What does it take?

[Justinr]

Justin, please do not compare countries the size and population of a postage stamp with America (no offense meant, I love Holland). Holland and similar countries are small, with homogenous population, with same or similar work ethic, ethnic background and religion.

This was a point I was going to make earlier, we often speak of Americans as being all the same but it is a huge and diverse population which is a mistake and I for one appreciate that which is why I have couched my comments in terms of America as a country rather than Americans as individuals.

Anyhow, it wasn't me that brought the Netherlands into the conversation.

[RSL]

I have trouble detecting a point that makes sense, unless your point was that with lower gun possession one gets fewer gun related incidents. Yes, we do have (vastly) fewer incidents, in fact basically all countries have fewer gun deaths pro capita than in the USA. I wouldn't be proud of such a number one position.

Cheers,
Bart

I realize you have the kind of trouble, Bart. Better re-read what I said and then what you said.

[RSL]

Justin, please do not compare countries the size and population of a postage stamp with America (no offense meant, I love Holland). Holland and similar countries are small, with homogenous population, with same or similar work ethic, ethnic background and religion.

The Irish came; the Germans came; the Italians came; many others came. They integrated, sometimes with difficulty, and became part of the American culture. In the thirties, forties, and fifties most people outside cities had guns, but the murder rate was relatively low. For many years now we've had people coming who refuse to integrate. And of course the murder rate climbs. Keep watching the murder rate in European countries with a Muslim influx.

[Justinr]

The Irish came; the Germans came; the Italians came; many others came. They integrated, sometimes with difficulty, and became part of the American culture. In the thirties, forties, and fifties most people outside cities had guns, but the murder rate was relatively low. For many years now we've had people coming who refuse to integrate. And of course the murder rate climbs. Keep watching the murder rate in European countries with a Muslim influx.

Much the same as the Netherlands really -

According to Eurostat, in 2010 there were 1.8 million foreign-born residents in the Netherlands, corresponding to 11.1% of the total population. Of these, 1.4 million (8.5%) were born outside the EU and 0.428 million (2.6%) were born in another EU Member State.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherlands

The figure for America is 12.9%   https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Aye, but the point being made was about deaths from various weapons.

The Virginia Tech attack is the deadliest mass shooting incident in American history (before Orlando - 49 dead): 32 dead

At least 50 people died in an attack last month at a coalmine in China - the weapon? - knives

[Justinr]

The Virginia Tech attack is the deadliest mass shooting incident in American history (before Orlando - 49 dead): 32 dead

At least 50 people died in an attack last month at a coalmine in China - the weapon? - knives

Come come Slobodan, earlier you were chiding me for comparing the Netherlands with the US and now you are holding up under the same light a politically motivated gang/army of activists with a lone gunman who had experienced psychiatric problems in his youth!

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Justin, please do not compare countries the size and population of a postage stamp with America (no offense meant, I love Holland). Holland and similar countries are small, with homogenous population, with same or similar work ethic, ethnic background and religion.

Don't let size fool you, we are only a few positions (9th USA — GNP pro capita: $57,04513 and 13th Netherlands — GNP pro capita: $48,797) behind the USA on the list of wealthiest economies in the world. Other sources put the Netherlands on the 6th position of wealthiest countries of the world (depending on what's included, such as pension reserves). Also, as a country that depends on its international trade, we have a very diverse population with many ethnic and cultural backgrounds.

As for homogeneity, a recent study shows that our largest city Amsterdam (only 800,000 inhabitants) counts some 178 different registered nationalities (New York counts some 150 nationalities on a population of 9.5 million), our second largest city Rotterdam (only 600,000 inhabitants) counts some 173 different registered nationalities. Sure there are some tensions, as in any such densely packed society.

But then that's all very much off topic for this thread, just wanted to correct some facts and suggestions.

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Come come Slobodan, earlier you were chiding me for comparing the Netherlands with the US and now you are holding up under the same light a politically motivated gang/army of activists with a lone gunman who had experienced psychiatric problems in his youth!

I thought we were debating weapons, not minds? Since the OP subject is mass murders, and the premise is that without guns there wouldn't be that many casualties, I was just proving otherwise.

But if you want to bring in mentally ill, how about this: "A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 25 dead and some 115 injured. "

Most of the victims were school children, even kindergarteners.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... As for homogeneity, a recent study shows that our largest city Amsterdam (only 800,000 inhabitants) counts some 178 different registered nationalities...

Ah, the usual misuse of stats. Those 178 are not equally distributed, are they? So that each nationality represents 0.56% of the overall population? In other words, in the city of Amsterdam, there are 4,480 Serbs and also 4,480 native Dutch?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Ah, the usual misuse of stats. Those 178 are not equally distributed, are they? So that each nationality represents 0.56% of the overall population? In other words, in the city of Amsterdam, there are 4,480 Serbs and also 4,480 native Dutch?

I'm sure you've checked the stats for e.g. New York or other large cities, or do you want me to do that for you? Smokescreens tickle my curiosity ...

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... nobody sets out to kill somebody else in a car...

"... a truck drove into a large crowd during Bastille Day celebrations Thursday night, officials said. A local official told French TV there were "about 30 73 dead."

No machine gun needed.

[Justinr]

"... a truck drove into a large crowd during Bastille Day celebrations Thursday night, officials said. A local official told French TV there were "about 30 dead."

No machine gun needed.

A witness has told the Associated Press that he saw the truck driver emerge from the vehicle with a gun and start shooting after ploughing into the crowd.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

But lets not go trying to score points off such a terrible tragedy eh.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

A witness has told the Associated Press that he saw the truck driver emerge from the vehicle with a gun and start shooting after ploughing into the crowd....

Preliminary information from French officials is that there was one individual in the truck, according to a U.S. law enforcement official briefed on the attack. The individual, a male, was killed by police and it does not appear there was any gunfire from the truck, according to the official.

Too early to know the exact details, but it doesn't change my point that determined individuals, terrorists or lunatics, do not necessarily need guns.

[Peter McLennan]

For many years now we've had people coming who refuse to integrate. And of course the murder rate climbs.

OMFG.

"of course" ?  Really?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

OMFG...

Will you please stop with this profanity? This was a reasonably civilized thread so far.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Will you please stop with this profanity? This was a reasonably civilized thread so far.

I agree, OMG (in a metaphorical sense) would have been enough.

Cheers,
Bart

[jfirneno]

Dallas massacre

What does it take for Americans to see that their gun laws are f**ked up?

Depressed,

This was the quote that began this thread.  Okay, so what are the gun laws like in France?  Pretty tough right?

What can you say now?  What does it take for the French to see that their white freight truck laws are f**ked up? 

See, it doesn't make sense.  When people want to murder you they'll use whatever comes to hand.

Maybe instead of blaming the victims we can see what the killers have in common.  And then act accordingly.

[Peter McLennan]

Will you please stop with this profanity?

So sorry to have offended your tender ears.

Some of the opinions expressed here are far more profane in my opinion.

[Justinr]

Too early to know the exact details, but it doesn't change my point that determined individuals, terrorists or lunatics, do not necessarily need guns.

I never said they did, only that access to them makes their task easier, their killing sprees more deadly and probably more likely. At the end of a shooting many turn the gun upon themselves so as not to have to face the consequences, has there ever been a recorded incidence of somebody beating themselves to death with a baseball bat? 

[RSL]

What France needs now is stricter truck laws. Truck free zones probably would help.