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Author Topic: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development  (Read 929228 times)

kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #480 on: September 21, 2017, 05:23:52 am »

...
(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus....

hello Micheal- very nice photo indeed...

about focussing with live view- maybe it is more difficult because you see the that lens sharpness is not all that absolute IOW the liveview images shows a good image.

- i am curious to see if you like the 6fps silent focusstacking option on the d850.
I know you do not have so many AF lenses but maybe one...
I think that could make focusstacking a whole lot more pleasant and less time consuming. + sharper for you do not need to touch the camera.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:29:42 am by kers »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #481 on: September 21, 2017, 08:16:52 am »

It is always nice to see that cameras are being put to good use along their intended purpose away from the theoretical negative discussions about brand future.

It's no longer theoretical when it's your lens collection on the line. How useful were Canon FD lenses, and how much were they worth, once Canon stopped making FD bodies? If you wanted to switch, you'd have had to buy a whole new system, while selling your old lenses for very little.

Current thoughts on Nikonrumors suggest that Nikon is working on an adapter, rather like the Sony A-to-E adapter, which suggests that the mirrorless camera won't use the F-mount, or at least not with the same flange distance. Looking at both the Canon EF-to-EFM and Sony A-to-E adapters, lens performance using adapted lenses is far poorer than performance using native mirrorless lenses designed for the system. There's no reason to think a Nikon adapter would be any different - for good performance, you'd need to switch your lens collection to Nikon mirrorless lenses.

If you get the Sony mirrorless system now, you'd still be able to sell them for nearly full price if Nikon or Canon bring out a better mirrorless line - FE would still be a current, well-supported lens mount. Conversely, if you bought into the current EF or F-mount now, you could almost guarantee that you'd be stuck using them via an adapter, or with greatly reduced performance, in a few years' time, and the lenses would have little resale value should you want to update to new, mirrorless lenses from Canon or Nikon.

I don't care about the future of Nikon, Sony, Canon or any other company. I care about the future viability of my equipment. And having to replace it all in a few years' time in order to maintain good performance, while losing most of the resale value, doesn't qualify as 'viable'.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #482 on: September 21, 2017, 09:04:27 am »

Shadowblade,

I am really not sure why you feel the urge to defend you purchasing strategy again and again. Your point has been made 10 times already, anyone with an IQ above 40 should have understood by now.

On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

Why not just accept the fact that we have different needs, are in a different context and are just trying to maximize the technical quality of our work by staying close to the cutting edge of technology without that much interest in the integral of the money we will have to spend in the process?

The fact that Sony will be better in 2 years is totally irrelevant to my photography today. It does impact the economical aspect for sure, but this extra cost is affordable to me at the moment.

Cheers,
Bernard

John Cothron

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #483 on: September 21, 2017, 09:37:13 am »

It's no longer theoretical when it's your lens collection on the line. How useful were Canon FD lenses, and how much were they worth, once Canon stopped making FD bodies? If you wanted to switch, you'd have had to buy a whole new system, while selling your old lenses for very little.

Current thoughts on Nikonrumors suggest that Nikon is working on an adapter, rather like the Sony A-to-E adapter, which suggests that the mirrorless camera won't use the F-mount, or at least not with the same flange distance. Looking at both the Canon EF-to-EFM and Sony A-to-E adapters, lens performance using adapted lenses is far poorer than performance using native mirrorless lenses designed for the system. There's no reason to think a Nikon adapter would be any different - for good performance, you'd need to switch your lens collection to Nikon mirrorless lenses.

If you get the Sony mirrorless system now, you'd still be able to sell them for nearly full price if Nikon or Canon bring out a better mirrorless line - FE would still be a current, well-supported lens mount. Conversely, if you bought into the current EF or F-mount now, you could almost guarantee that you'd be stuck using them via an adapter, or with greatly reduced performance, in a few years' time, and the lenses would have little resale value should you want to update to new, mirrorless lenses from Canon or Nikon.

