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Author Topic: "Please Fix Lightroom"  (Read 43807 times)

dwswager

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2016, 10:42:25 am »

The Library and Develop modules ARE Lightroom.  The rest is fluff.  At some point you have to make a cut between a word processing and publishing software.  Same with image processing and book publishing. 

There are a host of usability fixes that I would like to see and some of those could be viewed as "feature requests", but when something is intuitively obvious and needful, that it should have been available in the first place, it really moves to usability fix.

I love that Lightroom lets you filter on simple aspect criteria of portrait or landscape, but it if a real usability issue that I can't filter on whether an image has been cropped or not.  Or has been developed or not.

I struggle with the totally interactive nature of the Lr Develop Module.  That is, there is no "OK" button.  Lr appears to have no concept of the baseline state of an image when it is opened in Develop.  If you open an image in Develop that has previous settings applied, it does not understand that new baseline are those settings and not NO settings (Lr Defaults/Ground Zero).  Hence, when you decide the tweaks don't work, do you 1) want to go back to the way the image was before you tweaked it or 2) go back to the way it was when it was captured?.  In addition, because no marker is laid down when settings are "applied" Lr has a dubious idea of "Previous" settings.  Rather than the previous settings applied to the last image "developed", it uses the settings of the last image viewed.
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digitaldog

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2016, 11:08:15 am »

The Library and Develop modules ARE Lightroom.  The rest is fluff.
Maybe for you. I print. The Print module is worth price of admission for me alone.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2016, 11:44:31 am »

The Library and Develop modules ARE Lightroom.  The rest is fluff.  At some point you have to make a cut between a word processing and publishing software.  Same with image processing and book publishing. 

There are a host of usability fixes that I would like to see and some of those could be viewed as "feature requests", but when something is intuitively obvious and needful, that it should have been available in the first place, it really moves to usability fix.

I love that Lightroom lets you filter on simple aspect criteria of portrait or landscape, but it if a real usability issue that I can't filter on whether an image has been cropped or not.  Or has been developed or not.

I struggle with the totally interactive nature of the Lr Develop Module.  That is, there is no "OK" button.  Lr appears to have no concept of the baseline state of an image when it is opened in Develop.  If you open an image in Develop that has previous settings applied, it does not understand that new baseline are those settings and not NO settings (Lr Defaults/Ground Zero).  Hence, when you decide the tweaks don't work, do you 1) want to go back to the way the image was before you tweaked it or 2) go back to the way it was when it was captured?.  In addition, because no marker is laid down when settings are "applied" Lr has a dubious idea of "Previous" settings.  Rather than the previous settings applied to the last image "developed", it uses the settings of the last image viewed.

I agree with Andrew. The "rest" is absolutely not "fluff". I do ALL my printing except for targets needing ABSCOL RI from LR. I create web galleries in LR routinely, either for publication or to share family photos. I've used the Book Module and it works, for those who want an easy way to make photobooks, an industry segment of growing interest to a growing number of photographers, amateur and professional alike.

You are vastly misunderstanding the whole philosophy and architectural intent of this application, and then applying that misunderstanding to undervalue the capabilities that LR really gives you. For example, there is no OK button, because there doesn't need to be one. Every setting gets saved automatically to your catalog (and to XMP sidecars if you work in raw and have that enabled); every setting you make in Develop is PRESERVED in the history of the steps in one of the left-side panels, starting from the moment you imported the photo until the latest step that you implemented, including printing; and you can save a print set-up in the Print module so you can reprint that exact construct just by going back to the saved print in the history panel. At any time, you can trace back the whole evolution of your photo editing by clicking through the steps you made. If you want to capture an intermediate stage of the image's preparation, you can click on the last relevant step and create a Virtual Copy with which you can proceed to edit down a different track, and all those edits will be preserved and forever accessible by association with that virtual copy. I don't know what could be more intuitive, more flexible and more user-friendly than this. And your raw file is never disturbed one iota from its initial imported state because all this is meta-data, not bent pixels.

