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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 76941 times)

Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #240 on: April 22, 2016, 05:52:37 am »

Basically, forums are dead. At least, if I believe my children, they are not what young users do on the Internet these days.

Agree, I'm a dinosaur when I text one of mine and their e-mail accounts, I am an admin, are dead ( and it's not because I'm admin  :) )

Photography related Blogs have moved in a different direction as well, generating clicks ( at whatever cost to content quality and accuracy) and ad revenue, although that is under threat or diminishing.

We're all doomed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RIgs3eygo

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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #241 on: April 22, 2016, 06:54:01 am »

Agree, I'm a dinosaur when I text one of mine and their e-mail accounts, I am an admin, are dead ( and it's not because I'm admin  :) )

Photography related Blogs have moved in a different direction as well, generating clicks ( at whatever cost to content quality and accuracy) and ad revenue, although that is under threat or diminishing.

We're all doomed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RIgs3eygo

Facebook is also "dead", I am told.

More relevantly, the village where I spend my vacations had 1000 inhabitants and 5 coffee/bars 20 years ago, now it has 2000 inhabitants -overspill from the local town- and 1 cigarette-shop/coffee/bar which closes most weekends, and at 7:30 every evening. The french have found a solution to public drinking.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:08:52 am by eronald »
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AreBee

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #242 on: April 22, 2016, 08:34:03 am »

landscapephoto,

Quote
Basically, forums are dead. At least, if I believe my children, they are not what young users do on the Internet these days.

Have photography forums ever been what "young users do on the Internet"?
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #243 on: April 22, 2016, 10:22:10 am »

Have photography forums ever been what "young users do on the Internet"?

Well 10 years ago I was, well,  10 years younger  ;)
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AreBee

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #244 on: April 22, 2016, 10:39:15 am »

Chris,

Quote
10 years ago I was, well,  10 years younger

Me too.
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #245 on: April 22, 2016, 02:17:46 pm »

landscapephoto,

Have photography forums ever been what "young users do on the Internet"?

Of course you are right, forums never attracted the younger Internet users.

All I wanted to say was that the unpleasantness is not specific of this forum and happens to a stronger degree in other forums and made a large part of the users leave over the past 10 years. I really wonder where they have gone, though.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #246 on: April 22, 2016, 04:29:19 pm »

Of course you are right, forums never attracted the younger Internet users.

All I wanted to say was that the unpleasantness is not specific of this forum and happens to a stronger degree in other forums and made a large part of the users leave over the past 10 years. I really wonder where they have gone, though.


As I know quite a number of the veterans who used to participate even back to the Galbraith days, my impression is that most I know have simply stopped. Participating in online photography forums, that is. At least in any significant way.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #247 on: April 22, 2016, 04:34:59 pm »


As I know quite a number of the veterans who used to participate even back to the Galbraith days, my impression is that most I know have simply stopped. Participating in online photography forums, that is. At least in any significant way.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Tell us more about what you see. Age of buyers, camera usage etc.
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #248 on: April 22, 2016, 04:40:17 pm »

As I know quite a number of the veterans who used to participate even back to the Galbraith days, my impression is that most I know have simply stopped. Participating in online photography forums, that is. At least in any significant way.

So what are they doing now? I mean forums fill a need: it is the only place where one can find like minded individuals to discuss a hobby, when one does not have a collection of friends having the same hobby, which is often the case for MF photography because it is not popular enough.

Where do these people who left go when they want to discuss new MF gear, using MF gear or even more general photographic subjects like post-processing, new trends in aesthetics, etc...?
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #249 on: April 22, 2016, 05:58:01 pm »

IMO it is explainable that many old posters have left... At the "old days" it was different... People where not "upgrading" with the same frequency they are now and what they where trying to do instead was to maximise their skills with what they have... When digital MF (really - dated by the size of the sensors) arrived with the 37x49 sensors (some12 years ago), it was offered to all MF users, no matter what camera they where using... It was natural to attract many people in MF forums as they had to decide on how to turn their systems into digital... Then the MF makers of digital equipment decided to deny them retain their freedom of choice and the traditional habits they have developed over the years and the same makers (to support all this), they developed an "army" of new posters aimed to promote their own policies (what we call fanboys today)...

Old posters (IMO) have left because they can't be heart anymore... There is always a batch of fanboys covering their voice (many times showing no respect at all or by using illogical ...logic) which has turned them off... Just my two cents...
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #250 on: April 22, 2016, 06:05:18 pm »

I'll say one more thing... If something comes up back to the market that will give the opportunity to old posters as to reactivate their older (very capable) equipment (Bronicas, RZs, Rolleis, Contax ...etc), one will be surprised of how liveness will return to MF forums... Especially as it will allow the skills to show back... Just my (other) two cents...
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #251 on: April 22, 2016, 07:33:25 pm »

they don't discuss, they photograph.
professionals who sell their customers a service often don't care about customer or job.
there are some exceptions who come here, but most just get the job done, and go home or party.
i am sure there are some lawyers who care about justice and politicians about the welfare of the citizens, but I think Hillary Clinton cares more about $220K/hour and getting elected :)
and i think most hobbyists have been priced out of MF.

Edmund


So what are they doing now? I mean forums fill a need: it is the only place where one can find like minded individuals to discuss a hobby, when one does not have a collection of friends having the same hobby, which is often the case for MF photography because it is not popular enough.

Where do these people who left go when they want to discuss new MF gear, using MF gear or even more general photographic subjects like post-processing, new trends in aesthetics, etc...?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:59:39 pm by eronald »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #252 on: April 22, 2016, 07:41:15 pm »

So what are they doing now? I mean forums fill a need: it is the only place where one can find like minded individuals to discuss a hobby, when one does not have a collection of friends having the same hobby, which is often the case for MF photography because it is not popular enough.

