Brexit

[Chairman Bill]

Here's a useful diagram - majority for Brexit? I think not

source: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-52-48-per-cent-voter-turnout-electoral-register-7399226

[jfirneno]

All the polls show figures that are within their margin of error. Margin of error doesn't mean 'rigged'. Look it up.

As for the claim that a majority of the people don't want to be in the EU, you have no evidence to support such a claim. A majority of those who voted, voted for Leave. That's all the referendum showed. Everyone who has turned 18 since June, didn't get included in that referendum, but we know that over 75% of younger voters had a preference for Remain. Quite a few old people have died since June, and a hard winter will see a good many more die too. They overwhelmingly voted for Brexit. Simple changing demographics move the figures inexorably in favour of Remain. It also doesn't account for those who didn't vote at all, nor those who've since changed their minds - they might now have an opinion on the whole thing, rather different from the one they had in June. A good number of people seem a tad pissed off that there won't be an extra £350 million going into the NHS, having been led to believe that would be an outcome from Brexit.

My evidence is that they voted for it. 

You're waiting for the people you don't like to die.  Well at least that's honest.  And I like your claim that the inexorable hand of destiny is moving the future in your direction.  That's very convincing.  But if that were the case then the socialists leading Britain from the late forties through the seventies would never have lost out to Maggie Thatcher in the eighties.  And wouldn't the Soviet Union have conquered the world because of, you know destiny?  After all they had the young people and believed in socialism and fairness and stuff like that.  The reality is the Brits have been voting in the Tories and even the Tory leaders aren't populist enough for the electorate.  Otherwise Cameron wouldn't have stepped down.

[Chairman Bill]

Wow, you're spouting some bollox, aren't you?

Your evidence is evidence that a specific number & percentage voted to leave the EU. That's it. That is all you can claim the referendum result is evidence of. Nothing more.  As for the claim that I'm waiting for people I don't like to die, like I said earlier, you really don't do logic, do you? I said nothing of the kind, yet you think you can reasonable infer that? Very odd. I also said nothing about the hand of destiny. I'm not given to supernaturalism, which is what such ideas boil down to. I simply indicated where the statistics appear to be moving.

[MarkJohnson]

Here's a useful diagram - majority for Brexit? I think not

source: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-52-48-per-cent-voter-turnout-electoral-register-7399226

And it's so disgusting to hear this small fraction translated again and again into the fake, mythic entity, "the will of the people", a concept so open to political manipulation and abuse.

[Rob C]

Rob,
....

Sorry to repeat myself as a protesting student, but my impression is that thanks to "negotiations" and treaties all the computer profits are made in Silicon Valley, all the financial profits are made in London and NY and everything else is made in China. And btw, student protest has a long and honorable tradition, since the children of power can speak truth to power without being mowed down


Edmund

Edmund what absolute rhetorical nonsense! Who are these 'children of power'? Harking back to the Parisian student moment, I always understood that plenty of student heads were cracked. Of course, whether all of those cracks were new or not is another matter entirely.

It's commonly held that unless you lean a little to the left as a young adult, then there may be something wrong with you, but that should you find yourself still listing to port at forty, then you know there's something wrong with you.

There was plenty wrong with me as a young adult, but thankfully there was nothing at all that I had to do to be fixed by the time I hit forty. Guess I was lucky!

I also think you might be confusing London with Dublin.

;-)

Rob

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I simply indicated where the statistics appear to be moving.

Ah, but you looked only at one side of that movement: that the passage of time will eliminate old people from the voting demographics. But the same passage of time causes some in the foolish youth to mature to adulthood, thus moving from socialists to realists. And the same passage of time will inevitably cause some not-so-old people to become old, and, according to you, even bigger racists, xhenophobes, and bigots.

You see, waiting for old people to die isn't such a brilliant strategy after all.

[Alan Klein]

The fear of what people voting directly would vote for in a democracy is the reason America has an Electoral College to vote for the President.  It's not a direct vote or referendum.   The Founders knew what they were doing when the wrote the Constitution.  We still have it which is why a person can become President with less than the majority vote. (President George W. Bush was the last one in 2000).   American Senators used to be elected similarly by the legislature in each State.  But the Constitution was changed a while back to allow direct election of Senators by the people.  Only Congressmen were originally voted in by popular vote.


People voting can be dangerous. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

The fear of what people voting directly would vote for in a democracy is the reason America has an Electoral College to vote for the President...

I'd venture to suggest the reason is actually known as...federalism.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

And it's so disgusting to hear this small fraction translated again and again into the fake, mythic entity, "the will of the people", a concept so open to political manipulation and abuse.

If the "disgusting" democracy is "so open to political manipulation and abuse," imagine what non-democratic concepts would be open to.

[Alan Klein]

I'd venture to suggest the reason is actually known as...federalism.

That's true to an extent.  But that was mainly the structural reason; that each State was Sovereign.  The Founders despite their desire for democracy, were afraid of the people, or at least some of them.  Slaves, non land owners, etc.  They also knew that people would always vote  for things they need for themselves.  I forget which Founder said it.  But his concern was that some day the people would vote the country into poverty so desirous each person is of their own welfare.  Frankly, I think we've reached that point.  Members of Congress refuse to cut the budget and have the Fed keep printing with ever increasing debt.  They know if they cut benefits to the people, or raise their taxes, they won't get voted in.  Term limits might bring them back to their senses.

[Chairman Bill]

Ah, but you looked only at one side of that movement: that the passage of time will eliminate old people from the voting demographics. But the same passage of time causes some in the foolish youth to mature to adulthood, thus moving from socialists to realists. And the same passage of time will inevitably cause some not-so-old people to become old, and, according to you, even bigger racists, xhenophobes, and bigots.

