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Author Topic: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase  (Read 34555 times)

brandon

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2016, 04:48:40 pm »


It doesn’t have to be this way, the RGB tone curve is legacy from the 1990s when its low computational cost was one of the reasons to use it. It can also be seen as a nostalgic connection to film photography. In the film days the film had to produce the subjective look too, so exaggerated contrast and saturation were desirable properties. This thinking has been kept in most raw converters today despite that we have all possibilities to start from a neutral look and design our own on top rather than relying on bundled looks. The RGB tone curve produces a saturated look that many like to have in their end result, but as said it still doesn’t work well for profiles that aren’t specifically adapted for it.


[/quote]
Thanks this extract is helpful
Regards
Brandon
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2016, 05:03:46 pm »

Quote
... and since you didn't white balance the image (concrete sidewalks aren't greenish yellow in bright sunlight) you've actually compounded the appearance of over saturated greens with the added contrast.

Wrong again. The concrete was not pure grey*, and the White-balancing was exactly the same as for the white of the clouds. Had I color-balanced on the concrete, then the clouds would have been too blue.

That's not what I'm seeing. How do you explain the two hues of concrete even the Lab numbers bare out in the attached screengrab?

That's a hue shift. Was that created by adding contrast or did you not set the WB according to the numbers because I'm sure you don't rely on your eyesight to judge color.

The A/B demo of the glass/brick building really shows what this saturation/contrast detachment looks like. I see your point, now.

But do you really think that looks good? Or do you like to make images that follow colorimetrically accurate to scene renderings?

Those images look very accurate to reality, but a boring ashen colored reality. They remind me of technical images used in instruction manuals from NASA or the images hung on the inside walls of my Dad's oilfield supervisor trailer promoting new drill bit design and frac machinery.

I would not want to make a print of those colors.
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Pictus

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2016, 07:09:39 pm »

I use both ACR/C1 and do prefer the contrast behavior in C1 v9.
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BAB

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2016, 08:08:14 pm »

I not sure why but if in Phocus you increase the Clarity it has a much different effect than LR better to my taste it won't halo on you even at 100%!

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2016, 08:20:09 pm »

The A/B demo of the glass/brick building really shows what this saturation/contrast detachment looks like. I see your point, now.

But do you really think that looks good? Or do you like to make images that follow colorimetrically accurate to scene renderings?

Tim, that is actually a good question for the topic of this thread. Let me put it this way: Almost all images we produce (unless they are reproductions, converted with a specially made linear camera profile) are not colorimetrically accurate. On top of that nobody stops us from adding our own creative touch, but at least we can start from a relatively predictable starting point.

That makes it easier to see the differences. If I add contrast, or reduce it, because the subject benefits from that, I won't have to ask myself how much of the Saturation and resulting color I see is due to the subject and ambient lighting, and how much was from the contrast change. What I see is what came from the subject and lighting, and if I do not like it, I can change it knowing that if I later decide to modify contrast again, I won't have to worry about the saturation and color all over again, because it will not be significantly affected. IOW, it's a much more robust way of editing, more predictable.

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I would not want to make a print of those colors.

No problem, you don't have to. Again, besides personal preferences and subjects, there are countless way that images can be rendered and they may look all fine in their own special way. The images that I posted were more a demonstration of the effect of Contrast changes. Surprising to some, it can change just that, Contrast, and still give an impression that Saturation was affected, which it hardly did.

But the thread is more about the distraction in the editing process, that Saturation changes when we actually wanted to change something else, Contrast.

Without that distraction, it's not too difficult to further tweak the image in a very predictable way. Some images are hard enough to get right, because nature already challenges our Camera response enough, like with the attached eagle-owl that has such saturated irises already that the captured blue channel is zero, or the already very saturated reds of the wild-water rafters. Any change I make to adjust the Contrast, will leave that Saturation mostly untouched.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 03:09:02 am by BartvanderWolf »
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2016, 09:24:11 pm »

But the thread is more about the distraction in the editing process, that Saturation changes when we actually wanted to change something else, Contrast.
We (all) do? When someone speaks for everyone: warning Will Robinson, danger!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2016, 03:36:47 am »

We (all) do? When someone speaks for everyone: warning Will Robinson, danger!

Simple question Andrew,

If you change Contrast with the Contrast control, what is it in the image that you want to change?

And if you want to adjust the Saturation in an image, wouldn't it be logical to use the Saturation control for that? Just wondering, because you make it sound as if you don't want the controls to do what they should do, which puzzles me.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2016, 03:52:05 am »

I not sure why but if in Phocus you increase the Clarity it has a much different effect than LR better to my taste it won't halo on you even at 100%!

