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Author Topic: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D  (Read 43140 times)

synn

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2016, 11:59:21 am »

Yeah, we've now flooded this place with inane comments. I mean, I do go pray at the porcelain temple several times a day, but at least my offerings there get flushed away - here they stare me in the face whenever I come back; autoerase might be a good idea for some threads.

 ;D

Edmund

Hard to ignore them when you're authoring half of them, innit Edmund?
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Ken R

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2016, 01:14:57 pm »

Hard to ignore them when you're authoring half of them, innit Edmund?

I think im gonna delete my account. Been a member since 2005. A handful of prolific posters have basically ruined de MF forum here for me at least. I guess it will be one less photographer in this forum that actually lives off photography and actually owns and uses Medium Format Digital gear.

Synn I appreciate that you always try to balance discussions out but the techy, grumpy, never satisfied know it all gang is just too much. They can have this forum to argue among themselves which most of the time is exactly what ends up happening anyway. ta ta!
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BobShaw

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2016, 06:52:44 pm »

I think im gonna delete my account. Been a member since 2005. A handful of prolific posters have basically ruined de MF forum here for me at least. I guess it will be one less photographer in this forum that actually lives off photography and actually owns and uses Medium Format Digital gear.
Synn I appreciate that you always try to balance discussions out but the techy, grumpy, never satisfied know it all gang is just too much. They can have this forum to argue among themselves which most of the time is exactly what ends up happening anyway. ta ta!
It would be unfortunate to see you go but I completely understand your sentiment. Comments along the lines of "why doesn't this motorcycle have 4 wheels" are becoming the norm. There should be a rule that if you don't own or use or least have seen something vaguely similar you can't comment.
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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2016, 08:16:50 pm »

It would be unfortunate to see you go but I completely understand your sentiment. Comments along the lines of "why doesn't this motorcycle have 4 wheels" are becoming the norm. There should be a rule that if you don't own or use or least have seen something vaguely similar you can't comment.

If looking away is too hard, there is an ignore tool here. I am ignoring Synn, and although I feel he is entitled to voice his opinions I am not reading them. One can also take a vacation from the whole yackety yack forum thing - in fact I suspect that when one of us disappears for a while it is often not out of disgust but because that person is actually away getting something done for a few months.

And BTW, one of my recent points is that none of us claims to have used an X1D extensively -although some have ordered one-  and we're all talking about it. This whole thread's existence is weird in a way.

I would vote for a "real hard experience" subforum where we talk about a given real situation and what we did/do there. But i think it already exists as Pro Business.

Last not least, let's look at the reality of the issues. Of the top 10 threads just now, only number 2 and 9 got polluted, and those were pretty ridiculous to start with.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 11:41:17 pm by eronald »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2016, 07:21:14 am »

Are you an Octave user?

Cheers,
Bernard
No, MATLAB.

I tried Octave many years ago, and did not like it.

For a free/open source alternative, how about Python/Numpy?

-h
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BJL

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detour: abandoning MATLAB, skipping Octave, onto Scientific Python
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2016, 07:49:11 am »

No, MATLAB.

I tried Octave many years ago, and did not like it.

For a free/open source alternative, how about Python/Numpy?

-h
That's my take too: a few years ago I abandoned MATLAB for the modern open source alternative of "Scientific Python": Python plus NumPy plus Matplotlib plus SciPy, all usable in the rather Matlab-like GUI of Spyder if you want. Better graphics tools and a far better, more modern mainstream core language design, along with being free, and far more support coming from the younger generation of computational scientists.
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NickT

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2016, 02:48:37 am »

https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/

Thanks for sharing Nick.

Although the samples are actually not available at full resolution on Flickr, I am pretty impressed by the image quality so far.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: detour: abandoning MATLAB, skipping Octave, onto Scientific Python
« Reply #108 on: July 06, 2016, 07:57:52 am »

That's my take too: a few years ago I abandoned MATLAB for the modern open source alternative of "Scientific Python": Python plus NumPy plus Matplotlib plus SciPy, all usable in the rather Matlab-like GUI of Spyder if you want. Better graphics tools and a far better, more modern mainstream core language design, along with being free, and far more support coming from the younger generation of computational scientists.

