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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 342002 times)

stamper

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #220 on: June 28, 2016, 05:59:40 am »

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #221 on: June 28, 2016, 06:01:26 am »

I don't understand the point you're making Justin. Are you suggesting that I'm making a positive spin on a bad situation? I'm not sure if you visit the West Midlands for business but there are some really dynamic companies there - for example there's a company who make the locks for filing cabinets (and have done so for at least 100 years) and they are cheaper and better than China. They can see off all competition because they have a skilled workforce in a modern factory. Travel 8 miles or less and you'll get to a god awful town centre which is as that article describes made up of people who, in my opinion, are not grasping the opportunities that are there because it's change.

Then again I have probably misunderstood your point :)

This view is hardly anything new or original and when peeled back can often be seen as a cop out for people not wanting to take responsibility for society as a whole.

Let's put it another way, you are saying that people are not taking responsibility for themselves and reskilling or being entrepreneurial or whatever. Let's move up the scale somewhat and ask if it is that easy then why are you not rushing out to reskill or start a new wonder business to improve your lot? Why is it always others who are being idle? In Ireland we call this attitude 'hurling from the ditch'.
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drmike

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #222 on: June 28, 2016, 06:10:06 am »

This view is hardly anything new or original and when peeled back can often be seen as a cop out for people not wanting to take responsibility for society as a whole.

Let's put it another way, you are saying that people are not taking responsibility for themselves and reskilling or being entrepreneurial or whatever. Let's move up the scale somewhat and ask if it is that easy then why are you not rushing out to reskill or start a new wonder business to improve your lot? Why is it always others who are being idle? In Ireland we call this attitude 'hurling from the ditch'.

I did reskill when I wanted to improve my lot, not that it has anything to do with it as my industry hadn't collapsed and gone away.

I'm still not sure what your point is. These guys may be wonderful workers in industries that no longer employ anyone as they all went bust or to China but how does that help them? They maybe want a job that doesn't exist any more, I'd say reskilling sounds pretty good to me. And no it's not easy I understand that. But as needs must.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #223 on: June 28, 2016, 06:23:15 am »

I did reskill when I wanted to improve my lot, not that it has anything to do with it as my industry hadn't collapsed and gone away.

I'm still not sure what your point is. These guys may be wonderful workers in industries that no longer employ anyone as they all went bust or to China but how does that help them? They maybe want a job that doesn't exist any more, I'd say reskilling sounds pretty good to me. And no it's not easy I understand that. But as needs must.

We can spend all day arguing so what I suggest you do is pop down to your nearest deserted town centre, set up you stall in the high street and persuade those who are not grasping opportunities to do so. It might be handy if if you have a list of such opportunities to show them

Do let us know how you get on.
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drmike

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #224 on: June 28, 2016, 06:26:11 am »

We can spend all day arguing so what I suggest you do is pop down to your nearest deserted town centre, set up you stall in the high street and persuade those who are not grasping opportunities to do so. It might be handy if if you have a list of such opportunities to show them

Do let us know how you get on.

I'm not sure what I have done for such a potentially offensive reply - but I apologise for whatever it is I did.

Mike
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #225 on: June 28, 2016, 06:27:36 am »

I did reskill when I wanted to improve my lot, not that it has anything to do with it as my industry hadn't collapsed and gone away.

I'm still not sure what your point is. These guys may be wonderful workers in industries that no longer employ anyone as they all went bust or to China but how does that help them? They maybe want a job that doesn't exist any more, I'd say reskilling sounds pretty good to me. And no it's not easy I understand that. But as needs must.

There often isn't point, just dogma.

Albert Watson has but one working eye - from birth - but boy, has he been able to see with it!

;-)

Rob

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #226 on: June 28, 2016, 06:28:41 am »

I'm not sure what I have done for such a potentially offensive reply - but I apologise for whatever it is I did.

Mike

It's not offensive at all. You want people to grasp opportunities that you believe abound the place, fair enough, but you need to go and talk to such people rather than us.

