously is far from fitting your needs? ;)

Are you trying to show us, likely D850 buyers, the right path ahead?

As D810 owners, the value is pretty obvious and most available facts point that this is going to be the best available DSLR at release, replacing the D810 in this role.

Are better cameras going to be released moving forward? Most certainly so. But as far as I know, none of them will be able to focus my large collection of brilliant Nikon lenses as well as the D850 will (and none may be able to focus their native lenses as well either by the way).

As far as I am concerned, I may purchase a Sony a9r, that would be a great way to tip my toes into the mirrorless world. Would I keep it if Nikon released a DSLR with similar resolution? Probably not but who knows. ;)

We can speculate all we want in our imaginary world, the reality is that we end up speaking a lot about our own context and needs and share little usable input for others. I did waste a lot of time doing that in good faith in the past, I never got much out of it really.  8)

Cheers,
Bernard

The D850 does suit one of my needs - that of the high-resolution action camera suitable for shooting wildlife and cropping if needed. The combination of resolution, frame rate  better than anything else out there for it.

But it won't be the best low-ISO, high-resolution full-frame body out there. Its resolution deficit compared to Canon/Sony will see to that. It will be competent, and likely better than the D810 for that, but there will be better options for those only concerned with low-ISO performance with no regard for action use.

That may well be another Nikon system,  if they can come up with an ultra-high-resolution camera more suited to that role. But it won't be the D850. Nor should it - better to have a camera that's fully optimised for one thing without compromises, while being competent at the other, than being half-optimised for both while being the best at neither. Let the D850 be the king of wildlife/action, without compromising its mid-ISO performance for slightly better ISO 64, and let another body with higher resolution be the low-ISO body.

Or are you so wedded to the D850 being the D810 replacement for base ISO use that you can't see that it may be best suited to a completely different role, with the low-ISO crown being taken by another Nikon camera with a different name and specs better suited to the role? Maybe even D850 with 46MP/9fps and D850x with 70MP/5fps, as a pair of bodies which can handle every situation and cover each other competently as a backup camera should the need arise.

No interest in convincing anyone. But it's interesting how rusted-on fanboys take it so personally that one camera of their favoured system isn't going to be the best at everything - the best low-ISO high-resolution body as well as the best action body. It's not like I'm expecting to be shooting cheetahs at 10fps with a Sony 70MP system.

Action and non-action are best covered by a pair of cameras, each specialised in a role but able to cover for the other if needed, rather than a 'do everything' body which does an OK job of everything but excels in neither. Aside from the ISO performance, which is currently unknown, the D850 appears to be the action rather than non-action camera of the pair. So let it do that role as well as it can, and hope for an even higher resolution non-action body, rather than hoping for a low-ISO sensor that takes away from its ability as an action camera while still leaving it a few megapixels short of being an ideal non-action body.

As for its role as a general-purpose, photojournalistic 5D4-style body, it would make more sense to put in a sensor able to keep up at ISO 3200 than one which sacrifices that for even better base-ISO performance. After all, you buy a general-purpose camera to be able to shoot everything competently with one body, not to sgoot at base ISO while sacrificing action capability.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 19, 2017, 04:31:06 AM
Does anyone know a date for the "D850"?

August 24 announcement.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 19, 2017, 06:46:37 AM
Well... how could anyone in his right mind form an opinion about the suitability of the D850 for a particular role when nothing factual is known about it?

The only element we have telling us the D850 won't be a great base ISO camera... is the theory you have constructed...

So being called a fanboy for not adhering to your guess is... amusing. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 19, 2017, 08:26:34 AM
Well... how could anyone in his right mind form an opinion about the suitability of the D850 for a particular role when nothing factual is known about it?

The only element we have telling us the D850 won't be a great base ISO camera... is the theory you have constructed...

So being called a fanboy for not adhering to your guess is... amusing. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not saying it won't be - I have no idea what Nikon is going to do, any more than you do. I'm saying it shouldn't be its main focus.

You're starting from the position of 'the D850 is a low-ISO, high-resolution camera' and everything is a bonus and extrapolating that to mean that the sensor needs to be a low-ISO-optimised sensor. And you're obviously projecting your own desire for a low-ISO, high-DR specialist camera onto it with the false belief that this must be the camera designed for that. But nothing in the known specs list suggests that it's designed as a low-ISO non-action camera. The only reason anyone would even think that is the D8xx name. But look at the specs - 9fps, D5 AF system - and there's nothing there to suggest it's designed as one.

The D850 is an action camera. It has the AF system of one and shoots at 9fps. That's as fast as the D3 managed. As an action camera, it will be expected to perform well at typical sports/wildlife ISOs - 400-6400. Not half a stop behind the leaders, but just as well as the leaders. It doesn't have to beat the D5 or A9 at ISO 3200, but needs to at least match them. If it can improve on the D810's low-ISO performance while doing so, it's a bonus, but hardly a must.

Doing otherwise would be like putting a low-ISO sensor into the D5 that's great at ISO 50, but noisy above ISO 1600. Or making an A7r2 sensor that's great at ISO 25600, but had a curve that flattened out at low ISO, 5D3-style.

Think about it - what if it hadn't been called the D850? What if they'd called it the D900 and announced it with the same 9fps, D5 AF and 46MP? Does that sound like a low-ISO, high-DR, high-resolution studio camera to you? Of course not - it sounds like a general action camera, a super-D750 or super-5D4 rather than a D810 successor. It's not inconceivable that the D850 is a completely different kind of camera while sharing the D8xx name - after all, the 5D3 and 5D2 both shared the '5D' tag, but could hardly be more different in actual use.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 19, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
Euh... not sure where you secured that intimate understanding about what I think and what I desire. ;)

My view is the following:
- The D850 will be the medium FX camera in Nikon line up
- There is going to be a D900 or a D5x with a higher level of resolution to compete with the a9r/5Ds Mk II
- We have no clue today how the D850 will be performing at low ISO, but we know that it is going to have a native ISO64 and that Nikon claimed that it would have better dynamic range.

From these elements, I find it reasonable to think that the D850 will have an excellent level of DR at low ISO, or at least I don't find anything telling me it won't.

I use my H6D-100c camera/back and I stitch when I need the best possible low ISO image quality. I frankly don't need the D850 to be excellent at low ISO, but I think there is a very good chance it will.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 19, 2017, 08:52:33 AM

My view is the following:
- The D850 will be the medium FX camera in Nikon line up
- There is going to be a D900 or a D5x with a higher level of resolution to compete with the a9r/5Ds Mk II
- We have no clue today how the D850 will be performing at low ISO, but we know that it is going to have a native ISO64 and that Nikon claimed that it would have better dynamic range.

From these elements, I find it reasonable to think that the D850 will have an excellent level of DR at low ISO, or at least I don't find anything telling me it won't.

Cheers,
Bernard

What he said...I agree (and hope!).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 19, 2017, 11:18:59 AM
My view is the following:
- The D850 will be the medium FX camera in Nikon line up

Certainly it will function as a 'balanced'-type body (like the 5D4), with the AF and FPS necessary to shoot fast action, but also the resolution to do a good job of non-action work. The combination also happens to make it ideal for long-distance action, where cropability is important (more important than 15fps vs 9fps).

Whether it will actually be the 'medium' body in Nikon's top-level lineup (with the D5 as the 'fast and low-res' and something else as the 'slow and hi-res') depends on whether Nikon actually has a high-resolution sensor available. It's not impossible that Nikon only has a 'fast' and 'medium' body available, with no 'slow' body for lack of a suitable sensor. Canon was in the same position a few years ago, with the 1D4 or 1Dx as the 'fast' and the 5D3 as the 'medium', but no 'slow' body to replace the 5D2/1Ds3 as the high-resolution camera. This contributed heavily towards Sony's success with the A7r and drew more than a few Canon shooters to the D800/D800e.

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- There is going to be a D900 or a D5x with a higher level of resolution to compete with the a9r/5Ds Mk II

If Nikon has a suitable sensor available, a D850x is more likely than a D900 or D5x. And, if Sony were to launch both a 'medium' and a 'slow' body (with the A9 being the 'fast'), it would actually make more sense for the 'slow' to be the A7r3 rather than the A9r.

A 'medium' body needs to be designed for fast action - in fact, it needs to handle it just as well as the 'fast', apart from an emphasis on having sufficient resolution over having the ultimate frame rate. A 'slow' body doesn't need to shoot action at all - it's nice to have the AF for it, but not strictly essential, and it certainly won't be shooting at a fast burst rate. So, if it had to be one or the other, it would actually make more sense to put the high-resolution sensor into an A7r3 (with all the other top-level features, e.g. dual cards, build quality, etc., but without having to compromise or complicate the sensor to add better on-sensor AF) while putting a 50MP-or-so sensor into an A9r, giving it a 10fps burst rate and making it the 'medium'.

For the same reason, it would make much more sense for Nikon's 'slow' to be a D850x than a D900 or D5x. A 'slow' doesn't need the speed- or action-related features of a D5 body, and driving up the cost to add features that aren't useful to most 'slow' shooters would only cost sales, particularly if Sony releases an A7r3 'slow' which offers the same studio/landscape-relevant capabilities (resolution and DR, not necessarily the ability to track hummingbirds with a 'slow' camera) at a lower price point. Making a D900, offsetting the 'slow'-ness of the sensor with even greater bandwidth (e.g. 7fps instead of 5, and faster AF) really just turns it into an even higher-tier 'medium' - at that point, it wouldn't really be competing against Canon's and Sony's 'slows', but against the D850 itself (e.g. 46MP and 9fps at $3.5k, vs 70MP and 7fps at $6k).

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- We have no clue today how the D850 will be performing at low ISO, but we know that it is going to have a native ISO64 and that Nikon claimed that it would have better dynamic range.

From these elements, I find it reasonable to think that the D850 will have an excellent level of DR at low ISO, or at least I don't find anything telling me it won't.

They said it would have 'better dynamic range', but they never said it would have better dynamic range at ISO 64. More likely, this 'better dynamic range' is at higher ISOs rather than base.

The weak point of the D810 sensor isn't base ISO DR. It's DR at mid-high ISOs - 1600-6400. Which is the ISO range that the D850 needs to be good in to take advantage of the improved frame rate and AF and function as an action body. So, the most logical explanation would be that low-ISO DR is the same as the D810, but the mid-high ISO DR is a lot better - a bit like the improvements from the A7r to A7r2. In that case, what Nikon said would still be completely true - the camera would have better DR. Just at this 'better DR' would be at higher ISO - the base-ISO DR would be similar to that of the D810 (while still managing to increase the pixel count).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2017, 04:16:19 AM
Could you develop your thoughts a bit more?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: MoreOrLess on August 21, 2017, 07:24:10 AM
Personally I think a D900/D5x is unlikely given the D850 specs were hearing about, it very much seems like a camera were Nikon have thrown in everything they could in order to counter the downturn in the market and potential conception from mirrorless. Didn't Nikon themselves say they were looking at reducing the number of DSLR lines they offer? I wouldn't be supprised if the D610 isn't replaced and the D750 successor ends up being the budget body, perhaps with a an F-mount mirrorless FF body as an even cheaper one?

As far as the 5DR goes I think 45 MP is more than enough to hang with that, even if the base DR were to come down slightly it would still likely have a significant edge over the Canon whilst outgunning it greatly in FPS, AF, 4K, etc.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 21, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
Personally I think a D900/D5x is unlikely given the D850 specs were hearing about, it very much seems like a camera were Nikon have thrown in everything they could in order to counter the downturn in the market and potential conception from mirrorless. Didn't Nikon themselves say they were looking at reducing the number of DSLR lines they offer? I wouldn't be supprised if the D610 isn't replaced and the D750 successor ends up being the budget body, perhaps with a an F-mount mirrorless FF body as an even cheaper one?

As far as the 5DR goes I think 45 MP is more than enough to hang with that, even if the base DR were to come down slightly it would still likely have a significant edge over the Canon whilst outgunning it greatly in FPS, AF, 4K, etc.

It won't be competing against the 5Ds, though. It will need to compete against Canon and Sony's next-generation models - likely 5Ds2, 5D5 and A9r and/or A7r3. In the high-resolution role, it'll be up against 60-70MP, not 50MP.

Looking at the D850, it's pretty much a 5D4 that's been made bigger and better in every way - better AF, higher resolution, faster frame rate - or a beefed-up D750. It's not a Nikon-branded 5Ds, nor is it an updated D810. It's a general-purpose body with a nod towards action (D5 AF and 9fps), not a resolution/IQ specialist (although it outclasses every existing Nikon body in this). This suggests room for a high-resolution specialist alongside it, a bit like how the 5Ds exists alongside the 5D3/5D4.

If the D850 had 45MP and only 5fps, I'd be much more inclined to see it as the 'resolution' model, since, in that case, it would clearly not be an action body, and slow even for a general-purpose one. It would look more like Nikon's best attempt at a high-resolution body, with no compromises made to achieve a decent frame rate. But, with 9fps and a D5 action body, even with 46MP, it looks like they held back on the resolution in order to achieve greater frame rate for the same bandwidth. It may be that this decision was forced onto them, if a higher-resolution sensor wasn't available. Or it may be that a slower, higher-resolution body is planned at some stage.

As it stands, it outclasses the 5D4 in every respect and will likely cannibalise the D5 (since 46MP and 9fps is far more useful than 20MP and 1104fps with the same AF system for a lot of roles, particularly anything involving long telephotos). Just about the only thing the 5D4 has to compete on is cost, and likely not by a huge amount (the 5D4's launch price was USD3499). It will likely put up a huge challenge for the 5D5 even if Canon releases it two years from now - going from 30MP to 46MP, with a step up in both AF and fps, in a new camera, against the price of an 18-24-month-old D850 will be a tough ask. It even leaves room for a 30-36MP, 7fps D760 to replace the D750 and undercut the 5D4 for similar specs. But, as a studio/non-action camera, it will be hard-pressed against the A7r2 and 5Ds successors - the frame rate won't come into play, the AF barely will and you're left with a 46MP sensor against something likely in the 60MP+ range, likely with dynamic range in the same ballpark.

Sure, 46MP is probably enough for most users. So is 7fps. But studio/landscape photographers are always going to want more resolution and DR (subject to minimal acceptable performance in other areas), just as action shooters are always going to want faster frame rates (subject to minimum-acceptable resolution).

Whether a higher-resolution, slower-shooting version eventuates will depend on whether Nikon can source a suitable sensor for it - there is certainly room for it in the lineup.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: MoreOrLess on August 21, 2017, 04:21:12 PM
It won't be competing against the 5Ds, though. It will need to compete against Canon and Sony's next-generation models - likely 5Ds2, 5D5 and A9r and/or A7r3. In the high-resolution role, it'll be up against 60-70MP, not 50MP.

Looking at the D850, it's pretty much a 5D4 that's been made bigger and better in every way - better AF, higher resolution, faster frame rate - or a beefed-up D750. It's not a Nikon-branded 5Ds, nor is it an updated D810. It's a general-purpose body with a nod towards action (D5 AF and 9fps), not a resolution/IQ specialist (although it outclasses every existing Nikon body in this). This suggests room for a high-resolution specialist alongside it, a bit like how the 5Ds exists alongside the 5D3/5D4.

If the D850 had 45MP and only 5fps, I'd be much more inclined to see it as the 'resolution' model, since, in that case, it would clearly not be an action body, and slow even for a general-purpose one. It would look more like Nikon's best attempt at a high-resolution body, with no compromises made to achieve a decent frame rate. But, with 9fps and a D5 action body, even with 46MP, it looks like they held back on the resolution in order to achieve greater frame rate for the same bandwidth. It may be that this decision was forced onto them, if a higher-resolution sensor wasn't available. Or it may be that a slower, higher-resolution body is planned at some stage.

As it stands, it outclasses the 5D4 in every respect and will likely cannibalise the D5 (since 46MP and 9fps is far more useful than 20MP and 1104fps with the same AF system for a lot of roles, particularly anything involving long telephotos). Just about the only thing the 5D4 has to compete on is cost, and likely not by a huge amount (the 5D4's launch price was USD3499). It will likely put up a huge challenge for the 5D5 even if Canon releases it two years from now - going from 30MP to 46MP, with a step up in both AF and fps, in a new camera, against the price of an 18-24-month-old D850 will be a tough ask. It even leaves room for a 30-36MP, 7fps D760 to replace the D750 and undercut the 5D4 for similar specs. But, as a studio/non-action camera, it will be hard-pressed against the A7r2 and 5Ds successors - the frame rate won't come into play, the AF barely will and you're left with a 46MP sensor against something likely in the 60MP+ range, likely with dynamic range in the same ballpark.

Sure, 46MP is probably enough for most users. So is 7fps. But studio/landscape photographers are always going to want more resolution and DR (subject to minimal acceptable performance in other areas), just as action shooters are always going to want faster frame rates (subject to minimum-acceptable resolution).

Whether a higher-resolution, slower-shooting version eventuates will depend on whether Nikon can source a suitable sensor for it - there is certainly room for it in the lineup.

I'm not really sure I see higher resolution comp from Canon coming in the near future though, Sony perhaps but I suspect that were now approaching the realms of diminishing returns on 35mm bodies for the vast majority of lenses.

What does seem more likely to me is that the medium format market will take a bit of a bite out of the high resolution FF market as cheaper options are getting more common. Right now I don't think the resolution on Sonys 44x33mm sensor is good enough to draw across large scale business but the larger format does probably have more potential for improvement so say a 70+ MP sensor could be a factor.

I think the best response to this for Nikon though is probably to try and maximise there advantages rather than looking to fight a resolution war that will target a market of diminishing size. Basically have a camera that can offer resolution and superior action shooting plus handling.

Personally speaking even as mostly a landscape shooter I do actually find the improvements in AF and FPS over my D800 potentially more interesting for branching out more into wildlife without a massive investment in lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 21, 2017, 10:02:21 PM
I'm not really sure I see higher resolution comp from Canon coming in the near future though, Sony perhaps but I suspect that were now approaching the realms of diminishing returns on 35mm bodies for the vast majority of lenses.

What does seem more likely to me is that the medium format market will take a bit of a bite out of the high resolution FF market as cheaper options are getting more common. Right now I don't think the resolution on Sonys 44x33mm sensor is good enough to draw across large scale business but the larger format does probably have more potential for improvement so say a 70+ MP sensor could be a factor.

The problem with MF is lens selection, particularly at the UWA and long telephoto ends. Most MF bodies and their lenses are designed with advertising, fashion and other commercial photography in mind - you won't get the equivalent of a 14mm, or even 16mm lens in that format, nor will you get something beyond around 200mm equivalent.

A MF sensor doesn't require as sharp a lens as a full-frame sensor to achieve higher resolution, but it's also much harder to make equally-sharp MF optics - the components all have to be larger. Conversely, a full-frame sensor can provide just as much resolution as a MF sensor, but will need sharper lenses to do so. Fortunately, sharp full-frame lenses are much easier to make than equally-sharp MF lenses...

The solution to higher resolution is not necessarily MF, but higher-grade lenses - Otus and Leica-style optics. Currently very expensive, but, with more demand due to higher-resolution sensors, prices will come down, especially if Canon/Nikon/Sony/Sigma get into the game.

Also, deformable curved sensors have the potential to greatly increase the resolution of optical systems by doing away with most of the optical elements in the lens. These are likely to first see use in fixed-lens systems with fixed sensors (e.g. phone cameras and RX-style bodies) but both Canon and Sony have now demonstrated models with adjustable curvature. New lenses would still be needed, though - you could still use a current lens on a deformable sensor, but the curvature would have to be set to zero (making it flat) and you wouldn't get any more out of it than with a fixed, flat sensor.

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I think the best response to this for Nikon though is probably to try and maximise there advantages rather than looking to fight a resolution war that will target a market of diminishing size. Basically have a camera that can offer resolution and superior action shooting plus handling.

That looks to be what the D850 is - a general-purpose camera that's not the fastest around, nor the highest-resolution, but has an ideal combination for roles that need both speed and resolution, and an AF system that can handle it. It was what Canon also did with the 5D3, and the 5D4 is a continuation of that (as compared with the 5D2, which was, for its time, a no-holds-barred IQ/resolution camera which barely pretended to have an AF system and shot at less than 4fps).

But Canon released a 5Ds as soon as they had a sensor that could provide the resolution. There's a big market out there for high-resolution bodies. Canon was unable to satisfy that market for a long period of time (and still hasn't made a body with both resolution and high DR, since the 5Ds uses the previous-generation sensor technology), so lost market share in that segment, firstly to the D800, then to the A7r/A7r2.

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Personally speaking even as mostly a landscape shooter I do actually find the improvements in AF and FPS over my D800 potentially more interesting for branching out more into wildlife without a massive investment in lenses.

I find it useful for one of the bodies. The other one should be an out-and-out resolution-focused camera. If both have high-end AF systems, with frame rate and resolution the main difference, they could each provide effective backup for the other. And they could both use the same set of lenses.

Sports photographers do the same with speed bodies - a D5/1Dx2/A9 for ultimate speed, another (general-purpose or crop body) for more reach. At present, the D500 would be the 'reach' body of choice for Nikon, but, with an equally-good AF system, the D850 would take that role, due to its greater cropping flexibility.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Colorado David on August 21, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
If the rumor is true that it will shoot 4K video on an uncropped FX sensor, I will probably buy one.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 22, 2017, 12:17:43 AM
But, regardless of the qualities of the D850 itself - performance as a sports, wildlife or landscape camera - a more pertinent question for those not currently shooting Nikon is the longevity of the current crop of F-mount lenses.

SLRs and OVFs are on their way out. Mirrorless is getting better with each iteration, is now on par with top-tier SLRs AF wise and has much more potential for development. And SLR lenses just don't focus very well with mirrorless AF - Canon EF lenses aren't great on EF-M cameras and Sony A-mount lenses aren't great on E-mount cameras. SLR and mirrorless will likely coexist for a time - there will probably be one or two more generations of 5D and D8xx bodies - but, more and more, new lens developments will be designed with mirrorless systems in mind,  while SLR lineups, like A-mount, will be left to fade away as legacy systems. Is it really a good idea to invest in a system unlikely to retain full support into the future? Or is 10 years' use out of your lens lineup enough to justify buying into the system?

Clearly, if you already own a stable of Nikon lenses, the D850 will represent an upgrade from what you're currently shooting, unless you absolutely need the 14fps of the D5 and can work with a much lower resolution. But, if you're not already invested in Nikon, the longevity of the system makes the wisdom of switching questionable, whether you shoot wildlife (and the D850 is ideal) or landscapes (where it may not be the optimal camera).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2017, 04:43:42 AM
SLRs and OVFs are on their way out. Mirrorless is getting better with each iteration, is now on par with top-tier SLRs AF wise and has much more potential for development.

Repeating the same thing tens of times doesn't make it more true. The A9 is amazing for a mirrorless and very good in absolute terms, but still isn't at D5 level in terms of tracking AF speed on quickly moving subjects, which is basically when it matters.

