Sony A9 - SonyAlphaRumors (SR5) information

[chez]

the point is that number of MP does not make a camera top model line or on par with a top model line... that's why 1DxII is top model line and 5Ds/r is a level below... just like D5 is top model line and D810 is a level below

So I guess from your standpoint...price determines the top model. So if Canon came out with a $10,000 P&S, it will be the king of the hill?

Can you please elaborate your view of what constitutes the top model.

[shadowblade]

the point is that number of MP does not make a camera top model line or on par with a top model line... that's why 1DxII is top model line and 5Ds/r is a level below... just like D5 is top model line and D810 is a level below

I never said anything about megapixel count alone making for a top-tier model. It's the sum total of features.

The D810 and 5Ds have all the features and fulfil the same objectives as the earlier 1Ds3 and D3x, which were undebatably top-tier bodies. They also have the same rock-solid build quality of previous top-tier bodies like the EOS-1 and EOS-1N. That they didn't go with the excessive armour of the EOS-1v and the 1D series is a design feature rather than a flaw that drops them down the food chain, unless you would also say that pre-1v bodies were also not top-of-the-line models. In a sense, the D810 and 5Ds are direct successors of the D3x and 1Ds3, in a way that the 1Dx and D4 are not - neither of the latter two bodies are suited to the same roles that the D3x and 1Ds3 fulfilled, whereas the D810 and 5Ds fit them perfectly. It's as if Nikon and Canon realised that the bulk, inbuilt grip and armour which made the 1D3 and D3/D3s form factor so good for action photographers and photojournalists gave nothing useful to the detail-oriented, tripod-mounted and studio photographers while being 50% heavier and a lot bigger, and changed to a lighter build more suited to the application for the next generation.

Put it this way - if the D810 had sold for $6k and the D4 for $4k, with the features and form being exactly the same, would you still be arguing that the D4 is the top-tier system and not the now-pricier D810? If so, why?

But can we please not get sidetracked on this? What constitutes or does not constitute a top-tier body has nothing to do with the subject at hand - that is, the likely features of the A9.

[shadowblade]

In my view there is about 0.1% chance of the a9 not featuring a high res sensor.

Key people in Sony see themselves as being in a different league in terms of sensors design compared to Canon, there is just no way they will stay behind long from a resolution standpoint.

My guess is that Nikon had a strong say in the specs and I would vote for a 72mp resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard

That would mean either a ridiculously fast card, or slow fps. If it's limited to 5fps or so, what do you think would meaningfully set it apart from the A7r2 (or future A7r3 with the new hi-res sensor) for those who would use such a camera (think D810 and 5Ds audience)?

Why would Nikon have a say on what Sony develops? Sony were going to develop a 36MP sensor back in 2012 anyway. That Nikon also bought it doesn't change much - if they wanted a hi-res sensor, there wasn't (and still isn't) much choice. Nikon sales gave Sony a bit of extra cash; the D800/D810 pretty much established Nikon as the go-to brand for those with high resolution requirements, stealing the show that had been dominated by Canon with the 1Ds, 1Ds2, 1Ds3 and 5D2. Nikon is reliant on Sony, not the other way round.

[BernardLanguillier]

Another very important question would be, why do some think that "bombshell" is referring to a top model (the top model whose definition nobody agrees about)?

What if it meant:
- 8k
- full modularity with the ability to upgrade the sensor/...
- a super high res EVF with see through clothes ability
- raw histogram
- it can self heal after a drop thanks to the usage of liquid metal
- it runs iOS and comes pre-equipped with the ability to apply automatically PS actions based on an automated analysis of image content (image downsizing,...)
- it ships with high performance EOS/F mount adapters
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Why would Nikon have a say on what Sony develops? Sony were going to develop a 36MP sensor back in 2012 anyway. That Nikon also bought it doesn't change much - if they wanted a hi-res sensor, there wasn't (and still isn't) much choice. Nikon sales gave Sony a bit of extra cash; the D800/D810 pretty much established Nikon as the go-to brand for those with high resolution requirements, stealing the show that had been dominated by Canon with the 1Ds, 1Ds2, 1Ds3 and 5D2. Nikon is reliant on Sony, not the other way round.