And as for the complaints elsewhere in this thread about finding photos , there are umpteen ways provided in Lightroom for keywording, tagging, organizing and labeling photos to make this very easy once you set-up your preferred system for managing your digital assets. Consult Martin Evening's, Victoria Bampton's or Peter Krogh's books for all possible instruction on how to make your archiving and retrieval life easily manageable in LR.

To assist with the distinction between "fixes" and "feature requests", let us be clear that a "fix" is to repair something they programmed but fails to work as intended. A feature request is to develop functionality that wasn't programmed before. For example, my main usability complaint with LR is with the syncing of catalogs between computers for those who work between a laptop and a desktop. This is doable, but awkward. There are other applications that manage to sync between devices much more easily, but they are different kind of applications. Perhaps it poses special issues for LR, I don't know; but if I ask them to improve this, it would be a feature request and not a fix.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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john beardsworth

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2016, 11:45:56 am »

The Library and Develop modules ARE Lightroom. The rest is fluff.

No, Lightroom is a tool that brings together most steps of the typical photographic workflow - and that's wider than just managing and adjusting pictures.
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dwswager

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2016, 12:00:30 pm »

Maybe for you. I print. The Print module is worth price of admission for me alone.

Ooops, forgot print!  My bad!
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dwswager

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2016, 12:15:38 pm »

You are vastly misunderstanding the whole philosophy and architectural intent of this application, and then applying that misunderstanding to undervalue the capabilities that LR really gives you. For example, there is no OK button, because there doesn't need to be one. Every setting gets saved automatically to your catalog (and to XMP sidecars if you work in raw and have that enabled); every setting you make in Develop is PRESERVED in the history of the steps in one of the left-side panels, starting from the moment you imported the photo until the latest step that you implemented, including printing; and you can save a print set-up in the Print module so you can reprint that exact construct just by going back to the saved print in the history panel. At any time, you can trace back the whole evolution of your photo editing by clicking through the steps you made. If you want to capture an intermediate stage of the image's preparation, you can click on the last relevant step and create a Virtual Copy with which you can proceed to edit down a different track, and all those edits will be preserved and forever accessible by association with that virtual copy. I don't know what could be more intuitive, more flexible and more user-friendly than this. And your raw file is never disturbed one iota from its initial imported state because all this is meta-data, not bent pixels.

And as for the complaints elsewhere in this thread about finding photos , there are umpteen ways provided in Lightroom for keywording, tagging, organizing and labeling photos to make this very easy once you set-up your preferred system for managing your digital assets. Consult Martin Evening's, Victoria Bampton's or Peter Krogh's books for all possible instruction on how to make your archiving and retrieval life easily manageable in LR.

To assist with the distinction between "fixes" and "feature requests", let us be clear that a "fix" is to repair something they programmed but fails to work as intended. A feature request is to develop functionality that wasn't programmed before. For example, my main usability complaint with LR is with the syncing of catalogs between computers for those who work between a laptop and a desktop. This is doable, but awkward. There are other applications that manage to sync between devices much more easily, but they are different kind of applications. Perhaps it poses special issues for LR, I don't know; but if I ask them to improve this, it would be a feature request and not a fix.

I'm not misunderstanding it, I said I'm struggling with it because it requires a complete shift in how you not only execute, but how you think about executing.  I will eventually get the hang of it. 

Cropped/Not-Cropped and Custom Settings/No Custom Settings are attributes of the image.  They appear to be attributes that Lr does offer a way to filter on.  At least not in any direct manner.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2016, 12:19:49 pm »

I'm not misunderstanding it, I said I'm struggling with it because it requires a complete shift in how you not only execute, but how you think about executing.  I will eventually get the hang of it. 

Cropped/Not-Cropped and Custom Settings/No Custom Settings are attributes of the image.  They appear to be attributes that Lr does offer a way to filter on.  At least not in any direct manner.

