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Author Topic: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?  (Read 35841 times)

DP

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2018, 04:46:48 pm »

Thanks David.
I tried the various steps mentioned in the document :
- Disable the use of OpenCL by C1 (in the Preferences), restart C1: no change.
- Reenable the use of OpenCL, quit C1, delete relevant files to force revuilding of OpenCL kernels (I'm on a Mac), restart C1: no change.
- OpenCL is indeed used, as shown by the manoeuver described in the document (using the focus mask).

I would say OpenCL is not the culprit.

drivers (version) matter too (not that it is the reason, but don't discount that part)... what is your card ?
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2018, 04:56:15 pm »

I'm on a Mac Pro (2013) with 2 AMD FirePro D300 cards, the driver is part of Mac OS X (10.13.6).
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2018, 04:59:17 pm »

Thanks to the information mentioned by DP, I think the issue for me can be narrowed down to the lower quality of the preview at "fit" size.
Specifically, I tried the following:
- Image displayed at "to fit" size, with 90px margins: the preview (set to 640px in the preferences, and rebuilt) is not "blurry".
- When clicking on the zoom button with the alt key down, it is possible to specific finer steps than jumping directly from "To fit" (which corresponds in this case to 25%) to 33%; however the zoom is only maintained while the mouse button is down, after that it jumps to the closer step. If I do this (maintain the button pressed), and take a screen capture while doing it, I can get a screen capture of the preview at 29 or 30%, so as to remain as close as possible in size to the "to fit" preview.

See the previews below: I would say that the "30%" preview is OK, while the "to fit" preview is not.

Thus: It would seem that there is a problem in the generation of the "to fit" view (and this whatever the size of the preview).
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2018, 05:01:15 pm »

Forgot to mention: in both cases, no sharpening applied, and no recipe proofing.
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DP

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2018, 05:10:23 pm »

Forgot to mention: in both cases, no sharpening applied, and no recipe proofing.

may be a platform (somehow the code differs) ? I am on Windows 10 x 64, you are on OSX ... also just in case my card is NVidia GTX870M, yours are AMD
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DP

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #125 on: December 20, 2018, 05:15:11 pm »

Forgot to mention: in both cases, no sharpening applied, and no recipe proofing.

try to switch off "proof margin" !
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #126 on: December 20, 2018, 05:17:21 pm »

Quite possible.

But I think you did not try exactly the same thing I did: you changed the size of C1's window, what I did was switch the zoom button from "to fit" to the next available size (the steps are smaller if you press alt while doing so, but you have to maintain the button down to keep at that size). Do you confirm that while doing so you don't see any difference in crispness?

I might also try to install C1 on a Windows 10 virtual machine (of course the graphic card will be the same, but C1's resizing algorithm on Windows may differ)…

PS: regarding the margin, I tried with and without, same problem.
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DP

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #127 on: December 20, 2018, 05:32:59 pm »

But I think you did not try exactly the same thing I did: you changed the size of C1's window, what I did was switch the zoom button from "to fit" to the next available size (the steps are smaller if you press alt while doing so, but you have to maintain the button down to keep at that size). Do you confirm that while doing so you don't see any difference in crispness?

yes, I tried to change zoom smoothly from "fit" onwards using ALT+mouse too ... and acuity was in place once C1 finishes redrawing for each step... try to switch off the "proof margin" - it seems to me now that it is where the issue is @ "fit" size
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #128 on: December 20, 2018, 06:15:37 pm »

Yes, for me too acuity was there at each step - except the first one, i.e. "To fit".

I tried without proof margin, same behaviour.
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #129 on: December 20, 2018, 06:19:48 pm »

I installed C1 v12 as a demo on a Windows 10 64bits VM; and imported the same picture I used in the tests above.
I think I am getting the same result… but my eyes are getting tired, it is past midnight here…

Tomorrow is another day.
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #130 on: December 21, 2018, 05:21:34 am »

Well, I don't know if I see the same thing on Windows or not. Capture One is so slow in the virtual machine as to make any test extremely difficult (the graphic card is not used apparently) - I give up.

Anyway, I will open a case with Phase One with the following observations (and some screenshots):
(Mac OS X 10.13.6, Mac Pro Late 2013 with 2xAMD FirePro D300 2048 MB)

Previews at "fit" size not crisp
- The problem seems to be that previews at the "Fit" setting are not really crisp.
- To ensure that previews are rebuilt each time on my 27" monitor, I have set the preview size at 640px in the Preferences, and rebuilt the preview of my test picture.
- Then, if I view the picture at "Fit" size, the preview is sub par, somehow blurry.
- If I increase the magnification to 33%, I see the preview beeing redrawn and now it is crisp.
- If I return to "Fit" (corresponding to 25%), no redrawing seems to occur, the preview just gets blurry again.
- If I increase the magnification while keeping the alt key down, at a setting of 29% (the smallest I can get to, in order to be as close to possible to the size of the picture at the "Fit" setting) I see again the preview beeing redrawn and now it is crisp (to see this, I have to keep the mouse down, otherwise the magnification snaps to the next setting).
- These observations are verified whether there is a proof margin or not, i.e. at different display sizes for the "Fit" setting.

To check for a possible involvement of OpenCL, I tried the various steps mentioned in document KB 1721:
- Disable the use of OpenCL by Capture One (in the Preferences), restart Capture One: no change.
- Reenable the use of OpenCL, quit Capture One, delete relevant files to force revuilding of OpenCL kernels (I'm on a Mac), restart Capture One: no change.
- OpenCL is indeed used, as shown by the manoeuvre described in the document (using the focus mask).
I would say OpenCL is not the culprit.