You have never worked extensively with Japanese companies have you?

Nikon has generated for many years the vast majority of Sony DSLRs sensors sales. Sony would most probably not have invested in the DSLR version of the Exmor technology had Nikon not been there to commit a very large volume of sensors.

The industrial truth is that the 2 companies are closely interdependants partners with a very long history, and that matters in Japan.

So my view is that Sony would probably not develop a new high res sensor if it didn't meet Nikon's needs.

Cheers,
Bernard

[shadowblade]

You have never worked extensively with Japanese companies have you?

Nikon has generated for many years the vast majority of Sony DSLRs sales. Sony would most probably not have invested in the DSLR version of the Exmor technology had Nikon not been there to commit a very large volume of sensors.

The industrial truth is that the 2 companies are closely interdependants partners with a very long history, and that matters in Japan.

So my view is that Sony would probably not develop a new high res sensor if it didn't meet Nikon's needs.

Cheers,
Bernard

They developed a 51MP, then a 100MP MF sensor. They developed a 42MP full-frame sensor, so far used only by Sony themselves.

At the same time, Nikon also sources its sensors from companies other than just Sony.

[shadowblade]

Another very important question would be, why do some think that "bombshell" is referring to a top model (the top model whose definition nobody agrees about)?

What if it meant:
- 8k
- full modularity with the ability to upgrade the sensor/...
- a super high res EVF with see through clothes ability
- raw histogram
- it can self heal after a drop thanks to the usage of liquid metal
- it runs iOS and comes pre-equipped with the ability to apply automatically PS actions based on an automated analysis of image content (image downsizing,...)
- it ships with high performance EOS/F mount adapters
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

Almost by definition, the A9 would be Sony's top model, given that it would clearly be above the A7 line, and they haven't done anything with full-frame A-mount.

Whether it's a top model that competes with the D5/1Dx2 or the D810/5Ds is another question.

[BernardLanguillier]

They developed a 51MP, then a 100MP MF sensor. They developed a 42MP full-frame sensor, so far used only by Sony themselves.

At the same time, Nikon also sources its sensors from companies other than just Sony.

I'll gladly admit I was wrong if the D900 and A9 come with different sensors.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Almost by definition, the A9 would be Sony's top model, given that it would clearly be above the A7 line, and they haven't done anything with full-frame A-mount.

Whether it's a top model that competes with the D5/1Dx2 or the D810/5Ds is another question.

My point being that the axis of speed and resolution may not be the only 2 that could justify a top model positioning.

What if bombshell referred to a redefinition of market segments?

Cheers,
Bernard

[shadowblade]

My point being that the axis of speed and resolution may not be the only 2 that could justify a top model positioning.

What if bombshell referred to a redefinition of market segments?

Cheers,
Bernard

There was no mention of a 'bombshell' announcement by Sony. Merely that the new body would have unlimited RAW burst and dual cards. It was the author - not Sony - who considered that news a 'bomb'.

There are only a few market segments anyway, defined by what people shoot. You buy equipment based on what you need it to be able to do; required capabilities are pretty much defined by what you shoot. It would be incredibly stupid to try to redefine 'market segments' by making a new camera that, for instance, had some but not all features for action, some but not all features for studio/landscape work and some features for video without being optimised for it, then expect it to sell in large numbers to some executive-imagined new category of photographers who happened to require a camera with just that mix of capabilities.

[dwswager]

Another very important question would be, why do some think that "bombshell" is referring to a top model (the top model whose definition nobody agrees about)?

