Brexit

[eronald]

Shoulda eaten Italian!

Rob

Shoulda eaten alone.

Edmund

[Alan Klein]

From what I understand from a couple of people I know who have worked at Brussels, Britain has a trouble maker reputation for still getting changes and amendments made to draft EC Directives and Regulations long after everyone else is happy for them to go to the vote. But as you say other countries are less concerned because they carry on regardless, where as we Brits actually try to implement them.

Cheers,

Graham

The Brits have to be who they are.  Do you want to become like some countries in the EU who lied about their affairs to get in and continued to lie to get subsidized?  If you sleep with dogs, you get fleas.

[myotis]

The Brits have to be who they are.  Do you want to become like some countries in the EU who lied about their affairs to get in and continued to lie to get subsidized?  If you sleep with dogs, you get fleas.

I have no idea why being in Europe would stop us being who we are. I see no threat to my Britishness, from being in Europe, just as I see no threat to my Scottishness by being part of the UK.

But maybe that is at the root of difference between those who want to leave or stay (the EU, or the UK), those of us who feel we can be who we are and still benefit from being part of something bigger, and those who don't.

Cheers,
Graham

[pegelli]

....... Why would you want to trust some unelected gnomes in Brussels to do right by you? .......

Alan, I think you have fallen for another popular misconception. It's one of these cases where if (some) politicians say it often enough people will start believing it.

- The European parliament is elected by the people of Europe
- No European law or regulation can come into effect without a majority support in the European parliament
- There are many countries (including the US) where the members of government do not have to be picked from the chosen representatives from the parliament (senate/house/.....)

So in my mind the picture that everything bad that comes from Brussels is cooked up by unelected gnomes is not correct

[myotis]

Alan, I think you have fallen for another popular misconception. It's one of these cases where if (some) politicians say it often enough people will start believing it.

- The European parliament is elected by the people of Europe
- No European law or regulation can come into effect without a majority support in the European parliament
- There are many countries (including the US) where the members of government do not have to be picked from the chosen representatives from the parliament (senate/house/.....)

So in my mind the picture that everything bad that comes from Brussels is cooked up by unelected gnomes is not correct

The misconception is even worse that that, because Britain also helps choose which legislation should be created, and the British Government helps approve this legislation before its put to the elected European MP to vote on.  British lawyers are involved in drafting the legislation and I think the Human Right legislation was entirely drafted by British Lawyers.

Of the 2500 pieces of EC legislation passed, Britain has only voted "against" around 50.

Even then, there is an opportunity to modify EC Directives at member state level to better suit local circumstances, as long as the principles of the Directive are upheld.  EC Regulations are different as they often (always) involve "equal competition" across the EC e,g Organic food standards, and these need to be transposed word for word into British Law.

Cheers,

Graham

[Rob C]

I have no idea why being in Europe would stop us being who we are. I see no threat to my Britishness, from being in Europe, just as I see no threat to my Scottishness by being part of the UK.

But maybe that is at the root of difference between those who want to leave or stay (the EU, or the UK), those of us who feel we can be who we are and still benefit from being part of something bigger, and those who don't.

Cheers,
Graham

Graham, one fatal flaw: what you write makes sense. That will never do.

;-)

Rob

[Chairman Bill]

I think you'll find that May's priorities are 1) May, 2) The Tory Party, 3) Er, there is no number 3

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I have no idea why being in Europe would stop us being who we are. I see no threat to my Britishness, from being in Europe, just as I see no threat to my Scottishness by being part of the UK.

But maybe that is at the root of difference between those who want to leave or stay (the EU, or the UK), those of us who feel we can be who we are and still benefit from being part of something bigger, and those who don't.

That's the key: feeling.

I see this debate often framed in terms of right vs. wrong, where each side tries to portray the other as wrong, using facts (or "facts"). In reality, each side only feels certain way. And the majority felt the need to leave. That's about it.

It is like arguing with your partner why he/she shouldn't leave you, using scientific evidence and logic: "But honey, you'd pay more tax, filing as single." Try that next time and see how it works for you (rhetorical you).

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I think you have fallen for another popular misconception. It's one of these cases where if (some) politicians say it often enough people will start believing it.