It does have some clear advantages over a D5 (such as frame rate and AF points coverage), but these currently unfortunately still come at a price in terms of AF speed compared to the best DSLR.

As far as potential goes, I would probably agree, but this is pure guessing.

But this must also be looked at in terms of the actual needs... and today a D5 correctly used is already very good at focusing in very challenging situations.

And SLR lenses just don't focus very well with mirrorless AF - Canon EF lenses aren't great on EF-M cameras and Sony A-mount lenses aren't great on E-mount cameras. SLR and mirrorless will likely coexist for a time - there will probably be one or two more generations of 5D and D8xx bodies - but, more and more, new lens developments will be designed with mirrorless systems in mind,  while SLR lineups, like A-mount, will be left to fade away as legacy systems. Is it really a good idea to invest in a system unlikely to retain full support into the future? Or is 10 years' use out of your lens lineup enough to justify buying into the system?

Yet, Canon lenses can be focused nearly as fast on the Sony a7/a9 as they can on native Canon bodies, so the potential isn't that bad. The main problem is that AF lenses designed for DSLR aren't good with contrast based AF systems... but the latest mirrorless aren't using contrast based any longer, so I am not too worried by the potential of recent Nikon glass on the future Nikon mirrorless bodies. Future will tell of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 22, 2017, 06:50:54 AM
Repeating the same thing tens of times doesn't make it more true. The A9 is amazing for a mirrorless and very good in absolute terms, but still isn't at D5 level in terms of tracking AF speed on quickly moving subjects, which is basically when it matters.

It does have some clear advantages over a D5 (such as frame rate and AF points coverage), but these currently unfortunately still come at a price in terms of AF speed compared to the best DSLR.

As far as potential goes, I would probably agree, but this is pure guessing.

But this must also be looked at in terms of the actual needs... and today a D5 correctly used is already very good at focusing in very challenging situations.

Compare it with the 1Dx2. The A9 is every bit as fast and accurate.

I never said it was the very best. I said it was up there with the top tier. And, however you look at it, the 1Dx2 is part of that top tier. And it certainly outclasses the 5D4, D750 and probably even the D4s. There are many tests out there confirming the A9 belongs with the 1Dx2 and D5 in this group.

It's also more accurate when dealing with razor-thin DOF and a slow-moving or nonmoving subject - the combination of CDAF with PDAF really helps.

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Yet, Canon lenses can be focused nearly as fast on the Sony a7/a9 as they can on native Canon bodies, so the potential isn't that bad. The main problem is that AF lenses designed for DSLR aren't good with contrast based AF systems... but the latest mirrorless aren't using contrast based any longer, so I am not too worried by the potential of recent Nikon glass on the future Nikon mirrorless bodies. Future will tell of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Tracking moving subjects with a Canon lens on an A9 is fast (nowhere near as fast as a 1Dx2, though) but not very accurate (lots of slightly OOF shots). With very shallow DOF, it's very accurate when given the time, but slow. Similar to an A-mount lens used on an adapter, but nowhere near the performance it achieves with a native E-mount lens.

Mirrorless cameras use both PDAF and CDAF simultaneously - PDAF for speed, to get 'close enough', and CDAF for pinpoint accuracy and AI focus modes (e.g. eye detection). SLR lenses handle the large, fast, low-frequency PDAF movements well, but struggle with the small, repeated, high-frequency CDAF movements which are required for mirrorless AF speed and accuracy.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2017, 12:32:11 PM
The D850 announcement is now scheduled for August 24, 2017, something like 36 hours from now. Not sure whose time-zone, but probably Europe. We will see.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 22, 2017, 02:15:42 PM
The D850 announcement is now scheduled for August 24, 2017, something like 36 hours from now. Not sure whose time-zone, but probably Europe. We will see.

Will be interesting. Performance-wise, probably the two big unknowns are DR (how well it does at base ISO, and how well it holds up in the 1600-6400 action range) and AF (as good as the D5/D500, or crippled for product segmentation).

Either way, it'll be a good thing no matter what system or subjects you shoot - it sets a high standard that Canon and Sony will have to meet. 46MP/9fps/top-tier AF is likely higher than what Canon would have aimed for in the 5D5, but it will have to meet that standard in at least one camera in order to continue to compete in the sports/wildlife market. It forces Sony to consider releasing something similar, even if they have a 70MP non-action model and the A9 - 46MP and 9fps is just so much more useful for most purposes than 24MP/20fps. And, for non-action cameras in general, it sets a high floor for resolution and DR - given that the D850 manages 46MP and can shoot fast action, if you're going to bring out a non-action camera that only manages 5fps, it had better have a huge advantage in resolution and base ISO performance (of the same magnitude as D3x vs D3s or 1Ds3 vs 1D3) or it is unlikely to succeed.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: MoreOrLess on August 22, 2017, 02:24:56 PM
I think were seeing a bit of a shift in the MF market though Shadow always from the traditional advertising/fashion bent and more towards something that might be used by landscape shooters. Cameras like the Pentax 645z and Fuji GFX are pushing more into UWA range with there lens selection, Fuji is going to have an 18mm equivalent soon for example.

I think fighting a pure resolution war against the larger format is a questionable tactic personally as I think you are going to be hitting serious limitations of a lot of 35mm lenses when you get above 50 MP. Right now these MF bodies aren't showing there true potential at 50 MP though and if a 100 MP 44x33mm sensor did happen as rumoured would clearly win that war.

The actual number of people who want resolution that high is though I would say not massive, perhaps significantly larger than the old MF advertising market in the past but not big on the scale of Nikon's normal sales targets. Theres IMHO significantly more to be gained from a camera that is seen to do everything well which I think the D850 is in with a good shot of being if all the rumours are true.

I think this camera could actually help them pickup a significant part of the higher end market personally as they seem like they might have got the drop on Canon who have stuck to the old mind-set with the 5D line of somewhat crippling to drive future upgrades and flagship sales which as they look like they've thrown absolutely everything they could at the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2017, 06:39:41 PM
It has just struck me that the D850 may finally be that digital F100/F6 many former F100/F6 users had been dreaming of.

The viewfinder in particular seems quite remarkable and it would make sense that Nikon gave to DSLRs users the best of the OVFs because the pleasure of using a nice OVF is one of the main reasons why some of us still choose to practise photography with a DSLR.

I have been shooting mostly with a H6D and D5 these past months, leaving my D810 pretty un-used although it still remains a great body, and I realize that, beyond the objective qualities of the H6D and D5, a key driver is their remarkable finders.

That is not something that fares well in a spec sheet comparison, that is akin to these little things that make some houses so much more likable that others.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Nikon D850 press release leaked
Post by: BJL on August 22, 2017, 07:55:49 PM
Sorry if this has already been shared; seems legit:
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/22/nikon-d850-press-release-leaked.aspx/

P. S. And this:
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/11/translation-of-the-leaked-nikon-d850-slides.aspx/
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on August 22, 2017, 08:45:52 PM
Overstepped a bit in regards to first digital reflex to offer focus stacking. P1 has had over a year now with the XF. And the process seems very similar using stepping motor microsdjustments.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 22, 2017, 09:41:19 PM
I think were seeing a bit of a shift in the MF market though Shadow always from the traditional advertising/fashion bent and more towards something that might be used by landscape shooters. Cameras like the Pentax 645z and Fuji GFX are pushing more into UWA range with there lens selection, Fuji is going to have an 18mm equivalent soon for example.

I think fighting a pure resolution war against the larger format is a questionable tactic personally as I think you are going to be hitting serious limitations of a lot of 35mm lenses when you get above 50 MP. Right now these MF bodies aren't showing there true potential at 50 MP though and if a 100 MP 44x33mm sensor did happen as rumoured would clearly win that war.

44mm isn't all that much bigger than 36mm. You'd gain more if you usually shot a squarer format, but not if you typically live at 3:2 or wider.

Add to that the completely new lens lineup required (no sharing lenses between your action and your non-action body) and the likely poor AF of such cameras and it's unlikely to be anything more than a niche option.

The centre of most good lenses - zooms and primes - can already handle up to 150-200MP, or potentially more. The edges are obviously a lot weaker, but good primes (Otus, some of the Sigma Arts, various other primes from Canon, Nikon and Sony) can handle a much higher resolution sensor than is currently available.

Then there's the usefulness of having more pixels. 54MP is a significant step up from 36MP, provided all the pixels are good (and not just the same smear spread over more pixels) - it gets you to 150ppi at a 60x40" print size, or 100ppi for a 90"-wide print. 70MP, or even 100-120MP, would be a significant step up from 54MP, since it gives you more usable detail at realistic, if large, print sizes (121.5MP would give you 150ppi at 60x90", while 96MP would give you 200ppi at 40x60"). But, beyond that, 150-200MP of real detail probably just wouldn't be that useful. Sensors of that resolution would be useful, even if they outresolved the lenses, as that would reduce aliasing artifacts without the need for AA filters, but that would not require a lens that resolves more than 120MP or so.

This is achievable corner-to-corner with lenses designed for 35mm format. They just need to be no-holds-barred designs, like Otus lenses, rather than run-of-the-mill lenses designed with production cost in mind. Or they could get a huge helping hand with curved sensor technology. And these are probably still going to be cheaper to make (and lighter to carry) than lenses with larger elements needed for MF sensors.

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The actual number of people who want resolution that high is though I would say not massive, perhaps significantly larger than the old MF advertising market in the past but not big on the scale of Nikon's normal sales targets. Theres IMHO significantly more to be gained from a camera that is seen to do everything well which I think the D850 is in with a good shot of being if all the rumours are true.

That was also the D750 and the 5D4. The D850 merely takes it one step further. It's a big step, though, since there now appears to be no compromise made in AF capability for those who need more resolution, but may not need the same frame rate. Previous generations always required you to choose between AF and resolution (when there's no technical connection between the two), not just frame rate and resolution (which are connected by limited bandwidth and processing speed). Now you can choose between super-fast and low-resolution, fast and mid-high-resolution and possibly (if Nikon completes the triad with a higher-resolution offering) slow and super-high resolution, all with the same AF system.

Quote
I think this camera could actually help them pickup a significant part of the higher end market personally as they seem like they might have got the drop on Canon who have stuck to the old mind-set with the 5D line of somewhat crippling to drive future upgrades and flagship sales which as they look like they've thrown absolutely everything they could at the D850.

Definitely. The 5D5 will need similar specs to compete, even if it were released in the next six months. Given that it is likely 2 years away, it will need to be even better. But Canon, being their usual arrogant selves (and only looking at the Japanese market) probably won't bite.

The 5Ds2, on the other hand, is in no danger, so long as they push the resolution/DR/IQ side of things to put it in a completely separate product category (dedicated to resolution rather than general-purpose).

Sony is probably more likely than Canon to release a competing product. Currently, they have a 24MP/20fps camera with a top-tier AF system. Continuing on from the A7r2, and incorporating improvements in on-sensor AF made since then, they will probably release a 60-80MP/5fps camera, likely with the same top-tier system. These bracket the D850 at both ends, but leaves a huge void in the middle for those who need more than 24MP, but also more than 5fps. It wouldn't surprise me if they ended the A7s line, kept the A9 as the speed/high-ISO version, kept the 'r' line as the resolution version and introduced something in the middle (around 48MP/10fps). So one model dedicated to speed/ISO, another to resolution/low ISO IQ, and a do-everything body in the middle, all with the same AF system. Their lens lineup is nowhere near competitive yet (particularly for the sports/wildlife users most likely to use a 48MP/10fps body), but the basics are there, and it can only improve.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 23, 2017, 06:03:56 AM
here the 'leaked' press release info of the d850

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/22/nikon-d850-press-release-leaked.aspx/

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: John Cothron on August 23, 2017, 09:47:28 AM
Sounds like it is indeed being marketed as a do it all body, and the stats look pretty good to me.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 23, 2017, 10:36:11 AM
Looks very interesting! Anyone has idea of price yet?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 23, 2017, 10:40:20 AM
Nikon Rumours thinks it will be 3800€ in Germany
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 23, 2017, 10:45:12 AM
Ok, that sounds ok :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2017, 12:08:15 PM
AUD5399.95 in Australia.

That works out to USD4262 at today's exchange rate. Australia has a 10% sales tax, which is included in the price.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 23, 2017, 04:56:28 PM
When will they start shipping?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2017, 05:04:47 PM
When will they start shipping?

Rumors say Sept 10.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 23, 2017, 05:15:08 PM
Wow, thats fast! Nice!
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on August 23, 2017, 06:12:29 PM
Off the B&H site currently. Am assuming it will go back after midnight with preorder available.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Nikon D850: increased video emphasis?
Post by: BJL on August 23, 2017, 06:58:49 PM
A lot of information in this leak matches earlier rumors, so what caught my eye is what looks like an increased emphasis on video: some 8K abilities, and one of the publicity shots show the D850 off with a microphone attached.

The focus-stacking support is interesting too—is that news, or was it already rumored?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2017, 07:01:13 PM
The stacking was already rumored.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: HSakols on August 23, 2017, 07:05:39 PM
From the specs (unofficial) the only real advantage seems like faster auto focus and 8k video.  I'd be surprised if there is any advantage (eg better dynamic range) over the Nikon 810.  Of course I will be interested in reading the reviews. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2017, 07:56:03 PM
The AF of the D5 alone would be worth the price for me... and these lenses...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4395/36596242662_c97a0a5548_o.jpg)
D5 + 70-200mm f2.8 E FL

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4397/35931753124_36d9a07925_o.jpg)
D5 + 400mm f2.8 E FL

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2017, 10:16:28 PM
From the specs (unofficial) the only real advantage seems like faster auto focus and 8k video.  I'd be surprised if there is any advantage (eg better dynamic range) over the Nikon 810.  Of course I will be interested in reading the reviews.

For a landscape photographer, it probably doesn't offer much other than a few more MP - probably not USD4000 worth. The automatic stacking could be useful for telephoto landscapes/cityscapes, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it manually at the moment.

If you shoot anything else at all, the AF and FPS, combined with resolution/pixel density, likely make it much more useful and versatile than the D810, D5 and D500 (unless you absolutely need 12/14fps).

And, again, it looks like it'll be the world's best wildlife camera.

It's a lot like the 5D2 to 5D3 upgrade, really - more like a product repositioning than a real successor.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2017, 11:10:17 PM
It's a lot like the 5D2 to 5D3 upgrade, really - more like a product repositioning than a real successor.

How was the 5D3 a product re positioning relative to the 5D2?

How is the D850 not a successor to the D810? I mean other than your theory that it won't have as much SR at base ISO of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2017, 11:40:25 PM
How was the 5D3 a product re positioning relative to the 5D2?

How is the D850 not a successor to the D810? I mean other than your theory that it won't have as much SR at base ISO of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

5D2 was all sensor with poor frame rate, poor AF, single card, etc. It was the high-resolution body of its time - Nikon was stuck at 12MP. Good for non-action photography and not much else. The 5D3 added much better AF and frame rate and the sensor was no longer top-of-the-line. It was a general photographer's camera, not a studio/landscape body. The D800e had taken the 5D2's mantle, with 36MP but slow frame rate and mediocre AF. Canon didn't release a true successor - prioritising high resolution, without regard for frame rate or other action-related factors - until the 5Ds.

I never said the D850 wouldn't have as much DR at base ISO. I said there may not be an improvement at base ISO. Big difference. And that, if they had to choose between high DR at base ISO and keeping up with other action bodies at ISO 1600-6400, it would make more sense to prioritise the latter.

It's not a successor because it's obviously aimed at a different subset of photographers. The D810 was not an action camera. It prioritised resolution and base-ISO DR, at the expense of almost everything else. Even the D750 outperforms it when shooting action or at mid-high ISO. The D850, on the other hand, does everything the 5D4, D750 and D500 do, and almost everything the D5 does, but better.

There may be a successor to the D810 in the works, but the D850 is not it. It's much more like a beefed-up D750, or a D5 that traded some speed for double the resolution, than a replacement studio/landscape body designed for the highest possible resolution. Look at the specs, not the name.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 12:09:27 AM
First official samples available.

http://www.nikon-image.com/products/slr/lineup/d850/sample.html

ISO64 looks amazingly good, totally noise free and super sharp.

Due to ship on 8th Sept in Japan, price in the US is 3,300 US$, it sells for 359,000 Yen in Japan which is 30,000 Yen cheaper than the street price of the 5DIV.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 01:36:46 AM
5D2 was all sensor with poor frame rate, poor AF, single card, etc. It was the high-resolution body of its time - Nikon was stuck at 12MP. Good for non-action photography and not much else. The 5D3 added much better AF and frame rate and the sensor was no longer top-of-the-line. It was a general photographer's camera, not a studio/landscape body. The D800e had taken the 5D2's mantle, with 36MP but slow frame rate and mediocre AF. Canon didn't release a true successor - prioritising high resolution, without regard for frame rate or other action-related factors - until the 5Ds.

I don't agree, Canon put their best sensor in the 5DIII, the fact that it was behind the competition is a different issue.

The requirements for non action photography did not evolve significantly between the time the 5D2 was released and the 5D3 was released. In other words the 5D3 was at least as good as the 5D2 for non action subjects. The fact that it could do more things thanks to a better AF, did not change its positioning as a body able, to some extend and to the best of Canon's abilities, to handle landscape.

I also don't agree that the D800's AF was poor. It was at least as good as the AF of the 5D3, using the same module as the D4, which Canon wasn't doing (the 5DIV is the first mid range Canon DSLR to use the same AF as their flagship).

I never said the D850 wouldn't have as much DR at base ISO. I said there may not be an improvement at base ISO. Big difference. And that, if they had to choose between high DR at base ISO and keeping up with other action bodies at ISO 1600-6400, it would make more sense to prioritise the latter.

Staying at the same level as the D810 would put it equal to MF sensors. Are you saying that these aren't suitable for landscape work or that this is a compromise?

It's not a successor because it's obviously aimed at a different subset of photographers. The D810 was not an action camera. It prioritised resolution and base-ISO DR, at the expense of almost everything else. Even the D750 outperforms it when shooting action or at mid-high ISO. The D850, on the other hand, does everything the 5D4, D750 and D500 do, and almost everything the D5 does, but better.

I have used extensively my D810 with my 400mm f2.8 on various moving subjects and it is doing a great job, not as good as a D5 obviously, but great in absolute terms. Again, you are trying to present a biased version of reality to try to make reality fit in your model...

There may be a successor to the D810 in the works, but the D850 is not it. It's much more like a beefed-up D750, or a D5 that traded some speed for double the resolution, than a replacement studio/landscape body designed for the highest possible resolution. Look at the specs, not the name.

Again, this is just your view of things that isn't share by Nikon nor by a majority of the commentators reporting about the D850 announcement over the web. Seeing how you have to bend facts to fit into your mold, I don't believe that you have a correct view of things.

My view is that the D850 is a successor of the D810, but Nikon may release a new D5x or a D900 that expands their range towards even higher levels of resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2017, 03:13:55 AM
I don't agree, Canon put their best sensor in the 5DIII, the fact that it was behind the competition is a different issue.

The requirements for non action photography did not evolve significantly between the time the 5D2 was released and the 5D3 was released. In other words the 5D3 was at least as good as the 5D2 for non action subjects. The fact that it could do more things thanks to a better AF, did not change its positioning as a body able, to some extend and to the best of Canon's abilities, to handle landscape.

Sony put its best AF system of the time into the A7r2. That makes it an action camera. At the time, the D4s and 1Dx existed

Nikon put its highest-resolution sensor into the D700. That makes it a landscape/studio camera. At the time, the 1Ds3 existed and the 5D2 and A900 were a few months away.

Of course not. Sony just didn't have an action camera in 2015. Canon didn't have a studio camera in 2012. Nikon didn't have one in 2018.

And the standard changed between the 5D2 and 5D3. The D800e was launched. The standard went from 24MP to 36MP. Otherwise so many non-action photographers wouldn't have abandoned Canon during that time. But they did - you can see it in the user-segmented market share.

Quote
I also don't agree that the D800's AF was poor. It was at least as good as the AF of the 5D3, using the same module as the D4, which Canon wasn't doing (the 5DIV is the first mid range Canon DSLR to use the same AF as their flagship).

Same module as the D4. That did not mean D4 performance. The D750 outshoots it AF-wise. Together with the 4fps frame rate, the D800 was not an action camera. The D850 is.

Quote
Staying at the same level as the D810 would put it equal to MF sensors. Are you saying that these aren't suitable for landscape work or that this is a compromise?

MF sensors of years ago. Times and standards change. 8 years ago, the 21MP 5D2 and 24MP D3x were the top tier of full-frame image quality. 21MP MF bodies were commonplace. These days, any full-frame body can outshoot them.

So, yes, it is a compromise. Sony and Canon put out 42MP and 50MP sensors two years ago. Any replacement will undoubtedly have higher resolution and (in the case of Canon) better DR. Both companies have demonstrated it. If Sony can build a 46MP, 9fps sensor for Nikon, it can build a 70MP, 5fps sensor for itself, for a no-holds-barred non-action body. The fact that Nikon went with that compromise - willingly or unwillingly - isn't a bad thing. It just means that this isn't the 5D2/D800e/A7r2 of 2017 - it's a general-purpose and action camera, not a resolution specialist.

Quote
I have used extensively my D810 with my 400mm f2.8 on various moving subjects and it is doing a great job, not as good as a D5 obviously, but great in absolute terms. Again, you are trying to present a biased version of reality to try to make reality fit in your model...

Again, this is just your view of things that isn't share by Nikon nor by a majority of the commentators reporting about the D850 announcement over the web. Seeing how you have to bend facts to fit into your mold, I don't believe that you have a correct view of things.

My view is that the D850 is a successor of the D810, but Nikon may release a new D5x or a D900 that expands their range towards even higher levels of resolution.

Who's bending facts now? You've gone on nothing but the name and said that the D850 is the direct successor to the D810, when the specs (relative to the standard of the day) don't support it, and even Nikon itself hasn't said that it is.

Take a camera with exactly the same specs and functions and put a D760 label on it. Now which camera's successor does it look like? What about a D900 label? Does it still look like a D810 successor?

The label doesn't make the camera. The features do.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 03:19:56 AM
May I suggest that we re-focus on facts related to the new camera and keep our view of its positioning for ourselves? I don't have the impression that anything new has been added to the discussion in the last 20-30 posts frankly speaking.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 24, 2017, 05:40:32 AM
I ordered a copy of the Nikon D850 and a couple of batteries. I would like to order the Nikon es-2 slide copier, which they mention for the Nikon D850, but I only see the Nikon es-1 slide copier for sale. Anyone know about this? Does the Es-1 work for the D850?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on August 24, 2017, 06:23:06 AM
Well, there it is, £3500 RRP and you can put your money down and get it September.

