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Author Topic: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?  (Read 54357 times)

James Clark

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2017, 08:37:54 pm »

This is a logically untenable position. One which Sartre labeled cowardly. You can only have morals without God if you water down the meaning of the word 'moral'. Even that will not pass muster though.

Look inside yourself - Primum non nocere.  A fine start for a humanistic morality.
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luxborealis

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2017, 09:09:32 pm »

Climate change has become a highly politicized discussion primarily because the potential solution flies in the face of the libertarian ideals espoused by capitalists – pure, free-market economics: I can make, manufacture and do what ever I please and whatever I can afford, no matter how it affects others, as long as I can make a profit. Gee, you know what, I can make a bigger profit by ignoring the fact that my factories are polluting the air and rivers. Oh, and I can make even more by paying my workers even less. Apparently, if conditions get bad enough, there is an economics solution as well, but I sure don't want to pay too much to clean things up as I have a profit to make!

But it really isn't (nor ever was) pure, free-market economics if we are not paying the full costs associated with our western lifestyle. If free-market economies hadn't been reigned in back in the 1930s, there wouldn't be much of the natural wildllands left. Rivers would be totally polluted along with the air and workers would be paid little to nothing because, in a free-market economy, those things are not important, until, that is, it begins to affect the pocket book of the corporate bosses.

It's the same reason slavery lasted as long as it did in the US. Free-market capitalism determined it was cheaper to use human slave labour. Under free-market capitalism, slavery could still exist today in America if it was deemed to be most economically efficient. Thank goodness, someone put morals above economics! (BTW - they weren't necessarily Christian morals as many/most slave owners were God-fearing, devout Christians - go figure!)

But, you see, it's not just about economics. It's about people. But economics rule the day, so that's why insurance companies are scared s--tless about global climate change and the billions in payouts they may need to make, unless, of course, they re-write our policies specifically to exclude anything that may be deemed climate-change related. But, I digress.

Some scientists are political, no doubt. But do you really think that when Charles Keeling first reported measurable increases in CO2 he had a political agenda? No. Do you really think all the scientists around the world who collect measurable changes in greenhouse gases all have the same political agenda? Some will, but by far the majority don't. I can't verify this for sure, but it's kind of built into pure science that scientists report, it's up to others to put a moral judgement on what they find (unless, of course, the scientists themselves find the implications of their data morally repugnant).

The greenhouse effect (the reason why Earth has a livable temperature) and its link to carbon in our atmosphere (along with water vapour and nitrous oxides) has been known since the 19th century. So, it's not rocket science to connect rising GHGs with rising temperature, especially when the carbon signature of the carbon in our atmosphere clearly points to carbon derived from the burning of fossil fuels.

This is not a theory, it's fact. There is nothing political about stating facts, only in hiding facts or presenting "alternative facts". Scientists are not choosing these facts, the facts are self-evident.

Finally, let's look this issue another way... What if something killed 200,000 Americans every year. What if it prematurely killed 5.5 million people worldwide every year. Wouldn't you want your government do something about it? In World War II, the US lost 418,500 over the course of the war. This is 200,000 each and every year! These are deaths due to air pollution.

So now, what if coal mines and coal-burning power stations were shut down tomorrow? What if we switched tomorrow to electric cars and trucks and trains whose electricity comes entirely from renewable sources? The families of these hundreds of thousands of people who die every year from air-borne pollution would thank us. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are 69,460 people employed in "Coal Mining" (which includes thousands of ancillary jobs), and 172,000 people in oil and gas extraction, but we've just saved over 200,000 lives per year! BTW, the number of "Green Jobs" in the Utilities sector in 2011 was 289,045.

AND, according to a Forbes report from 2014, there are twice as many solar workers as there are coal miners.

SO, let's for a moment set Global Climate Change aside and deal with the facts of employment and deaths due to air pollution from fossil fuels. Do you realize the good that can be done if we simply make the switch to renewable fuels? So, even without Global Climate Change, there is an argument to be made for moving away from carbon-based fuels. Now, add in the possibility that all these scientists, who may or may not have a political agenda, just may be right in their thinking... the argument for keeping the status quo with regards to fossil fuels evaporates.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 09:13:12 pm by luxborealis »
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Terry McDonald - luxBorealis.com

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2017, 09:56:53 pm »

Well that's interesting but incredibly far from the topic of "Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?".

