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Author Topic: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)  (Read 51740 times)

GWGill

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2016, 10:05:06 am »

So in that regard, I have one question and one comment. The question is about the reason for the degradation. You mention the possibility of poor initial design. I really wonder about that. OSX on the whole is a fine operating system, but Apple has been putting a tremendous effort into continued evolution and updating to take advantage of new technologies, enhanced technologies and most importantly system security. Would you rule out the possibility that the changes they are making are in response to these factors rather than poor initial design?
Apples development of a 32 bit, protected mode operating system was an unbelievable circus. They had several go's at it themselves (Pink, Taligent, Copeland), before buying someone else's (NeXTSTEP), all the while ignoring established OS alternatives (UNIX).  Microsoft's development of WindowsNT makes a sobering comparison, and Dave Cutler's work has really stood the test of time. That Apple ended up with something of a dogs breakfast of API's that don't seem to have anticipate future requirements very well, would seem to be one result of the convoluted development history.   
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And a supplementary, is it not the case that Apple sends developers the new development materials well ahead of the changes being implemented to give other application developers time to adapt (and yes, I hear you about the time and cost involved)?
If one has the time and resources to look into this as an application developer, that's great. But providing such doesn't compensate for having to re-write a bunch of code that achieves exactly the same outcome, just because  the API's have been changed.
[ For a really outrageous historical example, Apple and Adobe come up once again, when Apple reneged on it's commitment to Carbon, and Adobe had to completely re-write the GUI of application like Photoshop using Cocoa. ]
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i.e. as an application developer, you would want to thoroughly pretest an update before issuing it, especially knowing what you do about how changes to the system environment under the hood could affect your product in unexpected ways.
That's an ideal situation, but once again, time and resourcse impose limitations. If one has a comprehensive automated testing environment, then that helps a lot - but automated testing suit's for GUI based applications are hard, and they themselves need a lot of maintanence as an application and OS evolve. So expecting an application vendor, even one as well heeled as Adobe to test every possible combination of OS, hardware platform, application, and application feature is a tall order. The combinatorial explosion is hard to tame, and one mechanism for taming it is to try and divide things into independent layers - say that the OS provides a stable and dependable API, so that different OS versions are not a variable!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2016, 10:11:36 am »

I hear you about Apple, but based on their filings, I think Adobe's balance sheet is strong enough to support the wherewithal to keep their applications functioning correctly. If they don't of course the balance sheet is at risk. Nothing prevents Adobe from working with Apple to the extent needed for their own Adobe products survive the tempest, if this is what it takes. They must all know each other pretty well!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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elolaugesen

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2016, 10:47:37 am »

Hi:  followed the suggested procedures to restore the older version of photoshop I now have 16.0.0 installed instead of 17.0.0.  the cloud shows upgrade to this version  Adobe photoshop 2015.1.2    and numerous fixes etc....  also mentions Raw9.6

The interesting thing is that the 2015.0 version already included  new Raw 9.6.



 
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2016, 11:22:57 am »

One of the advantages to Windows is that MSFT tries to keep things backwards compatible.  There has been no firmware update for the Win driver since October 2013.  The drivers will have a new version when Epson release new papers and they include the profiles and paper settings in the driver download.
Try to tell this to someone who moves from 32 bit Windows XP to 64 bit Windows 7 or from Windows 7 to Windows 10. You will be surpised that their so called backwards compatibility does not strench far enough backwards to support devices that some may still use...
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2016, 11:27:58 am »

Try to tell this to someone who moves from 32 bit Windows XP to 64 bit Windows 7 or from Windows 7 to Windows 10. You will be surpised that their so called backwards compatibility does not strench far enough backwards to support devices that some may still use...