So was the speculation here worth the ink you didn't use? Is it ever? The sweat, the research, the rising temperatures? So that's what it means to be a fanboy, then; hey ho.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 06:32:17 AM
So was the speculation here worth the ink you didn't use? Is it ever? The sweat, the research, the rising temperatures? So that's what it means to be a fanboy, then; hey ho.

Yes, it was worth it a thousand times! :)

We have learned so much in the process.

Too bad we will have to wait another 2 long years to get something similar from Canon. It feels a bit like those eclipses doesn't it?  :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2017, 06:57:24 AM
The 5D5 won't be due for another 2 years or so. Even so, it would be a huge jump from the 5D4 just to match it, let alone surpass it by 2 years' worth of development.

It's also likely that Nikon will release a D750 successor with capabilities similar to the 5D4, but undercutting the price by USD1000 or more.

But just because the 5D4 isn't due for replacement doesn't mean Canon won't bring in a higher line of general-purpose body - say, 3D - with similar capabilities to the D850. That would leave the 5D line to compete with the D750 and successors and A7 and successors, the 5Ds line to compete with the ultra-high resolution bodies, the 3D to compete with the D850 (and whatever medium-high resolution, medium-high frame rate and top-tier AF body Sony brings out) and the 1Dx line to compete with the D5 and A9. I don't know if Canon will do this, but, if they don't, it will be very hard for them to compete with both the D850 and an ultra-high-resolution Sony body , particularly given the price of the D850.

It's probably more likely that Sony releases a competitive camera than Canon. We already know they have the capability (they built the Nikon sensor, so can certainly do at least as well for their own camera) and their existing A9 already has the data bandwidth. They're also a far less conservative company less likely to be so stubborn as to ignore the competition. Just release the A9 in three different versions - 24MP/20fps, 48MP/10fps and 72MP/6fps - and be done with it.

I hope they do it. I want an ultra-high-resolution landscape body and a wildlife/action body with good cropability that can share the same lenses.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 24, 2017, 08:55:32 AM
If i understand correctly Nikon has made Liveview its EVF. ( focus peaking , silent shutter etc)
What i do not understand is that they ( still) do not make a dedicated Loop that is attached with magnets.
Now I have to start making my own again.
I always end up with a camera that needs gaffa tape to work in a proper way.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on August 24, 2017, 09:03:56 AM
If i understand correctly Nikon has made Liveview its EVF. ( focus peaking , silent shutter etc)
What i do not understand is that they ( still) do not make a dedicated Loop that is attached with magnets.
Now I have to start making my own again.
I always end up with a camera that needs gaffa tape to work in a proper way.

You have my sympathy. I just use electrical tape over the names and numbers and so nobody breaks down in tears of mirth when I appear in public with my camera.

They never look at the photographs anyway, so my little, shameful secret stays mine. Cool! Absolutely no pressure to buy another product that wouldn't make the slightest difference to my abilities or lack of 'em!

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 24, 2017, 09:22:09 AM
May I suggest that we re-focus on facts related to the new camera and keep our view of its positioning for ourselves?

I was wondering. We'll soon be able to derive the actual information from Raw files ourselves, but aren't Back-Side Illuminated (BSI) sensors better in Quantum Efficiency (QE) but somewhat worse in Dynamic Range (DR), compared to front side illuminated CMOS devices?

In all leaked information, there seems to be no specific mention of DR. Maybe that means that it's the same as earlier models, but with the change to BSI, one would expect more information about that aspect (similar/different/better/worse).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 09:52:54 AM
I was wondering. We'll soon be able to derive the actual information from Raw files ourselves, but aren't Back-Side Illuminated (BSI) sensors better in Quantum Efficiency (QE) but somewhat worse in Dynamic Range (DR), compared to front side illuminated CMOS devices?

In all leaked information, there seems to be no specific mention of DR. Maybe that means that it's the same as earlier models, but with the change to BSI, one would expect more information about that aspect (similar/different/better/worse).

We'll know soon enough. To my eyes the ISO 64 full size jpg samples available on the Japan Nikon side seem incredibly clean.

DPreview first initial feedback mention that ISO64 seems very clean too.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2017, 10:02:18 AM
I wouldn't rely on promotional JPEGs for any sort of analysis.

Not only would they have gone through noise reduction, but they would also have been hand-picked to show the strengths of the camera, not its limitations.

For instance, Canon promotional shots in the past would never have revealed the banding.

Wait for the PDR and DxO sensor analyses for the raw data.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 10:28:53 AM
Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on August 24, 2017, 10:51:57 AM
Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard


Poor memory prevents me remembering the guilty party, but it has happened in the past.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 24, 2017, 10:59:21 AM
If the D850 is a good as the specs. This will do for me nicely and makes me happier that I did not hang on to the X1D and the GFX. I now can use all my Nikon glass and at a bargain price compared to MF.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2017, 11:23:29 AM
Sure... Nikon would take the risk to fake their sample images...

Who knows, perhars they stole a Sony prototype camera to produce better samples than their own?

Cheers,
Bernard

Not fake. Just well-chosen, and with in-camera NR set to hide the noise. A noise-free JPEG at base ISO doesn't mean anything - any camera can do it. Just set it up in good lighting, expose to the right (ensuring that the chosen scene falls well within the camera's DR) and let NR handle whatever little noise is left. A perfect image, and it tells you about as much about the sensor's capabilities as tracking a tortoise tells you about the AF.

If you want to assess image quality, you need to see RAWs, preferably shot in difficult and high-contrast lighting conditions.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Christopher on August 24, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
I think the d850 is a great camera and will sell very well. What I headed from friends around me it was orders quite often to day. Much better more often compared to other camera releases.

For me it's just not the right tool. I prefer the GFX and P1, for the few times I need something else renting is just the smarter solution.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 24, 2017, 12:10:14 PM
I just noticed that the D850 grip uses the D4/D5 battery. That's good for me; one less set of batteries to buy.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: sbay on August 24, 2017, 12:10:51 PM
We'll know soon enough. To my eyes the ISO 64 full size jpg samples available on the Japan Nikon side seem incredibly clean.

How do they compare to jpegs out of the D810?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 24, 2017, 01:34:10 PM
question,

if i buy a perpetual version of Lightroom will it cover the d850?
or will it only be covered in the CS version.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2017, 05:16:05 PM
How do they compare to jpegs out of the D810?

I don't think the D850 samples are out of camera jpgs, I believe they are most likely raw files processed through the Nikon raw converter.

To my eyes ISO64 seems even cleaner than D810, and cleaner than the files I am getting from my H6D-100c. But I do of course agree that we'll have to wait for the raw files analysis to know for sure.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 24, 2017, 07:28:30 PM
Some interesting aspects selected from the Imaging-resources website's review (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM):

Quote
11) The Nikon D850 uses a backside-illuminated (BSI) sensor, but not for the reason you might think.

    The D850 uses the first backside-illuminated sensor in Nikon's DSLR lineup, but when we asked about it, it turned out the reason wasn't to provide better low-light performance (its pixels are big enough that there's not much gain in ISO speed by moving the wiring to the back of the chip), but rather to give more flexibility in the chip's wiring, to achieve the high speed they were after. Interesting...

Might be Marketing speak?

Quote
14) Nikon says dynamic range will be as good or better than that of the D810, despite the higher pixel count.

    They've stated that there is no trade-offs to be made in balancing dynamic range at base ISO vs. higher ISOs, and that this sensor resolution represents the optimum balance for performance and image quality.

QED

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 24, 2017, 07:41:59 PM
Some interesting aspects selected from the Imaging-resources website's review (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM):

Might be Marketing speak?

QED


Can't wait to get my hands on it and see if it's got DR-Pix, or something similar.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on August 24, 2017, 07:45:57 PM
I was wondering. We'll soon be able to derive the actual information from Raw files ourselves, but aren't Back-Side Illuminated (BSI) sensors better in Quantum Efficiency (QE) but somewhat worse in Dynamic Range (DR), compared to front side illuminated CMOS devices?
I do not see any fundamental reason for BSI sensors to have lower DR; indeed it seems to have the potential for greater well depth leading to increased DR. But it might be the case with implementations so far. The tentative good news on DR is that the base speed is still the same low 64 ISO, with "pulls" down to 32.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 24, 2017, 07:58:18 PM
I do not see any fundamental reason for BSI sensors to have lower DR; indeed it seems to have the potential for greater well depth leading to increased DR. But it might be the case with implementations so far. The tentative good news on DR is that the base speed is still the same low 64 ISO, with "pulls" down to 32.

BSI certainly didn't seem to hurt the a7RII DR.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on August 24, 2017, 09:04:09 PM
I do not see any fundamental reason for BSI sensors to have lower DR; [...]

I'm not sure, but wouldn't having the transfer gates behind the photo-sensitive areas, reduce the real-estate for deep "wells"?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on August 24, 2017, 10:20:07 PM
One interesting comment that caught my attention in the Imaging Resource review was the claim by Nikon that the image quality of the D850 will be a full stop better than the D810 at higher ISOs.

"While they didn't attribute it to the BSI sensor, Nikon told us that the D850 should produce the same image quality (both JPEG and RAW) at twice the ISOs as the D810, a full-stop improvement. That is, the D850 at its top "native" ISO of 25,600 should deliver the same image quality as the D810 did at ISO 12,800."

Now, I very rarely use ISOs as high as 12,800. However, if that increased image quality also  at applies to ISOs such as 400, 800, 1600 and 3200, I would consider a full stop of improvement at such ISOs to be a very appealing upgrade.

However, I imagine the improvement over the D810 will vary according to the ISO chosen. Perhaps it will be a maximum of one full stop better at very high ISO's, and perhaps only a 1/2 stop better at ISO 400 or 800 or 1600; but that's still a worthwhile improvement.

This camera's going to generate an enormous amount of discussion because of the multitude of significantly upgraded features, compared with the D800E and D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Christopher on August 25, 2017, 02:36:45 AM
Missing some the best ISO... http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on August 25, 2017, 03:05:22 AM
Missing some the best ISO... http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

I'll wait for DXOMark's results which I've always found to be reasonably accurate according to my own rigorous testing.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2017, 03:33:10 AM
I'll wait for DXOMark's results which I've always found to be reasonably accurate according to my own rigorous testing.

PDR and DxO data are closely correlated, with small differences due to sample variation. In fact, PDR values can be directly calculated from DxO data (not the DR value alone, but the whole DxO dataset).

But the PDR data on the D850 so far is incomplete - I'd wait for the complete dataset before passing judgment.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2017, 04:50:32 AM
I'm not sure, but wouldn't having the transfer gates behind the photo-sensitive areas, reduce the real-estate for deep "wells"?

Cheers,
Bart

Not really... before the electronics were in the way of the light path... BSI increases noise - ratio performance and DR... especially in smaller sensors... in bigger sensors like full frame, the benefits are smaller, since the wiring was already very small with respect the area of the pixel... there is probably a benefit, but an small one...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2017, 04:53:52 AM
question,

if i buy a perpetual version of Lightroom will it cover the d850?
or will it only be covered in the CS version.

Yes, unless Lightroom releases version 7, version 6 is updated like the CC verdion, new features will be disabled, but camera, lens support and bug fixes will be available for both...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2017, 05:08:48 AM
Not really... before the electronics were in the way of the light path... BSI increases noise - ratio performance and DR... especially in smaller sensors... in bigger sensors like full frame, the benefits are smaller, since the wiring was already very small with respect the area of the pixel... there is probably a benefit, but an small one...



http://dgpfotografia.com

That doesn't actually affect the maximum DR, but the rate at which light can be collected. That affects high ISO performance (more light hitting the sensor in the same space of time means a higher SNR above base ISO and less amplification needed to achieve the same ISO), but moving the circuitry from the front to the back doesn't, in itself, increase the SNR or DR at base ISO. Only increasing the FWC or reducing the noise will do that.

In a way, it's a bit like changing the aperture on a lens - opening it up will let photons in faster, but won't actually change the maximum number which can be recorded by the sensor.

You can see it in comparing the A7r and A7r2 sensors (although there's more than just BSI to that). The A7r2 has similar DR at base ISO, but significantly more at high ISO. Since more photons are being collected in the same space of time (with fewer being blocked by circuitry/hitting non-photosensitive areas) the SNR achieved at any given ISO level above base is higher than for the non-BSI sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 25, 2017, 05:19:00 AM
Yes, unless Lightroom releases version 7, version 6 is updated like the CC verdion, new features will be disabled, but camera, lens support and bug fixes will be available for both..
http://dgpfotografia.com

Ok thanks- that will be my upgrade path from CS6.
A lightroom 7 with a new Raw engine (2012!) would be even better...
Main problem now is for me is moiré and false colour in general.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2017, 05:23:24 AM
That doesn't actually affect the maximum DR, but the rate at which light can be collected. That affects high ISO performance (more light hitting the sensor in the same space of time means a higher SNR above base ISO and less amplification needed to achieve the same ISO), but moving the circuitry from the front to the back doesn't, in itself, increase the SNR or DR at base ISO. Only increasing the FWC or reducing the noise will do that.

In a way, it's a bit like changing the aperture on a lens - opening it up will let photons in faster, but won't actually change the maximum number which can be recorded by the sensor.

You can see it in comparing the A7r and A7r2 sensors (although there's more than just BSI to that). The A7r2 has similar DR at base ISO, but significantly more at high ISO. Since more photons are being collected in the same space of time (with fewer being blocked by circuitry/hitting non-photosensitive areas) the SNR achieved at any given ISO level above base is higher than for the non-BSI sensor.

Thanks for the info!


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2017, 05:28:29 AM
Ok thanks- that will be my upgrade path from CS6.
A lightroom 7 with a new Raw engine (2012!) would be even better...
Main problem now is for me is moiré and false colour in general.

Even if you don't want to buy Lightroom 6, you can download adobe DNG converter to convert the Nikon Raws to DNG (when it supports the D850) and use then with your CS6... the main problem will be if you don't like DNG format or want to change to Capture ONE in the future, they don't have good support of DNGs as far as I know...

About moire, I know Lightroom CC has a tool to handle it, not sure when it was introduced, with 6 or previously...

Good news is that, with more MPx less probability of moire in your pictures


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2017, 05:47:23 AM
I would give C1 pro a try, it works wonders on Nikon files.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 25, 2017, 06:10:59 AM
I would give C1 pro a try, it works wonders on Nikon files.

Cheers,
Bernard
I did - a few times- but somehow did not like it-  maybe i will try it again with the next upgrade...
i like the uniform sharpness of ACR in the images ; for instance if you have a picture of grass ( football field)  capture-one mashes up some parts ( discontinuity) while ACR gives a more uniform sharpness from close to far.
For colour i would choose Nikons NX- but is miss the sharpness i get with ACR....

(Speaking of grass- i really am sensitive to that colour green on photographs often find it a very ugly colour... while in reality it is not an issue)

For sensitive photos i have a work around to deal with the colour issues in ACR. On the whole i like the workflow of ACR and also use it for 6400 asa images.
I test everything printing it on my 44 inch printer 150 dpi to check.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 25, 2017, 06:52:24 AM
Here is a question I have. The Nikon D850 uses a new battery, the EN-EL15a. But somewhere I thought I read that you can use the EN-EL15 batteries from the D810, but have a little less power. Does anyone know the answer to this, please?

Added later to this post: It looks like both batteries will work. Correct?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on August 25, 2017, 06:56:30 AM
I did - a few times- but somehow did not like it-  maybe i will try it again with the next upgrade...
i like the uniform sharpness of ACR in the images ; for instance if you have a picture of grass ( football field)  capture-one mashes up some parts ( discontinuity) while ACR gives a more uniform sharpness from close to far.
For colour i would choose Nikons NX- but is miss the sharpness i get with ACR....

(Speaking of grass- i really am sensitive to that colour green on photographs often find it a very ugly colour... while in reality it is not an issue)

For sensitive photos i have a work around to deal with the colour issues in ACR. On the whole i like the workflow of ACR and also use it for 6400 asa images.
I test everything printing it on my 44 inch printer 150 dpi to check.


How odd; I find exactly the same problem. I also feel a bit negative to yellow in the same way.

In fact, I am getting to the stage where I don't really like colour photography much at all. There are some images where monochromatic colour is used to wonderful effect, but on the whole, bright, strong colours turn me right off. It's as if the picture can't make its mind up.

Rob C
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 25, 2017, 07:20:31 AM
The Nikon brochure.

http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-YRYNeYvAi9beHK4x3L-8h09FYyKWnWU6L2l14O7STBw==/Misc/D850_brochure.pdf

Above is the most info in one place.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on August 25, 2017, 08:25:47 AM
What's with this link? Every image is soft even though the copy is as sharp as a 50s Glaswegian razor.

I believe myself to be on Firefox...

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on August 25, 2017, 08:33:42 AM
Thanks,

this brochure tells the same story 4 times... (!)
Overall i am impressed with the abundance of technology put into the body. ( the brochure had the desired effect on me)

what i find interesting:
Silent mode
"This mode can be used in approx. 6-fps continuous shooting, but can also shoot approx. 8.6-megapixel pictures in DX image area at approx. 30 fps*2.
*1 In M and A modes. Aperture drive sound occurs in P and S modes.
*2 Continuous shooting is available for up to approx. 3 s."

edit- question is how long does a complete readout takes?

Produce amazing dynamic range — HDR
i am curious to see the quality of the blend- do not like in most occasions the Active D-Lighting for it introduces halos

focus stacking
"The shutter release interval can be set from 0-30 s, while the focus step width can be selected from 10 levels. Continuous shooting at approx. 5 fps is also available"

- what i do not understand:

remote control 
The Nikon d850 has wifi and bluetooth  but still needs awkward externals like the WR-1, WR-R10/WR-T10 Wireless Remote controllers/receivers

no word about split screen
is it abandoned or was it too unimportant to cover?


Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on August 25, 2017, 08:55:52 AM
One issues continues, it appears unless I have mis-read specs, the longest shutter speed is 30 seconds.  AGAIN, NIKON please give users a REAL intervalometer, one that has a timer.  Just  like you did with the D810A.  You know it can be done. 

Amazing oversight IMO.  Total disconnect with photographers shooting the night sky, as exposures longer than 30 seconds are very common.  Not everyone wants a cliche timelaspe of the Milkyway. 

Back to the need for an  external intervalometer.    As a photographer of the night sky, I am a bit stunned that Nikon choose to leave this single feature out.  They talk a lot about timelaspe and the rest, but to limit the camera to the old fashion 30 seconds max and no timer, wow. 
And since Nikon did add it to the D810A, they know it's not a big deal.

Thank goodness Fuji, and Phase One, and Hasselblad figured this out. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Preliminary PDR
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 25, 2017, 11:22:35 AM
Bill Claff has posted some preliminary PDR numbers:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

No ISO 64 point yet.

Looks like probably no DR-Pix.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: NancyP on August 25, 2017, 09:08:20 PM
They must have "Bulb" setting? Yes, for $3,300.00, it would make sense to have an intervalometer, but considering that you can add that functionality for ~$50.00 with a generic wired intervalometer (mine is Vello), it is a small issue.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: mcbroomf on August 26, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
I ordered a copy of the Nikon D850 and a couple of batteries. I would like to order the Nikon es-2 slide copier, which they mention for the Nikon D850, but I only see the Nikon es-1 slide copier for sale. Anyone know about this? Does the Es-1 work for the D850?

The ES-2 seems to be available now (for pre-order)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1357884-REG/nikon_27192_es_2_film_digitalizing_adapet.html
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/miscellaneous/es-2-film-digitizing-adapter.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-Overview
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: mcbroomf on August 26, 2017, 08:56:39 AM
They must have "Bulb" setting? Yes, for $3,300.00, it would make sense to have an intervalometer, but considering that you can add that functionality for ~$50.00 with a generic wired intervalometer (mine is Vello), it is a small issue.

There is a bulb mode.  Not sure what "time" means ("T" vs "B"?)

Shutter speeds 1/8000 to 30 s in steps of 1/3, 1/2 or
1 EV, bulb, time, X250

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2017, 09:47:15 AM
Forgot which is which, but one keeps the shutter opens as long as the user presses while the second mode open shutter on first press and closes shutter on second press.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: mcbroomf on August 26, 2017, 10:18:47 AM
Forgot which is which, but one keeps the shutter opens as long as the user presses while the second mode open shutter on first press and closes shutter on second press.

Cheers,
Bernard

B you have to hold and T is a press for start, press for stop.  All my LF lens shutters have both ... I was frustrated with the Sony which only has B until I found that the cheap IR remotes acts as a T setting so good to see that Nikon have both built in.  Still I agree with Paul that longer manual settings would be useful.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2017, 08:16:06 PM
First DR measurements are starting to pop-up, it would seem that the D850 has the same DR as the D810 at base ISO64.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60033423

That sounds like excellent news to me!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: BJL on August 27, 2017, 09:53:23 PM
Maybe this has already been said, but the D850 specs seem to show that Nikon can get a top-quality sensor designed and made to fit its needs, so I think we can can stop worrying that Nikon is hampered by having to settle fpr whatever second-best sensors that Sony puts in its catalog. Maybe at times Canon hampers itself by insisting too much on doing everything in-house,  it of course it could always drop that if it fell too far behind in sensor fab ability: Sony would love a huge customer like Canon.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on August 27, 2017, 09:56:19 PM
First DR measurements are starting to pop-up, it would seem that the D850 has the same DR as the D810 at base ISO64.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60033423

That sounds like excellent news to me!

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

"These are early estimates based on available NEF files but not NEFs taken specifically to the PDR protocol."

Hasn't Nikon stated that at high ISOs image quality should be one full stop better than the D810? I would expect the D850 to have image quality at least equal to the D810 at ISO 64. However, an improvement at high ISOs, say all ISOs above 400, would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2017, 10:07:56 PM
Maybe this has already been said, but the D850 specs seem to show that Nikon can get a top-quality sensor designed and made to fit its needs, so I think we can can stop worrying that Nikon is hampered by having to settle fpr whatever second-best sensors that Sony puts in its catalog. Maybe at times Canon hampers itself by insisting too much on doing everything in-house,  it of course it could always drop that if it fell too far behind in sensor fab ability: Sony would love a huge customer like Canon.

A few posters, typically owning Sony equipment, have been spreading negative views about Nikon for months.

It is a bit as if they thought that Sony cameras are mostly a sensor with a box around it and if the differentiation of the sensor were a mandatory condition for their success. It is sad because Sony cameras are great in their own right.

I continue to strongly dispute the proposition that it would be in the best interest of Sony not to sell their best sensors to Nikon. Very few of the sensors they would not sell in Nikon bodies would end up in Sony bodies. The cross selling btwn these 2 is much more limited than they seem to think. Sony would end up both losing an important income for their sensor division and also indirectly help strengthen the competitor Nikon would end up working with.

And, once again, these Nikon naysayers are very quickly forgetting that the Nikon orders pretty funded for many many years the development of the great sensor technology we see today in APS-C and FX bodies. I am fully aware that mobile phones were another key funding stream, but there is a difference between a mobile phone sensor and one for a DSLR.

