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Author Topic: Re: Trump II  (Read 14210 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2017, 02:23:40 pm »

You mean "stealing"?  :~)

I have no doubt that the whole issue of the private email server, Hillary's poor handling of the issue and Comey's flailing about in public was clearly a major, perhaps the most important issue, surrounding her campaign as indicated by this CNN article.

No question...no doubt about it.

But a weird thing just popped into my head, while the email issue came out as the single most important issue against Hillary, there is no single negative issue against Trump because, well, there were so MANY negative issues against Trump that no single issue ever burbled up to the top.

I meant, go back and look at all the things Trump said and did that were seriously egregious yet they bounced off Trump like he was made of Teflon. None of the stuff that would have killed a typical politician seemed to make a dent.

Personally, I don't think there was one single defining reason why Hillary lost and Trump won other than the fact that just over 92 million people didn't vote in 2016. Why? Lots and lots of reasons but the fact that so many didn't vote meant that the winner was guarantied to be voted in by a minority, which I think is a sad commentary on our democracy these days.

Yes, stealing.  I duly appreciate your kindness in not only bringing to my attention an obvious gaff in my use of English grammar and diction, but providing the appropriate correction to my erroneous mistake. 

Insofar as your comment on Trump having so many negative issues, I absolutely agree, although you did read the part about some of the most dominate words associated with Trump were benign. 

Hillary made the email scandal what it was.  If she had owned up in the beginning, it would have been over by the conventions.  Her loss was not because 92M did not vote; that was merely a symptom.  The cause, HRC tremendously poorly ran campaign, of which how the email scandal was handled was a part of. 

You also throw in Trump's fire brand that no one really figured out how to run against.  I doubt Sanders would have stood a chance either.

Personally, I think only one politician would have stood a chance, and most likely would have beaten him, that being Biden. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 02:54:52 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2017, 05:49:19 pm »

  Trump will continue to get attacked because the biased media hates him.  Ok I get it.  Meanwhile he is doing things the country needs in my opinion.  He put Gorsuch on the court.  He has made allies and adversaries begin to respect us again after 8 years of Obama weakness.  That will help us internationally with trade, security, and other relations with foreign countries.  They may not like him, but that's ok.   He's still commander-in-chief of the armed forces and President/CEO.  Today, he again called for NATO to pay up to their faces.  And he sailed a destroyer within 12 miles right past the militarized islands China built in the South China Sea.  Finally a president with balls.

I was amazed by this today, not what he said, it was a long time coming, but to find out that we cover 72% of the total funding for NATO.  That is ridiculous!

Now I am for fairness, and I know the USA has the largest economy in the world plus the agreement states that all countries are to pay 2% of their GDP, but I doubt the GDP of the USA is 161% larger then all of the other countries of NATO combined. 

Thats right, we pay 2.61 times more into NATO then all of the other countries combined. 

(I have a lot of time on my hands right now.  Been raining for the last 7 days in NYC; going to rain tomorrow, Saturday, Monday and Tuesday too.  I had to reschedule 5 projects due to the weather.  It's been a wet start to the season so far.   >:(  )
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 05:52:28 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2017, 08:14:46 pm »

That's not true.

The US contributes 22.1446 of direct NATO costs as at January this year (the latest report I could find).

You are looking at total military expenditure - the US does not allocate all of its military expenditure to NATO, obviously.

This is a common bit of "fake news" peddled about this subject.

CNN is fake news I guess. 

NATO Spending

Anyway, I may have misspoken, however my merit was not wrong, far from it. 

Total military spending under NATO nations (by treaty) should be at least 2% of GDP; NATO spending and others.  We spend 2.61 times more then all other NATO countries combined and several NATO countries are not spending the 2% they agreed upon. 

Countries are not living up to the agreement, which is the point I am making. 

I am tired of seeing European countries criticize us on healthcare while at the same time not paying their fair share in NATO, which they agreed upon. 

In my perfect world, the USA would go back to the 1930s isolationism.  Let other nations, separated from us, by two massive oceans, figure it out.  We are just spending too much on this. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 09:54:44 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2017, 10:36:57 pm »

It's misleading news.  On NATO, the US contributes 22.1446% of the total direct expenditure. Total defence expenditure by the US is more than NATO, but not the portion the US spends on NATO.