Again, no. Climate change ideology comes with 'shoulds' and 'musts'. It comes with imperatives. It is therefore a moral issue. And therefore the basis for those imperatives are open to examination. if it was only a matter of climate science it would a whole other issue. But that ship sailed when the ideologues appropriated the science (however weak or strong it may be) to further typically communist views and imperatives. Many climate scientists share this ideology. Questioning the science and questioning the imperatives are both legitimate ways to view climate change and its implications.

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Just for clarity I assume your definition of "materialist" is a person who supports the theory that nothing exists except matter, its movements, and modifications.

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I have never in my life been called a materialist before,

And now you know.  ;) The term naturalist is probably better but confuses some people who will think Muir or Audubon.

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I think having a positive impact on the world and those around us while alive is the best anyone can hope to do, and that's what I try to do.

Commendable. But you must know that this approach to life is open to broad and potentially evil interpretation. With no moral base "a positive impact" can come in many forms, many of which you might not consider positive. Sartre was confronted with this and was unable to live by his own ideology. I admire Sartre because he understood that if we all make our own morality then there is no actual morality. Neitzsche did not struggle with this at all. The strong make the morals.

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I suspect you will say my having any concept of good and evil is logically inconsistent with my materialist philosophy.

I would. Many here chafe against this but have no real rebuttal.

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I don't know the answer to these questions but they are not something I ever wonder about or feel any need to answer.

Plato said "An unexamined life is not worth living." I agree and suspect that anyone who finds self examination easy or comfortable is deluding himself. (That is not what I am saying about you.) But I do think that if you adhere to a belief or ideology and are willing to suggest that someone else change against his will, such as 'you need to stop using your air conditioner' or 'you have enough money and should give it to someone else' then you either need to think about these things OR be very open to their opposition to your ideas.

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In fact writing this post consumed about 10 minutes that could be better used doing almost anything else.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I find these conversations edifying and informative. They help me clarify my own beliefs.

I wonder why you decided to spend the time posting?

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As for all the doom, gloom and "nothing but pitiless indifference", believe what you like.

My beliefs are outrageously optimistic. ;)

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It would be nice to have more time but nothing lasts forever.

Nothing?  ;)

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This has all been interesting, but honestly the parsing of sentences is getting way too pedantic for me.

That is always the problem with this sort of discussion. To really understand what distinguishes justified belief from opinion requires a lot of parsing. Not many people have the patience or interest to do that.

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It is also serving no purpose.

I think that is up for debate. Just because it doesn't interest you (and I can understand that) doesn't mean it is useless. I think there is nothing more important than understanding why you hold the beliefs that you do, especially when you expect others to share them. And that is the essence of climate change discussions.

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George

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2017, 10:37:18 pm »

Climate change has become a highly politicized discussion primarily because the potential solution flies in the face of the libertarian ideals espoused by capitalists – pure, free-market economics: I can make, manufacture and do what ever I please and whatever I can afford, no matter how it affects others, as long as I can make a profit. Gee, you know what, I can make a bigger profit by ignoring the fact that my factories are polluting the air and rivers. Oh, and I can make even more by paying my workers even less. Apparently, if conditions get bad enough, there is an economics solution as well, but I sure don't want to pay too much to clean things up as I have a profit to make!

So what are you saying? You don't like the free market so it is okay to appropriate science to change geopolitics just as long as it helps the climate? Do you wonder why this approach makes the science less credible?

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It's the same reason slavery lasted as long as it did in the US. Free-market capitalism determined it was cheaper to use human slave labour.
Under free-market capitalism, slavery could still exist today in America if it was deemed to be most economically efficient.

This might be the worst misunderstanding of the origins and place of slavery in the American south that I have ever heard. The machinery of slavery was the antithesis of free market capitalism and the civil war, in defending slavery, was a reaction against those sorts of markets as the evolved in the north. Eugene Genovese has done extensive work on this topic. You might find it interesting. It is also a little shocking to hear someone pin slavery of free market capitalism but fail to mention Mao and Stalin and how they treated human beings.

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Thank goodness, someone put morals above economics!

That never happened. The abolitionists, while virtually all Christian, had little overall effect on the abolition of slavery in the south. The US congress kept slavery legal well into the war. Emancipation did not officially occur until slavery was both no longer economically important to the north and strategically advantageous to the war effort. Up until close to the end the north was ready to make a truce with the south to end the war and continue to allow slavery in exchange.

