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Author Topic: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?  (Read 61315 times)

N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2017, 07:33:26 pm »

From another standpoint - be nice cos the sky fairy says so!!!

You know, I've tried to be civil and I've tried to ignore you but the bottom line is that everything you have posted in this thread shows you to be belligerent, offensive and hateful.  You do not address any aspects of logical discourse with anything approaching thoughtfulness. And any time someone utterly defeats your short baseless claims all you can do is complain about how many sentences it took or how big the words were.

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More seriously - your problem is that you don't know why people do what they do.

What does that even mean? Do YOU know why people do what they do?

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Humans are more complex than ants, so your chances of working out the details of what motivates them is slim.

I never once claimed to know what motivates people. So now you're just making things up.

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Cover up your failure with long winded tomes on morality if you wish, but don't expect to convince anyone.

This will probably get this thread closed, removed or both. It might even get me banned, but it needs to be said and I suspect people on both sides of this discussion are thinking it too and will agree. But you are clearly an idiot.

My apologies to the site owners and moderators.
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George

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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2017, 07:49:55 pm »

Obviously, according to Hitler's moral code Hitler was not wrong. Those in his regime obviously had moral codes that allowed them to participate in his plans. Many others thought at least some aspects of Hitler's moral code were abhorrent and they are the only reason he did not end up dominating the world. It's pretty simple. Each of us wants our own morals to prevail. That is why nearly every argument of principal exists. Sometimes it rises to the level of war and violence and sometimes it is just a friendly disagreement.

What you have said here, once again, is nothing more that might-makes-right. Which again, is the proper conclusion of materialism. I think you're getting the picture now.

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By my definition and that of a large consensus of humanity, slavery is not moral.

Logically inconsistent. If there is no morality and if morals are self determined by groups and individuals then possessing another human being has no moral parameters. Either some people like it or some people don't. You've made this statement yourself.

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BMorality is relative to the person, and there is often a large consensus of what is moral, as in the case of murder, robbery, etc. When that happens people tend to make laws with penalties to enforce their morals

Yes. Again. Might makes right. Exxon and its government buddies is strong and powerful. It corrupts the planet. By your definition there is NOTHING wrong with that. It is just something you don't like. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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Good and evil exist relative to each person and relative to the consensus of society. If you rob someone and get caught you go to jail. If a nation state performs what most of us think are sufficiently egregious acts there is a war. Regardless of my belief structure or yours, that is how the world works, and how it has always worked.

Good. But that does not give you or anyone else the logical consistency to say that it is wrong for people to do things you don't like. All you can do is apply force to stop them. Again, might-makes-right. Survival of the fittest. Its all just a struggle of strength and popular consent.

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"Should" is based on what I think is right. It is relative to me.

Correct. In the materialist view. The whole point is that in that view "should" is utterly meaningless. It is a whim, an impulse an opinion. Nothing more. Unless you back it up with violence. And yes, that pretty much describes the world as we know it. But why think that is good? Because after all, we are destroying the planet. And by your definitions that is not evil, it is not wrong, it is just something you don't agree with and you do not have sufficient  force to do anything about it.

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Ask the CEO of Exxon and you'll get a different "should".

That is exactly why your "should" has no meaning. It is its own oxymoron. There is no such thing as a relative "should". It is a unicorn.

As I've said before, the only thing worse than relativizing morals is believing there is no cost in doing so. That is the very definition of cowardice. And it is the very definition of hypocrisy to claim that it is morally okay for anyone to do whatever they can get away with and then suggest that the shouldn't because you don't like it.
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George

"What is truth?" Pontius  Pilate

Rand47

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #122 on: January 25, 2017, 08:08:18 pm »

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Good and evil exist relative to each person and relative to the consensus of society. If you rob someone and get caught you go to jail. If a nation state performs what most of us think are sufficiently egregious acts there is a war. Regardless of my belief structure or yours, that is how the world works, and how it has always worked.

I appreciate the clarity of your statement here.  This is authentic relativism.  So, nothing is absolute in this view.  It has logical consistency.  But, I'm not sure it is coherent. 