The 2% is a guideline (and 20% of that is to be spent on equipment), not a treaty requirement.  Still, I agree that all members should be hitting that target (with a tolerance of 0.1% for actuals versus planned).  But if you (and others) keep trying to make the point by repeating misleading data, all you do it weaken your argument.  It's being done to make the gap more dramatic, but it's quite simply wrong.

As to isolationism - well, those oceans are pretty small these days.

Okay, true, but still, I think it is unfair and something should be don't to correct.  We (USA) spend far too much defending other countries.  I think our involvement in international affairs never full normalized after WW2, and that has been compounded by our dependence on fossil fuels. 

Insofar as oceans, invasions require carriers, and carriers take time to cross oceans.  By the the time it takes a carrier to cross the ocean ... I'll be dead; missiles will have bombed the whole of the NE corridor.  (Quarter of the population lives between DC & Boston.)  But hopefully those who actually need to worry about it will have dealt with it long before they have landed. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 10:39:58 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2017, 08:17:14 am »

So, how are you reading the story?

According to IHS Jane’s Annual Defence Budgets Report the USA spent $633bn...the next 10 countries don't spend what the USA spends.

China                    $191.8bn
United Kingdom     $53.8bn
India                     $50.7bn
Saudi Arabia          $48.7bn
Russian Federation $48.5bn
France                   $44.4bn
Japan                    $41.7bn
Germany               $35.8bn
South Korea          $33.5bn
Australia               $26.8bn
                            $575.8bn

Why?
Are we really the world's policemen? Do we want to be?
Is our military industrial capability so incompetent that we have to spend 3X what China spends?


We spend what we spend on defense because "we" want to...imagine what the world could do if we spend the $1.57 trillion the world spends on defense on something that actually helps people...

Yeah, I know, there are lot's of "Evil Losers" and wing nut countries like North Korea and Iran...

Are you reading the story? 

Because, in case you missed it, it is about NATO, along with our conversation, and more than half the countries you listed are not members of NATO.  Thanks for the Red Herring, but I'm not in the mood for fish right now. 

Furthermore, not sure if your intent in selectively quoting me was to imply I am for our military complex, but just to make it clear, I am not!  If you read further, you would have seen so.  I have stated many times, I would like to see our military contract back to pre-WW2 levels. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2017, 08:26:37 am »

Some on this forum are being hypocrites. 

You can't be against our military complex and expansion, wishing to see it decrease in size, while at the same time being upset with Trump telling Europe that they need to handle their own affairs and provide more military support overall (as per stated in the NATO agreement). 

You can't have it both ways.  Either you want to see the military complex decrease (like me), which means others countries will no longer be able to rely on the USA.  Or you're upset with Trump telling Europe off, which means you are for our current military complex and keeping it, at least, at its current size. 

P.S., I do feel however, Trump's comments on trade with Germany were uncalled for.  I wish we could somehow have a trade surplus.  Also, the Paris climate agreement I think is still a worth it to keep it going. 

Primarily, I am glad we have someone who at the moment seems willing to decrease our military actions worldwide and has no problem telling people.  Of course, the Syria strike has me concerned, but to look at the flip side, HRC was a devout hawk.  So on this front, I think we have a chance to stop being the world's police. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 08:42:55 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2017, 09:21:03 am »

So who?
Don't you think this far too strong language ...and at the same time you are not addressing the persons in question.
Should we all feel insulted?

I should have said, some are being hypocritical, instead of calling people hypocrites. 

I see it on both sides as of now, and not just on this forum, but in the news, on both sides, repeatably.  It's becoming annoying. 

Some (light) libertarians were all too happy that Trump was for decreasing our military and praised him for that, but then, when he bombed Syria, suddenly it became okay, not to mention his increase in military spending in his budget is suddenly okay too. 

Some liberals want to see our military decrease in size, but were for electing a known hawk, that would have done the opposite, and are now upset that Trump has told our NATO friends that they need to start living up to the agreement because we are no longer going to supply unlimited support, a net effect of having the smaller military they want. 

Neither of these make sense, and are both hypocritical. 

Either you are for decreasing our military, or you are not. 

After 15 years of our involvement in the Middle East, I am tired of seeing different arguments on both sides that all lead to the same result, further involvement. 