No doubt you will get the hang of it easily with some practice and experience. If you need to reference different versions of the same photo, you can do it by keywording, or by creating virtual copies of the different states.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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john beardsworth

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2016, 01:07:31 pm »

Cropped/Not-Cropped and Custom Settings/No Custom Settings are attributes of the image.  They appear to be attributes that Lr does offer a way to filter on.  At least not in any direct manner.

Yes, it would be good if Lr's Library Filter could filter on more than simply portrait/landscape, like Bridge. But Lr filters on more other fields than Bridge, and does so better - you can do both "and" and "or" queries.

Smart collections add more filtering options such as whether an image has adjustments or whether it is cropped. Yes, I'd like the filter and smart collection criteria to be identical, but there is an easy solution if it's important to you to know if an image is cropped.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 01:27:05 pm by john beardsworth »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2016, 03:15:29 pm »

I struggle with the totally interactive nature of the Lr Develop Module.  That is, there is no "OK" button.  Lr appears to have no concept of the baseline state of an image when it is opened in Develop.  If you open an image in Develop that has previous settings applied, it does not understand that new baseline are those settings and not NO settings (Lr Defaults/Ground Zero).  Hence, when you decide the tweaks don't work, do you 1) want to go back to the way the image was before you tweaked it or 2) go back to the way it was when it was captured?.  In addition, because no marker is laid down when settings are "applied" Lr has a dubious idea of "Previous" settings.  Rather than the previous settings applied to the last image "developed", it uses the settings of the last image viewed.

I've had the same struggles. Just fired up LR4 to get a refresher before reading your post (that Kafka link was way too enthralling) to apply further tweaks on an image in Develop and couldn't find a way to save the current edits since I'ld cleared its history state months back. I had to stop and think forensically how LR functions as an app that presents images in a continuous state of edits where the history state is your only bread crumbs that lead back to where you started even though it can be a long trail to follow and too time consuming.

Then I thought of the Snapshot feature and created one at the start, tweaked some more, clicked back to Snapshot, tweaked some more and noticed by control clicking on the Snapshot that a drop down menu gives options to update the Snapshot to the current state without going down the long list of tweaks.

I JUST FOUND THIS OUT TODAY! WHY!?

Because LR has way too many options, preferences and nested menu features that are scattered about the interface that don't allow learning them in a real world image editing situation. It's a cluttered mess of an image editing toolbox. Just go through the menus and try to figure out whether you can use all that's listed. I don't know what they are or why I would need them.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2016, 03:57:01 pm »

I've had the same struggles. Just fired up LR4 to get a refresher before reading your post (that Kafka link was way too enthralling) to apply further tweaks on an image in Develop and couldn't find a way to save the current edits since I'ld cleared its history state months back. I had to stop and think forensically how LR functions as an app that presents images in a continuous state of edits where the history state is your only bread crumbs that lead back to where you started even though it can be a long trail to follow and too time consuming.

Then I thought of the Snapshot feature and created one at the start, tweaked some more, clicked back to Snapshot, tweaked some more and noticed by control clicking on the Snapshot that a drop down menu gives options to update the Snapshot to the current state without going down the long list of tweaks.

I JUST FOUND THIS OUT TODAY! WHY!?

Because LR has way too many options, preferences and nested menu features that are scattered about the interface that don't allow learning them in a real world image editing situation. It's a cluttered mess of an image editing toolbox. Just go through the menus and try to figure out whether you can use all that's listed. I don't know what they are or why I would need them.

If you're just finding out about such stuff today, I suggest you buy and study a good book on how to use this application. I highly recommend Martin Evening and Victoria Bampton. These resources should give you an adequate comfort level with LR's very considerable capabilities and the logic of the workflows, which are well represented in the menu structure. And BTW, NEVER delete history. History is one of LR's key strengths.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2016, 04:49:53 pm »

If you're just finding out about such stuff today, I suggest you buy and study a good book on how to use this application. I highly recommend Martin Evening and Victoria Bampton. These resources should give you an adequate comfort level with LR's very considerable capabilities and the logic of the workflows, which are well represented in the menu structure. And BTW, NEVER delete history. History is one of LR's key strengths.