Let me posit this.  Can you imagine a context in which it is permissible to torture babies just for the fun of it?  I know this may seem absurd to even ask.  But it is precisely "because" it will strike you as absurd that I will make an appeal to the concept of "torturing babies merely and only for the fun of it" poses a question that begs for a transcendent moral imperative that IS NOT merely societal consensus.  Even societies that believed in child sacrifice 'by consensus' did so for some reason of efficacy.  Doing something abhorrent "merely for the fun of it" puts it in another category altogether.  Does it seem so to you?  If not, why not?

Rand
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Ray

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2017, 08:50:23 pm »

From a materialist standpoint that is absolutely correct.

Again, this is absolutely correct. This is also the doctrine, perfectly stated, of might makes right. By this same standard there is no logical consistency in saying Hitler was wrong for incinerating homosexuals or that the antebellum US was wrong for codifying chattel slavery. You cannot even say that they should not have done these things. Genocide and slavery in both of these cases where norms of the culture at the time and fully supported by the law and the leaders. That would be a perfect definition of your "human construct" definition of morality. By your definition, slavery was 'moral'. If you can live with that reality, and it IS the reality of materialism then you are an honest, thoughtful, logically consistent materialist. But as soon as you suggest that someone else ought to do something then you are no longer logically consistent. As soon as you suggest that slavery is always wrong and always to be proscribed you are no longer being logically consistent. The destructive and avaricious, the hateful and the violent are as correct and proper in their attitudes and actions as the environmentalist or the civil rights advocate.

Likewise, if you say I should protect the planet, you are logically inconsistent. If you say I must protect the planet and make me do so at the threat of violence (the only real teeth of any law) then might-makes-right is your belief structure.

I'm glad you understand this. I'm sad that it seems okay to you or anyone else because by this standard neither evil or good exist.

That statement does not follow logically and I don't understand what you are trying to say. Even the existence of a morally binding and transcendent moral code does not mean that it is followed. That does not impune the moral in any way. It simply proves that evil exists.

Perhaps the problem with such an argument is the failure to understand at a fundamental level the definition of what is wrong. How do we ultimately determine what is wrong, or what is right?

I would suggest that what is right, and therefore moral, is any set of behaviours and attitudes that results in an over all benefit to a particular species, allowing it to proliferate and prosper, and that what is wrong, and therefore immoral, is any set of attitudes and behaviour patterns that have the opposite effect of diminishing the survival potential of a species, or subspecies, or nation or group.

Since the effects of our actions are very complex and have ramifications many years later, those actions that are in fact wrong and immoral at the present time are not always perceived and understood to be wrong because of the attraction of the immediate benefits that might flow to the group, nation or individuals who engage in the wrong and immoral conduct.

Devising a set of moral codes, such as the Ten Commandments, is a practical attempt by the 'presumably wiser' leaders of a society at the time, to prevent people from unwittingly engaging in behaviour which those wise leaders, or advisors, think might have harmful consequences for themselves and their society at some time in the future.

Unfortunately, what is right or wrong, and moral or immoral, is often dependent upon the circumstances of the times. Circumstances are always changing. Those societies that cling on to moral codes that have become out-dated and irrelevant in a modern context, or any sudden change in circumstances, tend to suffer the consequences.

I have no problem with the basic concept of a change in paradigm from the use of fossil fuels to other more sustainable and potentially cleaner forms of energy. Eventually, we will all benefit, provided those alternative energy sources such as solar power are potentially more efficient than gas and coal, after taking all the additional costs of adequate emission controls for fossil fuels into consideration, and the external costs of the health consequences of the burning of fossil fuels in the absence of adequate emission controls, and so on.

The problems as I see them relate to the religious aspects associated with the dangers of CO2. The so-called 'consensus of scientific opinion' on the issue seems to have taken on the role of an Almighty God, in the minds of the scientific illiterates.

Those who have a good understanding of the scientific methodology and the problems of uncertainty whenever an issue is complex with countless variables, elements of chaos, and long time-scales involved before any effect can be observed, understand that any certainty on such issues is likely to be a fabrication.