Hi,

Clarity can be implemented in various ways between applications. Unfortunately some produce halos, and some don't. How they let Clarity deal with Saturation could also depend on how they handle Contrast. So I'd suggest to use whichever application does best without unwanted side effects.

Cheers,
Bart
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2016, 06:12:49 am »

Hi Bart, just wanted to say a huge thank you for your patience and level-headedness in explaining in great detail this issue of chroma shifting with contrast/RGB curves adjustments. Personally I've long known this behaviour with ACR/LR curves and it has irked me more than helped me. Often I can't completely/perfectly reverse the non-uniform saturation increase across the tone scale with the saturation or vibrancy sliders or even the HSL sliders, and even if I could, it's an annoying waste of time. In Photoshop of course we have the Luminosity Blend Mode which I prefer to use almost always with a RGB curves adjustment. These days I prefer Raw Therapee over Lightroom for all my raw image processing, which has several ways to adjust the tonality of an image without resulting in exaggerated chroma shifts. I'm glad about that. It's really jarring to read your civil and logical comments against some of the other more dismissive ones. Bart, you definitely have complete 'traction' with me.

Cheers,
Samuel
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2016, 07:15:58 am »

Hi Bart, just wanted to say a huge thank you for your patience and level-headedness in explaining in great detail this issue of chroma shifting with contrast/RGB curves adjustments. Personally I've long known this behaviour with ACR/LR curves and it has irked me more than helped me. Often I can't completely/perfectly reverse the non-uniform saturation increase across the tone scale with the saturation or vibrancy sliders or even the HSL sliders, and even if I could, it's an annoying waste of time. In Photoshop of course we have the Luminosity Blend Mode which I prefer to use almost always with a RGB curves adjustment.

Hi Samuel,

I do the same if further contrast adjustments in Photoshop are needed (especially important if Black/Whitepoint is shifted in, because that also seriously affects Saturation). I somehow wish 'Luminosity' could be made sticky (even if only for the current session), instead of 'Normal' for the Curves adjustment layer, because it usually happens as a final tweak that is targeted for a specific output, and it then messes with the earlier Saturation settings. I suppose it's a residue from the time that color was heavily edited with a Curves control as well. Nowadays we usually do Color adjustments at Raw conversion time.

Quote
These days I prefer Raw Therapee over Lightroom for all my raw image processing, which has several ways to adjust the tonality of an image without resulting in exaggerated chroma shifts. I'm glad about that. It's really jarring to read your civil and logical comments against some of the other more dismissive ones. Bart, you definitely have complete 'traction' with me.

Thanks, although I'm not after traction, or likes, pats on the back, or other things people may come up with. Personally, as my signature line says, I'm constantly looking for new/better ways to do things, especially when the things 'that I got' before are not to my liking. If that leads to a new discovery that makes sense, or as in this case adds to a discussion, I like to share that for the benefit of others (who often in return also share some of their findings, a win win situation).

RawTherapee has a lot going for it, and it's also free. The main hurdle for most is the less polished user interface, but that's partly caused by the abundance of features that it offers. It is a fine example of what a collaborative effort can achieve, input from all sorts of levels of expertise bundled into one application.

A very slick looking application (currently only Mac OS, but a Windows beta is coming) is Affinity Photo. It's also very affordable. I'm certainly going to try that, when the Windows version becomes available. I've not yet found much about their implementation of the Contrast control, but they do offer Luminosity blending layers, so it would be workable if not as hoped.

Dogmas lead to stagnation, investigation/research leads to innovation. And FWIW, even the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5, verse 20) mentions "Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."

So there you have it.  ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2016, 10:07:52 am »

If you change Contrast with the Contrast control, what is it in the image that you want to change?
The appearance as I desire. Which is what happens 9+ times out of ten when I do this via Adobe's implementation. And that 10th time? As I said, I have no  problems with one more step to adjust to taste. What you simply can't fathom is that the design of the product under discussion is something well thought out that many, many users enjoy. If you don't, use another product OR learn to use that 2nd dance stop to season to taste.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2016, 11:02:54 am »

The appearance as I desire. Which is what happens 9+ times out of ten when I do this via Adobe's implementation. And that 10th time? As I said, I have no  problems with one more step to adjust to taste. ......

