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Author Topic: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information  (Read 12039 times)

shadowblade

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Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« on: April 08, 2016, 12:27:08 pm »

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-bomb-rumor-first-a9-specs-dual-xqd-card-slot-unlimited-raw-burst/

SonyAlphaRumors gave it their SR5 credibility score, which isn't often wrong.

I wonder what this implies in terms of the camera's final design. Unlimited RAW burst has to mean at least one, if not more, of the following things:

- Super-fast write speed (doesn't matter how big the buffer is - if the write speed is slower than the shooting speed, then the buffer will eventually fill up and the burst isn't unlimited)
- Low resolution
- Low frame rate
- Extensive image compression

No doubt XQD is fast. But how fast?

If the A9 uses the rumoured 80MP sensor, would it be restricted to 5fps or less, or would it be capable of 10fps or higher? If, on the other hand, the A9 is an action-oriented, 24MP sensor, it could shoot a lot faster. But which one makes sense for Sony to make?

Certainly, the A7r line has been the most successful for Sony. But how much of that is made up of dissatisfied Canon shooters using Metabones adapters to gain access to a better sensor? And how much of that would translate to sales of an A9r, given that those willing to use adapters, almost by definition, don't care too much about AF, at least when image quality remains an overriding concern? High-performance AF systems tend to imply suitability for action photography, which tends to favour high frame rate and, consequently, a lower resolution in order to support the frame rate.

On the flip side, Sony's recent GM lenses are designed for both fast AF and 100MP resolutions, and almost scream for a high-resolution, top-level body to take advantage of both. And a fast-focusing, high-resolution body would be immensely useful for sports and wildlife, where cropping remains an everyday necessity, while pixel binning can allow for smaller files while still taking advantage of every pixel on the sensor. Moreover, while the A9's AF is almost certain to be fast and accurate, will it be a match for the 1Dx2 and D5, or at least come close enough that it doesn't matter which one you choose? If not, then it may be hard for the new body to attract buyers away from the Canon/Nikon action bodies, and the high-resolution option (competing with the 5Ds, 5D4 and D810) makes more sense again.

Or there's the hybrid option - a very fast buffer and hardware/firmware-based mRAW and sRAW conversion, capable of saving 80MP files to XQD at 5fps or 20MP pixel-binned files at 10-15fps. Certainly, such a hybrid would be a long shot, but nothing else would quite say 'F U' to Canon and put Sony in a prime position like a camera that managed to beat both the 1Dx2 and 5Ds at the same time - and we know Sony has been seeking that prime position ever since they made their first foray into digital interchangeable-lens cameras.

Perhaps there will be multiple versions of the A9 - at least an A9r and an A9s, since those who buy higher-end equipment tend to require them for more specialised purposes, rather than a one-tool-fits-all approach (the D810 is probably the closest to that we have at the moment). That would be the sensible thing - 24-36MP and >10fps for the action shooters and 70-80MP for the high-resolution shooters, with similar performance in every other respect (ISO, AF, etc.). Complementary, top-level bodies, focusing on different areas, like the D810/D4s, 5Ds/1Dx and old 5D2/1D3 combos. Cater for all applications, with the only difference between them being the sensor and the firmware, and many people will end up buying one of each.

Any thoughts?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 02:09:48 pm »

Any thoughts?

the "highest" line of cameras from C&N are all speed/low mp bodies... so I think A9 shall have a different body and probably 20-24mp Sony sensor with Exmor RS2 which means

1) ADC on die, many
2) Aptina like capacity switch to reduce noise @ higher gains... may be even they take if further and make it 3 capacitors to have 2 stage vs 2 capacitors 1 stage
4) BSI
4) stacked design with RAM right behind the sensor chip die

may be Sony will use (or license) DFD from Panasonic and make combined PDAF on sensor with DFD to approach PDAF off sensor speed more than 6300/A7RII can...

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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 02:52:14 pm »

the "highest" line of cameras from C&N are all speed/low mp bodies... so I think A9 shall have a different body and probably 20-24mp Sony sensor with Exmor RS2 which means

1) ADC on die, many
2) Aptina like capacity switch to reduce noise @ higher gains... may be even they take if further and make it 3 capacitors to have 2 stage vs 2 capacitors 1 stage
4) BSI
4) stacked design with RAM right behind the sensor chip die

may be Sony will use (or license) DFD from Panasonic and make combined PDAF on sensor with DFD to approach PDAF off sensor speed more than 6300/A7RII can...