This takes us a bit off-topic, but I think it important to recognize that it takes at least two to tango; the manufacturers of those devices will have to upgrade their drivers periodically regardless of how much effort Microsoft puts into backward compatibility - they can't be expected to cover every one of the thousands of devices going ions of time back. That gets unreasonable. If the device manufacturers decide to stop support at some point, well, time to change.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2016, 11:28:18 am »

Here is a question that just popped into my head after email from someone: does the OS X version matter? I'm on 10.11.5. When did this so called API of Apple's change? Does anyone here with a pretty old version of OS X, say 10.10 encounter this bug?
The API change for ColorSync (if Adobe were referring to this) were supposedly deprecated from 10.6 - https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/GraphicsImaging/Reference/ColorSync_Manager/index.html
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2016, 11:29:50 am »

This takes us a bit off-topic, but I think it important to recognize that it takes at least two to tango; the manufacturers of those devices will have to upgrade their drivers periodically regardless of how much effort Microsoft puts into backward compatibility - they can't be expected to cover every one of the thousands of devices going ions of time back. That gets unreasonable. If the device manufacturers decide to stop support at some point, well, time to change.
My point was that Microsoft is not significantly better that Apple in this respect.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2016, 11:36:15 am »

My point was that Microsoft is not significantly better that Apple in this respect.

OK, understood. But I was on Windows till 2010 and then switched to Mac. I think I did give up some sustained reliability in the realm of colour managed printing in making that move. This is one area where I believe Microsoft has performed better.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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lhodaniel

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2016, 03:20:38 pm »

But if the Windows drivers are still working fine, and can be color profiled reliably, that's not a criticism - that's a boast! An operating system so stable, and drivers written so well that they still don't need updating!

Point well taken. When either Win 8 or 8.1 came out (I forget which), the Epson web site stated that the 7600 was not compatible. Indeed the drivers would not find the printer. That caused me to use PrintFab beta for awhile, which of course meant creating new profiles for that and dealing with the beta's non-intuitive orientation scheme with rolls. (I can't tell you how many cross-way prints i started.)  Sometime later I discovered that the Epson drivers would correctly install if one would simply disable driver signing temporariliy when installing them. That also works for Win 10, or did until last Dec. It would have been nice for Epson to say that. It would have saved me time, paper, ink, etc.

Lloyd
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Mac Mahon

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2016, 06:48:31 pm »

...Switching development kits is something that has to be done to keep up with the API churn. The question is really whether Adobe have misunderstood something about the new API's, or whether Apple have not implemented them as expected. Either is possible, and pretty likely if Apples documentation of it's colorsync API's is as good as it was last time I looked for it (i.e. it didn't exist). I think it's reasonable to think that Adobe hasn't done the sort of sanity checking of  it's print path that one would hope for though.
...
Graeme
What seems to have happened here is that colour management has been compromised.  In my case, printing from LR2015.6 with a good custom profile, which has worked fine with earlier versions of Lightroom, and still works with other (non-Adobe) apps with the current drivers and OS (and presumably the same API), introduces noticeable colour desaturation and banding. 
I do not have your colour management or programming background so this may be nonsense:  but it is as if the handoff of the image to the driver has gone through some kind of clipped profile connection space.  Is it possible that an API change could be responsible for that?
Tim
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GWGill

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2016, 08:57:46 pm »

Try to tell this to someone who moves from 32 bit Windows XP to 64 bit Windows 7 or from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
It's not unreasonable that kernel drivers be the same code space as the kernel.

This is not to say that Microsoft don't carefully let support drop in older operating systems, to "incentivize" people to upgrade.
Fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with Windows XP - the kernel differences between it and Win 10 are minor. But why give people free upgrades, when you can make them pay, as well as moving them along your agenda to take over the phone and tablet space, and bolster your "App store" which adds a 30% tax on everything ?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2016, 10:06:49 pm »

So do you mean by this that Windows 10 should be about as insecure as Windows XP, except that support has ceased for the latter, while vulnerabilities will be patched as discovered for the former?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2016, 04:30:28 am »

So do you mean by this that Windows 10 should be about as insecure as Windows XP, except that support has ceased for the latter, while vulnerabilities will be patched as discovered for the former?
It is as secure as the software it runs and it still runs pretty much the same - just actively patched/maintained by MS as opposed to XP.
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elolaugesen

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2016, 02:37:37 am »

For those concerned about using Create Cloud  to install older version of Photoshop.  It works.  I installed the 2015.0 version they showed.  Then, voila, they indicated there was an update available.  Next day I downloaded and installed the 2015.1.2 update.  It seems to run fine. Used it all day no issues.  As to colors, I have no tools to verify.  Just let my other half(the artist) judge images from before and after.  She has an amazing eye for colors.  No issues to date.

