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Author Topic: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?  (Read 61425 times)

DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2017, 03:19:48 pm »

Heck, we may as well all go back to shooting analog and live in log cabins on farms to minimize our damage to the planet. Sometimes this doesn't sound so bad when all you know is the busy city life :-)
Or perhaps some balance that does make sense/"grandfathered" in digital cameras only :-)
I'm not sure, but the manufacture and use of digital cameras may not be as bad overall as the manufacture and use of film and all of the processing chemicals that go with it. A person could put a lot of film through a camera over its lifetime. Some of those processing chemicals were fairly nasty, especially the ones for color.  And then there's print processing...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2017, 05:36:23 pm »

Regarding this issue, it might be instructive to go and read the essay my college biology teacher, Garret Hardin, published back in 1968, "The Tragedy of the Commons."  http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~asmayer/rural_sustain/governance/Hardin%201968.pdf   It's about six pages but easy reading and he covers the key issue of how to deal with a shared resource.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2017, 06:03:12 pm »

Okay! I'll try, but don't forget to nominate me for a Nobel Prize.  ;D

Ray, thank you for your response and the beautiful pictures. But I don't think you have made a case for morality (as understood in English usage) in the absence of god (if "transcendent" doesn't work for you.) And if the word moral seems to ambiguous then we can just use the idea conveyed by the words should or ought.

The fact that behaviors are encoded in DNA or are a result of evolutionary psychology (pseudo-science) do not give them moral authority. How could they? Such characteristics are no more than impulses. And if there arose an impulse to kill our neighbors to enhance our own survivability would we call that a moral? Would we say "You should kill the competition to improve your survival odds"?  Of course not. So in that respect you cannot rely of evolutionarily derived traits as morals. The other problem with this line of thinking is that so many things we consider to be de facto right and proper are counter to the survival of our own DNA. This sort of thing cannot be explained from an evolutionary standpoint. I'm talking about things like not stealing, giving to others, helping the sick and weak. Some might argue that these things are better for the herd but that argument is weak and full of holes. Herd survival has little to commend helping the weak and sick or sacrificing oneself to help a stranger.

Again, thanks for you response, but it just doesn't make an argument for moral authority.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:29:03 pm by N80 »
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George

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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2017, 06:14:51 pm »

The problem is that the orders from above clearly change markedly from culture to culture and from one historical era to another. There are four major world religions and a host of minor ones. Over the centuries the orders from above have sometimes been violent and damaging and at other times generally genial and peaceable but their adherents have all claimed at one time or another that they were the echt command. So which set of orders if any is the real deal? They can't all be, can they?

An excellent point. As you say, these things can be hard to sort out. But they don't really address the question at hand regarding a basis for morally binding beliefs. The reason is this: While religions, sects, factions, groups, peoples, nations, cults etc all disagree on many things there are very few if any that disagree on the very basic moral principles such as it is wrong to have sex with your child, or it is wrong to torture babies, or it is wrong to kill for no reason. These are obviously basic and generally agreed upon but the truth is that materialism alone cannot even provide a binding basis for these concepts and so far no one here (or elsewhere, by the way) have been able to make a logically consistent argument that it can. As Rand mentioned, even the great militant atheists like Dennet and Dawkins concede that materialism and specifically evolution provide any moral basis for anything whatsoever. Again, Sarte, Nietzsche and most other existentialists came up with the same conclusion.

And that's important because there seems to be a perception (in this thread) that some of us are making this point as deists. Yes, we agree with it, but it is the thoughtful and honest atheists who fleshed out this idea decades ago. And most of them were horrified by it. And they should be.
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George

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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2017, 06:27:07 pm »

Do you fail to see the irony of accusing me of defying logic when your position has to invoke a deity?

There is no irony there at all. First, let me repeat what I said above: this concept is not mine. The concept of materialism being incapable of supporting moral authority was best expressed by Sartre, Camu and Nietzsche. More contemporarily it has been affirmed by Dawkins, Dennett and other members of the militant atheists sometimes known as the Four Horsemen of Atheism. Second, if you wish to discuss the logic for belief in God then you will need to put on your thinking cap and put on your big boy pants because I will be happy to take that discussion as far as you want to. So no, no irony whatsoever.