The danger of blindly following the recommendations of these new gods is that we might falsely imagine that spending huge sums of money on renewable energy in order to reduce CO2 levels, will have certain beneficial effects, such as reducing the intensity of floods and storms, and therefore, as a consequence, we might not spend sufficient resources on protecting ourselves from the recurrence of natural, extreme weather events that are not related to human emissions of CO2.

Here's an example of such an extreme weather event that one cannot attribute to rising CO2 levels, as reported by Scientific American.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/atmospheric-rivers-california-megaflood-lessons-from-forgotten-catastrophe/

"A 43-day storm that began in December 1861 put central and southern California underwater for up to six months, and it could happen again.
Geologic evidence shows that truly massive floods, caused by rainfall alone, have occurred in California every 100 to 200 years. Such floods are likely caused by atmospheric rivers: narrow bands of water vapor about a mile above the ocean that extend for thousands of kilometers.

In 1861, farmers and ranchers were praying for rain after two exceptionally dry decades. In December their prayers were answered with a vengeance, as a series of monstrous Pacific storms slammed—one after another—into the West coast of North America, from Mexico to Canada. The storms produced the most violent flooding residents had ever seen, before or since."


Have I made a good case for my pragmatism, George?  ;D
 

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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2017, 09:52:01 pm »

Perhaps the problem with such an argument is the failure to understand at a fundamental level the definition of what is wrong. How do we ultimately determine what is wrong, or what is right?

That IS in fact the heart of the matter.

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I would suggest that what is right, and therefore moral, is any set of behaviours and attitudes that results in an over all benefit to a particular species, allowing it to proliferate and prosper, and that what is wrong, and therefore immoral, is any set of attitudes and behaviour patterns that have the opposite effect of diminishing the survival potential of a species, or subspecies, or nation or group.

That does not work. Hitler thought that genocide would lead to a better world for what he considered his people. His DNA. The southern plantation culture deeply believe the a leisure culture was far superior to all others and that the way to achieve that was to make someone else do the work.

Genocide was wrong in 1940. Slavery was wrong in 1860. They were both always wrong and always will be wrong IF you have a moral basis for saying so. If you do not, then they might have been 'right' then or the could be 'right' in the future since everything was different back then and will be different later....if you relativize morals. Which you have, very explicitly, as I quote below:

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Unfortunately, what is right or wrong, and moral or immoral, is often dependent upon the circumstances of the times. Circumstances are always changing. Those societies that cling on to moral codes that have become out-dated and irrelevant in a modern context, or any sudden change in circumstances, tend to suffer the consequences.

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The problems as I see them relate to the religious aspects associated with the dangers of CO2. The so-called 'consensus of scientific opinion' on the issue seems to have taken on the role of an Almighty God, in the minds of the scientific illiterates.

Quite. If all the Freudian and sociological excuses for god are true (we created god because we needed him) then something has to replace him. Science has replaced him. Not as a tool of investigation and innovation but as the monolith that cannot be questioned. It is no accident that Americans believe anything preceded by the words "scientists say" and will buy anything verified by "scientific research".

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Those who have a good understanding of the scientific methodology and the problems of uncertainty whenever an issue is complex with countless variables, elements of chaos, and long time-scales involved before any effect can be observed, understand that any certainty on such issues is likely to be a fabrication.

In the context of global warming it is that 'certainty' you mention that has been foisted upon the gullible and those who would use it for ideological purposes. The science may not be bad, the way we interpret and propagandize the results that is so specious.

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Have I made a good case for my pragmatism, George?  ;D

I'm going to have to think about it for a while.
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George

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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #125 on: January 26, 2017, 01:35:39 am »

You know, I've tried to be civil and I've tried to ignore you but the bottom line is that everything you have posted in this thread shows you to be belligerent, offensive and hateful.

Just as long as I'm not pompous, condescending and boring.

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You do not address any aspects of logical discourse with anything approaching thoughtfulness. And any time someone utterly defeats your short baseless claims all you can do is complain about how many sentences it took or how big the words were.

You seem to have mixed up "thoughtfulness" with "typing".