Books don't work for me, Mark, because it's written by someone who followed their own journey to get to where they are and now assume how easy it should be for others. LR's interface and menu structure is not very intuitive for me because it is laid out by someone who has other ideas on how to work that works for them by them following their own sense of structure, discipline and planning. If LR was designed for one way of working then there shouldn't be so many menu drop downs and preferences to futz with.

The more options and tools cluttered about an app interface or any tool (i.e. airline cockpit) the more one has to retrace the steps of the designer of such a tool on how THEY think is the best way to work. Not going to waste my time figuring that out especially with an interface that is this busy and compartmentalized.

Why would I ever want to save the history state if I've already made up my mind that the final edit is what I want? And if I go back to the image later to do further tweaks, it means I didn't like what the history state recorded anyway. I know my eyes have adapted after long edits fighting LR's interface and returning to seeing the image differently. And the blurring of the preview as it refreshes each edit is a big slow down as well. At some point in the long list of history tweaks the preview stops doing this but I never know when it will kick in. A book isn't going to tell me how to avoid or fix that.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2016, 04:59:17 pm »

So what I've learned from this experience today is, when in LR I should now try control clicking on every interface element just to see what other options it gives that the designers thought shouldn't be part of the way I work but throws it in there just in case.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2016, 05:07:47 pm »

Well, sorry books don't work for you, because they contain heaps of helpful information.

You want to save the histgory so you don't need to reinvent the whole wheel every time your taste, judgment or purposing of the photo changes.

I don't know what kind of computer set-up you use, but on mine, dating from 2010, there is no troublesome slowdown of preview refresh. Most of them are pretty instantaneous. Maybe if you are using the feature that has much of the processing done in the graphics card you should switch that feature off. Perhaps your graphics card is not well-adapted to the latest versions of LR that make more intensive use of it.

By the way, the design and layout of this application started back before Version One as a highly interactive process between Adobe and many thousands of eager application testers, along with live sessions in several venues, followed up with forums for reporting bugs and requesting features. The design and improvement of LR has probably been one of the most customer-interactive experiences of application design in the industry. Yes, there was a screw-up with the Import dialog recently, but they've understood and repaired. It's simply not correct to portray LR as "laid out by someone who has other ideas". These things are designed by large teams of people with extensive oversight and QC, aided by massive amounts of feedback from customers who they listen to. Yes of course, they may have other ideas than you have, but then again, they are professional digital imaging application designers and we learn from them and educational resources (books, video tutorials)  how to maximize the benefit we can derive from their creativity.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2016, 05:37:35 pm »

Well, sorry books don't work for you, because they contain heaps of helpful information.

You want to save the histgory so you don't need to reinvent the whole wheel every time your taste, judgment or purposing of the photo changes.

I don't know what kind of computer set-up you use, but on mine, dating from 2010, there is no troublesome slowdown of preview refresh. Most of them are pretty instantaneous. Maybe if you are using the feature that has much of the processing done in the graphics card you should switch that feature off. Perhaps your graphics card is not well-adapted to the latest versions of LR that make more intensive use of it.

By the way, the design and layout of this application started back before Version One as a highly interactive process between Adobe and many thousands of eager application testers, along with live sessions in several venues, followed up with forums for reporting bugs and requesting features. The design and improvement of LR has probably been one of the most customer-interactive experiences of application design in the industry. Yes, there was a screw-up with the Import dialog recently, but they've understood and repaired. It's simply not correct to portray LR as "laid out by someone who has other ideas". These things are designed by large teams of people with extensive oversight and QC, aided by massive amounts of feedback from customers who they listen to. Yes of course, they may have other ideas than you have, but then again, they are professional digital imaging application designers and we learn from them and educational resources (books, video tutorials)  how to maximize the benefit we can derive from their creativity.