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Seems to me that your "moral" is hollow at best. Your moral is: what god deems moral, is moral. Circular argument anyone?

Fine. Take any concept of god or transcendence out the discussion for whatever reason you wish. That does not change the question at hand. You contended, outright, that it is logically consistent to believe in binding moral authority from a strictly secular and materialist standpoint. So far you have not even tried. You have not offered a single argument or fact.

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If we are forced to discuss semantics I think this thread has run it's course. Alan was clear, I was clear. You are trying to build straw men.

Now you are making excuses. The discussion and its terms have to be precise or they are pointless. If you are not up to that level of argument that is not anyone else's fault.

The ball is still in your court. But you know full well you cannot return it if Sartre or Dawkins can't.

And you thought the pill was easy to swallow.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:33:12 pm by N80 »
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George

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Ray

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2017, 09:10:11 pm »

Would we say "You should kill the competition to improve your survival odds"?  Of course not. So in that respect you cannot rely of evolutionarily derived traits as morals. The other problem with this line of thinking is that so many things we consider to be de facto right and proper are counter to the survival of our own DNA. This sort of thing cannot be explained from an evolutionary standpoint. I'm talking about things like not stealing, giving to others, helping the sick and weak. Some might argue that these things are better for the herd but that argument is weak and full of holes. Herd survival has little to commend helping the weak and sick or sacrificing oneself to help a stranger.

Again, thanks for you response, but it just doesn't make an argument for moral authority.

George,
Isn't that what is basically said to all armies engaged in battle? (You not only should kill the competition, but if you don't you'll be in serious trouble.)

Our survival and evolutionary development have depended on the practice of such a 'moral authority' long before we had the brain power to develop a language to articulate such concepts.

All animals compete for resources, and fight or flee when predators appear. It used to be thought that mankind was the only animal that engaged in warfare, until someone observed a group of Chimpanzees walking in line through the forest, and followed them to see where they were going. Their destination was another region where a neighbouring group of Chimpanzees lived, which they viciously slaughtered.

The argument I'm presenting is, what some of us now imagine to be a transcendental moral authority, originating from on high, might in fact be no more than a sophisticated development of an ages-old fundamental awareness of the sorts of actions and behaviour that are necessary for our own survival as a group, or at least helpful for our survival as a group.

To continue with the example of the extinction of Neanderthal Man. That it was due to a failure to adapt to an increasingly cold climate is possibly the main reason, but probably not the only reason. It seems that Neanderthal Man lived in smaller and more isolated groups than Homo Sapiens did at the time, and they would have been at a disadvantage during any conflict with the larger Homo Sapiens groups who were probably more cooperative amongst themselves and better organized.

This gradual awareness and understanding, as language and thought processes developed, that cooperation within the group has a survival advantage, is probably the basis of the more recent moral commandments such as 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' and 'Love thine enemy', which one associates with Christianity.

Such moral concepts stretch back many thousands of years, probably before any written records were made. The original concept is often referred to as The Golden Rule, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. The phrasing changes according to different translations and different cultures, but the underlying meaning is the same in the many examples throughout history. The earliest written record, on Egyptian papyrus, goes back to 1650 BC. However, it's reasonable to presume that the basis of the moral concept of The Golden Rule, goes back much further than the earliest written record that has so far been unearthed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

What I'm suggesting is that the sort of cooperative behaviour that groups of animals seem to instinctively engage in, within their own group, as when ants build an ant hill consisting of a maize of tunnels, is the basis for the later articulation of such principles which we describe as morals.

Of course, in order to strengthen such principles, and make them more effective, the chieftains or rulers of human societies sometimes invoke the concept of an Almighty God whom they, as rulers, claim to have some communication with.  ;)

Have I made a sound case?  ;)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #106 on: January 25, 2017, 12:13:58 am »

This whole discussion of morals and where they come from reminds me of the joke about Moses.  So Moses comes down from the mountain with the tablets of commandments and the people ask him what news he has.  So Moses tells them that he has good news and bad news.  So the people ask him what the good news is and Moses says, "Well, I got Him down to 10." 

And the people respond by asking, "So what's the bad news?"