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What does that even mean? Do YOU know why people do what they do?

Nope - but that's fine. There are lots of things I don't know, and that's fine too. I don't know why may car didn't start this morning, but in both cases I have an idea where to start looking for the answer, and I don't put the blame on a supernatural being.

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I never once claimed to know what motivates people. So now you're just making things up.

Aah - my mistake - I had imagined that what you term "morality" was a thing that motivated people to do the "right thing". You'd need to explain better what the point of "morality" is in order to make your case. Or on second thoughts, please don't bother.

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This will probably get this thread closed, removed or both. It might even get me banned, but it needs to be said and I suspect people on both sides of this discussion are thinking it too and will agree. But you are clearly an idiot.

At last you may well be right - I usually keep the curtains closed and don't answer the door when the folks with leaflets come knocking. I've no idea why I bothered to engage you here.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:11:14 am by jeremyrh »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #126 on: January 26, 2017, 01:41:04 am »

The problems as I see them relate to the religious aspects associated with the dangers of CO2. The so-called 'consensus of scientific opinion' on the issue seems to have taken on the role of an Almighty God, in the minds of the scientific illiterates.

Those who have a good understanding of the scientific methodology and the problems of uncertainty whenever an issue is complex with countless variables, elements of chaos, and long time-scales involved before any effect can be observed, understand that any certainty on such issues is likely to be a fabrication.

The consensus of scientific opinion is simply that - our best guess as to what are the likely consequences of a certain set of actions. Nobody with any sense claims to know for certain if the predictions are correct, but they are better than any other predictions. Believing otherwise on the basis of little or no evidence is a lot more like religion than is climate change science.

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The danger of blindly following the recommendations of these new gods is that we might falsely imagine that spending huge sums of money on renewable energy in order to reduce CO2 levels, will have certain beneficial effects, such as reducing the intensity of floods and storms, and therefore, as a consequence, we might not spend sufficient resources on protecting ourselves from the recurrence of natural, extreme weather events that are not related to human emissions of CO2.

That is a danger. The alternative danger is ignoring what the evidence strongly suggests to us and causing cataclysmic changes to our planet. Is that a difficult choice?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:09:44 am by jeremyrh »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #127 on: January 26, 2017, 02:12:30 am »


Genocide was wrong in 1940. Slavery was wrong in 1860. They were both always wrong and always will be wrong IF you have a moral basis for saying so.

I see. How about abortion? Or homosexuality?? Are they wrong? Or not?? 




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DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2017, 06:53:55 am »

George,

You are saying that I cannot logically determine whether something is wrong or right unless it is based on a "transcendent moral code" that cannot be further explained or proven. You say this transcendent moral code is "binding" yet people pick and choose which parts of it to follow. That's interesting use of the word "binding". It's also interesting that the results of that picking and choosing are about the same as the results of people simply following their own and consensus moral codes. Take a look at history and current events. All of the atrocities you have mentioned are actually evidence against what you are trying to prove. You explain them away as people making mistakes.

"Should" has meaning only relative to a person's own moral code. It is morally okay for someone to do whatever they can get away with only relative to the person doing it. If it was not somehow okay with them they would not do it so that "okayness", relative to themselves, is obvious. If I say they are wrong based on my own and different moral code I am a coward. If you say they are wrong but claim it is based on a moral code with a source that you cannot prove or explain, you are a knight in shining armor. That's convenient. Deities and transcendental forces are themselves only human constructs devised so people can make sense of things they cannot explain. At some point in history solar eclipses were attributed to them, and the people who believed that had just as much conviction as you do.

"Because after all, we are destroying the planet. And by your definitions that is not evil, it is not wrong, it is just something you don't agree with and you do not have sufficient force to do anything about it.": Again, according to my own moral code it is evil and wrong. I do not ask a ghost to define what is evil and wrong. According to those doing the deeds it is obviously not evil or wrong. Otherwise you are exactly correct. We are destroying the planet, there is no evidence that we will ever stop, and I can do nothing about it because I do not have sufficient force. Note that "force" can have many forms, ranging from political influence to money to violence.