You see, waiting for old people to die isn't such a brilliant strategy after all.

What's this 'socialist to realist' nonsense? Do you define 'realist' as in opposition to socialism? Socialism is about liberty, equality & fairness. The opposite of that seems to me to be about privilege - maintaining & entrenching inequality & injustice. Is that what you call 'realist'? If so, you're welcome to it.

Also I never said getting old causes people to become racists, xhenophobes, or bigots. I said that the elderly are more likely to be in favour of leaving the EU, whereas younger people are more likely to be in favour of staying. That doesn't equate to there being an inexorable movement towards wanting to leave the EU as you age. Current correlation is not the same as causation.

[jfirneno]

Wow, you're spouting some bollox, aren't you?

Your evidence is evidence that a specific number & percentage voted to leave the EU. That's it. That is all you can claim the referendum result is evidence of. Nothing more.  As for the claim that I'm waiting for people I don't like to die, like I said earlier, you really don't do logic, do you? I said nothing of the kind, yet you think you can reasonable infer that? Very odd. I also said nothing about the hand of destiny. I'm not given to supernaturalism, which is what such ideas boil down to. I simply indicated where the statistics appear to be moving.

I'm just going by your words, which are all that exist on the internet.  And my original point is reinforced with your latest pie chart of fascinating information to prove that when people vote they aren't to be followed.  As for someone else's argument that representative government is better than democracy, well the referendum was put forth by the Prime Minister to gauge the will of the people and help him to show what it was.  The fact that he didn't like the result shows that he had no ulterior motive in calling for it.  He was hoping for a Remain win because it was more in line with his globalist sympathies.  But at least he was honest enough to step aside and let the people's will be done.  If only others were as scrupulous.

[Rob C]

That's true to an extent.  But that was mainly the structural reason; that each State was Sovereign.  The Founders despite their desire for democracy, were afraid of the people, or at least some of them.  Slaves, non land owners, etc.  They also knew that people would always vote  for things they need for themselves.  I forget which Founder said it.  But his concern was that some day the people would vote the country into poverty so desirous each person is of their own welfare. Frankly, I think we've reached that point.  Members of Congress refuse to cut the budget and have the Fed keep printing with ever increasing debt.  They know if they cut benefits to the people, or raise their taxes, they won't get voted in.  Term limits might bring them back to their senses.

That's Britain today: too much milk of human kindness paid for by somebody else. However, reasoned self-interest is no crazy thing.

The last Chancellor did his best to cut defecits and was doing quite well, then this lighty-thrown idea about giving the chance for a referendum turned the world on its head. Now, those who were so proud of the advancing defecit reduction have swung 180 degrees and claim pride in that, too. As some sage wrote: you couldn't make it up, not if you wanted to be taken seriously.

No wonder some have ceased voting.

Rob

[MarkJohnson]

If the "disgusting" democracy is "so open to political manipulation and abuse," imagine what non-democratic concepts would be open to.

Hi Slobodan - I didn't state or imply 'democracy' is 'disgusting', just that to say less than half of the eligible voting population voting 'leave', under a hail of misinformation and lies, on an issue that was, as many believe, inappropriately put to a referendum process in the first place because of its complexity and ramifications, is not to speak truthfully of 'the will of the people'. I also said that 'the will of the people' can be a misused concept, with all sorts of people presuming to understand and express this, for their own various purposes.   

[Alan Klein]

Hi Slobodan - I didn't state or imply 'democracy' is 'disgusting', just that to say less than half of the eligible voting population voting 'leave', under a hail of misinformation and lies, on an issue that was, as many believe, inappropriately put to a referendum process in the first place because of its complexity and ramifications, is not to speak truthfully of 'the will of the people'. I also said that 'the will of the people' can be a misused concept, with all sorts of people presuming to understand and express this, for their own various purposes.   

Sounds like what's happening here in America during the run up to the Presidential election.  You're not alone.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Hi Slobodan - I didn't state or imply 'democracy' is 'disgusting', just that to say less than half of the eligible voting population voting ...

Which is commonly understood and practiced as democracy.

[MarkJohnson]

Which is commonly understood and practiced as democracy.

....?  Well, it's great that not "everybody thinks the same" here!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Socialism is about liberty, equality & fairness...

Oh, dear Lord!

Perhaps that's how it starts: as a mass idealistic delusion. Ask the people of the Soviet block how it ends. They were free to stay, equal in poverty and with a fair chance of ending up in the Gulag.

Ain't it funny how people who never actually experienced socialism sing praises to it?

[Alan Klein]

I'm still not clear why so many fear Brexit.  After all, America, China, and Japan aren't members.  Yet they do an awful lot of business with Europe and trade flows both ways.  Britain would just join these three countries which doesn't seem such a bad position to be in.  Plus they will have their own political power to decide their future without the interference of outsiders.  Frankly, I think Europe's experiment with Socialism has made too many people fearful of individualism, national as well as personal.  They think the group is the answer to everything.  Sometimes you have to stand on your own two feet. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

....?  Well, it's great that not "everybody thinks the same" here!

Mark, would it be fair to infer that you are lamenting low voter turnout in democracies?

Coming from a socialist country, I remember how proud my father was on elections days. Putting on his Sunday best, with a carnation in his lapel, beaming with pride... for voting in a single-party elections. Worth noting that the largest voter turnouts used to happen in socialist, one-party, countries and dictatorships. Saddam Hussein used to have almost 100% of both, voter turnout and votes for him.

I believe that in a free country, people should be free to vote or not vote. Just as with religion: this religion, that religion, or no religion. If you (rhetorical you) do not bother to vote, then you do not care either way, and can't later complain that the minority decided for you.

Also worth noting that in representative democracies, representatives are elected with an even lower turnout than in major elections, e.g., presidential or referendums.