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Author Topic: "Please Fix Lightroom"  (Read 36217 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2016, 07:35:57 pm »

So as not to show I under-estimate LR how should I post my experience using the app? I see something, I say something. I can't control if someone sees it as a negative statement. What I posted was specific small annoyances of the day to day use that isn't going to be fixed after gaining experience using the app.

So, you don't know a thing about me or what I know after my 1797 posts using my real name anyone can google as a LuLa "Sr. Member" offering other LuLa members solutions (that I've been told helped them) spread across 11 years? You think I don't have enough experience to know what I'm doing in LR? Sorry, I over estimated your confidence in me.
 
You've misunderstood the way I use the history state in that I base my analysis of edits in relation to image quality viewing the preview. The history state is just recording my intuitive responses going from point A to point B with that in mind. Once I've reached my goal, I don't need to rehash or go backwards on a process designed to move forward.

The length of the history state list tells me LR tools and previews force me to edit the image to the PV2012 way of adjusting/judging tonality where I have to rely a lot on the point curve to make the image look the way I want. Do you know how many history state tracks that generates, Mark? The time it takes to scroll down that list I could start over from scratch and be farther ahead.

This momentary fuzz in the preview for me creating new edits with the sliders doesn't happen all the time, but I can't narrow it down to when in relation to the cause. On my 2010 Mac Mini/OS 10.6.8 I think it might have to do with completely shutting down the computer and unplugging it during the numerous thunderstorms here in Texas. It seems or feels like it might also be related to when the OS runs its cron scripts and what gets refreshed or rebuilt in cache relaunching LR.

I have similar issues just not as often with CS5 Bridge but it appears related to how many adjustment & spot healing brush edits and Lens Profile/Transform extremes applied on an image by image basis. But I suspect with both apps it is preview related.

Thanks for making the effort to respond to my concerns, Mark.

Tim, when I respond to what is said in one thread I don't take account of the 1797 previous posts. Life's too short for that and I truly don't doubt your varied photographic experience or your helpfulness on the Forum. I simply wasn't sure you were appreciating certain aspects of *this* application based on the content of *this* thread. As I now know you do, it boils down to  different people having different ways of using it and different expectations, so let us leave it at that. Peace and goodwill.

Getting back to the technical side, we are both using what is now 6 year old "vintage" hardware, but mine is a MacPro with 24GB RAM, 24 virtual cores and quite a good graphics card, and I have updated the system to El Capitan, making the OS and latest versions of software running on it perhaps more copacetic. This may explain why you seem to experience more processing lags than I seem to. At some point, software-driven hardware upgrades become inevitable. I'm holding off as long as I'm not taking a performance hit, but perhaps you are closer to that threshold - I don't know. Martin Evening has some useful stuff on ideal computer configurations for the latest versions of LR. Could be worth checking out.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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AFairley

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2016, 11:30:26 am »

It strikes me that a lot of these discussions about LR originate with people who have more or less jumped into using the software without taking the time to actually read the "manual" - in this case the many printed books and video guides that are out there.  This strikes me as somewhat like a Cessna pilot who tries to fly a Boeing Dreamliner cold and complains how it's not like what he's familiar with.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2016, 06:13:19 pm »

Keep striking, AFairley. You're still off base and speaking about an issue you have no evidence to support your opinion.

You really think LR is as complicated as flying a Boeing Dreamliner? That's so telling but I'm not sure if it's about LR or AFairley ability to assess and empathize with folks who are just stating their experience using LR. Why does this seem to bother people here? Why should you be so concerned about someone posting real information about an app you didn't design and sell to the public?

I really wish educated folks here (or at least they come across educated) would refrain from having to reply with useless opinions to others having real issues with a piece of software. No one is asking you for solutions especially those that blame the user who paid good money to use the software.

We're not idiots! So stop talking to us as if you think we are.

 
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Schewe

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2016, 07:30:28 pm »

Why would I ever want to save the history state if I've already made up my mind that the final edit is what I want?

Well, not all users are you. There is a very good reason for History, Lightroom tracks it whether or not you make it visible to see. If you don't like History, you are welcome to hit that little arrow to hide it. For some users such as scientific and industrial users, having an EXACT list of EVERY step is useful for proving the provinance of an image and how the user arrived at the final result.

It seems to me that rather than trashing the history of your image's settings, you might simple want to not actively use the feature. There's nothing that says you must anything but this doesn't seem to be something to argue about.