The D850 sensor should indeed clearly put an end to this story... but it won't... because now they are coming up with the theory that 46mp isn't a high resolution sensor... and that the real best sensor of Sony will end up in these... ;)

At some point in time, it will become important to get back to photography and to compare the great images captured with D850 to the non existent images captured with a some day to be released super high magical sensor in a Sony body.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:22:45 PM
I continue to strongly dispute the proposition that it would be in the best interest of Sony not to sell their best sensors to Nikon.

why dispute ? of course Sony Imaging 'd love not to sell, but it does not make sensors
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:25:55 PM
but there is a difference between a mobile phone sensor and one for a DSLR.
sure, that is why BSI first was tested first in smaller sensors and stacked tech (Exmor-RS) also... most probably even aptina's DR-Pix was there...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:29:45 PM
It is a bit as if they thought that Sony cameras are mostly a sensor with a box around it and if the differentiation of the sensor were a mandatory condition for their success.

but Sony's dSLMs are indeed differentiated by the sensor :-)... bodies of the same generation are sufficiently identical... true there are some technologies that were arriving too late, so for example A7R was crippled by no EFCS and no IBIS, but it is exception and not the rule... the rule for Sony worlds is that sensor is what differentiate and everything else (like AF, FPS, etc) is simply the result of the sensor capability
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:31:23 PM
Maybe at times Canon hampers itself by insisting too much on doing everything in-house,
market share dynamics so far proves Canon right...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
First DR measurements are starting to pop-up, it would seem that the D850 has the same DR as the D810 at base ISO64.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60033423

That sounds like excellent news to me!

Cheers,
Bernard

just don't forget that Ph2Ph does not calculate per sensel PDR... so it is the same PDR assuming the ideal downsizing... and raw converters/post processing are not ideal math-wise once you start doing demosaicking and color transforms first.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 27, 2017, 10:44:38 PM
Bernard,

"These are early estimates based on available NEF files but not NEFs taken specifically to the PDR protocol."

Hasn't Nikon stated that at high ISOs image quality should be one full stop better than the D810? I would expect the D850 to have image quality at least equal to the D810 at ISO 64. However, an improvement at high ISOs, say all ISOs above 400, would be much appreciated.

That's pretty much what I would expect - similar performance at base ISO (with a few extra MP) and improvement at high ISO to match the A9/D5/A7r2/1Dx2. It would be the most sensible area to improve ISO, given the 9fps/D5 AF capability, and BSI would deliver that. Rather like the A7r to A7r2 upgrade.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 27, 2017, 10:52:47 PM
BSI would deliver that
that (performance @ "high ISO") was delivered by DR-Pix not BSI ...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: hogloff on August 27, 2017, 10:57:34 PM
market share dynamics so far proves Canon right...

Yep...wonder what it costs Nikon to have their sensor manufacturing outsourced? I agree...Canon seems to continue to run well inspite of themselves. They've been gaining market share at Nikon's expense.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: shadowblade on August 27, 2017, 11:02:17 PM
market share dynamics so far proves Canon right...

Correlation does not imply causality. That Canon holds a market share advantage does not imply that it is due to keeping things in-house.

Canon got a huge head start in digital with CMOS and full-frame, then with the 5D and 5D2, causing people to buy into the system. This led to Canon taking the lion's share of the high-end market in the early days; this has slowly bled away as Nikon caught up and, in some areas, overtook Canon, but, due to the shelf life of lenses and the expense of changing systems, still hold the advantage (if not as large as it was previously).

It could just as easily have gone the other way - had Nikon been first off the ground with full-frame, CMOS and a camera competitive with MF film, they might be the market leqders now (and resting on their laurels) instead of Canon.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 27, 2017, 11:05:36 PM
that (performance @ "high ISO") was delivered by DR-Pix not BSI ...

They're not mutually exclusive. Sony uses BSI (and is currently the only company to use it). It's unlikely they won't have used both in this sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: hogloff on August 27, 2017, 11:07:02 PM
Correlation does not imply causality. That Canon holds a market share advantage does not imply that it is due to keeping things in-house.

Canon got a huge head start in digital with CMOS and full-frame, then with the 5D and 5D2, causing people to buy into the system. This led to Canon taking the lion's share of the high-end market in the early days; this has slowly bled away as Nikon caught up and, in some areas, overtook Canon, but, due to the shelf life of lenses and the expense of changing systems, still hold the advantage (if not as large as it was previously).

It could just as easily have gone the other way - had Nikon been first off the ground with full-frame, CMOS and a camera competitive with MF film, they might be the market leqders now (and resting on their laurels) instead of Canon.

Where are you getting your figures from. Nikon's market share has been going down for years now...sitting currently at less than 25%. Canon's share has stayed steady at around 50%. be interesting to see if this changes...but even Nikon's projections do not indicate much change to this trend.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: shadowblade on August 27, 2017, 11:26:55 PM
Where are you getting your figures from. Nikon's market share has been going down for years now...sitting currently at less than 25%. Canon's share has stayed steady at around 50%. be interesting to see if this changes...but even Nikon's projections do not indicate much change to this trend.

25% by what? Units sold (making no distinction between high end and low end)? Gross sales? Net profit on camera bodies? Net profit on bodies and lenses? You'll get different market share figures depending on which measure you look at. It's common knowledge that Canon had flooded the low end with Rebels and xxD bodies, while Nikon has been improving the top end. But the low end is a dying sector.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 27, 2017, 11:30:02 PM
just don't forget that Ph2Ph does not calculate per sensel PDR... so it is the same PDR assuming the ideal downsizing... and raw converters/post processing are not ideal math-wise once you start doing demosaicking and color transforms first.

Bill and I don't assume ideal downsizing for our PDR normalization. We assume standard downsizing. In tests that I've done, raw converters can do better than that by using smart noise reduction at high res.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: shadowblade on August 28, 2017, 12:10:31 AM
I continue to strongly dispute the proposition that it would be in the best interest of Sony not to sell their best sensors to Nikon. Very few of the sensors they would not sell in Nikon bodies would end up in Sony bodies. The cross selling btwn these 2 is much more limited than they seem to think. Sony would end up both losing an important income for their sensor division and also indirectly help strengthen the competitor Nikon would end up working with.

There's a big difference between making the best sensor Nikon can design for them, and selling them the best Sony-designed sensor, even before it makes it into a Sony camera. The former makes sense - if Sony didn't make it for them, someone else would, and they'd lose business. The latter would be a good way to squander your lead in sensor design and kill off your own camera division. They don't even sell their 42MP sensor at the moment (unlike the 36MP, it's not listed on their website as a commercially-available sensor). Companies which do not make cameras can sell off their best design; companies which do cannot afford to do so, unless they don't intend to compete in that sector anyway. Which probably explains why the D850 is a Nikon design made by Sony, rather than a pure Sony design.

Quote
The D850 sensor should indeed clearly put an end to this story... but it won't... because now they are coming up with the theory that 46mp isn't a high resolution sensor... and that the real best sensor of Sony will end up in these... ;)

It's not high-resolution because it's capable of 9fps.

If you can drive a 46MP sensor at 9fps, you can drive an 80MP sensor at 5fps. And Sony would have no difficulty making an 80MP sensor, since they make phone sensors which are even denser, and would have no problem making one for Nikon if Nikon had designed and requested one.

Clearly, the decision to make it 46MP rather than something higher was part of a tradeoff to allow it to shoot at 9fps (whether this tradeoff was voluntary or forced is another matter of little relevance here). If Nikon had wanted a resolution-focused design, they'd have gone with a high-resolution sensor with a slower frame rate. Certainly, Sony and Canon are both likely to do this with their 5Ds and A7r2 replacements (although I hope they also offer a mid-resolution, mid-high frame rate design like the D850). But, instead, they went for speed, and, as a result, used a sensor with a resolution that, while high compared with current cameras, is not as high as could otherwise have been used had they not also gone for 9fps.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 28, 2017, 03:37:08 AM
With Canon at 50mp and Nikon at 45mp I think the new Sony r camera will make a real jump.
I think we can expect more than 60mp.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 28, 2017, 03:44:52 AM
With Canon at 50mp and Nikon at 45mp I think the new Sony r camera will make a real jump.
I think we can expect more than 60mp.

Same with the 5D2's replacement.

Canon were at 50MP two years ago. They're not going to go backwards. And now they've got on-sensor A/D conversion, which will improve DR at the same time.

Only thing is, with a 60MP-plus sensor, neither the Canon or Sony will be fast. They will not be competitors with the D850, any more than the D5 or A9 are. Canon and Sony may release other models which will compete in the same space, but they are unlikely to be their highest-resolution studio/landscape cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 28, 2017, 03:55:25 AM
With Canon at 50mp and Nikon at 45mp I think the new Sony r camera will make a real jump.
I think we can expect more than 60mp.

Rumors were saying 70mp.

Now, the relevance of this needs to be assessed. There are very few wides that are able to resolve even 46mp well in my book. Even what may be the best wide available, the Nikon 19mm T/S may be challenged at that level of resolution. The situation of course differs for the latest tele lenses that have plenty of resolution.

As a result, for wide applications, stitching becomes a much better way to reach significant increases of real detail.

Another option is of course small MF such as the Fuji 23mm that will be fine at 100mp.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 28, 2017, 04:28:43 AM
Rumors were saying 70mp.

Now, the relevance of this needs to be assessed. There are very few wides that are able to resolve even 46mp well in my book. Even what may be the best wide available, the Nikon 19mm T/S may be challenged at that level of resolution. The situation of course differs for the latest tele lenses that have plenty of resolution.

As a result, for wide applications, stitching becomes a much better way to reach significant increases of real detail.

Another option is of course small MF such as the Fuji 23mm that will be fine at 100mp.

Cheers,
Bernard

Depends what you're trying to shoot and whether you care more about centre or corner sharpness, and wide-open or stopped down. Certainly, they can all handle it in the centre. The Canon 16-35 can also handle the corners at 50MP on the 5Ds, while the new Sony 12-24 and 16-35 can do so at 42MP on the A7r2. No doubt an updated Nikon 14-24 could do thr same at 46MP. Stopped down, they could probably make use of 60-80MP in the corners, and, when you're shooting a scene that needs to be sharp corner-to-corner, you're probably shooting stopped down.

The Nikon lens I'd like to see most for the D850 is actually an updated 200-400 f/4, with an inbuilt TC. Possibly even a 200-500 f/4, if they can do it without making it too heavy. It's overdue for an update and would show off the D850's unique capabilities like no other lens could.

Do you mean using a MF camera for wide shooting, or attaching a MF lens to a FF body? If it's the latter, MF lenses aren't actually all that sharp - less sharp than their FF equivalents. Just that they don't need to be as sharp, since they're normally being used on larger sensors with larger photosites.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: hogloff on August 28, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
25% by what? Units sold (making no distinction between high end and low end)? Gross sales? Net profit on camera bodies? Net profit on bodies and lenses? You'll get different market share figures depending on which measure you look at. It's common knowledge that Canon had flooded the low end with Rebels and xxD bodies, while Nikon has been improving the top end. But the low end is a dying sector.

Overall revenue ( $$$ ).
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: BJL on August 28, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
... I think we can can stop worrying that Nikon is hampered by having to settle fpr whatever second-best sensors that Sony puts in its catalog. Maybe at times Canon hampers itself by insisting too much on doing everything in-house,  it of course it could always drop that if it fell too far behind in sensor fab ability: Sony would love a huge customer like Canon.
In case anyone misunderstood, I am not coming down for either "in-house" or "outsource" as always being the best way. (It does seem to me that designing at least partially in-house in order to have unique offerings, and then out-sourcing fabrication wen that reduces costs, is often a good intermediate strategy.)

In-house might be most profitable in some cases, by adding profits to the company's manufacturing branch, but sometimes manufacturing costs are significantly lower for a very large, efficient out-sourcing fab. A fascinating case is Samsung: a huge electronics company that designs and produces Exynos processors for some of its phones, and yet outsources some processors from Qualcomm for other models. Also look at what has happened to CPUs for desktops, laptops and servers: outsourcing from Intel has become the dominant strategy.

And as others a have said, many factors can contribute to Canon's market success, so one cannot conclude that it is due specifically to its in-house approach to DSLR sensors. This only shows that designing and producing DLSR sensors entirely in-house is _one_ viable option.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scyth on August 28, 2017, 09:57:51 PM
Bill and I don't assume ideal downsizing for our PDR normalization. We assume standard downsizing.

OK

1) what is standard downsizing ?
2) what kind of demosaick and color transforms you apply before downsizing ?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 28, 2017, 11:56:49 PM
OK

1) what is standard downsizing ?
2) what kind of demosaick and color transforms you apply before downsizing ?

1) The more-or-less standard linear methods. Read this and the following posts to get a sense of the relationship between noise and detail with linear downsampling (there is a certain amount of devil in the details):

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/noise-reduction-and-downsampling/

2) Here's an example of the advantages of higher resolution sampling, and nonlinear noise reduction:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/noise-reduction-with-nonlinear-tools-and-downsampling/

And let me agree that the noise behavior that Bill and I assume is in a sense "ideal" for linear filtering, but you can do a lot better with nonlinear filtering followed by downsampling.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: davidgp on August 30, 2017, 04:50:07 AM

And, once again, these Nikon naysayers are very quickly forgetting that the Nikon orders pretty funded for many many years the development of the great sensor technology we see today in APS-C and FX bodies. I am fully aware that mobile phones were another key funding stream, but there is a difference between a mobile phone sensor and one for a DSLR.


Sorry for the late reply to this comment. I just wanted to clarify a point, there is no difference between making a mobile phone sensor or a full-frame one, it is exactly the same process. That it is due to the CMOS technology, the same one used to make nearly any chip inside any device, from cameras, to computers, to microwaves... well, there is one key difference, it is much cheaper to try new things in smaller sensors than big ones.

All CMOS technology it is build nowadays in wafers of pure Silicon (as pure as possible, any impurities can make a batch of sensors just a paperweight) of 300mm of diameter (some years ago they were using 200mm, and there was speculation of moving to 400mm for some years, but never happen). Each of these wafers can be used to build several sensors (or processors, or RAM memory...), if they chip chip is small, you can put more chips in the same wafer. This is done by a series of physical and chemical process... very precise one, since we are talking of few nanometres here for the precision of the process. Doing a quick search in Google, you can see here a wafer with several 35mm sensor chips: https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+sensor+wafer&rlz=1C1GGRV_esES752__752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRm5_8xf7VAhUQsBQKHQhBCpYQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=990#imgrc=POlZJr58ajWwhM:

Any impurity in the silicon in one of those chips, sensor to the waste, any error in the physical or chemical process for just impurity in the air, or the chemical, or whatever... chip to the waste... It is expected that not all the chips in a wafer work... the chip manufactures use what they call a yield rate, number of good chips / number of total chips in the wafer. They try to achive as close to 1 as possible. At the beginning of any technology introduction (new physical/chemical process... etc...) or new chip design, the yield rate tends to be low, it gets higher with the pass of time.

A way that the manufacturers have to get higher yield rates while trying new things, it is to do it with smaller chips, with smaller chips you have more chips per wafer, so even if 40% of the wafer produces bad chips, you still are getting enough chips to sell and compensate the costs... with bigger chips, maybe the majority are bad... and the good chips will be quite expensive. After fine tunning the process with smaller chips, you can feel confidente that you can scale up the technology to bigger chips.

New technologies that are comming to sensors in the lastest years, like Aptina-like amplifiers, BSI (both in the 850, A7r II), or stacked sensor (A9), first released in smartphones.

Here you have a nice paper of evolution of sensor technology: https://semiengineering.com/cmos-image-sensors-cis-past-present-future/
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: kers on August 30, 2017, 05:46:29 AM
...
Here you have a nice paper of evolution of sensor technology: https://semiengineering.com/cmos-image-sensors-cis-past-present-future/

Thank you David - very informative
PK
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on August 30, 2017, 06:04:19 AM
"New technologies that are comming to sensors in the lastest years, like Aptina-like amplifiers, BSI (both in the 850, A7r II), or stacked sensor (A9), first released in smartphones."

David!  Sorry for my unknowingness, but could you explain what a stacked sensor is?

Henrik
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 30, 2017, 07:47:39 AM
"New technologies that are comming to sensors in the lastest years, like Aptina-like amplifiers, BSI (both in the 850, A7r II), or stacked sensor (A9), first released in smartphones."

David!  Sorry for my unknowingness, but could you explain what a stacked sensor is?

Henrik

Here it explains it quite well: https://www.dpreview.com/news/5696183465/sony-shows-off-3-layer-stacked-smartphone-sensor-that-can-shoot-1000-fps-at-1080p

Basically they make a sandwitch: 1st layer: CMOS sensor (it could be BSI or normal one), 2nd layer DRAM, 3rd layer Processor logic. The idea is basically to copy quite fast all the data captured by the sensor to the memory. This makes reading the image quite fast, or much faster than a not stacked sensor. It is ideal for fast framerate (the A9 gets 20 fps full frame at 24 megapixels), also for video will be interesting, with faster reading, less rolling shutter.

Not sure about this, but since you are putting three components together: Sensor+memory+image processor, maybe noise due to heat could increase comparing with a normal sensor (again not sure)... but in this kind of technology it is always a trade off, depending in what the manufacturer wants to prioritize.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on August 30, 2017, 12:02:12 PM
FYI: 20 questions about D850 answered by two Nikon technicians: https://www.dpreview.com/news/6772782345/exclusive-nikon-answers-20-popular-questions-about-the-nikon-d850
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 31, 2017, 02:27:06 AM
FYI: 20 questions about D850 answered by two Nikon technicians: https://www.dpreview.com/news/6772782345/exclusive-nikon-answers-20-popular-questions-about-the-nikon-d850

Very comforting interview. Answers a lot of questions I was worrying about and makes this new D850 way more than just an update of the D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on August 31, 2017, 12:32:50 PM
Very comforting interview. Answers a lot of questions I was worrying about and makes this new D850 way more than just an update of the D810.

The D850 is to the D810 what the 5D3 was to the 5D2 - similar name, but a completely different kind of camera. Since the previous iteration, it's become slightly better at what its predecessor was good at (the D810 and 5D2 both being slow, resolution-focused cameras, and the D850 and 5D3 improving on the resolution and base-ISO IQ to a small degree), but a whole lot better at everything else.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Hans Kruse on September 01, 2017, 08:02:46 AM
I have made a preorder on the camera. The electronic shutter is for me a single reason to upgrade. The D810 EFCS implementation was so restrictive and annoying. EFCS is really essential for shooting landscapes in low light with 70-200 lens. So I look forward to the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 01, 2017, 08:11:01 AM
I have made a preorder on the camera. The electronic shutter is for me a single reason to upgrade. The D810 EFCS implementation was so restrictive and annoying. EFCS is really essential for shooting landscapes in low light with 70-200 lens. So I look forward to the D850.

Hans,

I believe that the implementation of the D850 is very similar, they have just gotten rid of the remaining bits of movement as far as I understand.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 01, 2017, 01:55:43 PM
I believe that diffraction will begin at large apertures for this kind of resolution in a 35mm sensor. Isn't that correct? Stopping down to a mild f11 will already be challenging, if you are planning to get the most out of the sensor.

A few relevant points to the above.

1) Diffraction is already apparent at wide f-stops with today's sensors and the best lenses. The Otus 85/1.4 shows a loss in central resolution on the a7RII when stopping down from f/2.8 to f/4.

2) Diffraction is one of the blur sources that is easiest to deal with using deconvolution sharpening.

3) Deconvolution sharpening works best when there are lots of samples.

4) False color and aliasing impede sharpening, so lots of samples are good there.

Jim

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Hans Kruse on September 01, 2017, 03:33:11 PM
Hans,

I believe that the implementation of the D850 is very similar, they have just gotten rid of the remaining bits of movement as far as I understand.

Cheers,
Bernard

You can shoot continous in live view so it is rather different from the D810 where you can only use EFCS in the MUP setting.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 01, 2017, 03:49:27 PM
You can shoot continous in live view so it is rather different from the D810 where you can only use EFCS in the MUP setting.

Great! At long last.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 01, 2017, 05:38:21 PM
Hi Jim,

My understanding of deconvolution sharpening is limited to say the least. When you refer to samples, are these samples taken by photographing specific targets at different apertures to create the necessary profiles for the deconvolution algorithm to work?

One more question, does any of the usual photo/RAW processing software (Lr, Ps, C1) are using this method currently, or is it only implemented in more "niche" type of software.

In this context, when I say "samples", think "pixels". Each pixel is a discrete sample of the image.

Lr does some deconvolution sharpening. Other tools such as Topaz afford more flexibility.

IMHO, at this stage in the evolution of digital photographic technology, more pixels are a good thing. Lots more pixels.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 01, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
Hi Jim,

My understanding of deconvolution sharpening is limited to say the least. When you refer to samples, are these samples taken by photographing specific targets at different apertures to create the necessary profiles for the deconvolution algorithm to work?

Hi Raul,

As Jim explained, more pixels, a denser sampling. Since the diffraction pattern at a given aperture has a fixed diameter, more pixels/samples allows getting it to be more accurately sampled. More samples will, therefore, allow to Deconvolve with better result. 

Quote
One more question, does any of the usual photo/RAW processing software (Lr, Ps, C1) are using this method currently, or is it only implemented in more "niche" type of software.

LR and ACR/PS use a quick and dirty deconvolution method (with the detail slider at higher values) that tends to produce lots of artifacts. C1 uses deconvolution with a "Diffraction Correction" checkbox that's quite effective for Capture sharpening of Raw files.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 01, 2017, 07:34:49 PM
Hi Raul,

As Jim explained, more pixels, a denser sampling. Since the diffraction pattern at a given aperture has a fixed diameter, more pixels/samples allows getting it to be more accurately sampled. More samples will, therefore, allow to Deconvolve with better result. 

LR and ACR/PS use a quick and dirty deconvolution method (with the detail slider at higher values) that tends to produce lots of artifacts. C1 uses deconvolution with a "Diffraction Correction" checkbox that's quite effective for Capture sharpening of Raw files.


Thanks for stepping in here, Bart. You are the expert on this.

jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: uaiomex on September 01, 2017, 11:46:31 PM
Hello BartvanderWolf:
With such credit as this one from someone like JK, I'll dare to ask you for some personalized advice.
I am about to be included as a participating photographer in a photo book about my city. I have several candidates including many shot with two A6000's, one converted to infrared.

The issue is that some these pictures were taken with lenses known to be sub-par in resolution like the Sony's 20mm pancake and the kit lens 16-50.
I was thinking on buying a deconvolution program to help these pictures get sharper.
In my list are Infocus, Focus Magic, Sharpen and Piccure.

Now, in your expertise, which program could be best for my goal? Will this help or will it be a waste of money?  Under $100 usd seems to me pretty acceptable if I can improve the apparent detail without artifacts that may be seen in the two-ink separation printing. The book size will be about 9X13".
Thanks so much in advanced Bart.
Best
Eduardo

 
Thanks for stepping in here, Bart. You are the expert on this.

jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 02, 2017, 07:53:58 AM
Counteracting diffraction is just one possible application of deconvolution.