This is also very much my experience not only from every day work on photographs, but also from the extensive testing I did of this issue and related matters nine years ago. There are however situations in which it is preferable to have a totally linear interpretation of an image file (i.e. without either contrast or saturation boost), one of which I wrote-up in my article on capturing colour film negatives with a digital camera, involving saving them as linear TIFF files with ColorPerfect MakeTIFF, and then inverting them in SilverFast HDR. These, however, are special-purpose implementations for which the linear option is good to have, but not something that I find efficient for normal digital photographic output compared with the Adobe implementation, which provides a very decent starting point for further refinement of normal photographs. A substantial volume of capture errors that require enormous post-capture adjustments challenging the limits of the application raise more questions about the photographer than about the app.
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TRANTOR

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2016, 11:45:09 am »

Special needs require special tools. :P

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2016, 12:36:32 pm »

The appearance as I desire. Which is what happens 9+ times out of ten when I do this via Adobe's implementation. And that 10th time? As I said, I have no  problems with one more step to adjust to taste.

Fine, glad you're happy. Maybe it should be called the "Appearance slider control" then.

Quote
What you simply can't fathom is that the design of the product under discussion is something well thought out that many, many users enjoy.

I'm sure that it didn't happen without giving it any thought.  However, I'd be interested in some independent research or reports on that assumed customer satisfaction, though.

You refer to thousands of happy users, but then we (you and I and several readers of this thread ;) ) also know that ignorance is bliss, and that's fine too (no need to make people aware and unhappy if a solution is out of their reach). And of course not everybody has clients with, or personally, such high expectations as some others do.

I know a number of people in my direct circle who are colorblind (like about 8 percent of males, and 0.5 percent of females), and who have to rely on the software doing the right thing, and they edit by number (clipping points / histogram / heuristics like skin tone Hue angle / etc.) based on experience. And portrait photographers who suffer over-saturated red-brown skin shadows when they adjust Contrast or Curves in the traditional way.

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If you don't, use another product OR learn to use that 2nd dance stop to season to taste.

As I said before, the DD-shuffle does not appeal to me, therefore I do use alternatives. But I'm genuinely happy that you are happy. There's no joy in a grumpy dog, or a cat for that matter.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2016, 12:56:26 pm »

Fine, glad you're happy. Maybe it should be called the "Appearance slider control" then.
Contrast IS fine. And yes, I and I suspect tens of thousands of users are happy with this behavior. Of course, every couple years, we hear this old debate (started I believe last century by Dan Margulis). It goes nowhere. Don't like the behavior? Find another product. Or figure out how to use the product to get the results you like if possible (like the massive audience for this product) Or do your due diligence to try to convince Eric or Thomas of their 'errors'.
You want independent research or reports? Use 'the Google' or check out the various Adobe sites where customers spend vastly more time writing about problems that really DO need to be addressed. This is small beans.
Quote
As I said before, the DD-shuffle does not appeal to me, therefore I do use alternatives
Great. Then time to move on. Those who are happy with this aspect of the product will do the opposite.
You want me to outline my issues and disappointment with LR? I've got plenty. That Contrast affects Saturation and makes the images look better to me isn't one of them!
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2016, 01:04:14 pm »

Special needs require special tools. :P
Very interesting! And less expensive than: http://3dlutcreator.com
That product is very powerful based on the demo I played with months ago. I'd love to see a review/comparison with this product. 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2016, 01:14:04 pm »

You are aware it uses the LAB model and requires working with rendered image files.
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2016, 01:19:12 pm »

You are aware it uses the LAB model and requires working with rendered image files.
The PS plug-in? Yes. It does work in RGB but the FAQ says something about recommending the use of  Lab which I'd avoid if possible. I'm fine that it works high bit on rendered images.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2016, 01:27:38 pm »

Well, here's what their manual says:

<<As we said above, FireGrade works in the Lab color space. So your image must be in that color space, too. But what if you have a complex document with lots of mask layers and other stuff, it is in RGB or CMYK, and you do not want to switch to the Lab mode? Smart objects will come to help! Convert the layer of interest to a smart object, open the object, convert it to Lab, use FireGrade, and save the changes. If you need to do “nondestructive” editing (that is, you may want to do corrections at any moment), convert the layer inside the smart object into another smart object, and apply FireGrade. Now you can open the smart object again to make changes.>>
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Contrast adjustment in RGB mode saturation increase
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2016, 01:29:33 pm »

Well, here's what their manual says:

<<As we said above, FireGrade works in the Lab color space. So your image must be in that color space, too. But what if you have a complex document with lots of mask layers and other stuff, it is in RGB or CMYK, and you do not want to switch to the Lab mode? Smart objects will come to help! Convert the layer of interest to a smart object, open the object, convert it to Lab, use FireGrade, and save the changes. If you need to do “nondestructive” editing (that is, you may want to do corrections at any moment), convert the layer inside the smart object into another smart object, and apply FireGrade. Now you can open the smart object again to make changes.>>
Perhaps then, the FAQ needs updating?

Q: What color modes are supported by FireGrade?
A: Lab and RGB. But only in Lab you can get expected results.
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