If you want to know WHY History is in LR, it's there because LR tracks and stores everything it knows about an image and the adjustments made. It has to. Back when Mark Hamburg created LR, there was discussion about exposing the History to the users. There were some users (like me) that found History interesting and useful so Mark Exposed it to the user. If you don't like it, hide it...
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2016, 08:00:36 pm »

For some users such as scientific and industrial users, having an EXACT list of EVERY step is useful for proving the provinance of an image and how the user arrived at the final result.

...............

Of course, but I would broaden it with additional examples of other users and situations. There are (perhaps many) photographers for whom this is extremely useful. And I would further broaden the concept of "result". Some results may well be "final", but a great many others may not - for example the various instances when we re-purpose a photo; often we find that re-purposing is most efficiently done as a combination of existing history steps to a point, beyond which there is a fork in the road, we make a virtual copy and tweak it for other end-uses, other media, more up-to-date processing options etc. Having this kind of efficient flexibility provided in part by the ever-present history track is one of LR's major strengths.

Your comment on Mark Hamburg and the decisions made in the early days is indeed a propos. I think it useful to have some perspective on the philosophy underpinning the development and evolution of this application, and the very broad and diverse user base to which it is oriented. A good application has a judicious blend of the application adapted to the users and the users adapting to the application. Personally I think LR strikes a nice balance with this, especially considering the diversity of the client base. In a way, it's a bit of a beguiling program because on the one hand it appears quite intuitive by design, but on the other hand it's pretty deep, warranting 700 no-nonsense pages of instruction from Martin, for example! I've been using it since Version 1 and am still learning this and that as I tug and pull at it to keep myself out of Photoshop and still get the result I want - kind of a challenge game and a big saver of storage.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2016, 09:08:29 pm »

Well, not all users are you. There is a very good reason for History, Lightroom tracks it whether or not you make it visible to see. If you don't like History, you are welcome to hit that little arrow to hide it. For some users such as scientific and industrial users, having an EXACT list of EVERY step is useful for proving the provinance of an image and how the user arrived at the final result.

It seems to me that rather than trashing the history of your image's settings, you might simple want to not actively use the feature. There's nothing that says you must anything but this doesn't seem to be something to argue about.

If you want to know WHY History is in LR, it's there because LR tracks and stores everything it knows about an image and the adjustments made. It has to. Back when Mark Hamburg created LR, there was discussion about exposing the History to the users. There were some users (like me) that found History interesting and useful so Mark Exposed it to the user. If you don't like it, hide it...

Jeff, you didn't read through the entire thread, did you?

I'm not knocking LR's history state. I'm knocking the fact that when I relaunch LR after 3 months away the last image worked on shows up (THAT'S A GOOD THING!).

However, when I do further edits there's no way to go back to when I started except by hitting Command Z to go down the long list of history states of newer added edits (this is why I deleted the history state 3 months prior to shorten the list for future edits)

Alternatively continually hitting Command Z can take me all the way back INTO LR's LIBRARY! WOW! That's one hell of a memory list for a Command Z function. I'm back in the Library where I first started. I wonder if I continued to hit Command Z if it would quit LR and take me back to the desktop!  ;D
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2016, 09:10:55 pm »

I fixed my problem with the history states by first creating a Snapshot which is a good thing. See I'm all positive on LR.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2016, 09:12:46 pm »

Well, not all users are you. There is a very good reason for History, Lightroom tracks it whether or not you make it visible to see. If you don't like History, you are welcome to hit that little arrow to hide it.

Correct.

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For some users such as scientific and industrial users, having an EXACT list of EVERY step is useful for proving the provinance of an image and how the user arrived at the final result.

Whoa. LR isn't quite the platform for Scientifically oriented users to begin with ...

I should know, having been in both that position (as a local sales and trade representative for Kodak's line of Instrumentation, Photofabrication, Aerial, and Scientific line of products) since some 38 years ago, AND being a certified Professional photographer for approximately 40 years by now (and an amateur photographer for some 48 years  ...).

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It seems to me that rather than trashing the history of your image's settings, you might simple want to not actively use the feature.

I agree.

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If you want to know WHY History is in LR, it's there because LR tracks and stores everything it knows about an image and the adjustments made. It has to.