Where is the offence in that?
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #227 on: June 28, 2016, 06:30:45 am »

There often isn't point, just dogma.

Albert Watson has but one working eye - from birth - but boy, has he been able to see with it!

;-)

Rob

Sigh...

Poor old Rob C, reduced to snide remarks from the sidelines.
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Zorki5

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #228 on: June 28, 2016, 07:19:39 am »

if the British people had trouble understanding what was going on then how do outsiders understand?

Well, I fail to see what's so surprising about outsiders being able to see what's up with the UK.

As to me: in 2004, I sold my company to a UK one, and then became head of their 90-strong branch office in Moscow, and a shareholder. Been to UK many times, and do happen to know a thing or two about how business is done over there.

Had read a lot on UK history; Churchill's The Second World War and Asimov's The Shaping of England come to mind... As to the latter: how many Brits do realize that the foundation of their future greatness had been laid out at the time of their greatest weakness if not misery? I bet at UK schools they focus on Waterloo and similar cr@p.

I'd say sometimes it takes an outsider's look to see what's really going on...
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JV

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #229 on: June 28, 2016, 07:43:49 am »

From CNN:

It's not often that one decision can cripple your own economy, damage global investor confidence, imperil one of the most successful alliances in modern history, foster the rise of ultra-nationalists, precipitate the possible breakup of your own country, deeply divide your own party and cause a great schism between voters of every ideological stripe, but this is one of them.

Well done, David Cameron.
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stamper

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #230 on: June 28, 2016, 07:48:18 am »

Well, I fail to see what's so surprising about outsiders being able to see what's up with the UK.

As to me: in 2004, I sold my company to a UK one, and then became head of their 90-strong branch office in Moscow, and a shareholder. Been to UK many times, and do happen to know a thing or two about how business is done over there.

Had read a lot on UK history; Churchill's The Second World War and Asimov's The Shaping of England come to mind... As to the latter: how many Brits do realize that the foundation of their future greatness had been laid out at the time of their greatest weakness if not misery? I bet at UK schools they focus on Waterloo and similar cr@p.

I'd say sometimes it takes an outsider's look to see what's really going on...

You probably won't know about the underlying problem about racism? Ukip ran a campaign that was accused of racism. A lot of people were influenced by it and voted to leave because they thought it would stop immigrants coming in. Your many visits to the UK might now be at an end? This will be difficult for outsiders to fathom...racism in the UK.

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #231 on: June 28, 2016, 08:05:23 am »

Well, I fail to see what's so surprising about outsiders being able to see what's up with the UK.

As to me: in 2004, I sold my company to a UK one, and then became head of their 90-strong branch office in Moscow, and a shareholder. Been to UK many times, and do happen to know a thing or two about how business is done over there.

Had read a lot on UK history; Churchill's The Second World War and Asimov's The Shaping of England come to mind... As to the latter: how many Brits do realize that the foundation of their future greatness had been laid out at the time of their greatest weakness if not misery? I bet at UK schools they focus on Waterloo and similar cr@p.

I'd say sometimes it takes an outsider's look to see what's really going on...

There is a lot to be said for that, I learnt more about the history of Britain once I'd left the place than I ever did while living there. Stepping outside the box you are brought up in can certainly readjust how you view both yourself and the society that shaped you, just so long as you adopt an open mind and are prepared to slaughter a few sacred cows that you were instructed to absolutely believe in. One of my favourite, or maybe that should be least favourite, examples is the idea that British industry was built on natural talent and you didn't need any of this fancy foreign education nonsense to succeed. It worked for a while and then we lost the momentum at the end of the 19th century. Meanwhile over in Germany people like Carl Von Linde, Rudolf Diesel and Karl Benz were busy studying at technical schools where science and technology were taught as opposed to Homer and Plato, and we all know how that worked out.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 08:13:12 am by Justinr »
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #232 on: June 28, 2016, 09:54:52 am »

I am sure that after a few months, things will revert to business as usual. In the meantime, rating agencies will downgrade the UK's debt (done already), as if all of a sudden it is no longer one of the largest and strongest market place in the world. Almost like when a new camera is introduced, the older camera becomes crap:)

Mr. Cameron played and lost, all for the sake of appeasing the hard line in his party, and for winning the 2015 elections. What is new?