Not really. Above the D750/5D3 level, they seem to diverge into specialty bodies. The 5Ds and 1Dx are badly handicapped when used in each other's roles. So are the D4s and D810. The 'speed' bodies are more expensive (after all, you'll sell gear for as much as a customer is willing to pay, and news/sports publishers are willing to pay a lot) but hardly more capable overall.

It would make little sense for Sony to target the 1Dx2 and D5, when it would take a significant advantage over the competition for Canon and Nikon action shooters to replace all their lenses and other gear to jump ship. Sony knows that its strength is in the sensor - much better to target the D810, 5Ds and 5D4, with a camera that matches or beats the general-purpose pro bodies in AF and beats it in sensor quality (dedicated S and R versions would help in this regard). The action cameras can wait for the next round, once there is a large critical mass of Sony-using pro shooters using E-mount lenses. It would then be much easier to get action shooters to jump ship, with a large number of E-mount lenses out there and Sony by then being a more-or-less equal competitor with Canon and Nikon.
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Bo Dez

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 08:42:31 pm »

The word "bombshell" was used to describe it. 20-24 is not a bombshell.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 09:26:52 pm »

Not really. Above the D750/5D3 level, they seem to diverge into specialty bodies. The 5Ds and 1Dx are badly handicapped when used in each other's roles. So are the D4s and D810.

not really : 1Dx* and D* are the top lines (yes, the price is one of the features that make them the top lines), __below them__ are 5D*/D8** (yes, the price put them below, not to mention bodies), below them the rest... Sony 12mp FF and 42mp FF are the newest sensors... between them the gap, because 24mp is OLD...  some people want to bet on 50-60-70-80mp sensor, I 'd rather bet on a new 20-24mp replacement for the one in A7/A7II and Sony /dSLMs in general/ really needs to try to challenge dSLRs in the areas where 1Dx*/D* are used... not /as a top priority/ in the areas where 5D* or D8** are used - because high mp is not an issue for dSLM... fast AF and fast AF in the low light - that is where the challenge is... you might also mention OVF vs EVF, but it is easier to do than to compete vs off sensor PDAF
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 09:33:24 pm by AlterEgo »
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 09:37:59 pm »

not really : 1Dx* and D* are the top lines (yes, the price is one of the features that make them the top lines), __below them__ are 5D*/D8** (yes, the price put them below, not to mention bodies), below them the rest...

Try replacing one with the other. It doesn't work. The 5Ds does a poor job with fast action, unless you specifically need the ability to crop. The 1Dx is useless if you need the resolution.

You can't call one a less-professional camera than the other on the basis of price, or on the basis of an inbuilt grip (which is just as often a liability as an asset). Each is geared towards a single purpose, unlike the lower lines. The 1Dx/D4 happen to contain a few features which optimise them for action photography (longer shutter life, burst length, etc., since you're shooting so many frames per second), which are unnecessary on a slower camera. The 5Ds/D810 contain other features optimising them for high detail photography (greater DR, better colour accuracy, resolution etc.) which are less necessary on the action body.
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dwswager

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 09:49:39 pm »

Try replacing one with the other. It doesn't work. The 5Ds does a poor job with fast action, unless you specifically need the ability to crop. The 1Dx is useless if you need the resolution.

You can't call one a less-professional camera than the other on the basis of price, or on the basis of an inbuilt grip (which is just as often a liability as an asset). Each is geared towards a single purpose, unlike the lower lines. The 1Dx/D4 happen to contain a few features which optimise them for action photography (longer shutter life, burst length, etc., since you're shooting so many frames per second), which are unnecessary on a slower camera. The 5Ds/D810 contain other features optimising them for high detail photography (greater DR, better colour accuracy, resolution etc.) which are less necessary on the action body.

The D810 shoots 6fps in 1.2x crop mode and supposeding with the battery grip gets to 7fps.  That is more than fast enough for action if you know how to use it.  It certainly isn't the primary focus of the camera and wouldn't be the one you would select for that duty, but it makes the D810, with it's other features, the best general purpose DSLR on the planet...at the moment.

What makes the D4 or D5 a "D" camera is a combination of it's features, speed, image quality and above all, reliability.  Drop it and pick it up and it just works. 
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 10:58:42 pm »

The D810 shoots 6fps in 1.2x crop mode and supposeding with the battery grip gets to 7fps.  That is more than fast enough for action if you know how to use it.  It certainly isn't the primary focus of the camera and wouldn't be the one you would select for that duty, but it makes the D810, with it's other features, the best general purpose DSLR on the planet...at the moment.

What makes the D4 or D5 a "D" camera is a combination of it's features, speed, image quality and above all, reliability.  Drop it and pick it up and it just works.