I don't care about the future of Nikon, Sony, Canon or any other company. I care about the future viability of my equipment. And having to replace it all in a few years' time in order to maintain good performance, while losing most of the resale value, doesn't qualify as 'viable'.

While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.
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hogloff

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #484 on: September 21, 2017, 09:51:45 am »

While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.

One big drive to mirrorless for manufacturers is cost. Surely the cost to build a mirrorless camera ( electronic device ) is much less than the equivalent DSLR ( mechanical ). In a shrinking market, costs become very important as manufacturers strive to keep profitable. I would think Sony's profit from a A9 sale is much greater than Nikon's profit from a D850 sale.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #485 on: September 21, 2017, 11:09:23 am »

While I don't disagree with your theory on adapter vs native lens quality I still fail to see how this industry change to mirrorless is a foregone conclusion.  Other than my little Canon M3 I've never used one, certainly not of the quality of the current Sony offerings.  That being said, I have no intention of switching to mirrorless at the current time or in the foreseeable future.  Personally I love having an optical viewfinder and have yet to see any reason to change that.  I use LV quite a bit as well, but not for the same purpose.

What are the definitive reasons that a lot of people believe DSLR's are just going to go away?  Based on what I've read, there are still some issues with EVF view finders.  I understand some people prefer the smaller/lighter bodies but I also see many people that want their OVF and aren't bothered at all by current DSLR body size and weight.  Myself being one of them.

So what you are saying is true in concept, but it only applies if manufactures stop making DSLR bodies, and I for one am having a hard time seeing that happen.  I shoot Canon, and while that gives me some bias, it is only because of my current lens collection.  Sony has some great bodies, not my style, but I can acknowledge that they are great bodies.  Nikon is the same, they have some great bodies.  So does Canon.  There are small differences in high ISO capability and low ISO DR but those windows are pretty narrow these days.  That leaves (for the mirrorless argument) that the EVF and weight/size being the primary motivators for going that direction and I just don't see it as a preference that will take over the market completely.

Sensors can be the same whether the camera is an SLR, mirrorless body or fixed-lens point-and-shoot. The three main advantages of mirrorless are EVF vs OVF, AF and video.

Once you can make an EVF with imperceptible lag (which has now been achieved), EVFs are a lot more capable than OVFs. They work a lot better in the dark - once it gets dark enough, you can't see anything through an OVF, while the EVF can just increase the gain. You get some noise, but at least you can still compose and focus. They can give true, through-the-sensor feedback, giving a true representation of what the final image will look like, brightness, colour, contrast and all - rather than just composition, they also give information about exposure (an SLR's meter can give you a weighted average, but doesn't tell you anything about dynamic range or whether parts of the scene will be blown out). They can be configured to display things like histograms, shadow/highlight alerts, focal planes, etc. The most you can do with an OVF is make it big and bright, and you can do that with an EVF too (and make it even bigger and brighter, along with all the other advantages).

Mirrorless AF has a lot more potential than SLR AF. For the most part, SLR AF is 'dumb' AF - it focuses on whatever it's pointed at and tracks it based on change in distance, rather than by subject recognition. There are some AI-based modes, using a low-resolution metering sensor, but these are limited, and restricted to the part of the frame covered by the AF system. In contrast, a through-the-sensor AF system can use both 'dumb' (PDAF and basic CDAF) and 'smart' AF systems (subject recognition, of which face detection is just the most basic) equally well. The 'smart' tracking systems are only going to get smarter and more versatile as processors and software improve, while you can't really make the 'dumb' systems much better - they already pretty much focus instantly on what you point them at.

Connected to AF, mirrorless video also has a lot more potential than SLR video. With the exception of cameras with a pellicle mirror, video is always shot in mirrorless mode - a mirror just can't move fast enough to shoot 25fps or higher. The camera is then reliant on on-sensor AF for focus - without the mirror in place, the off-sensor AF can't work. Thing is, all a mirrorless body's AF is on-sensor - the AF system remains fully functional while shooting video. The SLR is reduced to whatever on-sensor AF capabilities it has - with the exception of Canon's dual pixel sensors, this is usually not a great deal. This also has an impact on action stills photography. An 8k video camera capable of full AF capability while shooting video is also a fully-functional 39MP/25fps action camera. And that's not very far away.