"Well, adultery.  It's still in."

jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2017, 01:36:27 am »

Fine. Take any concept of god or transcendence out the discussion for whatever reason you wish. That does not change the question at hand. You contended, outright, that it is logically consistent to believe in binding moral authority from a strictly secular and materialist standpoint. So far you have not even tried. You have not offered a single argument or fact.

Whereas you have fallen into the trap of medicine men through the ages - can't understand something? must be a sky fairy!
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2017, 04:01:24 am »

There is no irony there at all. First, let me repeat what I said above: this concept is not mine. The concept of materialism being incapable of supporting moral authority was best expressed by Sartre, Camu and Nietzsche. More contemporarily it has been affirmed by Dawkins, Dennett and other members of the militant atheists sometimes known as the Four Horsemen of Atheism. Second, if you wish to discuss the logic for belief in God then you will need to put on your thinking cap and put on your big boy pants because I will be happy to take that discussion as far as you want to. So no, no irony whatsoever.

Fine. Take any concept of god or transcendence out the discussion for whatever reason you wish. That does not change the question at hand. You contended, outright, that it is logically consistent to believe in binding moral authority from a strictly secular and materialist standpoint. So far you have not even tried. You have not offered a single argument or fact.

Now you are making excuses. The discussion and its terms have to be precise or they are pointless. If you are not up to that level of argument that is not anyone else's fault.

The ball is still in your court. But you know full well you cannot return it if Sartre or Dawkins can't.

And you thought the pill was easy to swallow.

No. That is your straw man. What I said was there is no authority, no force, nothing binding. If we don't feel the need to preserve what we got there is nothing in science to persuade us differently. That is not a hard pill to swallow. That's just the way it is. Yet I feel it strongly, we ought to save the planet for future generations.
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Rob C

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2017, 05:06:06 am »



1...What I'm suggesting is that the sort of cooperative behaviour that groups of animals seem to instinctively engage in, within their own group, as when ants build an ant hill consisting of a maize of tunnels, is the basis for the later articulation of such principles which we describe as morals.


2...Have I made a sound case?  ;)



Ray,

1. You are sewing sowing confusion; but the ants/termites are good farmers nonetheless.

2. No, you have not made a sound case.

;-)

Rob

mecrox

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2017, 05:18:45 am »

An excellent point. As you say, these things can be hard to sort out. But they don't really address the question at hand regarding a basis for morally binding beliefs. The reason is this: While religions, sects, factions, groups, peoples, nations, cults etc all disagree on many things there are very few if any that disagree on the very basic moral principles such as it is wrong to have sex with your child, or it is wrong to torture babies, or it is wrong to kill for no reason. These are obviously basic and generally agreed upon but the truth is that materialism alone cannot even provide a binding basis for these concepts and so far no one here (or elsewhere, by the way) have been able to make a logically consistent argument that it can. As Rand mentioned, even the great militant atheists like Dennet and Dawkins concede that materialism and specifically evolution provide any moral basis for anything whatsoever. Again, Sarte, Nietzsche and most other existentialists came up with the same conclusion.

And that's important because there seems to be a perception (in this thread) that some of us are making this point as deists. Yes, we agree with it, but it is the thoughtful and honest atheists who fleshed out this idea decades ago. And most of them were horrified by it. And they should be.

I have no interest in debating this least of all when umpired by rather tired old Aunt Sally figures like Professor Dawkins. The argument has been endlessly rehearsed in a thousand books and lectures, so we can all read a few and make up our own mind. In my view, it is a waste of time trying to "prove" something which cannot in fact be proven because it depends on an unprovable assertion involving the supernatural. One can believe it, not a problem if that's what someone wants, but give up trying to prove it. It leads nowhere and changes nothing. Morality can be and has been perfectly well explained as the outcome of how human beings relate to each other and form societies, without reference to anything else at all. Agree with that or believe something else. Why should anyone else care? On that basis, there really isn't anything here to debate.