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(BTW - they weren't necessarily Christian morals as many/most slave owners were God-fearing, devout Christians - go figure!)

Christians get things just as wrong as anyone else.

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Do you really think all the scientists around the world who collect measurable changes in greenhouse gases all have the same political agenda? Some will, but by far the majority don't.

The loudest and most influential ones clearly do and make no bones about it.

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This is not a theory, it's fact. There is nothing political about stating facts,

There shouldn't be, but there is. The fact you are referring to says one thing. The other things, such as: because this carbon was man made it thus caused and will cause changes in the climate which will, in the balance, produce negative effects around the globe cannot be said, scientifically, or stated as fact based on the first fact. This is a prognostication based on models with varying degrees of statistical variance. Not fact and NEVER to be confused with fact. Calling this concept "fact" is either wrong or propaganda.

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"alternative facts".

The new definition of any fact someone else disagrees with.

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Scientists are not choosing these facts, the facts are self-evident.

That's an oxymoron. There is very little use in science for illuminating the self evident.  Some facts are self evident. Most aren't. The ones that aren't require science.

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These are deaths due to air pollution.

Climate change and deaths from pollution are two distinct issues, not to be confused. But let's state this another way: 500,000 Americans die every year due to cardiovascular disease. This is almost entirely due to diet and physical inactivity. If the government took away all food except for prescribed portions of proper foods and made us all exercise every day then we'd save millions of lives and an enormous burden of morbidity over a decade. Is the government obligated to do so? Should they do so? Do you want a bureaucrat (imagine your local DMV workers) feeding you and determining your exercise requirements? So sure. The government has a role. Most of us, even socialists and communists, will draw a line somewhere. Right?

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What if we switched tomorrow to electric cars and trucks and trains whose electricity comes entirely from renewable sources?

We would run out of electricity the very next day. No one on the planet believes that the energy requirements of the west, much less the expanding east, can be met with renewable sources. Yes, the more sources the better, but let's not dwell in fantasy. And if the anti nukes had left the nuclear industry alone in the 70's the coal industry would be nearly gone. By your accounting that would have saved millions by now, right?

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... the argument for keeping the status quo with regards to fossil fuels evaporates.

Again, not in the real world. But don't get me wrong here. I'm not an advocate of fossil fuel. I am a conservationist by nature. I am all about stewardship. I practice it every day. But the truth is there is no scenario in which alternative sources alone fuel this planet into the next century outside of some unexpected discovery the prospect of which will not feed the Chinese.

And while your hopes are sound, this commingling of science, politics, pollution stats and ideologies are damaging to efforts of positive change. If this planet is getting warmer because of fossil fuel use to the extent that a global catastrophe occurs, those who politicized the science are as guilty as those who ignored it.
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George

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Rand47

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2017, 10:55:59 pm »

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I assume your definition of "materialist" is a person who supports the theory that nothing exists except matter, its movements, and modifications.

Yes, this is how the term is used in philosophical discussion. No connotation of "greedy" or "the Material Girl" type of thing is intended.

My point is really fairly simple.  And you're correct in thinking that I see logical inconsistency in having a materialist world view, and then trying to justify values statements from that basis only.  Please don't think that I "devalue" your values.  I see your inability to be rationally coherent with your worldview as a good thing, and evidence of something more to the reality of things.  I cannot attribute it to evolutionary psychology which is not science in any sense of the word, but speculation based on starting from a conclusion.  Circular reasoning, so to speak.  But the impulse toward goodness and stewardship and altruism is a good one.  You just can't get there from "matter, its movements and modifications" alone.

My quotes from Richard Dawkins were to illustrate that there are very knowledgeable, thinking, highly educated people who do see the implications of their worldview and are not afraid to embrace them.  I respect them for this.  They are logically consistent and their worldview has coherence.  It isn't what one would call optimistic, but at least it is honest and rational, based on the facts-on-the-ground as they see them.

People of good will can and do work together for good ends, even if their worldviews are radically different.  I encourage this.  But one must not think that the concept of good will, or good ends, can be logically derived from science.  Some have tried in the last century, but that ended in more death and destruction than all previous centuries combined.  Hardly anyone today would consider their definition of "good ends" as good.  But they did.  And even in the U.S., the eugenics movement was gaining real steam until the ugliness of its logical conclusion and extended implementation was seen in Europe. 