Once upon a time I lobbied officials in local and federal government on behalf of many environmental issues, helped establish a local nature preserve that was slated to become a marina and housing development, and otherwise tried very hard to accomplish things I regard as good. In those days quite a few people sincerely believed that doing what I regard morally good was morally bad. We were both "right" according to our own beliefs. I have no idea what the deities or transcendental forces thought.

The unfortunate reality is that everything done by everyone around the world to preserve our environment are vastly insufficient. Together all of those people do not have enough "force" to accomplish their goals. Might always prevails. Believing something is immoral based on your own thoughts or based on some rules handed down on stone tablets changes nothing. Whether we disagree or agree here has no effect on anything beyond our own thoughts.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:23 am »

Morality comes from God not man. Trying to ascribe a moral rule to how man should handle the effects of climate control is fraught with man's own prejudices.  We probably should keep God out of it.  It may come down to tradeoffs of results that man must debate on his own.

N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2017, 09:51:33 am »

I see. How about abortion? Or homosexuality?? Are they wrong? Or not??

If you are a materialist you cannot say one way or the other. You also have no logical basis for condemning anyone else for how they feel about such topics. Someone saying abortion is wrong is no different, for the logically consistent materialist, than someone who says it isn't. Its just their opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

But here is a better question: Do you think it is wrong for someone to condemn homosexuality as wrong? If so, on what basis. If everything is up to the individual, then EVERYTHING is fine. Everything. The fact that you disagree is immaterial.
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George

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Rob C

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2017, 10:28:02 am »

Frankly, thoughts on climate change are really not a lot to do with faith in a god.

I have faith in God, but that is not a god as presented by any religion known to me; my concept is of a power that instigated the beginning of everything. For the different worlds as we know them to be, within the bounds of our present knowledge levels, there has to have been something that put in place all of the materials upon which are based the fancy theories about ignited gasses, massive vacuums or unimaginable densities of matter etc. etc. However far back we manage to trawl through time, the inevitable conclusion has to be that it had a beginning. The source of that beginning is the mystery that some think of as God. No use just saying it was all about gasses, those had to come from somewhere.

Morality is indeed (IMO) a construct or development within the framework of the human mind; it may or may not have divine origins, but it is surely sourced upon rules that encourage a harmonious survival, at the very least. There is nothing harmonious about the philososphy of ISIS, is there, and only through the perversion of a reasonable faith can such ideals be thought benign, hence one could suggest that morality in such beliefs is totally lacking. It is not my intention to criticise any person's faith, but I believe that a common sense of morality is based on humanist as well as religious beliefs; I can't see morality arising from evil, of which there is more than enough all around us, but I can see immorality arise from such a source.

But putting in place any measures that we can that will not add to the pollution we produce is a good thing. That it may or may not be capable of changing the course of climate change is not the point: the point is that it represents humanity doing its level best to reduce its own contribution towards disaster. Helping us survive a few thousand years longer is not a bad thing, is it? Doing less is tantamount to saying oh well, I'm gonna die anyhow so why take care to avoid the busses when I cross the street?

You wouldn't think like that, would you? Unless you had a death wish.

Rob

N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2017, 10:31:08 am »

George,

You are saying that I cannot logically determine whether something is wrong or right unless it is based on a "transcendent moral code" that cannot be further explained or proven.

Correct.

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You say this transcendent moral code is "binding" yet people pick and choose which parts of it to follow. That's interesting use of the word "binding".

You are correct. I do not use it in the sense that a moral cannot be broken. I use it in the sense that it is absolute. From a transcendent standpoint there can be no debate that it is wrong to torture a baby for fun. It is absolute. For the relativist and/or materialist this cannot be claimed. And those of us who believe in a transcendent moral code the word binding has another sense. If you break the law there are consequences.

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It's also interesting that the results of that picking and choosing are about the same as the results of people simply following their own and consensus moral codes. Take a look at history and current events. All of the atrocities you have mentioned are actually evidence against what you are trying to prove. You explain them away as people making mistakes.

No inconsistency at all. I explain them as evil. Sin if you will. The materialist has to observe the same world situation but cannot say it is sin or evil. Its just people doing what is right for them.