With a lens profile, it can also improve a less-than-perfect lens. After all, if you know how a lens is unsharp in various parts of its image circle, you can mathematically compensate for it. It wouldn't be perfect, though, due to sample-to-sample variation. In a way, this would just be an extension of lens correction profiles already used for CA, distortion and vignetting. It wouldn't surprise me if some manufacturers (especially Sony, given their strength in electronics and weakness in optics) already use this approach in RAW conversion.

Also, it can be used to counteract camera motion. Just identify the pattern in which the camera was moved during the exposure (not to difficult on pixel analysis) then reverse that. Photoshop demonstrated it a few years ago, but I'm not sure if it's available in any software package at the moment.

For all of these, increased sampling gives more data to work with and a better result.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 02, 2017, 09:31:13 AM
Hello BartvanderWolf:
With such credit as this one from someone like JK, I'll dare to ask you for some personalized advice.
I am about to be included as a participating photographer in a photo book about my city. I have several candidates including many shot with two A6000's, one converted to infrared.

The issue is that some these pictures were taken with lenses known to be sub-par in resolution like the Sony's 20mm pancake and the kit lens 16-50.
I was thinking on buying a deconvolution program to help these pictures get sharper.
In my list are Infocus, Focus Magic, Sharpen and Piccure.

Now, in your expertise, which program could be best for my goal? Will this help or will it be a waste of money?  Under $100 usd seems to me pretty acceptable if I can improve the apparent detail without artifacts that may be seen in the two-ink separation printing. The book size will be about 9X13".
Thanks so much in advanced Bart.

Hi Eduardo,

IMHO, FocusMagic is the most stable performer (with good deconvolution and it doesn't exaggerate noise too much, although noisy images always create a trade-off) and it is relatively easy to use. It is a Photoshop plugin, but can also be used with a number of other applications that support PS plugins, so you're not going to be locked into a single application.

InFocus also does a good job on many occasions but is much more likely to generate artifacts. It, therefore, needs a gentle hand and more tweaking of its controls. Also, TopazLabs is now rolling out their new Studio suite, so I expect that significant development of the traditional InFocus plugin will likely stall, and there is not a full replacement of it (yet) in the Studio set of tools (although the traditional InFocus plugin can be called up from within Studio). Time will tell what the future will bring for Studio plugins, which are very much faster due to improved GPU aware architecture.

Piccure looks interesting (due to its spatially variant deconvolution) but still has me doubting to purchase it, not helped by its price tag. ColorManagement seems poorly implemented, last time I looked.

I'm not sure which "Sharpen" you are referring to, so I can't comment on that.

Overall, I think that money for FocusMagic is money well spent. It's my #1 Capture sharpener (also useful after resampling, both up and down), and on occasions it has also helped me save some blurred image detail (actually this week, when I shot some forensic type of IR shots, and I didn't quite nail the focus, despite using a correction for the longer wavelengths).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BJL on September 02, 2017, 07:03:07 PM
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/announcement-d850-dslr.page

After all this time, all of this waiting and expectation, what do we get? We get an announcement announcing the development of the Nikon D850, with no details.

. . .

Hopefully more details will be forthcoming.
As a footnote to this thread: it took just under one month to go from "Nikon is peddling evil vapor-ware by giving us partial information about a forthcoming product" to samples of that product getting into the hands of reviewers.

I will continue to say that if you do not like such early information, just ignore it. (As it is wise to do wth 99.9999% of what appears on the internet.) I see no advantage whatsoever to a company keeping a forthcoming product secret until it is ready to sell—except for the company itself, which can then keep selling the previous model at a price that customers will regret shortly aftterward when the new model is announced.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 03, 2017, 03:32:47 AM
Is there any information yet as to whether this sensor uses a three-layer stacked design?

Certainly, Sony would be capable of adding that to the sensor. But it would probably be superfluous for an SLR camera, which doesn't need a fast readout rate for an EVF or AF, except for live view and video. And I'm guessing a standard, two-layer BSI design would be simpler from a manufacturing and heat management perspective.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 03, 2017, 04:26:51 AM
Is there any information yet as to whether this sensor uses a three-layer stacked design?

Certainly, Sony would be capable of adding that to the sensor. But it would probably be superfluous for an SLR camera, which doesn't need a fast readout rate for an EVF or AF, except for live view and video. And I'm guessing a standard, two-layer BSI design would be simpler from a manufacturing and heat management perspective.

As far as I know, no evidence so far...

I will be surprised if it is a stacked design, the only reason to use it is to get better FPS, like the A9, or less rolling shutter in video, no benefits for DR or noise... seeing that the camera is doing around 9 fps, good enough at 45 megapixels, I will say it is the typical two layer design without the RAM layer in the middle...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: uaiomex on September 03, 2017, 10:30:57 PM
Thanks so much Bart for taking the time to answer. I will be re-reading your response until I buy the program (now for sure, lol).
By the way, you made it easy for me because FocusMagic was my strongest contender. The price is right and it looks simple to apply.
Best regards
Eduardo




Hi Eduardo,

IMHO, FocusMagic is the most stable performer (with good deconvolution and it doesn't exaggerate noise too much, although noisy images always create a trade-off) and it is relatively easy to use. It is a Photoshop plugin, but can also be used with a number of other applications that support PS plugins, so you're not going to be locked into a single application.

InFocus also does a good job on many occasions but is much more likely to generate artifacts. It, therefore, needs a gentle hand and more tweaking of its controls. Also, TopazLabs is now rolling out their new Studio suite, so I expect that significant development of the traditional InFocus plugin will likely stall, and there is not a full replacement of it (yet) in the Studio set of tools (although the traditional InFocus plugin can be called up from within Studio). Time will tell what the future will bring for Studio plugins, which are very much faster due to improved GPU aware architecture.

Piccure looks interesting (due to its spatially variant deconvolution) but still has me doubting to purchase it, not helped by its price tag. ColorManagement seems poorly implemented, last time I looked.

I'm not sure which "Sharpen" you are referring to, so I can't comment on that.

Overall, I think that money for FocusMagic is money well spent. It's my #1 Capture sharpener (also useful after resampling, both up and down), and on occasions it has also helped me save some blurred image detail (actually this week, when I shot some forensic type of IR shots, and I didn't quite nail the focus, despite using a correction for the longer wavelengths).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 04, 2017, 07:40:42 AM
Thanks so much Bart for taking the time to answer. I will be re-reading your response until I buy the program (now for sure, lol).
By the way, you made it easy for me because FocusMagic was my strongest contender. The price is right and it looks simple to apply.

You're welcome.

There is a trick to get the most (more resolution without artifacts) out of FocusMagic.

"Image source" set to Digital Camera or Forensic gives good results unless the image is very noisy, in that case another source setting may be required.
Click on image detail that represents the best focused area in the image, or that needs to be restored due to misfocus.
Then set the "Amount" to its maximum of 300% (don't worry it's only temporary).
Now gradually increase the "Blur Width" starting at 0.
There comes a moment where adding 1 to the Blur Width will suddenly not improve sharpness, but instead, it produces 'fatter' details and double contours. Back-off 1 on the Blur Width, and you've found the maximum Blur Width to use. Now set the Amount depending on how much you want to sharpen. Amount values between 100 and 175 are common with small Blur Width settings, maybe a bit more for larger Blur Width settings.

Sorry for being slightly off-topic, but with relatively small photosite pitch sensor arrays, the per pixel diffraction contribution will be more noticeable, and because it also offers better/denser data samples, it makes it a logical candidate for deconvolution Capture sharpening. With sensors that lack an Optical Low Pass Filter (OLPF), one needs to be careful and not over-sharpen the aliasing though. FocusMagic is just a pretty robust tool that doesn't require much tweaking, and it also does well on resampled images.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: uaiomex on September 05, 2017, 11:02:42 PM
Thanks Bart, appreciated all the way.
I already read and marked another thread here about deconvolution apps in which you gave this same advised. Interesting way to find the optimum setup.
One last thing before I buy FM: In this thread (if I recall well), it's said that Focus Magic works better for low frequency images and that Infocus might be better for high frequencies.
In my particular case in which I mainly want an app to help boost the capture resolution and the contrast of two lesser optics, which program would work better, FM or Infocus?
They cost the same actually. IF seems to be more complex but more versatile. While FM is simpler and proved to work tho not always.
TiA
Best
Eduardo

P.S. Sorry guys for being off main topic. I promise this is my last intervention.



You're welcome.

There is a trick to get the most (more resolution without artifacts) out of FocusMagic.

"Image source" set to Digital Camera or Forensic gives good results unless the image is very noisy, in that case another source setting may be required.
Click on image detail that represents the best focused area in the image, or that needs to be restored due to misfocus.
Then set the "Amount" to its maximum of 300% (don't worry it's only temporary).
Now gradually increase the "Blur Width" starting at 0.
There comes a moment where adding 1 to the Blur Width will suddenly not improve sharpness, but instead, it produces 'fatter' details and double contours. Back-off 1 on the Blur Width, and you've found the maximum Blur Width to use. Now set the Amount depending on how much you want to sharpen. Amount values between 100 and 175 are common with small Blur Width settings, maybe a bit more for larger Blur Width settings.

Sorry for being slightly off-topic, but with relatively small photosite pitch sensor arrays, the per pixel diffraction contribution will be more noticeable, and because it also offers better/denser data samples, it makes it a logical candidate for deconvolution Capture sharpening. With sensors that lack an Optical Low Pass Filter (OLPF), one needs to be careful and not over-sharpen the aliasing though. FocusMagic is just a pretty robust tool that doesn't require much tweaking, and it also does well on resampled images.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 06, 2017, 07:09:52 AM
Hi

Manual is on-line: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/359/D850.html , maybe it helps some people to clarify some doubts.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 06, 2017, 07:26:35 AM
One last thing before I buy FM: In this thread (if I recall well), it's said that Focus Magic works better for low frequency images and that Infocus might be better for high frequencies.
In my particular case in which I mainly want an app to help boost the capture resolution and the contrast of two lesser optics, which program would work better, FM or Infocus?

That's hard to predict, but the results will be very close anyway. Also remember that we're usually pixel peeping here, and it would be hard to see the differences at normal viewing distance. IF requires more work and tweaking because it quickly generates artifacts when too large a radius is used. FM requires very little work and still does a stellar job in most cases.

Capture sharpening usually has to deal mostly with reducing diffraction (mostly at apertures of f/4 or narrower, and predominantly at narrower than f/8), and to a lesser extent with lens aberrations and defocus. IF might be useful if a lot of manual work is done (when using IFs PSF Estimation, but it requires zooming in on detail with plenty of well-focused angles/edges to get a decent estimate and requires redoing it for each image), but for steady shots from tripod or or shots with Image Stabilization, I'd favor FM in 98% of the cases.

Over time, it might be that TopazLabs develop an improved (paid) version of a Sharpening Plugin specifically for its free "Studio" host progam, although their simple Sharpen plugin for Studio (currently at $19.99 or discounted as part of their Pro-Pack) already does a decent job without artifacts.

The Topaz plugins can be tried for a month, FM only allows to process and save 10 images.

FM might need an ADOBE application installed on your computer to install and unlock, so first install the demo and see if that works on your computer configuration. A purchased license number can then be filled in in the dialog with the same installed plugin.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: john beardsworth on September 06, 2017, 11:50:13 AM
Adobe just released an update to Camera Raw for the 850 http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2017/09/camera-raw-9-12-1-now-available.html
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2017, 06:00:04 PM
Nikon also updated Capture NX-D.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: uaiomex on September 06, 2017, 11:47:49 PM
Thank you Bart. Very dandy from you.
Eduardo

That's hard to predict, but the results will be very close anyway. Also remember that we're usually pixel peeping here, and it would be hard to see the differences at normal viewing distance. IF requires more work and tweaking because it quickly generates artifacts when too large a radius is used. FM requires very little work and still does a stellar job in most cases.

Capture sharpening usually has to deal mostly with reducing diffraction (mostly at apertures of f/4 or narrower, and predominantly at narrower than f/8), and to a lesser extent with lens aberrations and defocus. IF might be useful if a lot of manual work is done (when using IFs PSF Estimation, but it requires zooming in on detail with plenty of well-focused angles/edges to get a decent estimate and requires redoing it for each image), but for steady shots from tripod or or shots with Image Stabilization, I'd favor FM in 98% of the cases.

Over time, it might be that TopazLabs develop an improved (paid) version of a Sharpening Plugin specifically for its free "Studio" host progam, although their simple Sharpen plugin for Studio (currently at $19.99 or discounted as part of their Pro-Pack) already does a decent job without artifacts.

The Topaz plugins can be tried for a month, FM only allows to process and save 10 images.

FM might need an ADOBE application installed on your computer to install and unlock, so first install the demo and see if that works on your computer configuration. A purchased license number can then be filled in in the dialog with the same installed plugin.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
Post by: davidgp on September 07, 2017, 04:05:36 AM

This article describes the actual manufacturing steps for sensors: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/09/05/sony-kumamoto-sensor-factory-tour-a-rare-glimpse


Sorry for the late reply to this comment. I just wanted to clarify a point, there is no difference between making a mobile phone sensor or a full-frame one, it is exactly the same process. That it is due to the CMOS technology, the same one used to make nearly any chip inside any device, from cameras, to computers, to microwaves... well, there is one key difference, it is much cheaper to try new things in smaller sensors than big ones.

All CMOS technology it is build nowadays in wafers of pure Silicon (as pure as possible, any impurities can make a batch of sensors just a paperweight) of 300mm of diameter (some years ago they were using 200mm, and there was speculation of moving to 400mm for some years, but never happen). Each of these wafers can be used to build several sensors (or processors, or RAM memory...), if they chip chip is small, you can put more chips in the same wafer. This is done by a series of physical and chemical process... very precise one, since we are talking of few nanometres here for the precision of the process. Doing a quick search in Google, you can see here a wafer with several 35mm sensor chips: https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+sensor+wafer&rlz=1C1GGRV_esES752__752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRm5_8xf7VAhUQsBQKHQhBCpYQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=990#imgrc=POlZJr58ajWwhM:

Any impurity in the silicon in one of those chips, sensor to the waste, any error in the physical or chemical process for just impurity in the air, or the chemical, or whatever... chip to the waste... It is expected that not all the chips in a wafer work... the chip manufactures use what they call a yield rate, number of good chips / number of total chips in the wafer. They try to achive as close to 1 as possible. At the beginning of any technology introduction (new physical/chemical process... etc...) or new chip design, the yield rate tends to be low, it gets higher with the pass of time.

A way that the manufacturers have to get higher yield rates while trying new things, it is to do it with smaller chips, with smaller chips you have more chips per wafer, so even if 40% of the wafer produces bad chips, you still are getting enough chips to sell and compensate the costs... with bigger chips, maybe the majority are bad... and the good chips will be quite expensive. After fine tunning the process with smaller chips, you can feel confidente that you can scale up the technology to bigger chips.

New technologies that are comming to sensors in the lastest years, like Aptina-like amplifiers, BSI (both in the 850, A7r II), or stacked sensor (A9), first released in smartphones.

Here you have a nice paper of evolution of sensor technology: https://semiengineering.com/cmos-image-sensors-cis-past-present-future/
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
It looks like my D850 has shipped... It should be here tomorrow. ;)

If the stars line up as I hope they will, I should be able to put it to good use this coming weekend for a nice mountain trip. The Leica 180mm f2.8 APO is shaking on the shelves out of excitement.  ;D

And it looks like my trusted D810 is about to find a new home also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on September 07, 2017, 09:59:45 AM
It looks like my D850 has shipped... It should be here tomorrow. ;)

If the stars line up as I hope they will, I should be able to put it to good use this coming weekend for a nice mountain trip. The Leica 180mm f2.8 APO is shaking on the shelves out of excitement.  ;D

And it looks like my trusted D810 is about to find a new home also.

Cheers,
Bernard

Please do some comparisons before your D810 finds a new home, Bernard, and post them here. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 07, 2017, 10:07:09 AM
From the manual i already found out that the splitscreen-improvement is hardly any better...

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2017, 10:58:04 AM
Please do some comparisons before your D810 finds a new home, Bernard, and post them here.

That will probably not be possible logistically I am afraid.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 09, 2017, 03:49:55 AM
Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955
Title: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 09, 2017, 04:45:32 AM
Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955

No, they say nothing about the sensor, they say that the Processor, CPU was manufactured by Toshiba. They didn't teardown the sensor unit... and even if they do so... it will probably need an x-ray study like a company as Chipworks to determine the manufacturer

 https://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-i-nikon-vs-sony (this is a bit old study... )

As far as I remember, Toshiba, that it is not doing very well economically, sold their sensor division to Sony... and it is in the process to sell its SSD/memory division... although this selling it is a bit complicated since the Japan government wants to sell the unit to another Japan company and the only ones bidding are from USA and China...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 09, 2017, 07:32:14 AM
I read that from the teardown report the shutter seems to be made more durable, however if i am correct it is supposed to work 200.000 shots vs 300.000 shots for the D810.
( as Nikon pointed out if you use the silent mode no shutter/mirror mechanism is used making it lasting longer)

Imaging Recource has a nice serie of D850 Nefs online.
I just printed in NXD developed parts at 150 dpi - so that means 139cm wide.
The results are very good. 64 asa is noiseless and 3200 asa can be used even without noise reduction.
With noise reduction even asa 128.000 is useful - colors hold up .
in certain occasions 256.000 asa is not that bad either.
the only problem is you use high asa values in tungsten light more often than in daylight so this is not a complete picture.
NXD does a good job
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 09, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2 (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2)

As I was saying re: DR performance.

No better at base ISO (the A7r still has the same DR at ISO 100 as the D850 does at ISO 64), improved at mid-ISOs. Beats or equals the D5 up until ISO 2000, and doesn't embarrass itself beyond that either.

So, for landscapes, it's basically a D810 with slightly higher resolution, while, for action, it's a whole lot better (given the AF and frame rate improvements), with as much DR as the D5 for most of the common action ISO range (shooting at ISO 6400-12800 isn't the norm for most action photography).

It does open up a gap for Sony, though. The A7r2 still beats it throughout the mid-ISO range - I'm not sure if DR-Pix was implemented in the same way, if at all, in the D850. An updated sensor, around 50MP and with the 3-layer stacked design of the A9's sensor, would likely beat the D850 throughout that critical ISO 400-6400 range.  Put it into third line of cameras - between the high-resolution/slow line and the low-resolution/fast A9 line, with the A9's AF system and 8-10fps, and it would make for a Nikon-beating action/general-purpose camera, just in time to launch some E-mount superteles. Canon could potentially do the same, but they are less likely to try.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 10, 2017, 03:36:28 AM
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2 (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2)

As I was saying re: DR performance.

No better at base ISO (the A7r still has the same DR at ISO 100 as the D850 does at ISO 64), improved at mid-ISOs. Beats or equals the D5 up until ISO 2000, and doesn't embarrass itself beyond that either.

So, for landscapes, it's basically a D810 with slightly higher resolution, while, for action, it's a whole lot better (given the AF and frame rate improvements), with as much DR as the D5 for most of the common action ISO range (shooting at ISO 6400-12800 isn't the norm for most action photography).

It does open up a gap for Sony, though. The A7r2 still beats it throughout the mid-ISO range - I'm not sure if DR-Pix was implemented in the same way, if at all, in the D850. An updated sensor, around 50MP and with the 3-layer stacked design of the A9's sensor, would likely beat the D850 throughout that critical ISO 400-6400 range.  Put it into third line of cameras - between the high-resolution/slow line and the low-resolution/fast A9 line, with the A9's AF system and 8-10fps, and it would make for a Nikon-beating action/general-purpose camera, just in time to launch some E-mount superteles. Canon could potentially do the same, but they are less likely to try.


Stacked sensor does not add anything to DR, it is only for speed... that will be interested for Sony if they want to reach 10fps with a 50MPx sensor...

I think the D850 it really has an aptina like amplifier... you see a jump in DR around 400 ISO... but it looks like it does not have a second phase like the A7r II.

Anyway, it confirms what Nikon already said, same DR as the D810 and better high ISO. Together with the improve in AF... it is a very complete camera... I would buy it blindly if I had any Nikon glass...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 10, 2017, 03:46:40 AM
Apart from the numbers i can already see the images have more clarity than the d810 ones
At base iso it is absolutely noiseless even in the blacks.
There is less color noise in the high iso and it lacks white spots that come in with the d810 sensor at high iso's
So yes, image quality has improved over the d810. Together with the other improvements it is a worthy upgrade.

edit
Printing an A4 shows that with some noise reduction and increased saturation @ 256.000 asa you still have a very good print.
(who needs MF?)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 10, 2017, 05:33:31 AM

Stacked sensor does not add anything to DR, it is only for speed... that will be interested for Sony if they want to reach 10fps with a 50MPx sensor...

I think the D850 it really has an aptina like amplifier... you see a jump in DR around 400 ISO... but it looks like it does not have a second phase like the A7r II.

Anyway, it confirms what Nikon already said, same DR as the D810 and better high ISO. Together with the improve in AF... it is a very complete camera... I would buy it blindly if I had any Nikon glass...


http://dgpfotografia.com

Are you talking about RAW or JPEG files? No doubt they would have improved their noise reduction. But the numbers show that the SNR at base ISO is no greater than with the D810.

Stacked sensor is necessary to match the D850 and make it work for action. A 50MP, slow-shooting, slow-focusing body with EVF lag isn't going to attract anyone.

If Sony can give it the A9 AF system and 8-10fps while retaining a mid-ISO DR edge, they'd have a very competitive action/general-purpose camera that's much more generally useful than the A9's 24MP/20fps.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 10, 2017, 07:19:01 AM
Everything is possible but these theoretical cameras have one major issue... they can't take pictures.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 10, 2017, 07:31:58 AM

Stacked sensor is necessary to match the D850 and make it work for action. A 50MP, slow-shooting, slow-focusing body with EVF lag isn't going to attract anyone.

If Sony can give it the A9 AF system and 8-10fps while retaining a mid-ISO DR edge, they'd have a very competitive action/general-purpose camera that's much more generally useful than the A9's 24MP/20fps.

Right, I haven't thought about the EVF...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 10, 2017, 07:39:36 AM
Apart from the numbers i can already see the images have more clarity than the d810 ones
At base iso it is absolutely noiseless even in the blacks.
There is less color noise in the high iso and it lacks white spots that come in with the d810 sensor at high iso's
So yes, image quality has improved over the d810. Together with the other improvements it is a worthy upgrade.

edit
Printing an A4 shows that with some noise reduction and increased saturation @ 256.000 asa you still have a very good print.
(who needs MF?)