I think both can coexist. And in fact I have used both - there are days when I want scrambled eggs for breakfast, other days I prefer boiled ones.

I think Matlab/Octave is more usable for very small code fragments. But for an engineer there tend to be a lot of those :) I use iPython/Jupyter for anything larger than 10 lines. BTW, Octave has a nice GUI interface these days.

There is a tool called SWIG to integrate C code with Python - you might benefit from it:
http://www.swig.org/tutorial.html

Edmund
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BJL

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for AF lenses, could good focus-by-wire be better for manual focusing?
« Reply #109 on: July 06, 2016, 09:37:59 am »

On the other hand, I would suggest that we need to check out how things work. Modern AF-lenses are not built for manual focus, anyway.
Good point.  Even if the best manual focus experience come with the helicoids in lenses designed exclusively for manual focusing, it might be that under the compromises of supporting both AF and MF, the best solution will be focus-by-wire, at least once it is responsive enough.  For one thing, FBW allows options like different "gearing ratios" between focus movement and focus ring rotation:
- a high ratio for big, quick shifts in focus, requiring only about a half turn from minimum to infinity, and
- a lower ratio for small, slow, careful focus adjustments.
Some Olympus lenses try to do this, shifting gearing ratios depending on whether the focus ring is rotated quickly or slowly.

The helicoids in mechanically coupled manual focus systems on AF lenses generally have a rather high gearing ratio, favoring speed over accuracy, which is one reason that some photographers find them inferior to pure manual focus lenses for precise manual focusing.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:53:03 am by BJL »
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eronald

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Re: for AF lenses, could good focus-by-wire be better for manual focusing?
« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2016, 09:47:56 am »

Good point.  Even if the best manual focus experience come with lenses designed exclusively for manual focusing, it might be that under the compromises of supporting both AF and MF, the best solution will be focus-by-wire, at least once it is responsive enough.  For one thing, FBW allows options like different ratios between focus movement and focus ring rotation:
- a high ratio for big, quick shifts in focus, requiring only about a half turn from minimum to infinity, and
- a lower ratio for small, slow, careful focus adjustments.
Some Olympus lenses try to do this, shifting ratios depending on whether the focus ring is rotated quickly or slowly.

Most mechanically coupled manual focus systems on AF lenses have a rather high ratio, which is one reason that some photographers find them inferior to pure MF lenses for precise manual focusing.

YES! The idea of having variable ratios is nice.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: for AF lenses, could good focus-by-wire be better for manual focusing?
« Reply #111 on: July 06, 2016, 09:50:20 am »

YES! The idea of having variable ratios is nice.

Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Re: for AF lenses, could good focus-by-wire be better for manual focusing?
« Reply #112 on: July 06, 2016, 10:01:24 am »

Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.

Cheers,
Bernard
Indeed: hence the word "good" in my subject line, and my future tense phrasing that "the best solution will be focus-by-wire".  Focus-by-wire, like EVFs, still needs work to match the best that traditional approach can offer, but I am optimistic that in both cases, there is room for substantial further progress, whereas the far more mature traditional alternatives are probably close to their natural limits.
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eronald

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Re: for AF lenses, could good focus-by-wire be better for manual focusing?
« Reply #113 on: July 06, 2016, 10:21:59 am »

Yes, but it assumes that the electric drive of the focus can work in small enough increments that critical focus can be achieved.

Cheers,
Bernard

The question is not only "can" but "is allowed to". My 85/1.2 cannot focus well close to infinity ie around 15-20m. even though it is hugely sharp. I tested a Hassy with a fast portrait lens 100mm, and saw exactly the same issues. You can check your favorite short tele at night time with the streetlamps.

Edmund
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BJL

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I like advance announcements: as soon as near-final prototypes are ready
« Reply #114 on: July 06, 2016, 10:22:49 am »

Well, we have live demo and trial from 4 to the 9 in the south of France. Then commercials travel France with the units to go to the interested.
If the X1D is that far along in development, I can see no benefit to customers for Hasselblad to withhold information about it; it is probably well beyond the stage where the announcement could become vaporware, due to subsequent substantial delays or even cancellation of the product.