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"Should" has meaning only relative to a person's own moral code. It is morally okay for someone to do whatever they can get away with only relative to the person doing it. If it was not somehow okay with them they would not do it so that "okayness", relative to themselves, is obvious.

Right. But again, that us of the word 'should' is illogical. It is nonsense. It is like saying a 'square circle'.

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If I say they are wrong based on my own and different moral code I am a coward. If you say they are wrong but claim it is based on a moral code with a source that you cannot prove or explain, you are a knight in shining armor.

Not at all. I am simply being logically consistent. A materialist who condemns is being logically inconsistent. We each have to determine how important that is to us. Most people blow it off but don't think about it. Plato said the un-examined life was not worth living.

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That's convenient. Deities and transcendental forces are themselves only human constructs devised so people can make sense of things they cannot explain.

Again, this is a Freudian construct, co-opted by evolutionary psychology theorists. This approach to understanding deism was debunked decades ago. I've been told that I type too many words, but I'd be glad to engage this flawed theory if you wish. But as it stands it is merely one explanation. It establishes no logical cause and effect. I could have wild supernatural theories about gravity that could be explained away by my need to understand it. But that does not mean gravity is not real.

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At some point in history solar eclipses were attributed to them, and the people who believed that had just as much conviction as you do.

I have nowhere in this discussion argued for the existence of god. I have only discussed the consequences of there not being one. Very different things.

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Again, according to my own moral code it is evil and wrong.

Sure. But your moral code only applies to you unless you apply it to someone else by force.

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I do not ask a ghost to define what is evil and wrong.

I'm not easily offended by such comments but you must know that it is very insulting. And I think people feel free to make such disparaging remarks because they have convinced themselves that somehow modern man has disproved the existence of god. Again, another whole conversation, but there is no incontrovertible proof from science, math or philosophy that has buried the existence of god. I can say, with the full weight or reason and logic that there is no evidence that proves that it is irrational to believe in a deity. I'm willing to engage in that discussion at any time. And for the reord, I did not bring it up, you did. ;)

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The unfortunate reality is that everything done by everyone around the world to preserve our environment are vastly insufficient. Together all of those people do not have enough "force" to accomplish their goals. Might always prevails. Believing something is immoral based on your own thoughts or based on some rules handed down on stone tablets changes nothing. Whether we disagree or agree here has no effect on anything beyond our own thoughts.

That is the materialist view. Again, all I ask is that people consider that, like all beliefs and ideas, it has consequences that are terrifying. To think this untrue is a form of ignorance.
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George

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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2017, 10:38:48 am »

If you are a materialist you cannot say one way or the other. You also have no logical basis for condemning anyone else for how they feel about such topics. Someone saying abortion is wrong is no different, for the logically consistent materialist, than someone who says it isn't. Its just their opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

But here is a better question: Do you think it is wrong for someone to condemn homosexuality as wrong? If so, on what basis. If everything is up to the individual, then EVERYTHING is fine. Everything. The fact that you disagree is immaterial.
Why not just answer the question instead of waffling?
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2017, 10:41:54 am »

I appreciate the clarity of your statement here.  This is authentic relativism.  So, nothing is absolute in this view.  It has logical consistency.  But, I'm not sure it is coherent. 

Let me posit this.  Can you imagine a context in which it is permissible to torture babies just for the fun of it?  I know this may seem absurd to even ask.  But it is precisely "because" it will strike you as absurd that I will make an appeal to the concept of "torturing babies merely and only for the fun of it" poses a question that begs for a transcendent moral imperative that IS NOT merely societal consensus.  Even societies that believed in child sacrifice 'by consensus' did so for some reason of efficacy.  Doing something abhorrent "merely for the fun of it" puts it in another category altogether.  Does it seem so to you?  If not, why not?

Rand

Well. You could ask the folk who voted for Trump knowing he is in favour of torturing people and knowing that such torture serves no purpose other than providing some sort of satisfaction.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2017, 11:00:23 am »

Why not just answer the question instead of waffling?