I'm not looking for an argument, Mark, so I'm perplexed by your insistence to convince me with rehashed information I already know.

Erasing history state does not take me back to reinventing the whole wheel. Where are you getting this from? When I quit LR and relaunch after several months the same image that has its history state erased opens in Develop where I left off after I had saved to xmp (Command 'S').

In fact the length of the history state of an image reminds me how I struggle with LR's interface to give me what I want working intuitively with the preview.

I know quitting LR loses things that have to be turned back on upon relaunch months later, but I can never narrow down what it loses. Command Z with a new history state list shows the bezel over the preview but doesn't blur the preview. That only happens when adding more tweaks on the same image after relaunching several months later sans history state. Maybe leaving the history state intact before quitting LR will prevent the blurring after later edits. I don't know but it's just one of several little frustrations that add up to one big feeling of dread going back to LR after several months away.
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FabienP

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2016, 06:19:55 pm »

So what I've learned from this experience today is, when in LR I should now try control clicking on every interface element just to see what other options it gives that the designers thought shouldn't be part of the way I work but throws it in there just in case.

To my knowledge, this applies to any application sold rented by Adobe. To be sure not to miss any potentially useful function, you should do this for every possible combination of SHIFT +/or CTRL +/or ALT + left Click (on a PC).

This might be puzzling at first, but there has to be a way to cram so much keyboard shortcuts on a standard 104+ keys keyboard.

Ideally for people like me, who have trouble remembering all these shortcuts, there ought to be a way to perform the same action with a set of context menu + click actions.

Cheers,

Fabien
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2016, 11:21:11 pm »

To my knowledge, this applies to any application sold rented by Adobe. To be sure not to miss any potentially useful function, you should do this for every possible combination of SHIFT +/or CTRL +/or ALT + left Click (on a PC).

This might be puzzling at first, but there has to be a way to cram so much keyboard shortcuts on a standard 104+ keys keyboard.

Ideally for people like me, who have trouble remembering all these shortcuts, there ought to be a way to perform the same action with a set of context menu + click actions.

Cheers,

Fabien

Agreed, in addition I get a strong impression that the LR designers must think photographers by and large are obsessive multi-taskers extraordinaire. At least LR makes photographers appear very busy and technically advanced.
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donbga

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2016, 10:04:59 am »

Agreed, in addition I get a strong impression that the LR designers must think photographers by and large are obsessive multi-taskers extraordinaire. At least LR makes photographers appear very busy and technically advanced.

I think everyone including Kafka will agree that it was Colonel Mustard in the Library with the candelstick.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2016, 10:23:03 am »

I'm not looking for an argument, Mark, so I'm perplexed by your insistence to convince me with rehashed information I already know.

Erasing history state does not take me back to reinventing the whole wheel. Where are you getting this from? When I quit LR and relaunch after several months the same image that has its history state erased opens in Develop where I left off after I had saved to xmp (Command 'S').

In fact the length of the history state of an image reminds me how I struggle with LR's interface to give me what I want working intuitively with the preview.

I know quitting LR loses things that have to be turned back on upon relaunch months later, but I can never narrow down what it loses. Command Z with a new history state list shows the bezel over the preview but doesn't blur the preview. That only happens when adding more tweaks on the same image after relaunching several months later sans history state. Maybe leaving the history state intact before quitting LR will prevent the blurring after later edits. I don't know but it's just one of several little frustrations that add up to one big feeling of dread going back to LR after several months away.

Hi Tim - for avoidance of doubt, let me clarify I'm not looking for an argument either and frankly I don't know you or what you know or don't know. I'm just responding to what I read with no other context. In fairness, very few of us know everything there is to know about this application. I just think it's being under-estimated and simply making the point that the more one knows about its functionality and gains experience, the better it is.