Both sides have brought us just as much war as the other in the last couple of decades. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 01:01:43 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2017, 04:37:10 pm »

Jeff, you come off as always being angry, and maybe I did speak a little too unsparing earlier today.  I apologize for that and putting words in other's mouths. 

I agree that both HRC were horrible choices, although they both are the same amount of scopes in my book and I don't think "jimmies" are called for. 

You don't put "sprinkles" on ice cream; you put them on cookies and cakes.   ;) 

Anyway, I could call less about the semantics of how the visit was handled.  All I care about is spending less on defense (and overall conservative actions on fiscal issues); otherwise, I could really care less what decisions are made in Washington.  We spend far far too much on defense and after 16 years of being in conflicts, plus the couple years during Bill Clinton's presidency, enough is enough.  The USA has been in foreign conflicts for slightly more then half my life. 

So if putting an end to it means telling NATO to start living up the 2% agreement and our reliability would be less so, even in a somewhat crass manner, then so be it. 

Anyway, Trump was for less military action abroad and, originally, for less spending on the military.  He changed his tune in the middle of campaign, which I felt was for getting votes but still was for a non-interventionist policy, aside from destroying ISIS.  I never trusted Hillary to use less force abroad. 

I trusted Obama, but he was feckless in that regard.  He kept the status quo, tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one, which is always the case when you operate in that manner. 

With the bombing of Syria and Trump's first budget proposal that included an increase in military spending, I just really have to shake my head.  Exactly how deep and strong is the war machine imbedded in our political system that no matter who gets in office, we can't just shut it down. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 04:56:38 pm by JoeKitchen »
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bcooter

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2017, 07:12:33 pm »

This is actually more serious than it may seem to a casual observer. Although she first mentioned it in a speech running up to the upcoming elections in Germany, she is not the kind of person to just make empty threats.


Since it's sophomore humor month.
This photo proves I agree with you.



IMO
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2017, 11:33:53 am »

So here you have it - the double standard.

A white supremacist commits and is charged with both a double murder and hate crimes in Portland, Oregon. The WH to date makes no comment. Today a comedian makes a joke in bad taste, apologizes in no uncertain terms, and yet all the Trumpettes turn evangelical with feigned rage and disgust.

Meanwhile back at the ranch yesterday's press briefing was such a success (no double standards there) that today's briefing is rumoured to be held with no cameras permitted.

Transparency for all to see.
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2017, 12:59:34 pm »

**deleted - the murders were finally acknowledged by the WH.

He is accused of killing Rick Best, a retired Army platoon sergeant who served for 23 years, and 23-year-old Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, after they stepped in to defend a 16-year-old and her Muslim friend a MAX train last Friday.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 03:41:09 pm by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2017, 08:37:38 pm »

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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2017, 09:14:58 pm »

It takes two to tango. It's looking more and more as if the rest of the world is going to politely but firmly shut Trump out until he's gone. Really, if this continues Trump will be lucky if he can persuade Nicaragua to negotiate a deal on tamales. People don't like the guy and they don't want to do business with him. As soon as Trump's out of office they'll start talking again. Simple as that. The real challenge is to prevent a war breaking out in the meantime. There are no winners from any of this. Many of the points you raise most definitely need addressing but no one is going to do deals with Trump around. What's the point? If he ends up in the dock or resigning, anything agreed with him would be torn up anyway.

The USA has the largest economy in the world.  Really, the USA has the big stack; they are the Chipper MaGea at the poker table.  Merkel may not like the one holding the cards right now, but that makes no difference.   

Really, I don't like it when I play against some loud mouth player that always boast, but it does not stop me from working him and taking his chips.  Not that I am for that kind of behavior, but I am not going to let them stop me from taking his money. 

This is the same nonsense when people said Greek should tell Germany to shove it a few years ago with Germany's bailout demands.  It made no sense then; in that card card, Germany had all of the chips. 

Same thing here. 

Speaking from what I know, photography, Schneider has two, maybe three, factories in the USA making the some of the best lenses to supply for, by far, the largest cinematography market in the world.  Same thing with Carl Zeiss.  Do you really think Merkel is just going to sit back and let them pay out the ass in the tariffs to operate in this country, especially considering Canon and Fuji are all but too ready to take over that market? 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:55:34 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2017, 09:25:30 pm »

I don't see how not being part of the Paris Agreement prevents American companies from continuing to develop alternative energies.  Free markets continue to operate.  Musk isn't going to stop producing the electric Tesla car and rechargeable batteries.  If there is a market for particular goods, the free market will create it. The American taxpayer doesn't have to subsidize it.