Until this year, the main technological (rather than cultural, e.g. the insistence by some that mirrorless cameras need to be small) holdups of mirrorless bodies have been slow AF and EVF lag. Both have now been addressed.

How much better can you make an SLR, that you can't also do in a mirrorless body (i.e. not the sensor, since that can go into any camera)? Not a great deal. So, once mirrorless definitively surpasses SLRs in all these things (they have already reached parity with the top tier of SLRs), manufacturers are likely to mostly stop developing SLRs. There just won't be any reason to make them, apart from backward compatibility with vintage lenses (which Nikon/Canon won't be selling any more, so won't be making profit from) and appealing to an ever-decreasing cohort of technological Luddites.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #486 on: September 21, 2017, 11:26:22 am »

On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

I thought Sony fanboi-ism is the new LuLa editorial policy?
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #487 on: September 21, 2017, 11:28:33 am »

Shadowblade,

I am really not sure why you feel the urge to defend you purchasing strategy again and again. Your point has been made 10 times already, anyone with an IQ above 40 should have understood by now.

On the other hand I am not sure to understand what you expect to gain by telling us, purchaser of a new Nikon body, how much better it is to buy Sony? ;)

Why not just accept the fact that we have different needs, are in a different context and are just trying to maximize the technical quality of our work by staying close to the cutting edge of technology without that much interest in the integral of the money we will have to spend in the process?

The fact that Sony will be better in 2 years is totally irrelevant to my photography today. It does impact the economical aspect for sure, but this extra cost is affordable to me at the moment.

Cheers,
Bernard

That's because you already own Nikon glass. For you, it's a sunk cost. Even if the new camera had been garbage, you'd still be stuck with the glass. With the D850 being an improvement over every other Nikon body for every purpose other than shooting 12-14fps, you may as well use it for one more generation.

It's relevant for anyone who isn't already shooting Nikon, who would have to buy into a new system.

What if the new camera hadn't been the D850, but the 5Ds2, accompanied by a few updated Canon L-lenses that make their Nikon equivalents look outdated? What if the D810 had the 5Ds's dynamic range and there was no word on its replacement, save that it wasn't due for another 18 months or so (with no word as to its capabilities)? Would you go out and buy $50k worth of Canon glass today, knowing that you'd probably have to replace it in five years' time if you wanted to retain your AF capability and use future bodies to their full potential? Or would you be looking for a system with likely greater longevity, whose components you could easily sell even if someone else came up with a better mirrorless system in the future?
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #488 on: September 21, 2017, 11:36:13 am »

I agree with Bernard. No offense, but most of the banter here is by now so tedious. How about we shoot with the D850 and show some of what it can do? Let's see some photos please.


P.S.
I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:39:49 am by Michael Erlewine »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #489 on: September 21, 2017, 11:45:03 am »

P.S.
I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.

May have to do with the Raw converter?

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #490 on: September 21, 2017, 11:51:14 am »

I find that I dare not expose-to-the-right as much as with the D810. Anyone else notice this and what does it mean? If I do, it starts to wash out a bit. I just will dial down. Any thoughts.

Have you looked at the raw files to see if they're clipped?

(still waiting on my D850)

Jim

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #491 on: September 21, 2017, 12:12:01 pm »

Have you looked at the raw files to see if they're clipped?

(still waiting on my D850)

Jim

I have not looked, but I can see where they are clipped or near clipping, so I'm working with that just now. I seems like just an adjustment in processing, and not exposing AS MUCH to the right as I have been. But this is all new too.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #492 on: September 21, 2017, 12:15:04 pm »

I have not looked, but I can see where they are clipped or near clipping, so I'm working with that just now. I seems like just an adjustment in processing, and not exposing AS MUCH to the right as I have been. But this is all new too.