On this side of the channel, the EU commission is demanding that the UK exits quickly, behaving like a child to whom a toy was stolen... they are also discussing whether or not sanctions should be applied to Portugal for a slight deviation of deficit (3.2% vs. 3%). As if there are no more important issues at the moment, like the election results in Spain, where Mr. Rajoy won (again...), PSOE is still second, and the Podemos hippies are still having fun.

I wish the EU commission would have been this active when a dictator from a right wing party won the elections in Hungary...

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #233 on: June 28, 2016, 10:29:37 am »

...You probably won't know about the underlying problem about racism? Ukip ran a campaign that was accused of racism... Your many visits to the UK might now be at an end? ...

Dear Lord!

Why would his (or mine) visits to the UK end??? Being against unchecked or illegal immigration doesn't translate into being against tourism, for business or pleasure.

The world existed before the EU, some of us traveled, lived, worked, married, etc. in 30+ countries on three continents, and all that with a red passport, requiring visas everywhere.

The left is so devoid of fresh ideas that the only tool left in its toolbox is the accusation of racism and bigotry. When racism is your only argument, you already lost (the argument).

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #234 on: June 28, 2016, 10:35:23 am »

I am sure that after a few months, things will revert to business as usual. In the meantime, rating agencies will downgrade the UK's debt (done already), as if all of a sudden it is no longer one of the largest and strongest market place in the world. Almost like when a new camera is introduced, the older camera becomes crap:)

Mr. Cameron played and lost, all for the sake of appeasing the hard line in his party, and for winning the 2015 elections. What is new?

On this side of the channel, the EU commission is demanding that the UK exits quickly, behaving like a child to whom a toy was stolen... they are also discussing whether or not sanctions should be applied to Portugal for a slight deviation of deficit (3.2% vs. 3%). As if there are no more important issues at the moment, like the election results in Spain, where Mr. Rajoy won (again...), PSOE is still second, and the Podemos hippies are still having fun.

I wish the EU commission would have been this active when a dictator from a right wing party won the elections in Hungary...

The touble is, though 'old' cameras might function just as well - if not even better than some replacements - they become worthless on the market. It's very much about perception, just like all of showbiz.

Spain isn't in the same ballgame. The problems facing Spain are quite different, thought they do face the now almost eternal situation of different prov¡nces wanting independence. Catalonia has the advantage of beng a modern, industrial land, producer of great wines, a region long-accustomed to hard work and progress; it also shares a lot of ties through history with the southern French, some of whom also crave old alliances... That it pays a lot of money into the wider national economy also sits as a bit of a stone in the shoe. As with Italy, the current concepts of nationhood are relatively new and not all that strong within the historical psyche.

Left or right politics - Spain's greater argument seems to be based around corruption, of which all of them have shining accusations if not proof - yet. Even Royalty isn't immune. Whichever party in power, the only hope is that none will allow dogma to destroy what already exists. That's oh so easy to do, as we currently discuss.

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #235 on: June 28, 2016, 10:50:03 am »

Yesterday the great English football team lost from Iceland...
Iceland was simply better.

England vs. Iceland:

https://mobile.twitter.com/vvvili/status/747515166531665921/video/1

 ;D

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #236 on: June 28, 2016, 11:06:18 am »

Dear Lord!

Why would his (or mine) visits to the UK end??? Being against unchecked or illegal immigration doesn't translate into being against tourism, for business or pleasure.

The world existed before the EU, some of us traveled, lived, worked, married, etc. in 30+ countries on three continents, and all that with a red passport, requiring visas everywhere.