Not really, it doesn't have to, it only has to remember the relevant steps taken, it doesn't NEED to record/display all of them (it could e.g. eliminate on/off, or before/after, attempts), and I therefore agree with Tim, it's also recording the (trial and error, and resetting) steps that are not essential to arriving at the final image. And even then, isn't the final attempt supposed to be the final attempt?

Snapshots can be used for alternative renderings, and they are better suited for the purpose of comparison, because they probably represent larger and more significant, stages of development.

Quote
Back when Mark Hamburg created LR, there was discussion about exposing the History to the users. There were some users (like me) that found History interesting and useful so Mark Exposed it to the user. If you don't like it, hide it...

Good advice, although it does occupy/waste space for those who do not need a track-record of all of their (temporary) trial settings.

People like Tim would like to, or should try to, like in Photoshop, backtrack to several intermediate attempts before progressing (AKA snapshots). I think that snapshots are the proper/better way to go about that, but wasted 'space' for on/off switches should not be recorded in history to begin with.

To mention but one of the improvements that could be implemented in LR

Cheers,
Bart
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2016, 09:20:59 pm »

You can economize on history steps in LR quite easily: (1) if you don't like what you just did, Undo it; (2) if you made say half a dozen edits that you want to "get rid of", click on the last good one and continue editing, the ones on top of the list will disappear.

You can make good use of prior history for re-purposing or further edits either with Snapshots as mentioned above, or you can go back to the point of the last edit in the history track you want to keep, click on that state and then create a virtual copy. The virtual copy will start a new history track keeping the previous edits in the list below the one you clicked on when you made the VC, and ready to continue on with the new edits. VCs are all metadata and a preview, so take little space.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2016, 09:33:05 pm »

Well, I'm all glad you're in agreement. How was that useful information, Bart? You think no one realizes that not everyone uses LR the same way?

Hi Tim,

It would seem (to me anyway) obvious (and not unexpected) that there are different types of usage possible for LR. Apparently that is not the case for all readers ...

However, in an attempt to defend anything Adobe, some people tend to go overboard and dismiss all complaints/improvement suggestions without really considering if there might be some justified/useful aspect to them.

Cheers,
Bart
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2016, 09:39:44 pm »

And then again there are those who communicate quite regularly with Adobe about application improvements they would like to see introduced, but they don't broadcast this all over the internet. I frankly don't see this or many other discussions being defensive of Adobe - we have no reason to be. It's a matter of each one calling the shots as we see them. You know, much as different people use the program in different ways, which is all well and good, different people can see the glass as half full or half empty. That's just attitudinal; let's not start going down the rabbit hole of hidden agendas - not helpful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2016, 09:40:22 pm »

Since I believe Andrew Rodney mentioned something about LR's Snapshot getting deleted when something happens to LR's Catalog, another alternative to creating a starting point on new edits after returning to the image after 3 months would be (after deleting the history state at that time) just do one small edit that doesn't affect the preview. That one edit now in the history state list applied 3 months prior will be the new starting point for newer edits in the future to go back to.

I've tried Virtual Copies. I don't like having to sort through several thumbnails of the same image in Library where I have to remember how to distinguish the original from the copy by looking for the tiny VC icon dog eared on one of the corners.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2016, 09:41:32 pm »

Hi Tim,

It would seem (to me anyway) obvious (and not unexpected) that there are different types of usage possible for LR. Apparently that is not the case for all readers ...

However, in an attempt to defend anything Adobe, some people tend to go overboard and dismiss all complaints/improvement suggestions without really considering if there might be some justified/useful aspect to them.

Cheers,
Bart

I removed my comment Bart because I thought it wasn't useful information.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2016, 10:36:10 pm »


This momentary fuzz in the preview for me creating new edits with the sliders doesn't happen all the time, but I can't narrow it down to when in relation to the cause. On my 2010 Mac Mini/OS 10.6.8
What version of LR are you on?  It's been a long time since Adobe supported lightroom on 10.6.x. Lightroom 6 to 6.1 is supported on OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion), the current version of lightroom is supported on versions OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) and higher.  that doesn't mean it won't work, but it certainly could be causing some odd issues, especially with functions accessing the GPU.  I believe LR 4 was the last version which was supported by 10.6.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2016, 11:18:15 pm »

What version of LR are you on?  It's been a long time since Adobe supported lightroom on 10.6.x. Lightroom 6 to 6.1 is supported on OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion), the current version of lightroom is supported on versions OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) and higher.  that doesn't mean it won't work, but it certainly could be causing some odd issues, especially with functions accessing the GPU.  I believe LR 4 was the last version which was supported by 10.6.