- The European parliament is elected by the people of Europe
- No European law or regulation can come into effect without a majority support in the European parliament
- There are many countries (including the US) where the members of government do not have to be picked from the chosen representatives from the parliament (senate/house/.....)

So in my mind the picture that everything bad that comes from Brussels is cooked up by unelected gnomes is not correct

That's  exactly why there's a problem.   The European Parliament is not British.  Britain only has one vote in the European Parliament and eventually the representatives vote to go along in order to get along.   Many British see Europe forcing them to live ways they don't want to live.  Hence Brexit.

Despite what you think, most people are nationalistic.  You may talk about being "European".  But when push comes to shove, you're German, or British, or Italian, or Greek.  You want your fellow citizens to run your country not some outsiders.  You could sense the discontent with what happened during the Greece bailout crisis.  That was a tip of the iceberg.  When the next economic crisis hits, and many countries have problems, the people in the more solid nations will not put up with any more bailouts.    It will become a sinking ship. The EU will fall apart. The British will be happy they made the choice to get out early. 

[myotis]

That's the key: feeling.

I agree, and suspect most were only looking for the "facts" that validated their feelings.

Cheers,

Graham

[pegelli]

That's  exactly why there's a problem.   The European Parliament is not British. 

Alan, your point was that it were unelected gnomes that made the rules for the Brits which I pointed out is not correct. You didn't say that there were too few Brits in the European parliament, so your rebuttal is besides the point. The parliament was elected, but not only by the Brits, but by all Europeans.

Secondly as the poster after me pointed out, GB only opposed 50 of 2500 legislations and that was the choice of either the UK parliament or the UK government. If Europe really was so bad why didn't they oppose more?

[eronald]

That's the key: feeling.

I see this debate often framed in terms of right vs. wrong, where each side tries to portray the other as wrong, using facts (or "facts"). In reality, each side only feels certain way. And the majority felt the need to leave. That's about it.

It is like arguing with your partner why he/she shouldn't leave you, using scientific evidence and logic: "But honey, you'd pay more tax, filing as single." Try that next time and see how it works for you (rhetorical you).

Yes, except some of use have the opposite attitude - "You' don't love me, no need to prolong this, there's the door"!
And that's exactly what the other Europeans are now telling the UK.

Edmund

[Rob C]

Yes, except some of use have the opposite attitude - "You' don't love me, no need to prolong this, there's the door"!
And that's exactly what the other Europeans are now telling the UK.

Edmund

And could you blame them?

I wish somebody would market a T-shirt I could wear saying: "I wanted to Stay!" Might help me remain on the books of the Health Service. I'd wear it every time I had to pick up my almost-free medications.

Dumbasses! Break a leg if you come on holiday without insurance!

You see? I'm the forgiving type, not bitter in the least.

;-)

Rob

[Manoli]

Yes, except some of use have the opposite attitude - "You' don't love me, no need to prolong this, there's the door"!
And that's exactly what the other Europeans are now telling the UK.

Edmund

In a nutshell, yes.
There's an interesting op-ed piece by MEP Sylvie Goulard, which touches on this in the Ft today. The link should work ..

https://www.ft.com/content/58c47ba4-a1ed-11e6-aa83-bcb58d1d2193

" If Britain leaves the EU, the 27 remaining EU members will have to agree and the European Parliament will need to give its consent. The British cannot expect their partners to give up the core principles of the EU nor should the powerful dynamics that will shape tomorrow’s Europe be underestimated.

Article 50 foresees the sovereign right of a country to leave the EU, not to reshape it. Only the UK has held a referendum but public opinion in other countries is calling for change and no one knows where that could lead. "

[pegelli]

This is only half the story.

The EU has a 2 tier legislative process. Maybe the UK only opposed 50 bills in the Council Of Ministers but the bills then go to the EU Parliament to be debated by and voted on by the elected MEPs. In this chamber the UK MEPs have been on the losing side in over 50% of votes in the last few years.

That's democracy at work, the UK is getting Brexit with slightly under 52% of the votes in the referendum, so how about the slightly more then 48% that wanted to stay? Very little sympathy for them from the Brexit supporters. So this shoe fits the other foot as well.