I would suggest that clinging to intellectual positions out of a thirst to "prove"something is no more sensible than clinging to anything else, though I will say that when people have a medical problem they see a doctor who knows what he is doing, not a clergyman. Perhaps there is a lesson here when it comes to stewardship of the planet, to get back to the point of the thread? Here endeth the discussion so far as I am concerned.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:23:24 am by mecrox »
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #111 on: January 25, 2017, 09:47:46 am »

What I said was there is no authority, no force, nothing binding.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you. So you would agree then, from a secular, materialistic standpoint, there is no binding morality? No one can tell anyone else what they should or should not do? Everything is okay? All is permitted?

If so, then you are logically consistent in your belief and you would, therefore, have nothing to say about or to the person who hates polar bears, loves air pollution, is greedy and wants a warm and barren planet. You would have to agree that his beliefs, his private 'morality,' are just as valid as yours even if he has no intellectual basis for holding them.

Good.


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Yet I feel it strongly, we ought to save the planet for future generations.

That's commendable but no more relevant than the feelings of a an extreme right wing robber baron hell bent on destroying the planet for his own personal gain. They are both, by your materialistic philosophy, equally valid and you have no basis for saying he is somehow wrong.
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George

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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #112 on: January 25, 2017, 10:16:01 am »

That's democracy for ya'.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2017, 10:46:15 am »

That's democracy for ya'.

Yep. Anything goes. Everything is okay. What more would anyone want?
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George

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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #114 on: January 25, 2017, 11:44:10 am »

Morality can be and has been perfectly well explained as the outcome of how human beings relate to each other and form societies, without reference to anything else at all. Agree with that or believe something else. Why should anyone else care? On that basis, there really isn't anything here to debate.
Amen!
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DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #115 on: January 25, 2017, 11:52:03 am »

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you. So you would agree then, from a secular, materialistic standpoint, there is no binding morality? No one can tell anyone else what they should or should not do? Everything is okay? All is permitted?

If so, then you are logically consistent in your belief and you would, therefore, have nothing to say about or to the person who hates polar bears, loves air pollution, is greedy and wants a warm and barren planet. You would have to agree that his beliefs, his private 'morality,' are just as valid as yours even if he has no intellectual basis for holding them.

Good.

That's commendable but no more relevant than the feelings of a an extreme right wing robber baron hell bent on destroying the planet for his own personal gain. They are both, by your materialistic philosophy, equally valid and you have no basis for saying he is somehow wrong.

I sincerely apologize for involving myself in this again. I said before that morality is a human construct. There is no "binding" morality from on high or anywhere else. An extreme right wing robber baron hell bent on destroying the planet for his own personal gain is operating within his own set of morals. Large numbers of people feel environmental stewardship is far less important than wealth. They may not be "hell bent on destroying the planet" but that's less important than making lots of money. America just elected a government packed with such people so something close to half the population has moral beliefs that are similar to varying degrees. There are also lots of people who think otherwise. We argue about it and try to convince others to adopt our own "morals" but it seldom works. When it does it is often because the other person is convinced the alternative morals are personally beneficial. I see no evidence of anything "binding" anyone to any standard of conduct except human-made laws that bind by virtue of penalties.

If there was a binding morality we would be bound, as you previously said, to be good stewards of the planet. Yet we are not. That "experiment" shows the theory is incorrect.
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N80

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2017, 02:59:50 pm »

I sincerely apologize for involving myself in this again. I said before that morality is a human construct. There is no "binding" morality from on high or anywhere else.

From a materialist standpoint that is absolutely correct.

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I see no evidence of anything "binding" anyone to any standard of conduct except human-made laws that bind by virtue of penalties.

Again, this is absolutely correct. This is also the doctrine, perfectly stated, of might makes right. By this same standard there is no logical consistency in saying Hitler was wrong for incinerating homosexuals or that the antebellum US was wrong for codifying chattel slavery. You cannot even say that they should not have done these things. Genocide and slavery in both of these cases where norms of the culture at the time and fully supported by the law and the leaders. That would be a perfect definition of your "human construct" definition of morality. By your definition, slavery was 'moral'. If you can live with that reality, and it IS the reality of materialism then you are an honest, thoughtful, logically consistent materialist. But as soon as you suggest that someone else ought to do something then you are no longer logically consistent. As soon as you suggest that slavery is always wrong and always to be proscribed you are no longer being logically consistent. The destructive and avaricious, the hateful and the violent are as correct and proper in their attitudes and actions as the environmentalist or the civil rights advocate.