Rand
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 12:21:35 am by Rand47 »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2017, 01:22:44 am »

Gosh - what a lot of sound and fury. I guess it's what you do in the absence of facts.
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Ray

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2017, 02:15:31 am »

This is a logically untenable position. One which Sartre labeled cowardly. You can only have morals without God if you water down the meaning of the word 'moral'. Even that will not pass muster though.

But, you sound quite certain. Tell me, all of us, what basis there is for morality if not from a transcendental force.  If you can do it it will be a historic moment. Sartre failed and so have far greater minds than him. But go ahead, we're all ears.

Okay! I'll try, but don't forget to nominate me for a Nobel Prize.  ;D

When discussing such topics it's important to be very precise with the definitions of the key words involved. The word 'moral' is derived from the Latin, 'Moralis' which refers to the proper behaviour and manners of a person in society. The word is associated with concepts such as mores, customs and disposition.

The word 'transcendent', from the Latin 'transcendentum' refers to a process of 'surmounting, or rising above'. Extending the meaning, we get 'surpassing the usual limits beyond the range of usual perception', and 'free from the constraints of the material world'.

I'm guessing that the last phrase, 'free from the constraints of the material world' is what you have in mind when you refer to a 'transcendental force'.
So, to address your question, 'what basis is there for a morality which is not from a transcendental force', I offer the following argument.

The evolutionary process of all creatures on the planet, relies upon a morality (or proper behaviour) which is appropriate for the circumstance and the environment.
An ant hill, as in the attached image, which is a complex city of tunnels in a mound of earth, cannot be built and maintained without the ants conforming to a strict sense of proper behaviour, or morality. You might call it 'ant-like morality', or 'instinct-driven morality', but it is nevertheless a type of morality which is essential for the ants' survival in their present situation.

When the environment changes, for whatever reason, meteorite strikes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, changes in the earth's orbit, and so on, those creatures that fail to adapt to the changing conditions tend to become extinct. Those than can and do adapt, survive.

We exist because of the adaptive skills of our ancestors. Adaptive skills in creatures with small brains, like ants, are more dependent on genetic mutations and genetic variability.
Big-brained creatures like Homo Sapiens, who are now able to communicate almost instantaneously across the world, for the first time in the history of our planet, have a tremendous capacity to adapt to any changing environmental conditions.

When we fail to adapt, which is sometimes (perhaps often) the case, we have the capacity to learn from history (or at least some of us do).  ;)

The paleontological record of our early ancestors suggests that Neanderthal man (or Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis) became extinct due to his inability to adapt to the encroaching Ice Age. The last 'Glacial Maximum' occurred about 24,500 BC. The cooling period began about 110,00 years ago. Neanderthal man became extinct about 40,000 years ago. The climate was getting colder and colder during those thousands of years, with many decades of alternating ups and downs, no doubt as we observe today.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens (as distinct from Homo Sapiens, who was also Neanderthal man) was able to adapt to those terribly cold conditions. The very low sea levels also helped the migration of tribes from Africa who were able to walk across areas that are now covered by sea. No boats were required.

The early Aboriginal settlers in Australia were also able walk into Australia and Tasmania, because sea levels were so low.

When discussing morality with religious connotations, we should not forget that many religious moral principles were first initiated as purely practical measures to counteract or prevent observed harmful effects. Eating diseased pigs, several centuries ago, was observed by the more intelligent members of the community, to be harmful to health. Banning the eating of pork can therefore be viewed as a rational decision by those in power at the time.

Unfortunately, religions in general tend to set dogmatic rules which might once have served a practical purpose, but might not serve any useful purpose in the changed conditions of a modern society. That's the tragedy of religious belief.

I like to use images to illustrate my point, so I've included a second photo of a lovely 'Long Neck' lady from Northern Thailand. Aren't the rings around her neck lovely! All females from an early age are required to permanently wear such rings in this society. Why? Why? Why? Is it purely decorative?

According to the Museum of Hill Tribe People in that area, there was a sound practical reason for women to wear such rings. Centuries ago, the job of the woman was to work in the fields harvesting crops. Tigers were a major predator in those days and would tend to attack the women by going for the jugular.

Some smart and adaptive chieftain sought a practical solution. All women must protect their jugular. The practice continues even though the original purpose no longer applies.

I rest my case.  ;D

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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2017, 06:19:02 am »

I don't think it is a construct as much as it is an emergant phenomena.