Excellent point. And a perfect example of the hypocrisy of your position. You want to know if I think certain things are right or wrong even while your materialist viewpoint says nothing is right or wrong.

Waffling? No. I'm not required to answer to your inquisitions. I'm not the one asking you to believe something. I'm only pointing out that your belief structure is logically inconsistent. I have not asked you to change it.

But I will answer your question in a way. Do I believe some things are morally wrong? Yes. Do I believe some things are morally right? Yes.
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George

"What is truth?" Pontius  Pilate

jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2017, 12:09:11 pm »

Excellent point. And a perfect example of the hypocrisy of your position. You want to know if I think certain things are right or wrong even while your materialist viewpoint says nothing is right or wrong.
Not remotely correct. The question was rhetorical as your views on those issues are in fact of less than zero interest to me. More interesting is your continued refusal to answer, which is quite telling.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2017, 01:16:32 pm »

I'm not easily offended by such comments but you must know that it is very insulting. And I think people feel free to make such disparaging remarks because they have convinced themselves that somehow modern man has disproved the existence of god. Again, another whole conversation, but there is no incontrovertible proof from science, math or philosophy that has buried the existence of god. I can say, with the full weight or reason and logic that there is no evidence that proves that it is irrational to believe in a deity. I'm willing to engage in that discussion at any time. And for the reord, I did not bring it up, you did. ;)
You are right and I was wrong to say that as I did. I extend my apologies. I have long been aware the the existence of a god cannot be proven true or false. I actually do not dislike you for believing as you do though I was a little irritated by both this conversation and a project I'm working on when I typed my comments. Being simultaneously cranky and careless was totally my fault, but no true malice was intended.

...
But putting in place any measures that we can that will not add to the pollution we produce is a good thing. That it may or may not be capable of changing the course of climate change is not the point: the point is that it represents humanity doing its level best to reduce its own contribution towards disaster. Helping us survive a few thousand years longer is not a bad thing, is it? Doing less is tantamount to saying oh well, I'm gonna die anyhow so why take care to avoid the busses when I cross the street?

You wouldn't think like that, would you? Unless you had a death wish.

Rob

I agree that any measures we implement to reduce pollution are a good thing. I do not believe that "...humanity doing its level best to reduce its own contribution towards disaster". I think a fraction of humanity is and a far bigger fraction is not, or is doing the opposite.  Anything that is done to help us survive longer is a good thing, but I'm not sure that will be "a few thousand years". The sad part is that humanity will probably start to take these issues seriously only when human survival is threatened on a large scale. If that catastrophe is averted it will be quite a lonely place, since most other living things will perish first. I have no death wish but I'm glad I'm not a lot younger. I still try to minimize the damage I do but I'm no longer willing to spend large parts of my life on bigger efforts, most of which fail.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2017, 05:52:52 pm »

Not remotely correct. The question was rhetorical as your views on those issues are in fact of less than zero interest to me. More interesting is your continued refusal to answer, which is quite telling.

I'm not obligated to answer your questions about specific morals and it has no bearing on the conversation. The fact that you ask me a question on my views and then tell me you have zero interest in my views and then beat me up for not answering is the most telling thing so far. You don't seem to be able to string together any sort of logical response to any of this.
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George

"What is truth?" Pontius  Pilate

N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #139 on: January 26, 2017, 05:57:24 pm »

You are right and I was wrong to say that as I did. I extend my apologies. I have long been aware the the existence of a god cannot be proven true or false. I actually do not dislike you for believing as you do though I was a little irritated by both this conversation and a project I'm working on when I typed my comments. Being simultaneously cranky and careless was totally my fault, but no true malice was intended.

This is the reason I enjoy these discussions here at LuLa. We can disagree. We can even shoot a few barbs and drop a few insults without wanting to kill each other even when we are in complete disagreement. With a few notable exceptions....the level of intelligence and civility here at LuLa makes these sorts of discussions possible whereas most sites do not allow them.

The tone of my responses are often shaped by the mood I'm in and that is not always good. I need to be aware of that before I hit the 'post' button.

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George

"What is truth?" Pontius  Pilate
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