What if it meant:
- 8k
- full modularity with the ability to upgrade the sensor/...
- a super high res EVF with see through clothes ability
- raw histogram
- it can self heal after a drop thanks to the usage of liquid metal
- it runs iOS and comes pre-equipped with the ability to apply automatically PS actions based on an automated analysis of image content (image downsizing,...)
- it ships with high performance EOS/F mount adapters
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree here in theory.  Above the 24MP mark, the need/desire for high MP count declines exponentially with increasing MP count.  What is the market size for a 100MP sensored Sony A9?  Don't know.

Bombshell to me would be things like:

Real increase in processing power and data pipeline
RAW Histograms
Automatic ETTR Metering
Automated in camera Focus and Exposure stacking computation
Real Shooting Banks (saved menu selectable, starting points)

[shadowblade]

I agree here in theory.  Above the 24MP mark, the need/desire for high MP count declines exponentially with increasing MP count.  What is the market size for a 100MP sensored Sony A9?  Don't know.

Bombshell to me would be things like:

Real increase in processing power and data pipeline
RAW Histograms
Automatic ETTR Metering
Automated in camera Focus and Exposure stacking computation
Real Shooting Banks (saved menu selectable, starting points)

Sony never once mentioned a 'bombshell'. The writer of the article described unlimited RAW burst and dual cards as a bombshell. I think people are putting too much stock in that word, given that it didn't even come from Sony.

I'd welcome as many megapixels as possible. I shoot highly-detailed scenes from a tripod through sharp lenses which outresolve even the 42MP sensor - the more detail, the better. If
they include a pixel binning option, those who prefer smaller files don't lose out either.

No doubt the A9 will have increased processing speed and power, for faster AF and less viewfinder lag, otherwise it may as well be an A7r3. Not sure about the rest, though. RAW histograms and automatic ETTR is essentially a firmware thing. I wish Magic Lantern worked with Sony bodies - their EVF-based composition gives a lot more scope for electronic optimisation than Canon/Nikon's OVF-based composition.

[Christopher]

I love to guess and it will be a 72MP sensor and it will be in the D900/850 as well.

And the reason why Nikon is not using the new 42MP sensor is, exactly because they are already working on the 72MP sensor with Sony.

That is how companies work in Japan. As it was said. The D800 made all these new cameras possible in the sense Sony had someone who bought a ton of sensors.


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu

[Bo Dez]

the point is that number of MP does not make a camera top model line or on par with a top model line... that's why 1DxII is top model line and 5Ds/r is a level below... just like D5 is top model line and D810 is a level below

No it just means that particular camera is marketed at that particular feature set, mostly sports, PJ where that sort of burst rate is needed with high ISO is needed. Studio pros aren't using these camaeras as much as the 5DS R and D810, cameras which are fast becoming the standard in these sectors of the industry i ie. Peter Lindeberg, Glen Luchford, Terry Richardson, Jeurgen Teller etc etc etc.

also, Canon and Nikon have only been able to create 20ish MP for that sort of camera, with that sort of frame rate and high ISO - don't think for one moment if they couldn't create a higher res with high ISO, something that Sony seems quite capable of, they wouldn't too.

[Bo Dez]

My guess is 72MP sensor with 8K motion.

I'm happy to be wrong on this.

[shadowblade]

also, Canon and Nikon have only been able to create 20ish MP for that sort of camera, with that sort of frame rate and high ISO - don't think for one moment if they couldn't create a higher res with high ISO, something that Sony seems quite capable of, they wouldn't too.

I'd say that it's the bandwidth more than the sensor, at least in Nikon's case. Nikon, at least, has access to a great 36MP sensor; Canon's best low-light sensor, up till now, is probably the 20MP 6D sensor (although the 1Dx2 should be much better on this front, given the on-chip ADC).

That said, I agree that, if they were able to make a hi-res body capable of shooting at 10-15fps, they would. Wildlife photographers and those shooting field sports benefit greatly from higher pixel density (so much so that a significant number use crop bodies in addition to full-frame, or shoot with the D810 or 5Ds and sacrifice frame rate), and these are a significant proportion of action photographers. Also, 8k video requires it - at minimum, you'd be shooting 33MP at 25fps, and a camera aimed at producing true 8k video output rather than editing for 4k would probably shoot at an even higher speed and resolution. So, either way, hi-res action bodies are coming.