The heavy build is just as much a liability as an asset, depending on what environment you're using it in. So is the inbuilt grip. The shutter still gives you fewer seconds of continuous shooting than the 5Ds's shutter (owing to the higher frame rate), plus you're more likely to shoot bursts, so it's more a necessity of fast shooting than a feature. The same applies to the 5Ds's unique features - the stronger colour filter, for instance, is just as much a liability as an asset, but is geared towards lower-ISO image quality rather than super-high ISO noise performance.

It's like the distinction between an EOS-1 and an EOS-1v. Both are equally top-of-the-line. But they're built differently, for different purposes.
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 12:30:38 am »

The word "bombshell" was used to describe it. 20-24 is not a bombshell.

Nor is unlimited RAW burst - after all, how many seconds do you need to really keep shooting stills for? And video cameras already do unlimited burst anyway.

The reason I'm suspecting a high-MP sensor before a high-FPS body is commercial rather than technological. Getting action shooters to switch to Sony mirrorless would be a big ask, even if the AF was better than that of the 1Dx2 or D5. Not only are the current-generation Canon and Nikon bodies already more than good for action (would a new body really get you any more shots, if you don't particularly care about resolution?) but there is a huge body of Canon/Nikon supertelephotos currently in circulation which most people would be loathe to prematurely ditch, even if Sony released its own competitively-priced E-mount supertelephotos (which it currently lacks). It just wouldn't make sense to target the 1Dx2/D5 with the first-generation A9 - no matter how good the body is, there's no way it could be commercially successful. Action photographers are tied to their Canon/Nikon bodies by tens of thousands of dollars worth of glass, and resolution/detail-oriented photographers won't want a low-resolution sensor.

Far better to target the D810 (and, by extension, the 5Ds and 5D4). Unlike with action cameras, there is a big premium here on the sensor, which is Sony's strength and Canon's weakness, and the addition of a competitive AF module, dual cards and other pro-oriented features will give them a good shot at winning over those who didn't buy the A7r owing to these issues. In other words, compete for the bulk of the pro crowd - product, fashion, wedding, architecture, landscape and many other photographers - with a compelling product and lens lineup that delivers medium-format image quality while retaining SLR-level AF and usability, building up market share and credibility, and leave Canon/Nikon with the high-speed action niche until the next round, rather than targeting the niche that is already Canon's strong point and not offering anything compelling for the bulk of shooters.
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Bo Dez

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 06:48:12 am »

Nor is unlimited RAW burst - after all, how many seconds do you need to really keep shooting stills for? And video cameras already do unlimited burst anyway.

The reason I'm suspecting a high-MP sensor before a high-FPS body is commercial rather than technological. Getting action shooters to switch to Sony mirrorless would be a big ask, even if the AF was better than that of the 1Dx2 or D5. Not only are the current-generation Canon and Nikon bodies already more than good for action (would a new body really get you any more shots, if you don't particularly care about resolution?) but there is a huge body of Canon/Nikon supertelephotos currently in circulation which most people would be loathe to prematurely ditch, even if Sony released its own competitively-priced E-mount supertelephotos (which it currently lacks). It just wouldn't make sense to target the 1Dx2/D5 with the first-generation A9 - no matter how good the body is, there's no way it could be commercially successful. Action photographers are tied to their Canon/Nikon bodies by tens of thousands of dollars worth of glass, and resolution/detail-oriented photographers won't want a low-resolution sensor.

Far better to target the D810 (and, by extension, the 5Ds and 5D4). Unlike with action cameras, there is a big premium here on the sensor, which is Sony's strength and Canon's weakness, and the addition of a competitive AF module, dual cards and other pro-oriented features will give them a good shot at winning over those who didn't buy the A7r owing to these issues. In other words, compete for the bulk of the pro crowd - product, fashion, wedding, architecture, landscape and many other photographers - with a compelling product and lens lineup that delivers medium-format image quality while retaining SLR-level AF and usability, building up market share and credibility, and leave Canon/Nikon with the high-speed action niche until the next round, rather than targeting the niche that is already Canon's strong point and not offering anything compelling for the bulk of shooters.

Yes good points. I think the unlimited burst could give hint of 8K video which is 33MP. So it could either be a 33-36MP sensor, or scale down from a higher res sensor, in a way similar to the a7r II.
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dwswager

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2016, 09:49:50 am »

The heavy build is just as much a liability as an asset, depending on what environment you're using it in. So is the inbuilt grip. The shutter still gives you fewer seconds of continuous shooting than the 5Ds's shutter (owing to the higher frame rate), plus you're more likely to shoot bursts, so it's more a necessity of fast shooting than a feature. The same applies to the 5Ds's unique features - the stronger colour filter, for instance, is just as much a liability as an asset, but is geared towards lower-ISO image quality rather than super-high ISO noise performance.

