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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 146483 times)

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #320 on: April 04, 2017, 02:36:43 pm »

Here are some people working on storage systems http://www.greenlabskive.dk -- take a look at what they do.

Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #321 on: April 04, 2017, 05:45:46 pm »

Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #322 on: April 04, 2017, 06:15:21 pm »

In Norway thet have a lot of EV's and here is a video showing just some of the infrastructure they have now for charging. A bit of the future for most places https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k73-rYe82lI

WOW!  50 kW!

Norway continues to make the rest of us look like idiots.
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Farmer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #323 on: April 04, 2017, 06:29:54 pm »

Maybe they don't spend money in Australia but they certainly do in the US.  A large amount of money has been spend over the years in the US building dams and levees in rivers prone to flooding.  this link might be instructive:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mississippi_Flood_of_1927  I'm sure that this was far worse of a disaster than any that has occurred in Australia.  There are other flood control districts in the US as well.

It's important to understand that, whilst Australia is roughly the same size as continental United States, the total water flowing through all of our waterways, is less than the Mississippi.

The vast majority of the country is flood plains, with a majority of that being desert or very arid.  With a population only a fraction of that of the US, but with a similar geographical size, we can have floods that are massive without really affecting anyone.  In the late 80's there was a flood water about the size of western Europe and it affected less than 10,000 people.  It just depends where it happens.

So, anyway, it's hard to build dams and levies for rivers which, most of the time, literally have no water in them.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #324 on: April 04, 2017, 07:24:57 pm »

WOW!  50 kW!

Norway continues to make the rest of us look like idiots.

That's just the publc common fast chargers. The Tesla superchargers are up to 135 KW. There are chargers all over Norway up to the northern part. Pretty impressive (both Tesla and the various public chargers).

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #325 on: April 04, 2017, 08:10:19 pm »

It's important to understand that, whilst Australia is roughly the same size as continental United States, the total water flowing through all of our waterways, is less than the Mississippi.

The vast majority of the country is flood plains, with a majority of that being desert or very arid.  With a population only a fraction of that of the US, but with a similar geographical size, we can have floods that are massive without really affecting anyone.  In the late 80's there was a flood water about the size of western Europe and it affected less than 10,000 people.  It just depends where it happens.

So, anyway, it's hard to build dams and levies for rivers which, most of the time, literally have no water in them.

As I understand, the main difficulties in building more dams in Queensland, where I live, are the objections from the environmentalists and the objections from the local family farmers whose properties extend into the location of the proposed dams. Such families often have been farming at those locations for generations, and they naturally get very emotional about being forced to sell their property to the government so a new dam can be built.

If there's an upwelling of public sympathy for the farmers, and a deep concern for certain species of fish that might become extinct because of a disruption to the river flow, then a government will not take the risk of losing the next election.

The most recent disastrous flooding of Brisbane and surrounding areas, in 2010/11, which caused at least 10 billion dollars worth of damage and the loss of 35 lives, would probably have been significant reduced if two dam proposals, the Wolfdene and Traveston dams, had not been blocked due to environmental concerns.

"The 2010–11 wet season brought unprecedented rain and flooding to Queensland, resulting in 35 people tragically losing their lives and the declaration of 78% of the state as a disaster zone."

Ironically, one of the objections to the construction of the Traveston dam was a concern about a resulting increase in greenhouse gasses.

"The longer the water level is low between fills, the more vegetation regeneration occurs. There is no escaping the fact that on an average annual basis large volumes of methane are produced when this vegetation rots. Methane is more than twenty times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2(Carbon dioxide)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveston_Crossing_Dam

It seems we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  ;)

Mind you, it's very generous of us to sacrifice are own lives and wealth in order to keep certain species of fish alive.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 08:31:54 pm by Ray »
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #326 on: April 04, 2017, 08:24:45 pm »

Not really solved, yet. First, at best a modern coal plant has reduced SO2 and NOx emissions, not zero emissions. Second, not all power plants are modern. Also, the Trump Administration has, instead of creating additional incentives for upgrading, relaxed the restrictions for existing (incl. older) powerplants and infrastructure.

True. One shouldn't exaggerate. I meant the harmful emission during the burning process have been reduced to negligible levels. It's difficult to get precise figures but it is claimed that the latest Ultra-supercritical plants in Japan emit 50% less SOx, 80% less NOx, 70% less particulate, and 17% less CO2 than the older subcritical units that were replaced.