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at in reply #40 - could be issues of how OS, LR and hardware versions are working together or not.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2016, 05:04:56 am »

History steps and snapshots are very similar in LR, even if they are stored in separate tables inside the catalogue. You may think of each history step as an automated snapshot that is created every time you do anything in the develop module, and LR put the performed action and values as the "snapshot" name. In the case of snapshot, you can edit that name. Both history and snapshot record all the current develop settings, not just the one that have changed.

The history table also records the date/time when the adjustment was made, but this information is not shown in the LR interface. I believe showing the date and time would satisfy many request I have seen on online forums. The snapshot table on the other hand, does not record the date/time when the snapshot was created.


Since I believe Andrew Rodney mentioned something about LR's Snapshot getting deleted when something happens to LR's Catalog,

I really doubt this happens. Snapshots are stored in the database in the same way as the history steps. If something happens to the LR's Catalog it might affect any table, not just the one that has the snapshots. In any case, backup the catalog as often as possible.

Schewe

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2016, 09:10:57 am »

Correct.

Whoa. LR isn't quite the platform for Scientifically oriented users to begin with ...

So, you don't know ANY scientists using Lightroom?

I'll be sure to let my friends down in Antarctica that are documenting climate change by photographing erosion of glacial ice they aren't real scientists because they are using DSLR cameras to document the changes and Lightroom to catalog the images. Not everybody who is documenting scientific work photographically are using special "instruments" ya know.

Do you have another cataloging application that would be better suited to scientific use?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2016, 10:35:39 am »

So, you don't know ANY scientists using Lightroom?

So when a scientist uses a (any) tool, then the tool is a scientific instrument, that's your reasoning? Like e.g. a coffee cup, or a pen to write a note, becoming a scientific instrument? That's too silly. They are just tools.

Of course one can use a tool like LR as part of science project and keep track of images and some relevant metadata with it, but that doesn't make it a scientific tool. It can't be used to perform photogrammetry, or measure temperature, or pressure, do spectral or radiometric analysis, or record sound or seismic events, to name a few. Those would be candidates (after calibration) for being called scientific instruments/tools.

LR is just an image catalog and creative image processing utility, and quite useful for that generic purpose. In fact, the Process 2012 tonal compression makes it very hard to do meaningful photometric work on the resulting images. One would need to do that in linear gamma space anyway, and with special scene referred camera profiles if recording in color.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ranger Rick

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2016, 10:57:33 am »

If we want to talk about "fix", how about glacial speed when starting up, and when creating Standard Previews?  Maybe it is just a problem for LR6 (nonCC) users to encourage them to switch, but I have found it takes a veeeeery long time to launch the program. I have a 2015 MacBook Pro with 16gb of RAM, no other programs running, all components on the MBP, about 1k images in library.

It is a heck of  lot slower to launch than it used to be, and the Import progress bar showing Standard Preview creation gets stuck at about 5% and takes forever to  create Previews (standard) for even a dozen iPhone photos; I try clicking on some of the images in the filmstrip to "wake it up", which "seems" to help a bit, but it can take several minutes to create Standard Previews for even the dozen images. It's enough to drive me to seriously considering alternatives.  Demos of other image processing applications run speedily.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 01:14:30 pm by Ranger Rick »
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dwswager

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Re: "Please Fix Lightroom"
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2016, 11:34:20 am »

It strikes me that a lot of these discussions about LR originate with people who have more or less jumped into using the software without taking the time to actually read the "manual" - in this case the many printed books and video guides that are out there.  This strikes me as somewhat like a Cessna pilot who tries to fly a Boeing Dreamliner cold and complains how it's not like what he's familiar with.

Yes, I agree.  But there are 2 parts to this.  First is learning what features are available and how to use them.  But the other is how well executed is the Human Interface design for the software.  Did the designers respect established conventions?  When not, is there a valid reason and was it well documented?  Is the interface intuitive and does it guide you to correct operation while staying out of the way?

It would be very helpful to newbies to the software for longtime Lr users to explain WHY a particular feature had to be executed a particular way as opposed to following the more intuitive or established mechanism rather than just blindly defending how the software was executed.  Don't get me wrong, one must use the software as it exists, but it would be nice to push for fixes where it would make the software easier to use, even when it breaks the conventions of how Lr did it in the past.
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