Likewise, if you say I should protect the planet, you are logically inconsistent. If you say I must protect the planet and make me do so at the threat of violence (the only real teeth of any law) then might-makes-right is your belief structure.

I'm glad you understand this. I'm sad that it seems okay to you or anyone else because by this standard neither evil or good exist.

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If there was a binding morality we would be bound, as you previously said, to be good stewards of the planet. Yet we are not. That "experiment" shows the theory is incorrect.

That statement does not follow logically and I don't understand what you are trying to say. Even the existence of a morally binding and transcendent moral code does not mean that it is followed. That does not impune the moral in any way. It simply proves that evil exists.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:10:31 pm by N80 »
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George

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jeremyrh

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2017, 03:38:19 pm »

From a materialist standpoint that is absolutely correct.

From another standpoint - be nice cos the sky fairy says so!!!

More seriously - your problem is that you don't know why people do what they do. No shame in that - ask an ant why they spend their lives carrying crumbs to the nest and they won't know either, but they do it, and from an exterior vantage point it appears to be their moral duty. Humans are more complex than ants, so your chances of working out the details of what motivates them is slim. Cover up your failure with long winded tomes on morality if you wish, but don't expect to convince anyone.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Who needs the Northern or Southern Poles?
« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2017, 05:46:03 pm »

From a materialist standpoint that is absolutely correct.

Again, this is absolutely correct. This is also the doctrine, perfectly stated, of might makes right. By this same standard there is no logical consistency in saying Hitler was wrong for incinerating homosexuals or that the antebellum US was wrong for codifying chattel slavery. You cannot even say that they should not have done these things. Genocide and slavery in both of these cases where norms of the culture at the time and fully supported by the law and the leaders. That would be a perfect definition of your "human construct" definition of morality. By your definition, slavery was 'moral'. If you can live with that reality, and it IS the reality of materialism then you are an honest, thoughtful, logically consistent materialist. But as soon as you suggest that someone else ought to do something then you are no longer logically consistent. As soon as you suggest that slavery is always wrong and always to be proscribed you are no longer being logically consistent. The destructive and avaricious, the hateful and the violent are as correct and proper in their attitudes and actions as the environmentalist or the civil rights advocate.

Likewise, if you say I should protect the planet, you are logically inconsistent. If you say I must protect the planet and make me do so at the threat of violence (the only real teeth of any law) then might-makes-right is your belief structure.

I'm glad you understand this. I'm sad that it seems okay to you or anyone else because by this standard neither evil or good exist.

That statement does not follow logically and I don't understand what you are trying to say. Even the existence of a morally binding and transcendent moral code does not mean that it is followed. That does not impune the moral in any way. It simply proves that evil exists.

Obviously, according to Hitler's moral code Hitler was not wrong. Those in his regime obviously had moral codes that allowed them to participate in his plans. Many others thought at least some aspects of Hitler's moral code were abhorrent and they are the only reason he did not end up dominating the world. It's pretty simple. Each of us wants our own morals to prevail. That is why nearly every argument of principal exists. Sometimes it rises to the level of war and violence and sometimes it is just a friendly disagreement.

By my definition and that of a large consensus of humanity, slavery is not moral. By the definition of those who fought to keep it around it obviously was moral. There is nothing illogical about that, and nothing that makes it less terrible in my eyes or those who share my opinion of it. Morality is relative to the person, and there is often a large consensus of what is moral, as in the case of murder, robbery, etc. When that happens people tend to make laws with penalties to enforce their morals with penalties for violating them. Good and evil exist relative to each person and relative to the consensus of society. If you rob someone and get caught you go to jail. If a nation state performs what most of us think are sufficiently egregious acts there is a war. Regardless of my belief structure or yours, that is how the world works, and how it has always worked.

If I say you should protect the planet I'm acting according to my own beliefs, consistent with everything I've described. "Should" is based on what I think is right. It is relative to me. Ask the CEO of Exxon and you'll get a different "should". I don't see anything illogical or inconsistent in that. You will, but I don't care enough to argue my point forever, and why we think what we think has no effect on anything. What we think does.
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