Yes, BSI together with the Aptina-like amps will make the images much cleaner than d810


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 10, 2017, 07:52:08 AM
Everything is possible but these theoretical cameras have one major issue... they can't take pictures.

Cheers,
Bernard

And, in five years' time, your $50k lens collection won't have a body available that can focus them with the same speed and accuracy, and, as manual-focus, adapter-only lenses, will likely have minimal value and functionality.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 10, 2017, 08:31:57 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4433/37141584835_4d67eee52e_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4434/37141584435_8c8cba0036_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4351/36970322362_ed7a7f0990_o.jpg)
D850 + Leica 180mm f2.8 APO

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on September 10, 2017, 10:15:18 AM
Hi Bernard

Thanks for the report

Glad to see the white dot issue seems under control. Have tried any long exposure 30 second to 2 minutes with LEN off to see if they show any dots? 

Thanks
Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on September 10, 2017, 04:41:06 PM
Hi Bernard!

Glad to see you have it allready!
How good is the silent/vibrationfree shutter?

Henrik
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on September 10, 2017, 08:55:37 PM
Congratulations, Bernard. It's exciting to get a new camera with significantly better features, isn't it!  ;)

I recall when I got my first full-frame DSLR, the Canon 5D. I was so excited I decided to visit Nepal again to do some trekking, for the first time in 40 years. During my first visit I had a Pentax Spotmatic; during the second visit a Canon 5D. What a difference!

However, to get things in perspective, I don't see much difference in basic image quality between the D850 and D810. From the comparison images I've seen so far, my impression is that the D850 has very marginally better resolution, and very marginally lower noise at high ISO. I was hoping that image quality would be significantly better at high ISO, but I've seen no evidence of this so far.

Any improvement is better than none. However, it's the other features which are the main attraction of the D850, such as higher frame rate, more accurate focusing (hopefully) and 4K video in particular (for me).

I've never bothered much with the HD video capability of my DSLRs, but 4K video capability could inspire me to begin using the video feature and start experimenting with time-lapse video. Eventually, I expect I'll buy a 4K OLED TV, when the really large screens become more affordable.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 10, 2017, 11:27:02 PM
Is the base ISO noise performance similar, or improved, once you turn all noise reduction off? Certainly the noise will be more fine-grained, which is always an improvement, but the SNR chart suggests a similar absolute amount of noise. I have no doubt the jpegs will be improved, due to better NR algorithms.

How does the AF compare to the D5 and D500?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 10, 2017, 11:48:16 PM
Is the base ISO noise performance similar, or improved, once you turn all noise reduction off? Certainly the noise will be more fine-grained, which is always an improvement, but the SNR chart suggests a similar absolute amount of noise. I have no doubt the jpegs will be improved, due to better NR algorithms.

How does the AF compare to the D5 and D500?

I see no noise at ISO64 using the beta version of a raw developer I am not allowded to speak about (all noise reduction set to zero). I am sure there is some in the deep shadows but I have not faced an image this time around where I had to do an important amount of shadow lifting.

I used the camera to take photographs, not to perform any technical test.

Sorry, I have not yet mounted an AF lens on the D850 so I cannot comment about its AF performance relative to the D5 that I use also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 10, 2017, 11:50:45 PM
Hi Bernard!

Glad to see you have it allready!
How good is the silent/vibrationfree shutter?

Totally silent indeed. Seems to work well.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 11, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4337/36766816540_e0e9cd38a5_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4366/36993154582_80b0d3ed12_o.jpg)
D850 + Leica 180mm f2.8 APO on pano stitch

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: muntanela on September 11, 2017, 07:57:13 PM
But the real star is the Elmarit 180 apo, the D850 is only its humble servant.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 11, 2017, 09:18:56 PM
But the real star is the Elmarit 180 apo, the D850 is only its humble servant.

Yep, best medium tele lens money can buy for distant subjects. As close as there is to the perfect lens.

Could easily take 100mp at f5.6 where these images were shot.

Besides it is pretty light weight and compact, really perfect for trekking.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 12, 2017, 03:33:33 AM
D850 against other cameras in the market (pure sensor output quality at base ISO and ISO6400): http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM#IQC-LP
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on September 12, 2017, 05:41:14 AM
D850 against other cameras in the market (pure sensor output quality at base ISO and ISO6400): http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d850/nikon-d850A.HTM#IQC-LP

Thanks for the link, David. I've downloaded the full-rez images at ISO 6400.

However, I'm not sure the comparisons are valid. The exposures are different and possibly the ISO sensitivities are different.

The D850 shot is at 1/1000th sec at F8 using a 60mm lens. The D810 shot is with a 70 mm lens at F8 and 1/1250th sec exposure.
In the D850 shot, the circular 'proportional scale' at the top of the 100% crop is much whiter. One would expect the shadows to be better, as they are.

Also, if these are out-of-camera jpeg images, then the results are not relevant for those who shoot RAW.

Beware that the position of the shots has changed in the following attachments of 100% crops. The D850 in the 'raised shadows' image is on the left, whereas, in the other shot the D850 is on the right.

The shadows have been raised to the same degree for both images, moving the middle slider in 'Levels' to 3.5.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on September 12, 2017, 08:57:53 AM
Dpreview has posted their comparison via their tool. 

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/6 (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/6)

Take some time and run through the comparisons.  What appears to me is that the D810 and D850 are very close pretty much all the way across the tests.  Base ISO 64 pushed to 6 stops (test for ISO invariance) and then ISO 4000.  The D850 shows less red magenta color cast in the shadows in the push tests, but the 2 cameras are considerable closer than I expected. 

Base ISO 64 seems very close also between the two cameras.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on September 13, 2017, 12:34:01 AM
Dpreview has posted their comparison via their tool. 

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/6 (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/6)

Take some time and run through the comparisons.  What appears to me is that the D810 and D850 are very close pretty much all the way across the tests.  Base ISO 64 pushed to 6 stops (test for ISO invariance) and then ISO 4000.  The D850 shows less red magenta color cast in the shadows in the push tests, but the 2 cameras are considerable closer than I expected. 

Base ISO 64 seems very close also between the two cameras.

Paul Caldwell

Thanks for the link, Peter. I've downloaded the latest ACR update and converted the D850 and D810 RAW images at ISO 6400, to compare.

I was hoping that the D850 would show an improvement at high ISO, but I see no improvement at ISO 6400. It's widely known that Canon DSLRs are greatly lacking in DR at base ISO, compared with Nikon. However, at high ISOs the Canon DSLRs are as good as or better than the equivalent Nikon cameras.
In fact, according to DXOMark, the DR of the Canon 5D MkIV is around 3/4ths of an EV better than the D810 at ISOs of 1600 and above.  0.75 EV, or even 2/3rds of an EV in DR, is a worthwhile improvement. I was hoping that the DR of the D850 would at least equal the DR of the 5D MkIV. Apparently it doesn't.

In the following 100% crops, the D850 on the left of each image, I've exaggerated the sharpening, without using noise reduction, in order to highlight any differences in noise and resolution. The same settings were used for each image of course.

The D850 shot has been downsized to the D810 size, because it's only sensible to compare equal size images. I see no significant difference in noise or resolution.  :(

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 13, 2017, 05:05:43 AM
...
In the D850 shot, the circular 'proportional scale' at the top of the 100% crop is much whiter. ..

I have read they had to replace that scale for a new one because it turned yellow...
-
+ i do believe the d850 has better high iso-
what i see:
it is the first time colors hold up unto 128000 asa and it works better in combination with noise reduction.
But i need to know what it does in tungsten light for that is where i use these extreme asa's and somehow they never test that.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Paul2660 on September 13, 2017, 10:34:00 AM
The differences are IMO small, but there.  The colors do seem a bit better at 6400 and above, not that I spend much time there, however it may lend itself to astrowork.

The other area that is quite clear is the magenta color you tend to see in almost all Sony CMOS chips when pushed up to 5000 and above.  The 6 stop push from 64 on the D850 does not show it, where as same push on the D810 or GFX Fuji both show it. 

Not sure if this is due to in camera jpg processing (as I am not sure if Dpreview is using in camera conversion or raw/ACR, or Nikon software).  But in the samples the D850 does not get red when pushed.

Other interesting thing is that Dpreview seems to feel that you are better not pushing ISO 64, for shadows, but instead moving to ISO 100 and watching for highlights.  Their claim is neither D810 or D850 are ISO invariant at base of 64 bot seem to approach it from 100 up.  Similar I guess to the D500.

But the other improvements Nikon has added make this a worthy upgrade from the D810, the tilting LCD alone for me. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: wallpaperviking on September 13, 2017, 04:25:05 PM
Hi Bernard,
                 Congrats on the new purchase! 

Am thinking of getting one myself and was hoping you may answer one question for me? 

I have used the D810 previously and love the fact that it has a 5:4 aspect ratio (presented as a semi opaque mask in the OVF).  I see that they have also included this in the D850, as well as a 1:1 it seems.

Just wondering if this option presents you with the cropped 5:4 Raw image (as the D810) did, or presents you with the full sensor capture (3:2) and provides "crop lines" in post processing software? 

This is what my Fuji GFX does and it has come in handy a few times where there is something just outside the frame that I did not originally "visualise".

Thanks so much in advance, much appreciated :)

P.S  Any comments on autofocus speed would also be appreciated but I am sure you will get to that anyway at some point.. Thanks again.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on September 13, 2017, 06:17:44 PM
The other area that is quite clear is the magenta color you tend to see in almost all Sony CMOS chips when pushed up to 5000 and above.  The 6 stop push from 64 on the D850 does not show it, where as same push on the D810 or GFX Fuji both show it. 

Not sure if this is due to in camera jpg processing (as I am not sure if Dpreview is using in camera conversion or raw/ACR, or Nikon software).  But in the samples the D850 does not get red when pushed.

I have a feeling most magenta or green casts produced when strongly pushing the shadows are RAW development related, i.e. software. The black point substraction has to be very accurate since at such low levels data linearity is very sensitive to this parameter.

If the black offset substracted is lower than ideal you get magenta cast and contrast loss (washed image). If it is higher you get green cast and fake contrast gain because of black clipping:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/offsetko.png)

Using the right value:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/offsetok.png)

Those were Canon 6D II ISO100 samples when lifting the shadows BTW.

Regards


Enviado desde mi ALE-L21 mediante Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 14, 2017, 11:21:41 PM
On nikon and Sony's sensor relationship.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-sensor-battles-continue.html

As usual, Thom is spot on, informed and objective.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2017, 02:54:29 AM
On nikon and Sony's sensor relationship.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-sensor-battles-continue.html

As usual, Thom is spot on, informed and objective.

Cheers,
Bernard


Well, I read the the article and i have read some days ago the interview DPReview published about Sony sensor manufacturing... and I have to say, Thom is not objective, he disregards DPReview view, the ones that were talking directly with the Sony executives because it does not fit his view...

He is also implying that Nikon will bring dual pixel AF to Sony because Nikon has patents about it, but he choose to ignore several patents Sony already have in the market about that topic...
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-patented-dual-pixel-sensor-similar-canon-version/

He is also in this believe that male a full frame sensor is more difficult than making a mobile phone one, the only difference it is that the yield rate is lower, so the sensors are more expensive, the manufacturing lines, are exactly the same ones for both sensors, they just cut in smaller pieces the wafers...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/09/05/sony-kumamoto-sensor-factory-tour-a-rare-glimpse




http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2017, 03:18:03 AM
Well, I read the the article and i have read some days ago the interview DPReview published about Sony sensor manufacturing... and I have to say, Thom is not objective, he disregards DPReview view, the ones that were talking directly with the Sony executives because it does not fit his view...

If you read the article of Thom, it is clear that DPreview was NOT told by Sony that the non usage of the a7RII sensor in another camera was the result of the sensor not being available for other companies to purchase.

Frankly, only Pentax and Nikon could have used it and it didn't fit the developement schedule for Pentax and didn't fit the target specs of the D850 in terms of speed.

So there is no need to add a conspiracy theory to explain why nobody but Sony used that sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2017, 03:23:21 AM
Ok, I forgot to mention before. This is a nice article about the evolution of on-sensor AF: http://techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/blog/survey-of-enabling-technologies-in-successful-consumer-digital-imaging-products/

If you read about dual-pixel AF (section D), you will see that Sony already manufacturer sensors like that for Samsung (they never released for their cameras, so maybe there is an agreement with Samsung).

The article also mentions Dual PDAF, they say it fixes part of the problems of Dual Pixel AF and typical Masked Phase Detect AF over sensor... but it does not enter in the details, in theory it is what the iPhone 7 sensor has, this article talks about how the Dual PDAF works (I believe), but I didn't understood it very well: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past%20Workshops/2015%20Workshop/2015%20Papers/Sessions/Session_1/1-04_Yokogawa_033.pdf
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2017, 03:40:19 AM
If you read the article of Thom, it is clear that DPreview was NOT told by Sony that the non usage of the a7RII sensor in another camera was the result of the sensor not being available for other companies to purchase.

Frankly, only Pentax and Nikon could have used it and it didn't fit the developement schedule for Pentax and didn't fit the target specs of the D850 in terms of speed.

So there is no need to add a conspiracy theory to explain why nobody but Sony used that sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe, but the rest of Thom article is talking non-sense about Dual Pixel AF and the exclusivity that Nikon and Canon has about it... when it is not true... It is clear that Thom wants to leave Nikon on the top of sensor manufacturing... he just picks notes here and there for it... so, saying his article is objective... well...
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2017, 04:55:05 AM
Maybe, but the rest of Thom article is talking non-sense about Dual Pixel AF and the exclusivity that Nikon and Canon has about it... when it is not true... It is clear that Thom wants to leave Nikon on the top of sensor manufacturing... he just picks notes here and there for it... so, saying his article is objective... well...

No intention to argue with you really, but you may want to re-read it.

He is just brainstorming about what Nikon may want to use as sensor sources moving forward and is only mentioning rumors about upcoming mirrorless acknowledging these are rumors.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2017, 05:11:39 AM
No intention to argue with you really, but you may want to re-read it.

He is just brainstorming about what Nikon may want to use as sensor sources moving forward and is only mentioning rumors about upcoming mirrorless acknowledging these are rumors.

Cheers,
Bernard

I know that we are not going to agree... I read the article several times and I still think the article is not objective trying to imply Nikon has some advantage in mirrorless sensors with respect Sony.

I, for a long time, even if other members of this forum more Sony fanboys don't agree with me, think Sony is not holding its sensor technology to create an advantage with respect other manufacturers such as Fuji or Nikon...

But yes, seeing that we are not going to agree with Thom opinion, we can give stop here :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2017, 06:03:22 AM
But yes, seeing that we are not going to agree with Thom opinion, we can give stop here :)

Sounds good... this isn't a big deal and we'll see soon enough. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2017, 06:40:00 AM
Sounds good... this isn't a big deal and we'll see soon enough. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Indeed :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 17, 2017, 08:21:53 PM
What I'd really like and hope to see is a comparison of sensors formats.

That is a wide open portrait with a D850 and an 85mm Otus and a Hasselblad 100c with a wide open 100 2.2

It's with a comparison like that will test the differences of the sensor size, one that will show gradation of focus etc.

Are you able to oblige Bernard? Pretty pleeeease :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 17, 2017, 10:54:57 PM
Unfortunately I won't be able to since I sold my Otus 85mm in favor of the Nikon 105mm f1.4... Not 100% as good at f1.4 but very very close and the hit rate with the D5/D850 AF is much higher even on static subjects.

But I could do the Otus 55mm f1.4 that is anyway a bit closer in terms of corresponding focal length I guess.

But there is no doubt that the Otus at f1.4 is better optically. I guess that the result will be real close in absolute terms wide open. The blad will show its value at f4 or f5.6.

If my daughter cooperates I may be able to try that soon.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2017, 07:50:50 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/37302503855_6c66aa5933_o.jpg)
D850 + 19mm f4 T/S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on September 18, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
What do you think of the 850 so far?
Is the elecronic shutter working well to reduce vibrations?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2017, 10:23:50 AM
What do you think of the 850 so far?
Is the elecronic shutter working well to reduce vibrations?

well... for some strange reason my release cable doesn't work consistently with the D850 so I am having a hard time providing a clear answer to this question... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 18, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
well... for some strange reason my release cable doesn't work consistently with the D850 so I am having a hard time providing a clear answer to this question... ;)


Is the D850 connector the same as the D810? Does the D850 have self-timer and and shutter delay modes like the D810 that you could use to finesse this?

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 18, 2017, 11:27:21 PM
Got a notice today that B&H has shipped my D850. A very long wait for a new camera from when I first ordered the Hasselblad X1D in June (I believe) of 2016. And now for the moment of truth: will I like it?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2017, 11:28:49 PM
Is the D850 connector the same as the D810? Does the D850 have self-timer and and shutter delay modes like the D810 that you could use to finesse this?

Hi Jim,

Yes, the connector is the same. I have not yet looked into the self-time aspect in detais, but I got the feeling the capability was the same as that of the D810.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 19, 2017, 03:38:17 PM
Unfortunately I won't be able to since I sold my Otus 85mm in favor of the Nikon 105mm f1.4... Not 100% as good at f1.4 but very very close and the hit rate with the D5/D850 AF is much higher even on static subjects.

But I could do the Otus 55mm f1.4 that is anyway a bit closer in terms of corresponding focal length I guess.

But there is no doubt that the Otus at f1.4 is better optically. I guess that the result will be real close in absolute terms wide open. The blad will show its value at f4 or f5.6.

If my daughter cooperates I may be able to try that soon.

Cheers,
Bernard

Thanks Bernard, that would be really amazing. You are a diamond.

What I'm trying to determine is more about image aesthetics between small and large sensors. Focus and tonal transitions etc.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 19, 2017, 07:41:37 PM
Thanks Bernard, that would be really amazing. You are a diamond.

What I'm trying to determine is more about image aesthetics between small and large sensors. Focus and tonal transitions etc.

I'll be away 10 days, it looks like it may be difficult to complete this before I go, will try after I return.

By then the D850 should be supported by LR, which will make it a more fair comparison.

As much as I love the D850 files, I believe that the H6D-100c will be even better tone and color wise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 20, 2017, 04:59:20 PM
It’s been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I received my copy today and have only had a couple of hours of time in on it. There may be some deep-dark flaw, but I have not seen it yet. Some of our techsperts will have to check that out. My initial impressions, so far, are:

(1) The ISO 64 seems to be there.

(2) The extra Mpx are definitely worth it. Very much a difference that counts.

(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus.

(4) The sharpness of older lenses like the photo here taken with the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar push this lens to a higher state of us. The camera makes sharpness... sharper, IMO.

(5) The color on the LiveView screen looks different than the D810, but the end result (color-wise) is excellent. No complaints.

I don’t use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but I’m working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in the Nikon F-mount. If I have a single doubt, and I am not done checking this out, the highlights may clip... slightly more easily than the D810, but I will wait for gear guys to test this.

So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 21, 2017, 12:32:47 AM
Nice image Michael, thanks for sharing and congatulations for your new tool.

It is always nice to see that cameras are being put to good use along their intended purpose away from the theoretical negative discussions about brand future. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 21, 2017, 05:23:52 AM
...
(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus....

hello Micheal- very nice photo indeed...

about focussing with live view- maybe it is more difficult because you see the that lens sharpness is not all that absolute IOW the liveview images shows a good image.

- i am curious to see if you like the 6fps silent focusstacking option on the d850.
I know you do not have so many AF lenses but maybe one...
I think that could make focusstacking a whole lot more pleasant and less time consuming. + sharper for you do not need to touch the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 21, 2017, 08:16:52 AM
It is always nice to see that cameras are being put to good use along their intended purpose away from the theoretical negative discussions about brand future.

It's no longer theoretical when it's your lens collection on the line. How useful were Canon FD lenses, and how much were they worth, once Canon stopped making FD bodies? If you wanted to switch, you'd have had to buy a whole new system, while selling your old lenses for very little.

Current thoughts on Nikonrumors suggest that Nikon is working on an adapter, rather like the Sony A-to-E adapter, which suggests that the mirrorless camera won't use the F-mount, or at least not with the same flange distance. Looking at both the Canon EF-to-EFM and Sony A-to-E adapters, lens performance using adapted lenses is far poorer than performance using native mirrorless lenses designed for the system. There's no reason to think a Nikon adapter would be any different - for good performance, you'd need to switch your lens collection to Nikon mirrorless lenses.

If you get the Sony mirrorless system now, you'd still be able to sell them for nearly full price if Nikon or Canon bring out a better mirrorless line - FE would still be a current, well-supported lens mount. Conversely, if you bought into the current EF or F-mount now, you could almost guarantee that you'd be stuck using them via an adapter, or with greatly reduced performance, in a few years' time, and the lenses would have little resale value should you want to update to new, mirrorless lenses from Canon or Nikon.

I don't care about the future of Nikon, Sony, Canon or any other company. I care about the future viability of my equipment. And having to replace it all in a few years' time in order to maintain good performance, while losing most of the resale value, doesn't qualify as 'viable'.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 21, 2017, 09:04:27 AM
Shadowblade,

I am really not sure why you feel the urge to defend you purchasing strategy again and again. Your point has been made 10 times already, anyone with an IQ above 40 should have understood by now.

On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

Why not just accept the fact that we have different needs, are in a different context and are just trying to maximize the technical quality of our work by staying close to the cutting edge of technology without that much interest in the integral of the money we will have to spend in the process?

The fact that Sony will be better in 2 years is totally irrelevant to my photography today. It does impact the economical aspect for sure, but this extra cost is affordable to me at the moment.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: John Cothron on September 21, 2017, 09:37:13 AM
It's no longer theoretical when it's your lens collection on the line. How useful were Canon FD lenses, and how much were they worth, once Canon stopped making FD bodies? If you wanted to switch, you'd have had to buy a whole new system, while selling your old lenses for very little.

Current thoughts on Nikonrumors suggest that Nikon is working on an adapter, rather like the Sony A-to-E adapter, which suggests that the mirrorless camera won't use the F-mount, or at least not with the same flange distance. Looking at both the Canon EF-to-EFM and Sony A-to-E adapters, lens performance using adapted lenses is far poorer than performance using native mirrorless lenses designed for the system. There's no reason to think a Nikon adapter would be any different - for good performance, you'd need to switch your lens collection to Nikon mirrorless lenses.

If you get the Sony mirrorless system now, you'd still be able to sell them for nearly full price if Nikon or Canon bring out a better mirrorless line - FE would still be a current, well-supported lens mount. Conversely, if you bought into the current EF or F-mount now, you could almost guarantee that you'd be stuck using them via an adapter, or with greatly reduced performance, in a few years' time, and the lenses would have little resale value should you want to update to new, mirrorless lenses from Canon or Nikon.

I don't care about the future of Nikon, Sony, Canon or any other company. I care about the future viability of my equipment. And having to replace it all in a few years' time in order to maintain good performance, while losing most of the resale value, doesn't qualify as 'viable'.

While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on September 21, 2017, 09:51:45 AM
While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.