I think this is a key point actually, and one might think about emergent phenomena that we observe in nature and cellular automata that we create in the computer as a guide. Ants create complex structures following rather simple rules, and with limited physical and computational capacity. Imagine what emergent phenomena result from humans, with our astonishing brainpower! Rejecting all that in favour of the notion that we just follow orders from a sky fairy does not seem very sensible to me.
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Rob C

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2017, 08:30:30 am »

"Some smart and adaptive chieftain sought a practical solution. All women must protect their jugular. The practice continues even though the original purpose no longer applies.".............. Ray

Oddly enough, that's not the most threatened area when it comes to warfare. I can think of some of their more threatened regions that require protection from marauding 'soldiers' and independent militias.

And even beyond the obvious, what about protecting the minds of those poor women and girls, letting them breathe and develop to whatever their full potential? Tigers with stripes are a tiny threat in this world; worse the gurus in robes, of whatever colour and with or without stripes or chequer-patterned headdress.

Rob

Ray

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2017, 09:26:09 am »

"Some smart and adaptive chieftain sought a practical solution. All women must protect their jugular. The practice continues even though the original purpose no longer applies.".............. Ray

Oddly enough, that's not the most threatened area when it comes to warfare. I can think of some of their more threatened regions that require protection from marauding 'soldiers' and independent militias.

And even beyond the obvious, what about protecting the minds of those poor women and girls, letting them breathe and develop to whatever their full potential? Tigers with stripes are a tiny threat in this world; worse the gurus in robes, of whatever colour and with or without stripes or chequer-patterned headdress.

Rob

Rob,
The rings around the neck were to protect the women from tiger attacks which were a common occurrence in those days before the tiger became a threatened species.  The purpose of the rings was not to protect the women from warfare with neighbouring tribes. That would have been another problem.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2017, 10:11:43 am »

I wanted to tie up some loose ends in a final post:

I'm sorry you feel that way.
I should not have said it the way I did, but conversations like this absorb lots of time and lead nowhere. That same time spent recycling some paper would do more actual good for the cause we are discussing. Life is short enough that one has to choose what minutia deserves their time and how deeply it needs to be examined. Our priorities are different.
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I wonder why you decided to spend the time posting?
It was and is interesting, to a point. See above.
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My beliefs are outrageously optimistic. ;)
I said I was happy, but happiness is not optimism. Humanity has done a disastrous job of being planetary stewards. Most subscribe to some religion that you claim gives them a moral imperative to be good stewards of this planet. "We must do it", you say, yet we never have and still do not. It's great in theory but has never worked in practice. Youngsters of today have a less rich and diverse world than I've had. Future generations will have much less. That's not optimism, but it is what we have already made and continue to make at an accelerating pace.
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I think there is nothing more important than understanding why you hold the beliefs that you do, especially when you expect others to share them.
I do not expect others to share them. Most do not. It is also not up to me to give others the morals that their deities have supposedly supplied already. 

People of good will can and do work together for good ends, even if their worldviews are radically different.
Thank you for that.
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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2017, 10:43:35 am »

I think this is a key point actually, and one might think about emergent phenomena that we observe in nature and cellular automata that we create in the computer as a guide. Ants create complex structures following rather simple rules, and with limited physical and computational capacity. Imagine what emergent phenomena result from humans, with our astonishing brainpower! Rejecting all that in favour of the notion that we just follow orders from a sky fairy does not seem very sensible to me.

The problem is that the orders from above clearly change markedly from culture to culture and from one historical era to another. There are four major world religions and a host of minor ones. Over the centuries the orders from above have sometimes been violent and damaging and at other times generally genial and peaceable but their adherents have all claimed at one time or another that they were the echt command. So which set of orders if any is the real deal? They can't all be, can they? Alas, there is simply no way of telling. I suspect people realized a very long time ago now that this rather rules out religion as a sensible arbiter of political arrangements or in fact of much else outside of purely personal conduct and even then it has no claims to a monopoly. The Buddha famously kept away from speculations about God. Perhaps he realized only too well that had he not done so then he would still be there today, engaged in a furious argument with absolutely no resolution in sight. He came up with a set of suggestions about how to live life well, including the notion that the universe is an ethical place (by virtue of karma, without reference to a deity since none is necessary) and left it at that. He was probably the most level-headed man in all of history.