The left is so devoid of fresh ideas that the only tool left in its toolbox is the accusation of racism and bigotry. When racism is your only argument, you already lost (the argument).


Quite, but perhaps that's the hope some Brexiters really held: nobody gets into our little fortress.

The huge problem is insularity, the physical kind, as shared with the Med islands. It's not cheap, and neither is it easy to move seamlessly from country to country. You have to face the nuisance of booking, ferries, much additional expense, every single thing you can imagine comes between you and moving freely across borders in your car or even on a bloody train! I intentionally remove the air from that list, because when you fly to a resort or a capital, you see nothing but the public face of tourism, just another decorated fib, themed to suit the imagination of the visitor.

I discovered more about France just by criss-crossing it so often en route to Scotland that, in the end, I didn't even really need maps other than to take little touring detours around wherever we stopped over. I have relatives who have only been to Paris and Monaco (I know it's not France); they think France and the French are snotty, greedy and rude. I ask them what they'd expect to find in London or Edinburgh... In essence they know nothing about the wider populace - just head waiters. I don't pretend to know a lot more either, just that I know enough to disregard the stereotyping.

The Med islands are little different: the Balearics hate the Madrid people above all else; Corsica isn't exactly Paris-centric iin sympathies; Sicily - well, what can anyone say about that!

"The left is so devoid of fresh ideas that the only tool left in its toolbox is the accusation of racism and bigotry. When racism is your only argument, you already lost (the argument)."

Thing is, both left and right share that trait. A vast proportion of the current Conservative cabinet shares the same bigotted outlook; I think that for Britain it's entirely pan-political, though some hide it better.

As almost everthing else that's rooted in mindset, I put it down to this cursed island mentality I've just mentioned. Shit - just think about the Scottish islands: folks from there are no more like 'typical' Glaswegians than you. (Whatever a typical Glaswegian turns out to be!)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:13:35 am by Rob C »
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RSL

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #237 on: June 28, 2016, 11:13:02 am »

Dear Lord!

Why would his (or mine) visits to the UK end??? Being against unchecked or illegal immigration doesn't translate into being against tourism, for business or pleasure.

The world existed before the EU, some of us traveled, lived, worked, married, etc. in 30+ countries on three continents, and all that with a red passport, requiring visas everywhere.

The left is so devoid of fresh ideas that the only tool left in its toolbox is the accusation of racism and bigotry. When racism is your only argument, you already lost (the argument).

It's no use Slobodan. The left needs "safe space" and "trigger warnings" to survive.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #238 on: June 28, 2016, 11:15:53 am »

It's no use Slobodan. The left needs "safe space" and "trigger warnings" to survive.

And as with Communism and some religions, it flourishes only amidst poverty and ignorance. Ain't no accident: it's just mind meds...

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #239 on: June 28, 2016, 11:28:00 am »

Left or right politics - Spain's greater argument seems to be based around corruption, of which all of them have shining accusations if not proof - yet. Even Royalty isn't immune. Whichever party in power, the only hope is that none will allow dogma to destroy what already exists. That's oh so easy to do, as we currently discuss.

Rob

Similar corruption as in Portugal. Just yesterday the former governor of Portugal's Central Bank said that he had no "indications" that one of the large banks was in trouble. Suffice it to say that in the last say 5 years, almost all the Portuguese banks have gone (and are still going) through major problems: some have been the subject of bad and corrupt management, others have just been poorly managed, with the "amen" of whichever party or coalition was in power.

The end result is about the same: the losses of the banks are "nationalized", amounting to many thousands of millions of Euros that go into the public deficit. Only in 2011, the troika offered 12 thousand million Euros to recapitalize the bank system; all the major bankers said the money was not necessary, that the banks were healthy, and so on and so forth.

The above-mentioned former governor of Portugal's Central bank is now vice-governor of the European Central bank. He must be highly competent...
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