If you're looking in your raw developer, I recommend taking a look with RawDigger, or, as a second choice, FRV. Some (Most? All?) raw developers can show clipping in the image at default settings when the input file is not clipped.

Jim

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #493 on: September 21, 2017, 02:25:13 pm »

May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #494 on: September 21, 2017, 03:20:48 pm »

May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?

I'm looking in an iPhone 7 screen, not the best to evaluate photos, d810 looks a bit more warmer...


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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #495 on: September 21, 2017, 03:22:41 pm »

I like The Camera Store reviews, so here you have the 30 minute review of the D850 - https://youtu.be/A_OMIRHXynQ


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henrikfoto

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #496 on: September 21, 2017, 03:30:21 pm »

May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?



To my eyes the 850 is cleaner both in colours and the drawing.
Both are nice, but the new one is clearly better :).
Did you use the electronic shutter on the 850?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 03:34:33 pm by henrikfoto »
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capital

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #497 on: September 21, 2017, 06:57:00 pm »

Regarding the comparison in post #496, the two images have slightly different perspectives, making a direct comparison difficult. Even more so since the overall image area increase is about 10MP. Imaging Resource had some direct comparisons of the cameras you discussed, and you can see the advantage of larger sensors only in certain image detail regimes, even then, it is modest.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #498 on: September 22, 2017, 01:22:44 pm »

Starting to get more of a handle on the Nikon D850.  I like it! I can see I will learn to even love it.

Turning off all sound in the camera as part of LiveView is way more wonderful than I would have imagined. Silence. Great for stacking photos and progress is as easy as watching the Live View screen visibly changing. I will use it ALL the time.

The tilt-able screen in LiveView is helpful, but would be more helpful if it moved four ways instead of two, but not any real worry.

To me, it looks like Nikon came out of the closet and threw everything they had this baby in an attempt to reinstate themselves. IMO, it works. I have (at least for now) lost ALL interest in medium-format cameras and ALL need for the mirrorless cameras with their  EVFs. The improved LiveView of the D850 is enough RVF to allow me to do what I need to do until.... someday... something much superior comes along.

And what an incredible bargain in price! Compared to the 15-20 thousand dollars to properly tool up for Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, spending about $3400 for the D850 (with a couple of extra batteries) is a steal. And have not even begun to explore this cameraís use in sports or nightclubs, which I will use for music acts, since I am around them a lot.

Not owning many AF lenses, the little focus-stacking option (which I think just produces JPGs!) is a non-starter for me. I like to roll my own stacks, thank you, and use the best lenses I have, many of which are not Nikkors. And without a raw option for this, I would never use this feature. But some I imagine will.

The D850 seems a tad heavier than the D810, but not enough to consider. The new more deeply-indented grip is nice, but I am always on a tripod, so not important to me. The batteries are said to last longer than those for the D810, but even these empty too fast for my taste.

I have an L-Bracket coming soon from RRS, so until then I am using the one for the D810. Works well enough for now. I never used the on-board flash on the D810, so would much prefer to have the larger OVF viewfinder, but will never use that... Well, maybe sometimes.

There are a great many features I have yet to try out, but my bread & butter settings are all there. The additional joystick I have no use for, already using the multi-selector button to move around. And, of course, setting my multi-selector-center button to magnify is the first thing I did. Works fine.

Iím sure readers know all of this, so Ií am just confessing my Yes for this camera.

Here is a shot with the APO-El Nikkor 105mm on the Cambo Actus of some New England Asters.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #499 on: September 22, 2017, 01:39:25 pm »

And what an incredible bargain in price! Compared to the 15-20 thousand dollars to properly tool up for Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, spending about $3400 for the D850 (with a couple of extra batteries) is a steal. And have not even begun to explore this cameraís use in sports or nightclubs, which I will use for music acts, since I am around them a lot.
If only Nikon had a trade in upgrade program!!!!!  Hard for me to pull the string on this one as I've only had my 810 for a couple of years.
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