For AGW alarmists it seems that the most worrying aspect is that the emissions of that clean, odourless gas called CO2, which is so much loved by plants, are reduced by only 17%. I guess that's the killer.  ;)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #327 on: April 04, 2017, 08:28:49 pm »

For AGW alarmists it seems that the most worrying aspect is that the emissions of that clean, odourless gas called CO2, which is so much loved by plants, are reduced by only 17%. I guess that's the killer.  ;)

It nearly was the killer.  Remember Apollo 13?  Inadequate CO2 scrubbing was nearly the end of those boys.
Just because plants love it doesn't mean it's good for everything.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #328 on: April 04, 2017, 09:53:45 pm »

It nearly was the killer.  Remember Apollo 13?  Inadequate CO2 scrubbing was nearly the end of those boys.
Just because plants love it doesn't mean it's good for everything.

Too much of anything can kill you. Even drinking too much water after completing a marathon, for example, can kill you. But examples of such extremes probably only cause worry to people suffering from OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), I imagine,

A gradual rise of CO2 levels from 0.028% to 0.04% over a couple of hundred years doesn't sound alarming to me.
The recommended dosage of Vitamin C to prevent conditions like scurvy is just 35mg per day, but larger doses up to as much as 2,000 mg per day, or more,  can have significant benefits. Many people regularly take a 500mg tablet every day, in addition to the amounts of Vitamin C they get from the food they eat which would be sufficient to prevent scurvy.

We should capitalize on things which have a potential benefit, not ban them.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #329 on: April 04, 2017, 11:34:36 pm »

"Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers."

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/27/12107.full.pdf

Okay! That might appear very sound evidence to some, that the 97% consensus is true (for people working in the government-funded institutes). However, let's reverse the situation and imagine that the fossil fuel industries in general were to contribute funds to their own research centres, (which would increase the price of energy significantly, so they haven't done this for good reasons).

Do you imagine that such scientists, who are funded from fossil fuel producers, and who are writing papers which are peer reviewed by other scientists who are skeptical of the AGW hypothesis, would not also have a 97% consensus that CO2 emissions are not a significant problem?

People will tend to choose their preferred discipline, as they progress through the educational system, based upon their emotional experiences.

A young adult might choose to be a doctor because of the emotional effect of witnessing the suffering of loved family members who got sick but were not cured.

It is reasonable to presume that people who choose Climatology, or related disciplines as their speciality, are already emotionally convinced that rising CO2 levels are a problem. What is the emotional drive? That's the question.

At least the site you linked to did make the following statements.
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Publication and citation analyses are not perfect indicators of researcher credibility...


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Regarding the influence of citation patterns, we acknowledge that it is difficult to quantify potential biases of self-citation or clique citation in the analysis presented here...

But they justified their conclusion on the basis of the large number of papers which they examined, but as far as I detected, they made no mention of the sources of the funding.

There is no completely impartial organisation which funds climate research, as far as I know.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #330 on: April 05, 2017, 12:07:02 am »

If as you suggest, the fossil fuel industry were to fund climate research, yes, it's reasonable that that research would benefit the funders. That's what always happens when industries hire scientists. Just as the tobacco guys did with their "research".

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There is no completely impartial organisation which funds climate research, as far as I know.

It's perfectly obvious who stands to gain from the deniers.  The fossil fuel people. But who's hiring the 97% of climate scientists who are warning us of imminent disaster? Who's paying for their research? And why?  Just to stir up trouble?  What do they have to gain? Why are they not "impartial"?

And please, please, please don't try to tell us that they're doing it simply to ensure continued funding.  They're not that venal.  Not all of them.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #331 on: April 05, 2017, 12:39:04 am »

Ray, in Australia where you live, are climate changes different because you're in the Southern Hemisphere? 

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #332 on: April 05, 2017, 01:21:02 am »

It's perfectly obvious who stands to gain from the deniers.  The fossil fuel people. But who's hiring the 97% of climate scientists who are warning us of imminent disaster? Who's paying for their research? And why?  Just to stir up trouble?  What do they have to gain? Why are they not "impartial"?

The people are paying for the research. You and me. Governments get their funding from taxes, and part of those taxes goes towards funding the climate Research centres.

The question is, how did all this start?

Pollution from fossil fuels (real pollution such as SO2, Nitrogen oxides, Particulate Carbon etc,) has been a problem since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Thick smog during wintery days, which prevented one from seeing anything in the distance, was a common occurrence in England when I was a child.

But this smog was not caused by CO2, but mainly particulate carbon. As emission controls improved, the smog ceased to be a problem. The haze I occasionally see in Australia is not due to particulate carbon from coal-fired power stations, but from bush fires, and also from petrol and diesel driven vehicles in the city.

I'm all in favour of electric vehicles, but I suspect that a major reason why they have not developed as quickly as they should have, is because they would have created a greater demand for electricity produced by conventional coal-fired plants.