Only thing to point out if you have any extensions installed (like PerfectResize(GenuineFractels)) etc..  you must move them over manually from the other photoshop folders.

I now have 2 versions of photoshop 2015 installed and no issues so far.    I am waiting for adobe to tell me there is something wrong with my subscription???
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John Chardine

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2016, 09:34:14 am »

Just to say, I have a printing problem along the lines described in this thread with my aged Epson SP7600. I print from Lr with the latest version (CC 2015.6) installed, and a Mac with the latest OS installed (10.11.5 El Capitan). With my particular combo of paper (Velvet Fine Art in this case) and pigment inks (American Inkjet Systems) I am now seeing a strong reddish/magenta cast to the images. Saw exactly same problem with latest Photoshop. Tried letting printer handle colour management and then set various combinations of Epson Color Controls, or Colorsync with correct paper profile chosen, and Color Settings (no color adjustment, vivid, photo-realistic) and colour cast was gone.

I think this experiment says something about what might be causing the problem. Specifically, if I print from latest Lr and select the correct icc paper profile under Color Management I get the color cast. If instead I select Managed by Printer under Color Management and then under Print Settings-Color Matching I select Colorsync and choose the same icc paper profile, the cast disappears. Any ideas here from those of you who know what's going on under the hood?

As a temporary fix I rolled back to Lr CC 2015.4 and I am printing as usual (no cast, happy with output and color management). Not sure if the problem occurs with 2015.5.

By the way this problem is not affecting all Epson printers. My R2000 spits out nice looking prints with the newest version of Lr and Ps, and a friend's R3000 does the same thing. It might be worthwhile compiling a list of printers that are affected as this may say something about the root-cause of the problem.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 05:58:19 pm by John Chardine »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2016, 10:53:51 am »

Interesting- it suggests to me that colour management using colour management controlled by the application is whacked for Epson professional printers on Mac OSX El Capitan. But as a previous post on one the three threads where this issue is mentioned also raised the fact of a Canon professional printer facing the same problem, the specific printer model is not likely the generic cause of the problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mac Mahon

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2016, 03:34:28 am »

... Specifically, if I print from latest Lr and select the correct icc paper profile under Color Management I get the color cast. If instead I select Managed by Printer under Color Management and then under Print Settings-Color Matching I select Colorsync and choose the same icc paper profile, the cast disappears. Any ideas here from those of you who know what's going on under the hood?
...
I just tried to replicate this.  Reinstalled 2015.6.  Latest driver for SC-P800, and MacOS 10.11.5.

Print (i) selecting my custom ICC profile for color management in LR's print module. 
Print (ii) using "managed by printer" then selecting Colorsync and my custom profile in the Color Matching dropdown in the driver.

Result not like John's sadly.  Print (i) is still wrong, as it has been since 2015.6; but print (ii) is really awful!  a deep gray cast over the whole test image.

Might be a clue for Adobe in this though.  Should these two options give such different results?  It does suggest something awry in the application handoff doesn't it?

Anyway:  back to LR2015.5.1 yet again.  Sigh....

Tim
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Mac Mahon

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2016, 03:54:20 am »

... Should these two options give such different results?  ...

Apparently they should.  I just repeated the exercise in 2015.5.1  Going via 'Mananged by Printer" and then choosing Colorsync and my custom profile still gives the grey coat.  I misunderstood something there...

Tim
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Chas

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2016, 01:17:29 pm »

Interesting- it suggests to me that colour management using colour management controlled by the application is whacked for Epson professional printers on Mac OSX El Capitan

Same problem appeared here with latest PS and Epson 7800 on Yosemite, not El Capitan, using long standing custom profile.

But if I do the print profile conversion manually in PS and then print from Adobe Print Utility, it gives the correct result.
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RHPS

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2016, 04:42:25 pm »

And it's not just Epson Pro printers. I did a couple of profiles last week for a friend's Canon Pro-100. The profiles verified perfectly but the prints from PS (latest CC version) showed a noticeable red cast in the greys and other colours were off in various degrees. Converting to the profile in PS and printing through ACPU (on the same new iMac) gives correct colour. Unfortunately not a terribly convenient work-around.
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