It's like the distinction between an EOS-1 and an EOS-1v. Both are equally top-of-the-line. But they're built differently, for different purposes.

In a bizarre way, you made my point.  Yes, with durability and reliability come weight, size and cost.  But those are not liabilities, they are trade offs.   To say I want a D5 in a D750 body is to not really want a D5.  It is in large measure the durability and reliability that one is purchasing, among the other features.  One might say I want the features of the D5 in a smaller, lighter body and we can argue on how much can be stuffed into that smaller, lighter body, but when you drop it and it breaks, you understand it is not a D5.  Or one might say I want the durability and reliability of the D5 in a smaller body, and that is fine as long as you understand a loss of functionality comes with that.

We now have essentially unlimited RAW burst.  The D500 for example can shoot 20s at 10fps in RAW.  If you need more than 20s of burst you are either in a shooting circumstance that is infinitesimally small and outside any design criteria or you are just a crappy action photographer.  And the small penalty going from 14bit to 12bit would be worth paying if you really, really need more duration.  Bottom line is processing capability and pipeline size.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 11:08:47 am »

Try replacing one with the other. It doesn't work. The 5Ds does a poor job with fast action, unless you specifically need the ability to crop. The 1Dx is useless if you need the resolution.

it is still does not alter the very simple fact : 1DxII and D5 are the 'top' lines, not 5Ds or D810 ...

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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 11:12:13 am »

The word "bombshell" was used to describe it. 20-24 is not a bombshell.

why do you think "bombshell" is related to megapixels ? in dSLM world a bombshell is something that can outdo dSLRs... megapixels are not that... AF is... or may be a way better EVF... but I 'd bet on AF and that requires still less MP (bigger sensels - those help with PDAF on sensor sensivity in the low light and less of those for faster readouts)... less MP still help with faster working EVF because even when you do not (or can avoid) readout of every line you still readout every sensel in the line to feed EVF (and CDAF)... and less MP will help to truly unlimited burst @ full resolution too
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chez

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 02:26:10 pm »

it is still does not alter the very simple fact : 1DxII and D5 are the 'top' lines, not 5Ds or D810 ...

What does top lines mean? They sure are not the top lines for landscape photographers.
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AreBee

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 03:44:44 pm »

chez,

Quote
What does top lines mean?

With respect to Nikon, single numeral nomenclature.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2016, 04:04:14 pm »

What does top lines mean? They sure are not the top lines for landscape photographers.
so that you can understand easier.... a consumer level D7200 has 24mp and D5 has 20mp
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 06:47:23 pm »

it is still does not alter the very simple fact : 1DxII and D5 are the 'top' lines, not 5Ds or D810 ...

Only because you say so. And because of a tendency for fast action photographers to denigrate any non-action or slower-action work as 'amateur'.

Being more expensive doesn't make a camera top-of-the-line. Capability and functionality do. And these cameras are all equally-capable, but in different areas. That's why Canon and Nikon recognise them all on their respective professional support programs. Some capabilities are just more expensive to build in.
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 06:55:29 pm »

so that you can understand easier.... a consumer level D7200 has 24mp and D5 has 20mp

One of them is also full-frame, has a full-fledged AF system, has dual cards. That's a huge mismatch in capabilities. The D5 can do almost everything the D7200 can, better than the D7200 itself, the only exception being focal-length limited shooting with supertelephotos.

Anyway, what does any of this have to do with the likely specs of the A9? It would be stupid for Sony to go after the action photographers, with their requirements for fast, long lenses and lag-free EVFs, before even building strong base of support among general photographers who can take advantage of Sony's strengths (sensor) but still need a competitive AF sstem. At the moment, all they have in the bag is non-action shooters, for whom the sensor is everything.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 07:28:06 pm »

In my view there is about 0.1% chance of the a9 not featuring a high res sensor.

Key people in Sony see themselves as being in a different league in terms of sensors design compared to Canon, there is just no way they will stay behind long from a resolution standpoint.

My guess is that Nikon had a strong say in the specs and I would vote for a 72mp resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard

AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 07:47:11 pm »

One of them is also full-frame, has a full-fledged AF system, has dual cards.

the point is that number of MP does not make a camera top model line or on par with a top model line... that's why 1DxII is top model line and 5Ds/r is a level below... just like D5 is top model line and D810 is a level below
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