Thus, my conclusion would be that there is an issue (on Mac at least) with the redrawing (or lack thereof) of the preview at "Fit" size.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #131 on: December 21, 2018, 06:46:47 am »

Well, I don't know if I see the same thing on Windows or not. Capture One is so slow in the virtual machine as to make any test extremely difficult (the graphic card is not used apparently) - I give up.

Anyway, I will open a case with Phase One with the following observations (and some screenshots):
(Mac OS X 10.13.6, Mac Pro Late 2013 with 2xAMD FirePro D300 2048 MB)

[...]

Thus, my conclusion would be that there is an issue (on Mac at least) with the redrawing (or lack thereof) of the preview at "Fit" size.

Hi, seems like a useful analysis for the Support team at Phase One.
Opening a support case and sharing those findings will also help others that happen to be affected.

Cheers,
Bart
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2018, 07:41:52 am »

Thanks Bart. I have opened a support case, we'll see…  :)
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2018, 09:27:51 am »

After some exchanges with Phase One support (I even sent them a screen recording), they say that I am doing everything right, they are creating a bug report / feature request to have this improved for a sharper preview from the raw.

Let's hope for an improvement in a future update.
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TeeKay

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #134 on: December 25, 2018, 11:19:51 pm »

After some exchanges with Phase One support (I even sent them a screen recording), they say that I am doing everything right, they are creating a bug report / feature request to have this improved for a sharper preview from the raw.
First, thanks a lot for creating a detailed support case.

Second, don't get your hopes too high. This issue has existed at least since version 9.
I created a respective support case a long time ago with screenshots, exported images, etc.
I had some dialogue with the support team and appreciate the steps that have been taken (e.g., the Proofing option), but a proper solution is still missing.
I am rather certain that this "Fit" view deficiency is not regarded as a bug by Phase One. I believe they regard the solution as a compromise between accuracy and efficiency that is "good enough". Apparently it is good enough indeed for many because I'm not seeing mass protests. I doubt that the non-complainers see a different results, I believe they just don't have the same expectation towards a "Fit" preview.

The fact that this basic requirement (useful renderings at "Fit" size) has not been addressed for version 12 and efforts have instead been spent on changes/additions that almost seem obscure in comparison, does not instil confidence that we'll see a fix anytime soon, AFAIC.

I can only encourage everyone who notices how blurry "Fit" renderings can be at times (not due to bug, not to C1 needing a restart, just the regular lack of crispness which contrasts to the rendering at magnification levels 30% or higher) to create a support case. I believe Phase One should have ample detailed support cases that include evidence already that a quick note should be sufficient perhaps with a pointer to this thread.

Here's to hoping that the issue will be fixed some day. I realise that an optimal solution (which has to take efficiency in both preview generation times and preview storage into account) is not trivial, but the current situation could be easily improved by taking the user's standard preview size into account and optimise generation for that instead of one of the standard preview sizes made available by C1.

Personally, I don't see myself upgrading before the issue has been fixed. Yes, having radial masks, etc. would be nice, but I won't spend the substantial upgrade fee to be left with the same preview issues as before.

P.S.: I'm experiencing the issue on a Windows machine. The fact that you are seeing it on a Mac corroborates the notion that this is not a bug but rather a consequence of how "Fit" previews are handled by C1.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 11:23:59 pm by TeeKay »
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #135 on: December 26, 2018, 04:10:11 am »

Thanks TeeKay.
Let's hope for an improvement, but as you say, let's not get our hopes too high.
I confirm that the phenomenon is also present on Windows (as tested on a Win 7 virtual machine on the Mac).

For my part, I find this issue so unpleasant in my use of Capture One that I am almost ready to abandon the software and have started looking for another workflow. That's saying a lot!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2018, 05:27:26 am »

Thanks TeeKay.
Let's hope for an improvement, but as you say, let's not get our hopes too high.
I confirm that the phenomenon is also present on Windows (as tested on a Win 7 virtual machine on the Mac).

Hi Bernard,

That still means it could be Mac related, for I do not have these blurry previews on my Windows machines (did not with W7, and do not with W10). The Mac uses a different graphics pipeline that is partly integrated into the OS. That may also explain why it apparently takes a long time to address the issue.

Cheers,
Bart
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bcf

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2018, 05:31:54 am »

Hi Bart,
You are right, using a VM on the Mac is not proof that the problem affects Windows as well...
TeeKay seems to experience it though. We'll see.
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TeeKay

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2018, 03:11:08 am »

Hi Bart,

That still means it could be Mac related, for I do not have these blurry previews on my Windows machines (did not with W7, and do not with W10).
It is most certainly not confined to Mac as I experience the issue on two different Windows machines.

One, running Win7 and an AMD graphics card, the other, running Win10 and an Nvidia card.
I'm by far not the only one experiencing the problem under Windows, see member "Dinarius" in this thread for instance.

I don't think I'm being indiscreet by telling you that I got a strong sense from my conversation with Phase One support, that they are aware of the issue and just haven't found a good way of addressing it yet.

As to whether I'd see the same issue on your systems, I cannot say. As I stated before, I regard it as a possibility that some people don't have the same expectations towards previews. It is also possible that running a different monitor resolution (say 4K) results in a different outcome. All my problems occur on Full HD 1920x1200 displays (three different ones).

It is almost certain that the problems are not caused by certain system incompatibilities but are "as designed".

Let's hope that there will be progress at some point in time (trying to forget the fact that this thread started in June 2017).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 03:16:20 am by TeeKay »
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Beerfueled

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Re: Why are the previews of Capture One Pro of such low quality?
« Reply #139 on: December 27, 2018, 09:00:23 am »

I'm by far not the only one experiencing the problem under Windows, see member "Dinarius" in this thread for instance.

Also see my reply #76 in this thread, describing my own experiences (Win 10) and with side-by-side screenshots from Capture One and Lr.

-larry
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