One big drive to mirrorless for manufacturers is cost. Surely the cost to build a mirrorless camera ( electronic device ) is much less than the equivalent DSLR ( mechanical ). In a shrinking market, costs become very important as manufacturers strive to keep profitable. I would think Sony's profit from a A9 sale is much greater than Nikon's profit from a D850 sale.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 21, 2017, 11:09:23 AM
While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.

Sensors can be the same whether the camera is an SLR, mirrorless body or fixed-lens point-and-shoot. The three main advantages of mirrorless are EVF vs OVF, AF and video.

Once you can make an EVF with imperceptible lag (which has now been achieved), EVFs are a lot more capable than OVFs. They work a lot better in the dark - once it gets dark enough, you can't see anything through an OVF, while the EVF can just increase the gain. You get some noise, but at least you can still compose and focus. They can give true, through-the-sensor feedback, giving a true representation of what the final image will look like, brightness, colour, contrast and all - rather than just composition, they also give information about exposure (an SLR's meter can give you a weighted average, but doesn't tell you anything about dynamic range or whether parts of the scene will be blown out). They can be configured to display things like histograms, shadow/highlight alerts, focal planes, etc. The most you can do with an OVF is make it big and bright, and you can do that with an EVF too (and make it even bigger and brighter, along with all the other advantages).

Mirrorless AF has a lot more potential than SLR AF. For the most part, SLR AF is 'dumb' AF - it focuses on whatever it's pointed at and tracks it based on change in distance, rather than by subject recognition. There are some AI-based modes, using a low-resolution metering sensor, but these are limited, and restricted to the part of the frame covered by the AF system. In contrast, a through-the-sensor AF system can use both 'dumb' (PDAF and basic CDAF) and 'smart' AF systems (subject recognition, of which face detection is just the most basic) equally well. The 'smart' tracking systems are only going to get smarter and more versatile as processors and software improve, while you can't really make the 'dumb' systems much better - they already pretty much focus instantly on what you point them at.

Connected to AF, mirrorless video also has a lot more potential than SLR video. With the exception of cameras with a pellicle mirror, video is always shot in mirrorless mode - a mirror just can't move fast enough to shoot 25fps or higher. The camera is then reliant on on-sensor AF for focus - without the mirror in place, the off-sensor AF can't work. Thing is, all a mirrorless body's AF is on-sensor - the AF system remains fully functional while shooting video. The SLR is reduced to whatever on-sensor AF capabilities it has - with the exception of Canon's dual pixel sensors, this is usually not a great deal. This also has an impact on action stills photography. An 8k video camera capable of full AF capability while shooting video is also a fully-functional 39MP/25fps action camera. And that's not very far away.

Until this year, the main technological (rather than cultural, e.g. the insistence by some that mirrorless cameras need to be small) holdups of mirrorless bodies have been slow AF and EVF lag. Both have now been addressed.

How much better can you make an SLR, that you can't also do in a mirrorless body (i.e. not the sensor, since that can go into any camera)? Not a great deal. So, once mirrorless definitively surpasses SLRs in all these things (they have already reached parity with the top tier of SLRs), manufacturers are likely to mostly stop developing SLRs. There just won't be any reason to make them, apart from backward compatibility with vintage lenses (which Nikon/Canon won't be selling any more, so won't be making profit from) and appealing to an ever-decreasing cohort of technological Luddites.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: jeremyrh on September 21, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

I thought Sony fanboi-ism is the new LuLa editorial policy?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on September 21, 2017, 11:28:33 AM
Shadowblade,

I am really not sure why you feel the urge to defend you purchasing strategy again and again. Your point has been made 10 times already, anyone with an IQ above 40 should have understood by now.

On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

Why not just accept the fact that we have different needs, are in a different context and are just trying to maximize the technical quality of our work by staying close to the cutting edge of technology without that much interest in the integral of the money we will have to spend in the process?

The fact that Sony will be better in 2 years is totally irrelevant to my photography today. It does impact the economical aspect for sure, but this extra cost is affordable to me at the moment.

Cheers,
Bernard

That's because you already own Nikon glass. For you, it's a sunk cost. Even if the new camera had been garbage, you'd still be stuck with the glass. With the D850 being an improvement over every other Nikon body for every purpose other than shooting 12-14fps, you may as well use it for one more generation.

It's relevant for anyone who isn't already shooting Nikon, who would have to buy into a new system.

What if the new camera hadn't been the D850, but the 5Ds2, accompanied by a few updated Canon L-lenses that make their Nikon equivalents look outdated? What if the D810 had the 5Ds's dynamic range and there was no word on its replacement, save that it wasn't due for another 18 months or so (with no word as to its capabilities)? Would you go out and buy $50k worth of Canon glass today, knowing that you'd probably have to replace it in five years' time if you wanted to retain your AF capability and use future bodies to their full potential? Or would you be looking for a system with likely greater longevity, whose components you could easily sell even if someone else came up with a better mirrorless system in the future?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 21, 2017, 11:36:13 AM
I agree with Bernard. No offense, but most of the banter here is by now so tedious. How about we shoot with the D850 and show some of what it can do? Let's see some photos please.


P.S.
I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on September 21, 2017, 11:45:03 AM
P.S.
I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.

May have to do with the Raw converter?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 21, 2017, 11:51:14 AM
I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.

Have you looked at the raw files to see if they're clipped?

(still waiting on my D850)

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 21, 2017, 12:12:01 PM
Have you looked at the raw files to see if they're clipped?

(still waiting on my D850)

Jim

I have not looked, but I can see where they are clipped or near clipping, so I'm working with that just now. I seems like just an adjustment in processing, and not exposing AS MUCH to the right as I have been. But this is all new too.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on September 21, 2017, 12:15:04 PM
I have not looked, but I can see where they are clipped or near clipping, so I'm working with that just now. I seems like just an adjustment in processing, and not exposing AS MUCH to the right as I have been. But this is all new too.

If you're looking in your raw developer, I recommend taking a look with RawDigger, or, as a second choice, FRV. Some (Most? All?) raw developers can show clipping in the image at default settings when the input file is not clipped.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 21, 2017, 02:25:13 PM
May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 21, 2017, 03:20:48 PM
May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?

I'm looking in an iPhone 7 screen, not the best to evaluate photos, d810 looks a bit more warmer...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: davidgp on September 21, 2017, 03:22:41 PM
I like The Camera Store reviews, so here you have the 30 minute review of the D850 - https://youtu.be/A_OMIRHXynQ


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on September 21, 2017, 03:30:21 PM
May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?



To my eyes the 850 is cleaner both in colours and the drawing.
Both are nice, but the new one is clearly better :).
Did you use the electronic shutter on the 850?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: capital on September 21, 2017, 06:57:00 PM
Regarding the comparison in post #496, the two images have slightly different perspectives, making a direct comparison difficult. Even more so since the overall image area increase is about 10MP. Imaging Resource had some direct comparisons of the cameras you discussed, and you can see the advantage of larger sensors only in certain image detail regimes, even then, it is modest.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 22, 2017, 01:22:44 PM
Starting to get more of a handle on the Nikon D850.  I like it! I can see I will learn to even love it.

Turning off all sound in the camera as part of LiveView is way more wonderful than I would have imagined. Silence. Great for stacking photos and progress is as easy as watching the Live View screen visibly changing. I will use it ALL the time.

The tilt-able screen in LiveView is helpful, but would be more helpful if it moved four ways instead of two, but not any real worry.

To me, it looks like Nikon came out of the closet and threw everything they had this baby in an attempt to reinstate themselves. IMO, it works. I have (at least for now) lost ALL interest in medium-format cameras and ALL need for the mirrorless cameras with their  EVFs. The improved LiveView of the D850 is enough RVF to allow me to do what I need to do until.... someday... something much superior comes along.

And what an incredible bargain in price! Compared to the 15-20 thousand dollars to properly tool up for Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, spending about $3400 for the D850 (with a couple of extra batteries) is a steal. And have not even begun to explore this camera’s use in sports or nightclubs, which I will use for music acts, since I am around them a lot.

Not owning many AF lenses, the little focus-stacking option (which I think just produces JPGs!) is a non-starter for me. I like to roll my own stacks, thank you, and use the best lenses I have, many of which are not Nikkors. And without a raw option for this, I would never use this feature. But some I imagine will.

The D850 seems a tad heavier than the D810, but not enough to consider. The new more deeply-indented grip is nice, but I am always on a tripod, so not important to me. The batteries are said to last longer than those for the D810, but even these empty too fast for my taste.

I have an L-Bracket coming soon from RRS, so until then I am using the one for the D810. Works well enough for now. I never used the on-board flash on the D810, so would much prefer to have the larger OVF viewfinder, but will never use that... Well, maybe sometimes.

There are a great many features I have yet to try out, but my bread & butter settings are all there. The additional joystick I have no use for, already using the multi-selector button to move around. And, of course, setting my multi-selector-center button to magnify is the first thing I did. Works fine.

I’m sure readers know all of this, so I’ am just confessing my Yes for this camera.

Here is a shot with the APO-El Nikkor 105mm on the Cambo Actus of some New England Asters.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 22, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
And what an incredible bargain in price! Compared to the 15-20 thousand dollars to properly tool up for Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, spending about $3400 for the D850 (with a couple of extra batteries) is a steal. And have not even begun to explore this camera’s use in sports or nightclubs, which I will use for music acts, since I am around them a lot.
If only Nikon had a trade in upgrade program!!!!!  Hard for me to pull the string on this one as I've only had my 810 for a couple of years.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 22, 2017, 03:34:37 PM
If only Nikon had a trade in upgrade program!!!!!  Hard for me to pull the string on this one as I've only had my 810 for a couple of years.

I have so many shutter activations, I will just keep my D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 22, 2017, 05:11:38 PM
I have so many shutter activations, I will just keep my D810.
I am in the same position- 225.000 and counting....

The natural clarity of this image is breathtaking - good lenses can do so more than sensors and it shows.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 23, 2017, 07:57:17 AM
I am liking the new D850 the more I get used to it. For my work, it is about perfect.  Here are a few shots taken yesterday, two with the Nikkor CRT lens and one with the legendary Noct Nikkor. They are marked.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rory on September 24, 2017, 09:33:09 AM
Turning off all sound in the camera as part of LiveView is way more wonderful than I would have imagined. Silence. Great for stacking photos and progress is as easy as watching the Live View screen visibly changing. I will use it ALL the time.

Not owning many AF lenses, the little focus-stacking option (which I think just produces JPGs!) is a non-starter for me. I like to roll my own stacks, thank you, and use the best lenses I have, many of which are not Nikkors. And without a raw option for this, I would never use this feature. But some I imagine will.


How do you get the stacking progress to show on the live view screen?  What is "the little focus-stacking option"?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 25, 2017, 03:15:58 AM
How do you get the stacking progress to show on the live view screen?  What is "the little focus-stacking option"?

I watch each shot appear on LiveView.

The new focus-stacking feature is in the manual.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on September 25, 2017, 04:34:12 AM
A bit hidden in the manual and not much published is the fact EFC now works with the quiet shuttermodes.
I think that is a great new feature. I will be using that a lot.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: HSakols on September 25, 2017, 09:06:28 AM
Is anyone using their D850 with adobe lightroom?  Can the file be converted to DNG before going to lightroom?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rory on September 25, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
I watch each shot appear on LiveView.

The new focus-stacking feature is in the manual.

I've been using the focus stacking on the D850 and I've read the manual.  What I cannot do is make each successive shot appear on the monitor and I do not see anything about this in the menu guide, so I was hoping you could help me get this working.  If I invoke focus stacking in live view it performs the stack but the monitor stays blank during the burst.  I do have D11 (Live View in continuous mode) set to ON.  Within the focus shift menu, if I set silent photography to ON then the monitor flashes during the burst but I do not see the image.  Setting the delay between shots in the burst to 1 or 2 seconds does not help.

Also, the shots are being saved in whatever format I have set: NEF, TIFF or JPG, so I was also wondering what you were referring to when you mentioned only producing JPG.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rory on September 25, 2017, 09:18:16 AM
Is anyone using their D850 with adobe lightroom?  Can the file be converted to DNG before going to lightroom?

Right now you have to use the DNG converter.  Here is some info from an Adobe employee to use profiles other than adobe standard:

Quote
The DNG Converter and Camera Raw plugin installers install the Nikon D850 camera profiles in a central location on computers where the Camera Raw plugin looks for profiles.

Lightroom does not look for profiles in this location. As a workaround, you can use Camera Raw 9.12.1 instead of Lightroom for now.

Another workaround is to copy the Nikon D850 camera profiles into the user-level Camera Profiles directory. Both Lightroom and Camera Raw check this location. It is intended for custom, user-generated camera profiles.

Copy all the files with a .dcp extension and "Nikon D850" in their name from the central location to the user-level directory.

On Mac the profiles for the D850 are centrally installed at this path:
/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Camera

The user-level location is:
/Users/YOUR USER NAME HERE/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles

Note that this path does not include the final "Camera" sub folder. By default the macOS Finder won't navigate to these folders, but you can access them by using the "Go" menu in Finder and typing in the path. For the user-level folder "~/Library" is an abbreviation for the Library folder inside your home directory (as opposed to /Library, the central location).

On Windows PCs the central location is:
C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\Camera

Assuming you have Windows installed on your "C:" drive. If not, adjust as necessary.

The user-level location is:

C:\Users\YOUR USER NAME HERE\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

Unless you've customized Windows to keep your user directory on a different drive. Note there is not final "Camera" sub directory at the user-level location.

In the future after installing a new version of Lightroom with built-in D850 support, you will not need to keep the Nikon D850 .dcp files in the user-level location.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 25, 2017, 11:00:26 AM
I have a question:

I am using the D850 on LiveView. I have it set for EFC and silence. When I take a photo, I would like it to NOT show me the result, but bring me back to the LiveView screen. It was doing this, but I messed something up. Can anyone point out how to do this? Please and thank you.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Miles on September 25, 2017, 06:03:28 PM
Michael,
You may have switched "Image Review" to "On" in the "Playback Menu".  See pages 225 and 249 in the manual.  I hope this helps.
Miles
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 26, 2017, 09:33:44 AM
Michael,
You may have switched "Image Review" to "On" in the "Playback Menu".  See pages 225 and 249 in the manual.  I hope this helps.
Miles

That's it. Thanks. Don't know what I was thinking. I probably wasn't!
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: wallpaperviking on September 27, 2017, 02:51:17 AM
Hi Michael,
                 
Glad to hear you are liking the new camera :)


Am thinking of getting one myself and was hoping you may answer a couple of questions for me? 

I have used the D810 previously and love the fact that it has a 5:4 aspect ratio (presented as a semi opaque mask in the OVF).  I see that they have also included this in the D850, as well as a 1:1 it seems.

Just wondering if this option presents you with the cropped 5:4 Raw image (as the D810) did, or presents you with the full sensor capture (3:2) and provides "crop lines" in post processing software? 

This is what my Fuji GFX does and it has come in handy a few times where there is something just outside the frame that I did not originally "visualise".

Would also love to hear your opinion if you think much more time is needed in terms of handholding the camera and getting "acceptable" results?  I assume the 1/focal length rule is well out but would be curious to know what you think in terms of handholding the D850?  The improved focus system is great but I assume the camera also needs to be handled somewhat with extra care when paired with a high Mpx sensor....

Thanks so much in advance, much appreciated :)


Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 27, 2017, 12:48:28 PM
Hi Michael,
                 
Glad to hear you are liking the new camera :)


Am thinking of getting one myself and was hoping you may answer a couple of questions for me? 

I have used the D810 previously and love the fact that it has a 5:4 aspect ratio (presented as a semi opaque mask in the OVF).  I see that they have also included this in the D850, as well as a 1:1 it seems.

Just wondering if this option presents you with the cropped 5:4 Raw image (as the D810) did, or presents you with the full sensor capture (3:2) and provides "crop lines" in post processing software? 

This is what my Fuji GFX does and it has come in handy a few times where there is something just outside the frame that I did not originally "visualise".

Would also love to hear your opinion if you think much more time is needed in terms of handholding the camera and getting "acceptable" results?  I assume the 1/focal length rule is well out but would be curious to know what you think in terms of handholding the D850?  The improved focus system is great but I assume the camera also needs to be handled somewhat with extra care when paired with a high Mpx sensor....

Thanks so much in advance, much appreciated :)

Sorry, but I only use the camera on a tripod and never experiment with cropped/masked images. I don't handhold it. I never use AF.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: StephenStarkman on September 27, 2017, 04:20:25 PM
Wallpaperviking: Regarding in-camera crop mode, the D850 behaves the same as the D810.
One thing to note, EFCS is available in Viewfinder shooting if you use the Quiet or Quiet continuous modes. You can also choose to add a .2 (or longer) delay when shooting this way. I haven't had an opportunity for a controlled test - lots of variables including VR on/off, shutter speed, etc. Hope this helps. Stephen
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rory on September 27, 2017, 11:47:20 PM
I find it annoying that focus peaking only works when the lens focus is set to manual.  Many nikon lenses allow both AF and manual focus.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: wallpaperviking on September 28, 2017, 07:08:01 AM
Thanks for the replies, much appreciated!

Will keep an eye out for further tests on what people think is possible to get sharp images from this camera handheld...

Thanks again.. :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2017, 12:28:57 PM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4455/37214842030_28f1f5c442_o.jpg)
D850 + 70-200mm f2.8 E FL

The D850 colors may be its strongest point!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: S@W on October 03, 2017, 02:53:04 PM
Thanks for sharing Bernard.
Good news.

I've red that you like you're 70-200mm very much. But considering the quality of this body, aren't you tempted to use it more with a lens like the 105mm f1,4 to have the prime quality out of it?

I'm waiting for my D850 and do not own a single Nikon lens for the moment. As I'm using a medium format when max IQ is wanted, I'm undecided: buy zoom lenses only for the D850 or still add some excellent primes like the 28 & 105 f1,4.
As it would be redundant with my MF primes the Nikon zooms make more sense. But still, a D850 with a set of good primes is very attractive !
Advices welcomed  :)

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 03, 2017, 04:11:19 PM
Thanks for sharing Bernard.
Good news.

I've red that you like you're 70-200mm very much. But considering the quality of this body, aren't you tempted to use it more with a lens like the 105mm f1,4 to have the prime quality out of it?

I'm waiting for my D850 and do not own a single Nikon lens for the moment. As I'm using a medium format when max IQ is wanted, I'm undecided: buy zoom lenses only for the D850 or still add some excellent primes like the 28 & 105 f1,4.
As it would be redundant with my MF primes the Nikon zooms make more sense. But still, a D850 with a set of good primes is very attractive !
Advices welcomed  :)

A 105mm lens is useless if you need 100mm or 120mm, let alone 70mm or 200mm. You need a lens that fits the scene and angle of view you're shooting. If you have to go looking for a scene that fits your lens each time, you won't get very far and will miss a lot of shots.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on October 03, 2017, 04:54:35 PM
A 105mm lens is useless if you need 100mm or 120mm, let alone 70mm or 200mm. You need a lens that fits the scene and angle of view you're shooting. If you have to go looking for a scene that fits your lens each time, you won't get very far and will miss a lot of shots.

I am speechless. The only situation in which I can imagine a 105 being useless in which a 100 would work fine is a subject where getting further back is not possible and I needed the slight additional FOV to get what I wanted into the picture.

I've been using 105's on FF cameras since the 60s. In all that time I have never said to myself, "I wish I had a 100 on the camera now." I suppose it could happen tomorrow, but I think that's a big, big reach. I use primes about 85% of the time.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 03, 2017, 05:05:33 PM
And having a 120mm from a 105mm is even easier: slight crop (keep 88% of the original frame). In digital imaging the only implication of changing the FOV, i.e. cropping, is the loss of Mpx. And the D850 has tons of that! you'd still have a 35Mpx 120mm image if I did the calculation right.
 

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2017, 05:19:53 PM
The application drove the choice of the lens this time around, I was on a sailing boat and wanted to benefit from stabilization.

But the 70-200 f2.8 E FL is better than most primes I have used anyway, in the very same ballpark as the 105mm f1.4.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on October 03, 2017, 05:22:20 PM
The application drove the choice of the lens this time around, I was on a sailing boat and wanted to benefit from stabilization.

But the 70-200 f2.8 E FL is better than most primes I have used anyway, in the very same ballpark as the 105mm f1.4.


My copy of the 70-200 is excellent, but it's not quite as good as the 105 at f/1.4.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: NancyP on October 03, 2017, 07:17:26 PM
It's pretty simple. What is the role of the new camera? Do you like shooting with primes, even if you have zooms available, and are you shooting in situations where you have enough time to switch primes? Or, are you shooting fast-moving subjects or shooting in harsh weather conditions where you really don't want to change lenses?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on October 03, 2017, 08:10:11 PM
A 105mm lens is useless if you need 100mm or 120mm, let alone 70mm or 200mm. You need a lens that fits the scene and angle of view you're shooting. If you have to go looking for a scene that fits your lens each time, you won't get very far and will miss a lot of shots.

Shadowblade is obviously exaggerating the situation with his choice of FL examples, but the principle is still valid.

If you are using a prime in order to get the best resolution from your camera, then cropping the image to get a longer focal-length-equivalent, defeats the purpose of using a prime in preference to a zoom.

Likewise, if the FL of your prime is too long for a particular scene, and you have to spend time walking backwards, if you can, trying to avoid tripping up and smashing your camera on the ground, then you could quite easily 'miss the moment' and lose the shot.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: StephenStarkman on October 03, 2017, 11:29:39 PM
A 105mm lens is useless if you need 100mm or 120mm, let alone 70mm or 200mm. You need a lens that fits the scene and angle of view you're shooting. If you have to go looking for a scene that fits your lens each time, you won't get very far and will miss a lot of shots.

Sorry, that's just ridiculous - sounds like an argument for the sake of arguing.
Just my opinion.

Stephen
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 03, 2017, 11:32:48 PM
I am speechless. The only situation in which I can imagine a 105 being useless in which a 100 would work fine is a subject where getting further back is not possible and I needed the slight additional FOV to get what I wanted into the picture.

I've been using 105's on FF cameras since the 60s. In all that time I have never said to myself, "I wish I had a 100 on the camera now." I suppose it could happen tomorrow, but I think that's a big, big reach. I use primes about 85% of the time.

Jim

I run into that problem all the time.

If I have a 100mm lens and actually needed 95mm, I can't just reverse into the side of a mountain, or off a bridge, to increase the field of view. If I needed a slightly longer focal length, I can't walk off a cliff or fly into the air to get closer. Staying in the same spot and cropping costs resolution. And changing position changes the relationship of objects in relation to each other - it's not the same as changing focal length.

If you're shooting macros, portraits or other subjects where you have more freedom to move around the subject without adversely affecting composition, it would be a different situation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 03, 2017, 11:35:58 PM
Sorry, that's just ridiculous - sounds like an argument for the sake of arguing.
Just my opinion.