[NancyP]

Let me point out that sports and wildlife photographers are the least likely users of mirrorless. EVF lag is the main issue, along with really fast really robust AF with supertelephotos. Actual resolution is less important - a great shot at 6 MP is still a great shot for 99% of sports uses. With wildlife there is some cropping, so more resolution is good, up to a point. A large percentage of wildlife and birds are active at dawn and dusk, so there is some point at which noise is an issue when shooting with shutter speeds upwards of 1/1000 sec.

[shadowblade]

Let me point out that sports and wildlife photographers are the least likely users of mirrorless. EVF lag is the main issue, along with really fast really robust AF with supertelephotos. Actual resolution is less important - a great shot at 6 MP is still a great shot for 99% of sports uses. With wildlife there is some cropping, so more resolution is good, up to a point.

6MP isn't even 4k video. With 8k video, you'll be getting at least 33MP, likely more. If a stills action camera can't capture at least as much detail as a frame grab from a video camera, then there's little point to the stills camera. As for wildlife, there's a reason many wildlife shooters use the D810 or 5Ds instead of a dedicated action body, or use their 7D2 backup body as much as their 1Dx.

We still haven't seen what a full-featured Sony AF system can do. The A7rII and A6300 do very well with Sony lenses (seems about the same as the 5D3 with Canon lenses), but these are miniature cameras with limited processing power and limited battery power.

EVF lag is the big issue, although the larger battery and greater processing power of an A9 should allow it to greatly cut down on the lag issues that plague smaller mirrorless cameras. The other option is to treat it like a video camera when shooting sports - pan and focus like when shooting video, only triggering the actual burst at key moments. Even the slowest EVF lag is faster than human reaction time anyway. It would require a different shooting technique from that which action stills photographers are used to, though.

A large percentage of wildlife and birds are active at dawn and dusk, so there is some point at which noise is an issue when shooting with shutter speeds upwards of 1/1000 sec.

Of course, it's the overall noise level that matters, not whether the image is divided in to 20 million or 80 million pixels. The higher-resolution sensor will give you more spatial detail and the same noise level. The tradeoff is in frame rate, not whole-image noise. If the bottleneck is in the card write speed rather than the capture rate, you can even sacrifice resolution for frame rate through pixel binning, without losing effective sensor area.

[hjulenissen]

6MP isn't even 4k video. With 8k video, you'll be getting at least 33MP, likely more. If a stills action camera can't capture at least as much detail as a frame grab from a video camera, then there's little point to the stills camera.
...

If the stills camera is able to better focus its 6MP and better freeze motion by using a 1/1000 s shutter, then I'd suggest that it is still potentially valuable as an action camera.

That said, MP seems to be cheap these days. Manufacturers can offers lots of them in a nice package with low noise, sufficient battery life, reasonable frame rates. So why strive for less?

-h

[hjulenissen]

What are the highest sustained read bandwidths of cutting edge memory cards? Say that Sony release an "A9" featuring the on-sensor processing and memory of the RX-100M4. They would still (eventually) have to dump the buffer to memory card.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash#CFast
CFast seemed tp allow 600MB/s in 2011. That is:
600*1e6*8/(12e6*10) = 40fps@12MP 10bpp
600*1e6*8/(24e6*14) = 14.3fps@24MP 14bpp
600*1e6*8/(72e6*14) = 4.8fps@72MP 14bpp

There is of course the possibility of using a video codec for 50:1 or more lossy compression. Or using 2 or more memory cards interleaved. Or using a proprietary flash standard (Sony seems to be fond of that). If the camera included, say, 32 GB of built-in memory that could be used for this purpose, I guess that many would be satisfied.

-h