Yes, we both know that if one quits LR and re-opens it, we are where we left off. What I meant by re-inventing the wheel is that once the history track is gone and if you want to re-analyze what you've done, or jump in and change something part way through the previous editing sequence, this becomes no longer possible if one had erased the history steps.

I have not experienced LR losing anything done to an image when the application is shut down and relaunched at a later date. This seems very strange to me. Nor have I seen any incremental blurring. I do get momentary fuzziness during the loading period when a preview is being magnified from standard to 100% because I only make standard previews to start with - takes less time. The only other tool that produces really momentary fuzz is the sharpening filter, when increasing the parameters. But these things are very short-lived and really trivial - at least on my set-up, which as I may have mentioned is now six years old but still "performing".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2016, 02:49:10 pm »

Hi Tim - for avoidance of doubt, let me clarify I'm not looking for an argument either and frankly I don't know you or what you know or don't know. I'm just responding to what I read with no other context. In fairness, very few of us know everything there is to know about this application. I just think it's being under-estimated and simply making the point that the more one knows about its functionality and gains experience, the better it is.

So as not to show I under-estimate LR how should I post my experience using the app? I see something, I say something. I can't control if someone sees it as a negative statement. What I posted was specific small annoyances of the day to day use that isn't going to be fixed after gaining experience using the app.

So, you don't know a thing about me or what I know after my 1797 posts using my real name anyone can google as a LuLa "Sr. Member" offering other LuLa members solutions (that I've been told helped them) spread across 11 years? You think I don't have enough experience to know what I'm doing in LR? Sorry, I over estimated your confidence in me.
 
What I meant by re-inventing the wheel is that once the history track is gone and if you want to re-analyze what you've done, or jump in and change something part way through the previous editing sequence, this becomes no longer possible if one had erased the history steps.

You've misunderstood the way I use the history state in that I base my analysis of edits in relation to image quality viewing the preview. The history state is just recording my intuitive responses going from point A to point B with that in mind. Once I've reached my goal, I don't need to rehash or go backwards on a process designed to move forward.

The length of the history state list tells me LR tools and previews force me to edit the image to the PV2012 way of adjusting/judging tonality where I have to rely a lot on the point curve to make the image look the way I want. Do you know how many history state tracks that generates, Mark? The time it takes to scroll down that list I could start over from scratch and be farther ahead.

The only other tool that produces really momentary fuzz is the sharpening filter, when increasing the parameters. But these things are very short-lived and really trivial - at least on my set-up, which as I may have mentioned is now six years old but still "performing".

This momentary fuzz in the preview for me creating new edits with the sliders doesn't happen all the time, but I can't narrow it down to when in relation to the cause. On my 2010 Mac Mini/OS 10.6.8 I think it might have to do with completely shutting down the computer and unplugging it during the numerous thunderstorms here in Texas. It seems or feels like it might also be related to when the OS runs its cron scripts and what gets refreshed or rebuilt in cache relaunching LR.

I have similar issues just not as often with CS5 Bridge but it appears related to how many adjustment & spot healing brush edits and Lens Profile/Transform extremes applied on an image by image basis. But I suspect with both apps it is preview related.

Thanks for making the effort to respond to my concerns, Mark.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 02:54:07 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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dwswager

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2016, 06:11:58 pm »


Then I thought of the Snapshot feature and created one at the start, tweaked some more, clicked back to Snapshot, tweaked some more and noticed by control clicking on the Snapshot that a drop down menu gives options to update the Snapshot to the current state without going down the long list of tweaks.

I JUST FOUND THIS OUT TODAY! WHY!?

That is what I meant about thinking about how you execute.  Lr offers the snapshots and versioning options, but you have to think to do them first.  Once you use Lr for some time and build the brain memory to do it that way, then no problem.  Its the same with the copy and paste of settings.  It makes you think up front about what you want to copy and paste where in Br you can just copy and then while looking at the new image decide what you want to paste.
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