Stephen

So, what are you going to do when you're shooting from a bridge or a cliff-hugging trail, and need 90mm or 100mm? Shoot with your 55mm and crop? Or shoot with the 105mm and end up with a composition that's too zoomed in (possibly even losing the edges of it if it's tight)?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on October 04, 2017, 02:34:50 AM
So, what are you going to do when you're shooting from a bridge or a cliff-hugging trail, and need 90mm or 100mm? Shoot with your 55mm and crop? Or shoot with the 105mm and end up with a composition that's too zoomed in (possibly even losing the edges of it if it's tight)?

make a stitch
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2017, 02:37:00 AM
make a stitch

Indeed, I carried only my Zeiss 100mm f2.0 and a pano head for a few years back in the days.

Some of my favorite images were captured with the set up. Once you get used to stitching this way it becomes so easy that you just do it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: S@W on October 04, 2017, 05:57:07 AM
Making most of my photography as a hobby, missing a shot because I couldn’t frame it perfectly won’t be a drama.
Having a perfectly framed shot that lacks the crispness of a prime lens on the other side could become one  :o

Moreover I find zoom lenses distracting and far prefer the ‘liberating constraints’  of shooting with a prime.
When a prime is mounted on my body my eye start to frame like it and it makes it easier to find a nice shot.
Of course sometimes I miss some opportunities but the balance is still far more positive.

However to get better AF and low light capacity when needed and also more flexibility during paid jobs time I’ve decided to buy the D850.
If the 70-200mm FL is that good on it, I won’t bother with primes in that range for the Nikon.
What Bernard says is very encouraging but I guess I’ll still have to see by myself what IQ gap (if any) there is between the zoom @105 & f2.8 and the 105 f1.4  at the same aperture f.i.  My idea is to go for the Nikon 70-200mm Fl or the Tamron G2 + Nikon 105mm f1.4 depending on the IQ packages.

I perfectly understand and respect those that prefer the zoom flexibility and suppose they’ll do the same for the prime lovers  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2017, 06:15:12 AM
Just to be clear, I own both the 105mm f1.4, that I consider to be the best portrait lens on the market, and the 70-200 f2.8 E FL.

They are close optically but the 105mm f1.4 has a magic at f1.4 and close reach that is unique, while remaining excellent technically. The 105mm f1.4 caused me to sell my beloved Otus 85mm f1.4.

The 70-200 is faster AF wise, as fast as the super teles in my experience, stabilized and obviously offers the flexibility of the zoom. It is also fully weather proofed and is really a no brainer for the kind of sailing applications I was dealing with. Per my quick initial assessment, my hit ration of perfectly focused images on a moving platform is in excess of 90%... and that is without having had to do any focus calibration.

I have found my copy of the 105mm f1.4 to require some focus calibration on all my bodies and the AF isn't as fast unfortunately.

Two amazing tool standing at the very pinacle of optics.

If I were to pick one I'd probably get the 70-200 f2.8 E FL, it is that good.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: S@W on October 04, 2017, 06:57:38 AM
Many thanks for this feedback Bernard !
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bo_Dez on October 04, 2017, 09:17:29 AM
I think the new Nikon 70-200 is widely acknowledged as the best zoom going by many of the very top photographers around. The positives outweigh what is lost from a prime for those who need to flexibility a zoom offers.

Stitching, moving around, or what ever focal length workaround you can think of is often not an option for some people in some situations. Especially so for those that require a 70-200.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Bo_Dez on October 04, 2017, 09:21:25 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4455/37214842030_28f1f5c442_o.jpg)
D850 + 70-200mm f2.8 E FL

The D850 colors may be its strongest point!

Cheers,
Bernard

Absolutely stunning colour and sharpness, the best I have seen in a 35mm camera.

I am still seeing the brittleness of the smaller sensor aesthetic though.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Rob C on October 04, 2017, 09:28:56 AM
Just to be clear, I own both the 105mm f1.4, that I consider to be the best portrait lens on the market, and the 70-200 f2.8 E FL.

They are close optically but the 105mm f1.4 has a magic at f1.4 and close reach that is unique, while remaining excellent technically. The 105mm f1.4 caused me to sell my beloved Otus 85mm f1.4.

The 70-200 is faster AF wise, as fast as the super teles in my experience, stabilized and obviously offers the flexibility of the zoom. It is also fully weather proofed and is really a no brainer for the kind of sailing applications I was dealing with. Per my quick initial assessment, my hit ration of perfectly focused images on a moving platform is in excess of 90%... and that is without having had to do any focus calibration.

I have found my copy of the 105mm f1.4 to require some focus calibration on all my bodies and the AF isn't as fast unfortunately.

Two amazing tool standing at the very pinacle of optics.

If I were to pick one I'd probably get the 70-200 f2.8 E FL, it is that good.

Cheers,
Bernard

Was it here, or was it on the Online Photographer that there was a breakdown of how lenses are tested, the variations found between individual ones of the same spec and name? It explained how variations are measured, where many of the lens problems lie and originate. The fact that zooms usually carry even more separate lenses than primes multiplies the chance of manufacturing and assembly errors hugely. Taking one good example of a lens, and of a zoom in particular, as a norm applicable to all of the others bearing the same name is a massive leap of faith and probably far from sound.

I have only once bought a zoom - in my second life as an amateur - and it was the Nikkor G 24-70mm which I'd imagined would give me a wonderful walkaround glass. What a mistake! Even on a D200 with its small sensor, thus using only the central area of the lens's circle, the results were hopeless at any focal length. And I wasn't thinking in terms of big prints, just A3+ maximum. Yet, Russ posted a few shots of images he'd made in a café with the same lens (obviously, not mine) and they were beautifully crisp. And to think I'd been using a heavy Gitzo and he not. But one way or another, even had it been perfectly wonderful, the reality is that it's just too damned big and heavy to cart around all morning on a string.

Of course, it might just have been the body and/or lens didn't love one another; fortunately, the body seems happy to have mechanical sex with the remaining lenses I own, manual ones and also the af pair.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: hogloff on October 04, 2017, 09:46:36 AM


Moreover I find zoom lenses distracting and far prefer the ‘liberating constraints’  of shooting with a prime.
When a prime is mounted on my body my eye start to frame like it and it makes it easier to find a nice shot.
Of course sometimes I miss some opportunities but the balance is still far more positive.


This is exactly my feelings ad well. I love shooting primes as my focus and vision gets in tune with that one focal length and I feel I get better images because of this focus rather than continuously thinking maybe a different focal length of the zoom would be better.

When I go out street shooting, I'd have something like a 25mm prime in the morning and look at closeup environmental type of images with in your face photos and change to an 85mm lens in the evening for more candid images.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2017, 10:16:45 PM
Zooms certainly require more brain power since U have one additional degree of freedom to play with.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 04, 2017, 10:48:23 PM
Indeed, I carried only my Zeiss 100mm f2.0 and a pano head for a few years back in the days.

Some of my favorite images were captured with the set up. Once you get used to stitching this way it becomes so easy that you just do it.

Cheers,
Bernard

Works very well when it's an option - I do it myself all the time - but that isn't always the case.

Try making a good stitch while standing on a narrow suspension bridge over a Himalayan gorge. It's not going to happen - the bridge is always moving and vibrating slightly. A slight breeze is enough to shift an image by a few pixels, even when there are no other people or yaks crossing the bridge at the same time. And the real problem isn't translational movements - parallax shifts don't come into play when shooting distant subjects (I don't even use a nodal pano head most of the time, because the nearest subject is many metres away and a parallax error of a few cm isn't recorded) - but rotational movements leading to objects pointing in slightly different directions between frames.

Then there are locations which just don't let you use tripods.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 04, 2017, 10:55:53 PM
Zooms certainly require more brain power since U have one additional degree of freedom to play with.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not really - they just give you more options.

Often, your shooting location is dictated by the topography - for compositional or access reasons, there is only one spot you can shoot from to get the composition you want (yes, you can shoot a mountain from many different directions, but each direction and each foreground gives you a completely different photo, and each spot can be many days' hike apart). This leaves you with only a few specific focal lengths that will give you a desirable composition at each location (often one wider shot, as well as one or more close-ups), and a zoom is far more likely to have these specific focal lengths covered than a prime.

The good thing is, when shooting landscapes, what usually matters is sharpness at f/5.6-f/11, not wide-open sharpness, so there is little penalty to using one.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 05, 2017, 01:55:12 AM
Agreed, but this wasn't the point.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: scooby70 on October 05, 2017, 04:57:05 AM
Zooms certainly require more brain power since U have one additional degree of freedom to play with.

Cheers,
Bernard

I like to think of zooms as a long list of primes and I try to use them that way :D

With a zoom I have the choice of not only composition but perspective too (assuming I can change position without falling off a bridge or cliff) whereas if I only have a prime once I've chosen my framing I'm stuck with the perspective unless I change lenses or change position and crop like crazy. That has to be a big advantage for the zoom as long as the quality is ok and the aperture acceptable.

Having said all that I very rarely use zooms but that's just me and mainly because I like the combination of a compact lens and being able to shoot at wider apertures. If there was a 24/28-70mm f1.8 that was the size of a 50mm f1.2 I'd probably buy it, live with the aperture and keep a couple of primes just for the particular look they give.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 05, 2017, 07:51:52 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4513/37462917466_1c6cf5616c_o.jpg)
D850 + 24-70mm f2.8 E VR

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 05, 2017, 09:06:01 AM
Bernard, you need to stop posting all these D850 images.  It's going to force me to upgrade from my D810!!! ;D

Seriously though, keep them coming.  Amazing what can be done with new technology these days.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 05, 2017, 09:15:28 AM
Bernard, you need to stop posting all these D850 images.  It's going to force me to upgrade from my D810!!! ;D

Another one for the road. ;)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4456/36800876654_a5bbfbee34_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on October 06, 2017, 07:40:57 AM
The sensor is measured value 100 on DXOmark...

And especially the colordepth seems very good.
So exactly what Bernard noticed using the camera.
High iso seems a bit less than the d810. That is despite Nikons claim it would be better.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 06, 2017, 11:10:22 AM
Yes, if they had some marketing poeple at Nikon they may have called it the D850 trichromc. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on October 06, 2017, 12:37:29 PM
I am not familiar with all new Nikkors; But when it comes to deep colour i have to think of the 58mm F1.4.
The combination with the d850 will be even more extreme.
I did not buy the lens for i was looking for a lens with better sharpness, but the coatings of that lens are very nice.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: rgmoore on October 06, 2017, 01:09:00 PM
Bernard,

Your information and photos regarding D850 are much appreciated.
In your experience which of the recent Nikkor lenses work most favorably with the outstanding D850 sensor?

Thank you in advance.

Richard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: henrikfoto on October 06, 2017, 05:04:47 PM
The only killer now would be a new Sony A7r3  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on October 06, 2017, 08:37:32 PM
The sensor is measured value 100 on DXOmark...

And especially the colordepth seems very good.
So exactly what Bernard noticed using the camera.
High iso seems a bit less than the d810. That is despite Nikons claim it would be better.

I was beginning to wonder why DXOMark was taking so long to test the D850. It's now tested and the results are out. In what way do you think the high ISO of the D850 is less than the D810? In terms of Dynamic Range the D850 is significantly better all the way up from, and including, ISO 200.

However, there is some difference in the actual sensitivity of the ISO measurements. Only at the nominal ISO 200 do both cameras have the same ISO sensitivity. Above ISO 200 the D850 becomes slightly less sensitive, therefore, the 'almost one stop DR advantage at ISO 800 and ISO 1600', for example, becomes effectively about 0.75 EV advantage, using the same shutter speed with the same lens. Nevertheless, whilst the DR advantage of the D850 is reduced slightly due to differing ISO sensitivities, the highlight recovery advantage is increased by the same degree, when using the same exposure.

Here's a screen capture of the DXOMark comparison DR graph.



Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: shadowblade on October 07, 2017, 04:11:25 AM
The only killer now would be a new Sony A7r3  ;)

I doubt it. Unless the prospective specs of the A7r3/A9r are way off, Sony would have to introduce another line between the high-speed, low-resolution A9 and the low-speed, high-resolution A7r bodies to compete.

A 70MP, 5fps-or-slower camera isn't going to touch the D850, even with the A9 AF system. All it would do is peel away some of the studio/landscape users - it wouldn't have the same general, multipurpose appeal of the D850.

A 60MP, 6-7fps A7r3/A9r would do better, and may be Sony's best option if it doesn't plan on producing something between the low-resolution/high-speed and high-resolution/low-speed models.

A 50MP, 8-10fps body would provide a true competitor to the D850 (provided Sony keeps expanding its lens lineup - both Canon and Nikon will have to do the same when they launch their mirrorless bodies, although I'd imagine Nikon would be quick to bring out a mirrorless version of its spectacular 70-200 f/2.8). But it's also a fairly unlikely resolution for the A7r3/A9r - almost certainly, it'll be something higher-resolution and slower.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on October 07, 2017, 06:02:01 AM
Here's a screen capture of the DXOMark comparison DR graph.

Comparing sensor quality, is best done not on a DxO 'print' downsampled size but on DxO 'screen' original size. Of course, the additional pixels of a sensor with smaller pitch photosites will positively affect output quality (at smaller output sizes), but then so does postprocessing. The larger the output size that one needs to produce, or the more cropping is required, the more the DxO 'screen' scores matter, also for output.

Anyway, the differences are not that large. The D850 seems to be a very fine camera, judging from the specifications alone.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 07, 2017, 06:23:47 AM
I think the right comparison is 'Print'. It's actually not a downsampling but a statistical SNR correction, and is the closest performance indicator to what the photographer will find when using the compared cameras in the same application.

Regards

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2017, 08:22:53 AM
Yes, print seems more relevant for real world photography.

So far I have only used very recent lenses and they are all optically spectacular on the D850:
- 19mm T/S
- 24mm f1.8
- 28mm f1.4 E
- 24-70mm f2.8 E VR
- 105mm f1.4 E
- 70-200 f2.8 E FL

For non Nikon glass:
- Leica 180mm f2.8 R APO
- Zeiss Otus 55mm f1.4

So far so good. ;)

AF wise I will need to calibrate my 24mm f1.8...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BartvanderWolf on October 07, 2017, 08:42:29 AM
Yes, print seems more relevant for real world photography.

I agree for printed or downsampled output at a given output size, but it doesn't help when comparing sensor performance on its own. When we want to see if the sensels are producing a better quality, then we should be comparing the sensels, not the output (which will be different anyway, depending on Raw conversion quality, postprocessing, and output size). That's all I'm saying.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: rgmoore on October 07, 2017, 09:30:55 AM
Bernard, thank you. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2017, 10:04:58 AM
Sure, understood.

But a sensor being a global compromise btwn various factors (sensel quality, spacial sampling,...), print somehow federates the resulting image quality.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on October 07, 2017, 10:17:56 AM
I agree for printed or downsampled output at a given output size, but it doesn't help when comparing sensor performance on its own. When we want to see if the sensels are producing a better quality, then we should be comparing the sensels, not the output (which will be different anyway, depending on Raw conversion quality, postprocessing, and output size). That's all I'm saying.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,
In practice, I never view the sensor itself, only the output of the sensor. All images I view or print are at a given size, and images I compare for technical quality are always viewed at the same size.

However, comparing the noise characteristics of the D810 and D850 at the pixel level, shows that the D850 still has a significant DR advantage at high ISOs, up to 0.75 EV better than the D810, discounting the slight differences in ISO sensitivity.

Because the D810 pixel is slightly larger, its SNR at 18% is very marginally better, but to an insignificant degree, ranging from 0.1dB to a maximum of 1dB better.

None of the DXOMark graphs show any significant difference between the two cameras at the pixel level, except for DR at high ISOs.

Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Jim Kasson on October 07, 2017, 11:18:40 AM
Here's a screen capture of the DXOMark comparison DR graph.

I like the way that Bill Claff presents similar data (in his case, dynamic range to resolution-adjusted target SNR) better:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

For one thing, Bill plots the results in 1/3 stop increments, as opposed to DXOMark's full stops. That allows you to, in the case of the D850, see the result of the conversion gain change, and to see that you shouldn't use ISO 320 if you care about DR.

DXOMark does have the advantage that they plot actual sensitivity versus nominal, though.

My take is that, between the D810 and the D850, PDR is essentially a wash until ISO 400, where the conversion gain increases.

Jim
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on October 07, 2017, 07:01:57 PM
I like the way that Bill Claff presents similar data (in his case, dynamic range to resolution-adjusted target SNR) better:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

For one thing, Bill plots the results in 1/3 stop increments, as opposed to DXOMark's full stops. That allows you to, in the case of the D850, see the result of the conversion gain change, and to see that you shouldn't use ISO 320 if you care about DR.

DXOMark does have the advantage that they plot actual sensitivity versus nominal, though.


I've alwaysbeen wary of using intermediate ISO settings. They didn't seem to serve much purpose years ago when i was using Canon DSLRs. It was generally better to underexpose at ISO 200, for example, than attempt to get an ETTR exposure at ISO 320 using the same shutter speed. Shadow detail (when shooting RAW) would tend to remain the same at ISO 200, and the risk of blowing highlights would be reduced, compared with the ISO 320 setting.

Quote
My take is that, between the D810 and the D850, PDR is essentially a wash until ISO 400, where the conversion gain increases.

In practice, for general, hand-held photography, when getting a sufficiently fast shutter speed to freeze movement is often a concern, I find that ISO 200 is a much-used setting.

According to the DXO graph, both the D810 and the D850 at the nominal ISO of 200 have exactly the same measured ISO of 141, yet the DR of the D850, at ISO 141, is half a stop better (or 0.49 EV to be precise).

I would consider a half stop of greater DR to be at the threshold of a worthwhile improvement, although less than half a stop, such as 1/3rd or 1/4th EV, would be of little concern. Wouldn't you agree?

I tend to value DXOMark's DR results because I have always found them to be in approximate agreement with my own practical tests comparing shadow detail and noise in identical scenes shot with different cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Michael Erlewine on October 11, 2017, 02:32:04 AM
Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) finally lays to rest the question of ISO 64 between the Nikon D810 and the new D850. Equally important to my work, he successfully vets the "lo" ISO values for each camera (ISO 31 on the D850 and ISO 50 on the D810), although they are not "real" ISOs. Of all the reports on the D850, this is what I am most interested in hearing about. One has to subscribe, but this report itself is worth the subscription IMO.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: kers on October 11, 2017, 08:19:13 AM
Yes, very nice that you can use this camera from 32 to 128.000 asa !
a really very versatile camera, in line with the tradition of the 35mm platform.


Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2017, 08:42:00 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4458/37582864462_c2d22d2d18_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4464/37566440846_0f8cfab500_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/36963549973_f865946bb6_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: 32BT on October 11, 2017, 08:46:00 AM
Nice definition in blue. Good tonal separation and depth. What lenses? What RAW converter?
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
Nice definition in blue. Good tonal separation and depth. What lenses? What RAW converter?

Converted with C1 Pro 10, lenses are 70-200 f2.8 E FL and 24-70 f2.8 E VR.

Both are very good (never understood the criticism of the 24-70 f2.8 VR, it is excellent and stabilization is a god send), the 70-200 f2.8 E FL very special.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: bjanes on October 11, 2017, 09:06:43 AM
Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) finally lays to rest the question of ISO 64 between the Nikon D810 and the new D850. Equally important to my work, he successfully vets the "lo" ISO values for each camera (ISO 31 on the D850 and ISO 50 on the D810), although they are not "real" ISOs. Of all the reports on the D850, this is what I am most interested in hearing about. One has to subscribe, but this report itself is worth the subscription IMO.

I may be wrong and would like to be corrected if so, but IMHO if the "lo" ISO of the D850 is like that of earlier Nikons, the lo option is simply increased exposure obtained by setting the light meter to a lower ISO and thus increasing exposure. One has to be careful not to blow the highlights. A similar result could be obtained by increasing exposure at ISO 64. Indeed, Bill Claff's photographic dynamic range shows little difference with the lo setting or between the D850 and D810.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

However, the input referred read noise at the "lo" ISOs is slightly lower for the D850 than the D810. With both cameras, the read noise does not change significantly when going from ISO 64 to the lo ISOs. The lower read noise of the D850 as compared to that of the D810 could result in an improved engineering DR. Whether this would show up in normal usage is uncertain as is the need to use these "lo" ISOs. The read noise chart does show clearly the switch to a higher gain at ISO 400.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_e.htm#Nikon%20D810_14,Nikon%20D850_14

Diglloyd notes that with the "lo" ISO settings a linear tone curve rather than gamma encoding is used, but this would apply to JPEG but not raw (NEF) which uses a linear output.

Regards,

Bill
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 15, 2017, 04:26:03 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4494/37442523320_3236564491_o.jpg)
D850 + 70-200 f2.8 E FL

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: 32BT on October 15, 2017, 08:53:50 AM
[ x ] tacksharp    8)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 16, 2017, 11:10:26 PM
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850

Pretty positive review.

I am still very happy about my D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 19, 2017, 08:13:03 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4446/37706621491_9e49acc43a_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4477/37657704646_274dd37ef0_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4500/37712259852_a456da24c1_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: Ray on October 19, 2017, 09:25:39 PM
Amazingly sharp and detailed, Bernard. Good enough for at least 2 meter x 3 meter prints. Have you got enough wall space?  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 19, 2017, 10:04:12 PM
Amazingly sharp and detailed, Bernard. Good enough for at least 2 meter x 3 meter prints. Have you got enough wall space?  ;)

All that handheld with the horrible 24-70mm f2.8 VR and that archaic inherently inaccurate DSLR autofocus... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: jeremyrh on October 20, 2017, 10:56:05 AM
Two times jealous - you got your 850 and you went to Greece. Great shots!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 22, 2017, 08:06:44 AM
Two times jealous - you got your 850 and you went to Greece. Great shots!!

Thanks, I understand twice.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: cgarnerhome on October 23, 2017, 12:01:24 PM
I just finished a trip to the coast of Oregon.  I had a specific project in mind that I was able to make some progress on.  I wanted to create portraits of sea stacks that I could assemble into a panel of images.  Ultimately, I wanted 9 total images of solo stacks. While I made some progress, the rain cut significantly into my shooting days.  Unfortunately, I damaged my XF100 and was unable to shoot with it for the bulk of the trip.  Fortunately, I had the Nikon 850 as my backup.  Almost all of the solo stacks were shot with the 850.  I will post some of the images shot with the 850 under the 850 thread.  All of these images are drafts as they have had only some processing on my laptop but you get the idea.
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: cgarnerhome on October 23, 2017, 12:03:27 PM
Other images from 850
Title: Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
Post by: cgarnerhome on October 23, 2017, 12:06:06 PM
I should add a note regarding the image of the crashing wave at Shore Acres.  If you look under the tree on the far right you will see a solo person that gives the image some scale.  Unfortunately, it was pouring down rain that day.  The 850 did well in the rain!