Given that a product will be ready for release at a certain date, the difference between:
- announcing some months in advance of release (maybe with advanced prototypes available for demos) and
- having it available for sale very quickly after announcement
is not that the latter option gets you the product earlier; it is that the former gets you information about it earlier.  The latter option is the one that can leave people frustrated by having bought an item just days or weeks before a better alternative comes to market. More so if it competes closely with current products from the same company, which is then borderline "insider trading" by selling you an item that it knows will very soon be devalued by the arrival of the unannounced new product.

Anyway, the X1D announcement follows the usual pattern: it is sufficiently different from the maker's current offerings (and a bit closer to some competitors' products) that Hasselblad probably sees more to gain by encouraging people to wait on purchasing a competing product than it might lose by discouraging people from buying one of its own current products in the meantime.
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eronald

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The issues with preannouncements are complex, and were at the center of the IBM antitrust suits.

Here Hassy are preannouncing in the sense that they intend to deliver the product but cannot yet supply it, and are announcing ahead of supply because they are afraid that a competitor -Fuji or possibly Sony- will address their customers. It could be argued that Fuji would have gained by making an immediate announcement of their own and unveiling their prototypes; on the other hand, Fuji may wait for Hasselblad to sell at current prices to the first customers and then sandbag them by forcing them to lock in a very high pricepoint that will then be percieved as irrealistic when the Fuji product appears, and also revising their product specs to remedy an apparent deficiencies when compared with Hasselblad.

In the video space a price war has broken out between Sony and Canon,customers are now aware that the actual product pricing has just about nothing to do with production costs or with camera performance.

Edmund

If the X1D is that far along in development, I can see no benefit to customers for Hasselblad to withhold information about it; it is probably well beyond the stage where the announcement could become vaporware, due to subsequent substantial delays or even cancellation of the product.

Given that a product will be ready for release at a certain date, the difference between:
- announcing some months in advance of release (maybe with advanced prototypes available for demos) and
- having it available for sale very quickly after announcement
is not that the latter option gets you the product earlier; it is that the former gets you information about it earlier.  The latter option is the one that can leave people frustrated by having bought an item just days or weeks before a better alternative comes to market. More so if it competes closely with current products from the same company, which is then borderline "insider trading" by selling you an item that it knows will very soon be devalued by the arrival of the unannounced new product.

Anyway, the X1D announcement follows the usual pattern: it is sufficiently different from the maker's current offerings (and a bit closer to some competitors' products) that Hasselblad probably sees more to gain by encouraging people to wait on purchasing a competing product than it might lose by discouraging people from buying one of its own current products in the meantime.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 10:41:52 am by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #116 on: July 06, 2016, 10:39:03 am »

I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?

Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 10:42:17 am by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #117 on: July 06, 2016, 10:44:15 am »

I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?

Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't think the X1D is an offender, but 5 months in the future with actual deliveries constrained starts to become a joke - or a fashion industry move. Leica announcements ...

Edmund
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BJL

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The issues with preannouncements are complex, and were at the center of the IBM antitrust suits.
I specifically tried to avoid comparison to cases like the notorious IBM system/360 model 91 announcement, where the product is at best on the drawing board and not delivered until years later if at all.

To repeat, what I am in favor of is announcing a product by the time there are prototypes working well enough to show to reviewers, and to provide sample images.

Your "five months is too long" seems reasonable, allowing exceptions due to unforeseeable circumstances.  There was a case where Xerox was punished by an FTC order to not announce more than three months in advance.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 01:30:51 pm by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #119 on: July 06, 2016, 03:03:25 pm »

Hi,

I had a very long wait for A7rII…

It may seem that there may be a mirrorless device coming soon from Fuji, and I guess it may be the case that Hasselblad wanted to be first. That was actually also the case with the 50 MP CMOS back. Hasselblad announced it well before Phase One but Phase was the first to market.

In a sense, I feel it is a pity that Hasselblad did not cooperate with Fuji on this one. Both the Hasselblad H-series and the X-Pan were great success. Now we may see Hasselblad competing with Fuji and it may be also with Sony.

Best regards
Erik

I don't have the feeling that the time gap btwn annoucement and planned availabiliy of the X1D is particulary long, is it?

Canon had cases where it took 5 months (the 5Ds comes to mind), Nikon wasn't that much better with the D500 (around 3 months).

Cheers,
Bernard
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