If you have to recharge your car battery from electricity supplied by the grid through conventional processes of burning fossil fuels, then the benefits of the so-called clean electric car are diminished. The argument can be made that any reduction in pollution from the exhaust fumes of petrol-driven cars, by using electric cars, are counteracted by the increased emissions from conventional sources of electricity because of the increased demand for electricity.

This is another example of how the scare about CO2 retards progress.

I remember vividly when I was a child in England around 65 years ago, the glass bottles of milk were delivered each morning to the house by electric-driven vehicles. The use of the electric vehicles was presumably because they were quieter and would not disturb people still asleep.

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And please, please, please don't try to tell us that they're doing it simply to ensure continued funding. They're not that venal. Not all of them.

That's probably true. Not all of them are that venal. Some, whilst doubting the claimed degree of significance attributed to CO2, might be of the view that the development of efficient renewables will eventually be of benefit to mankind, with regards to reductions of the 'real' pollutants, such as SO2, Nitrogen Oxides, particulate carbon, heavy metals and so on, and also protect us from a future catastrophe due to a crisis of diminishing fossil fuel reserves.

If someone enjoys their job, collecting data and examining tree rings in a beautiful landscape, taking photos with their DR-limited Canon camera  ;), and earning money to support their family, why should they become a whistle-blower and destroy their career?
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #333 on: April 05, 2017, 01:32:35 am »

Ray, in Australia where you live, are climate changes different because you're in the Southern Hemisphere?

Yes, I believe so. It can be a bit confusing. The typical El Nino event results in dry weather in Australia, and the corresponding La Nina results in wet weather. I believe in America, and South America, it is the opposite.

My understanding of the global climate is that there is always a balance. An excessively warm period in one part of the globe is offset by an unusually cold period in another part.

Whilst the Arctic might be melting in some respects, the Antarctic might be increasing its ice.

However, such events are short-term and might more correctly be described as weather variability. The longer term climate of different areas on the planet is of course different, and always changing. The Sahara Desert was a rich grassland about 10,000 years ago.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 06:14:19 am by Ray »
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DeanChriss

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #334 on: April 05, 2017, 06:11:47 am »

...
Whilst the Arctic might be melting in some respects, the Antarctic might be increasing its ice.

Google that. Antarctic ice is melting faster than anyone realized.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #335 on: April 05, 2017, 06:25:30 am »

Google that. Antarctic ice is melting faster than anyone realized.

Okay! I did. Is the following NASA site sufficiently authoritative for you?

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

 “Our main disagreement is for East Antarctica and the interior of West Antarctica – there, we see an ice gain that exceeds the losses in the other areas.”

I can cherry pick as well, ya know!  ;)
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Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #336 on: April 05, 2017, 06:51:31 am »

Virtual power plants in Australia http://www.sunverge.com/australia-modernizing-grid-impressive-pace-us/

And btw. interesting to see the US only as number 4 in installed solar power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country in 2015. Germany is number 2 after China! And wind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country and here the US is number 2 after China. China has grown both solar and wind enormously and more than any other country in the world.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 06:58:08 am by Hans Kruse »
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #337 on: April 05, 2017, 07:10:42 am »

Virtual power plants in Australia http://www.sunverge.com/australia-modernizing-grid-impressive-pace-us/

And btw. interesting to see the US only as number 4 in installed solar power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country in 2015. Germany is number 2 after China! And wind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country and here the US is number 2 after China. China has grown both solar and wind enormously and more than any other country in the world.

Hans,
There's been a lot of controversy recently in Australia about the issue of inadequate back-up power in states that rely heavily on solar and wind power, such as South Australia.

During recent heat waves there have been blackouts due to inadequate supplies to meet peak demand.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #338 on: April 05, 2017, 07:25:49 am »

True. One shouldn't exaggerate. I meant the harmful emission during the burning process have been reduced to negligible levels. It's difficult to get precise figures but it is claimed that the latest Ultra-supercritical plants in Japan emit 50% less SOx, 80% less NOx, 70% less particulate, and 17% less CO2 than the older subcritical units that were replaced.
The big effort to clean up US coal fired power plants took place several decades ago.  During the 1970s it was noted that lakes and streams in the eastern part of the US were becoming rapidly acidified from rainfall that carried sulfur and nitrogen oxides from the power plants.  This was harm fish as well as trees since the pH of the soil was changing.  Scrubbers were mandated to control those pollutants and at least that part of the problem was solved.  Particulate matter is also controlled because of mandates.  From those perspectives, coal burning is much cleaner than it was. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #339 on: April 05, 2017, 07:28:22 am »

If as you suggest, the fossil fuel industry were to fund climate research, yes, it's reasonable that that research would benefit the funders. That's what always happens when industries hire scientists. Just as the tobacco guys did with their "research".
ExxonMobil now has a very clear statement on climate change:  http://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/current-issues/climate-policy/climate-perspectives/our-position
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