Also if they opposed only 50 out of 2500 in the council of ministers and they were so "bad" that 50% op the UK MEP's in the European parliament were against them how did they get away with that in the parliament back in London? 

[myotis]

This is only half the story.

The EU has a 2 tier legislative process. Maybe the UK only opposed 50 bills in the Council Of Ministers but the bills then go to the EU Parliament to be debated by and voted on by the elected MEPs. In this chamber the UK MEPs have been on the losing side in over 50% of votes in the last few years.

Agreed, except its probably less than half the story.

However, you are correct that this is the Council of Ministers, but as this is where the British Government has it's vote, this would seem to be the relevant number given the desire for British Sovereignty. But even here Britain has been voting against things more often in recent years.

However, its an interesting observation to see how often the British Government has voted differently to the British MEPs.

There is some more information on this here if anyone is interested  https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

Cheers,
Graham

[Jeremy Roussak]

Alan, your point was that it were unelected gnomes that made the rules for the Brits which I pointed out is not correct. You didn't say that there were too few Brits in the European parliament, so your rebuttal is besides the point. The parliament was elected, but not only by the Brits, but by all Europeans.

There's no perceived distinction between "unelected" and "elected but not by us".

The 2 major parties in the UK are both big fans of first past the post. This has kept one or other of them (with a slight blip in 2010) in power for the last century. That is why none of their politicians
on the losing side are complaining. They see proportional representation as worse than Brexit.

We had a referendum about that, too. The vote, by a substantial majority (about 2:1, I think), was for the status quo.

Jeremy

[pegelli]

There's no perceived distinction between "unelected" and "elected but not by us".

But there is a real distinction, "unelected" means not elected, i.e. appointed, "not elected by us" just means that. And even the latter isn't a true statement, the UK had several elected MEP's in the European parliament so a more accurate description should be "not all of them elected by us".

[Alan Klein]

Alan, your point was that it were unelected gnomes that made the rules for the Brits which I pointed out is not correct. You didn't say that there were too few Brits in the European parliament, so your rebuttal is besides the point. The parliament was elected, but not only by the Brits, but by all Europeans.

Secondly as the poster after me pointed out, GB only opposed 50 of 2500 legislations and that was the choice of either the UK parliament or the UK government. If Europe really was so bad why didn't they oppose more?

You're comments support my point.  There are too few Brits in the EU parliament. The people who voted from Brexit don't want foreigners who make up 95% of the EU parliament telling them how they should live.   I'm sure most of the 2500 laws and edicts had to do with trade issues that were acceptable to the Brits.  The problem Brexit voters have is not trade.   It's the other things such as immigration, visas, etc.  The Brexits don't want others to tell them what to do in these areas because it's interfering with British sovereignty and Brits right to control their political destiny directly.   

Someone else mentioned above that there are many people in continental Europe who feel the same way.  It's just that the Brits have been the only ones who have had a referendum.  One day everyone is going to head for the exits. 

[Alan Klein]

But there is a real distinction, "unelected" means not elected, i.e. appointed, "not elected by us" just means that. And even the latter isn't a true statement, the UK had several elected MEP's in the European parliament so a more accurate description should be "not all of them elected by us".

You're playing word games. You're slicing and dicing sentences to create some meaning that really isn't there.  The bottom line is the EU Parliament, made up of mostly foreigners, is telling Britain how they have to run their own country.  And the Brits object.  They're willing to sacrifice short term economic gains for long term political sovereignty. 

We're seeing the same thing play out here in America with Trump and Senator Sanders who ran against Hillary Clinton in the Democrat nomination.  Both Trump and Sanders are calling for America to come home.  They both object, right or wrong, to bad international trade deals and other economic and fiscal policies that favor those in power.  Although they come at it from different directions and have their own ways of addressing it, they both want to diminish power at the top of the American political and business elite that have left the middle class behind.  American's resentment may not be enough to beat Hillary Clinton who represents the entrenched power because there are too many other factors at play.  These include the fact that the entire political and economic power structures are pushing for her to win.  People in Britain, America, and other places are rising up against the power structure in their countries as well.  Whether Trump wins, or Brexit happens, won't stop the overall movements around the world against countries' power structure.  It's going to be very interesting to watch what happens over the next few years.