Worse yet, is that if American stayed in the Paris agreement, it would pay the amounts even though there's no penalty for not.  But Europe and others won't pay what they said they would anymore than how they didn't pay the 2% for defense in the NATO situation..  America will wind up carrying the load as usual.  Trump made the right decision for America.

Their whole argument makes no sense.

I spent the whole day photographing the progress of LGA, hanging out with engineers.  It really makes no difference if the USA pulls out, global companies still need to manufacturer their products at the Paris Accord standards if they want to sell globally.  All USA companies will still need to follow the standards.  The only thing it effects is allowing our energy companies to not follow the standards. 

Second, renewables are never going to actually supply us with enough energy, period.  People are living a pipe dream if they actually think wind turbines, solar panels, or geothermal will ever provide us with the amount of energy we need.  Sure, they will be a nice supplement, but anything above 20% is a fantasy. 

Fossil fuels just have too much power, the result of millions of years of natural forces, and I whole heartily believe renewables will never come close to supplying us with what we need.  The only thing that could come close would be nuclear. 

I just find it so funny that so many are against it.  On the radio I heard about a group protesting Trump in NYC that is against fossil fuels and ... nuclear! 

Every engineer I spoke to today agreed, not to mention solar panels only absorb at most 20% of the energy that hit it.  Nuclear is the only real option, and, unfortunately, we will need to spend 10 years or so trying and failing at trying to make renewables work before we realize we need nuclear. 

And this whole argument about how the solar provides so many jobs, more then all fossil fuels combined, only proves how inefficient renewables are.  Fossil fuels provides significantly more units of energy at a extremely lower cost (just look at the payroll costs), so the argument really falls flat. 

People want cheap energy; they don't want to pay for the salary of 10 times more people all of a sudden. 

I really just find it so frustrating no one talks about nuclear.  It's the only really option. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 09:31:19 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2017, 12:25:54 am »

1 in 68 is quite high. The scientists and doctors still don't know the causes.
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2017, 12:27:00 pm »

Around 4:45 NYC time, it's that Champions League final : Juventus v Real Madrid at the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff, Wales ( you know that funny country with a language no-one else speaks, just across the water from Ireland). I know it's not American Football nor, in the words of the great Bill Shankly, is it 'a matter of life and death - it's far more important than that'.

Try it, you might just enjoy it.
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2017, 02:28:15 pm »

Maybe it's good there's an EU and NATO.  Less chance they'll start shooting at each other again and drag us in to another European war.   Maybe that's what Mattis told him so he'd warmed up to NATO.   It's cheaper keeping the peace than fighting a war. 

Alan , very quickly ('cos there's only 30 minutes 'till kick off) - this bruhah about NATO - Article 5 of the NATO Treaty states that 'an attack on one is an attack on all'.

The only time that its been invoked is when America sought, and received, NATO support for the Gulf wars. Both Bushes , both wars. So who supported who ?

America and Europe are interlinked, we're allies and when the shit hits the fan, no matter how much we dislike it, we'll be by each others side. That's what America did for the Brits in the Falklands war, that's what'll happen again - if necessary.

Let's make it 'not necessary' and hope your President chills on the inflammatory & divisive rhetoric.
I'm off to watch the final ...
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #97 on: June 05, 2017, 11:51:16 am »

... and now I'm beginning to believe that he's 'seriously lost it ... '


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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2017, 05:04:39 pm »

Do you really need to resort to stupid and obscene talk when you can't win an argument? I'm not impressed or intimidated by it, but it really shows your weakness.

That is common USA saying, and not something to be offended about.  Its means if you are really sincere, you'll pay up for something (like defense), but if you don't put up the money, you're really not doing anything. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2017, 05:08:53 pm »

Oh, if only that were true for the Bullsh$ter-in-Chief Donald J Trump.

Oh, about those "Obstructionists"...

Trump Calls Democrats 'Obstructionists,' But He's Only Nominated 11 Ambassadors

Do they not roll over from the previous administration if new ones are not appointed?  I honestly do not know. 
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