BTW, has anyone come across the ideas of the philosopher Derek Parfit who died recently? There are a couple of videos on YouTube if anyone is interested in a taster. Whether one agrees with him or not, his ideas strike me as a useful place to start from when considering how to live, including how to live morally, in the twenty-first century.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 11:14:56 am by mecrox »
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Rand47

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2017, 10:45:50 am »

Gosh - what a lot of sound and fury. I guess it's what you do in the absence of facts.

That’s all you got?

I think I have presented a sound proposition that one cannot get a general societal “ought” from the “is” of mere scientific observation and the resultant “facts-on-the-ground.”  I’ve conceded that any given individual may “self generate” an “ought” from “somewhere” – but not from the mere brute facts, but as mere personal preference with nothing from science to support it.

I’ve supported my premise by quoting Professor Richard Dawkins, FRS FRSL, an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.  Professor Dawkins is a leading proponent of the materialist worldview.  The quotes I’ve cited very clearly support the notion that within the materialist worldview there is no appeal to right, wrong, good, evil.  There is just the “is” of the facts-on-the-ground.

As a response to my premise, and support from a leading proponent of materialism, all I receive is a quasi-ad hominem “meh?”
May I ask if you agree with Professor Dawkins' position?  If so, will you then acknowledge that the positions you express in this thread are merely your individual personal preferences and should be taken as such?  Or, if you disagree with Professor Dawkins' position, on what grounds do you do so?

Rand
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 10:50:05 am by Rand47 »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2017, 11:38:23 am »

That’s all you got?

That's all it takes.

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I think I have presented a sound proposition that one cannot get a general societal “ought” from the “is” of mere scientific observation and the resultant “facts-on-the-ground.”

I don't think you've presented anything but a load of blether and hot air. Human beings are extraordinarily complex, and act in a way that is not susceptible to analysis in terms of simple consideration of an individual's superficial behaviour. Trying to undertake such analysis is a waste of time in my view, and ends up being a bunch of woolly philosophy. Amuse yourself with it if you wish, but don't confuse it with anything real.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2017, 11:44:50 am »

Gosh - what a lot of sound and fury. I guess it's what you do in the absence of facts.

Actually, in reviewing this entire thread you are the one who has presented the fewest facts, arguments or cogent replies.
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George

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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2017, 11:47:15 am »

This is a logically untenable position. One which Sartre labeled cowardly. You can only have morals without God if you water down the meaning of the word 'moral'. Even that will not pass muster though.

But, you sound quite certain. Tell me, all of us, what basis there is for morality if not from a transcendental force.  If you can do it it will be a historic moment. Sartre failed and so have far greater minds than him. But go ahead, we're all ears.

(I do not use the word religion for this. It is not the right word. Religion is a human institution and shares the same weaknesses with all other human institutions.)

Do you fail to see the irony of accusing me of defying logic when your position has to invoke a deity? Seems to me that your "moral" is hollow at best. Your moral is: what god deems moral, is moral. Circular argument anyone? If we are forced to discuss semantics I think this thread has run it's course. Alan was clear, I was clear. You are trying to build straw men.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2017, 11:54:04 am »

Actually, in reviewing this entire thread you are the one who has presented the fewest facts, arguments or cogent replies.
I have certainly typed fewer words than some - whether that means that my contribution is less is another matter.
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kers

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2017, 12:23:52 pm »

Some discussion... from snow in Spain to the holocaust...  ???

Fortunately we have more knowledge about photography...

Maybe Kevin can redirect the Antartica trips to Spain next year.
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Pieter Kers
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2017, 01:43:36 pm »

I've been having similar thoughts for quite a while. Frankly, the only thing that amazes me about any of this is that we got here so fast. I never thought I would live long enough to see the drastic changes we've already seen, and as Monty Python might say, I'm not dead yet.

Heck, we may as well all go back to shooting analog and live in log cabins on farms to minimize our damage to the planet. Sometimes this doesn't sound so bad when all you know is the busy city life :-)
Or perhaps some balance that does make sense/"grandfathered" in digital cameras only :-)
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If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...

Rand47

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2017, 02:41:39 pm »

Quote
I don't think you've presented anything but a load of blether and hot air.

So, may I assume that you consider Professor Dawkins' position, as part of what I've presented, part of this blether and hot air?

Quote
Human beings are extraordinarily complex, and act in a way that is not susceptible to analysis in terms of simple consideration of an individual's superficial behaviour.

This is an interesting conclusion.  May I ask how you came to hold this view?

Rand
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 03:03:18 pm by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams
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