Where do these people who left go when they want to discuss new MF gear, using MF gear or even more general photographic subjects like post-processing, new trends in aesthetics, etc...?


If any wish to discuss photographic topics, medium format or otherwise, they certainly don't need a forum to do so. They don't need to check into an online forum to "learn". Since they're veterans they have plenty of "like-minded" compatriots and resources they have regular contact with.


Steve Hendrix/CI

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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #253 on: April 22, 2016, 08:00:09 pm »


......professionals who sell their customers a service often don't care about customer or job....


True, but forums are about photographers, not pros... Pro photographers are (like every other job) rare to find and they do care (a lot).... OTOH, one has to define "photography" too, because the way I see it, when I hear a man saying: "I shoot with a Sony FF and an MFDB on an MF platform and 99% of the (printed) images that made to the wall are from the Sony..." I'm not sure that he knows what photography is, or what his criteria are, or what he judges as "quality", or if he knows the use of the equipment he uses.... Especially if  additionally the same man "jumps" in each and every thread even if it is totell people what "multishot" (which he never ever used) capabilities are, or how "pictures of the moon" have been taken, or "how wrong engineers of companies are to not make small pixels"... Never talked about lighting though, or directing a scene, or how to work around photo-graphic tasks...
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NickT

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #254 on: April 22, 2016, 08:38:42 pm »


If any wish to discuss photographic topics, medium format or otherwise, they certainly don't need a forum to do so.

There are places where pros congregate but they tend to keep them private because of the many trolls out there.
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #255 on: April 22, 2016, 10:06:01 pm »

I never participated in a "science" forum when doing that stuff. I published, went to conferences and listened and presented,  even chaired conferences, visited labs, talked a lot to people in person and took a plane to visit guys, but never a forum or newsgroup. I don't know why. Or rather I do know why - for the serious stuff every written word is weighed carefully.

Edmund


Some do, but even privately you have to be careful.

Don't pop open the robe Nick.

IMO

BC
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #256 on: April 23, 2016, 03:04:41 am »

Why is suddenly everyone talking about "professionals"? I am pretty sure I never used that word myself.

Actually, I think that forums are less useful for professionals than for amateurs, tinkerers and artists. These are the people more likely to be practicing photography alone, to lack real-life contacts to discuss their hobby and to look for an online way to compensate. Heck, if I new 10-20 people who had interest in photography around me (for example who visited exhibitions regularly), I certainly would not be active on photography forums myself.

One other thing: it is not only photography. All forums have seen their participation decline in the past 10 years with the consequence that the quality of the discussions decreased markedly. For example, I used to participate in woodworking and metalworking forums at some point. I checked them a few months ago, they are only a shade of their former self.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #257 on: April 23, 2016, 04:26:37 am »

The people I know that are good and are still up and running can take any camera and software and in an hour or so be with it as tight as nuts on a bridge.
IMO

BC

I recently watched, or re-watched saw it first time around, a documentary on David Bailey, it runs over an hour.
Many cameras/formats shown none talked about, all about the image. Here is a photographer who totally has the eye, the image is all whatever the genre and he switches seamlessly. Despite the output editing is easy he says if you get six good shots a year you are doing well ( and he had 14 pages from one shoot in Vogue).
Could you ever see Bailey or someone similar coming on a forum to discuss DR and why he, and you, only need an 810 or why CCD is dead in the water?
Respect to BC for visiting from the deep end to share with those of us splashing about in the shallows. I think elsewhere looking at a sheaf of prints the interviewer says these are art you are an art photographer, he rants about all the prefixes, including pro, I am a photographer that is all. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S678bcdXsag#t=127.097483
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #258 on: April 23, 2016, 05:59:36 am »

I recently watched, or re-watched saw it first time around, a documentary on David Bailey, it runs over an hour.
Many cameras/formats shown none talked about, all about the image. Here is a photographer who totally has the eye, the image is all whatever the genre and he switches seamlessly. Despite the output editing is easy he says if you get six good shots a year you are doing well ( and he had 14 pages from one shoot in Vogue).
Could you ever see Bailey or someone similar coming on a forum to discuss DR and why he, and you, only need an 810 or why CCD is dead in the water?
Respect to BC for visiting from the deep end to share with those of us splashing about in the shallows. I think elsewhere looking at a sheaf of prints the interviewer says these are art you are an art photographer, he rants about all the prefixes, including pro, I am a photographer that is all. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S678bcdXsag#t=127.097483


I know what you're saying but just because back then forums didn't exist and it wasn't mentioned in the documentary that does NOT mean photographers weren't interested in their gear or discussing it at length.
Black and white or color and which film exactly? Small format or large format or large format? Hasselblad or Rollei? I'm pretty sure those questions were still asked but only in smaller groups and not in international forums like this. CCD vs CMOS is quite reminiscent of the slide film vs colour negative discussion (and both CCD and slide film are in decline but still very usable).
Another aspect that many people tend to forget it that back then a lot of photographers didn't develop their photos themselves, especially not when they were high volume fashion photographers, so they simply didn't care. H.C. Bresson was no fashion photographer but he didn't develop or edit his own photos, he had other do that and those people were often shocked by the horrible negatives he provided and worked hours to get a usable print (if that was possible).

These days you're forced to do just about everything yourself if you're a small to medium sized fish in the photography world - and if you're a big fish you can afford to have someone else edit your RAWs - but even then that doesn't mean that you can't or won't be concerned with your equipment. Annie Leibovitz for example has used just about every brand and type of camera and still switches  a lot.

The only thing I noticed about this forum is that people don't really discuss images - at least not in the Medium/Large Format section, that's why I stopped posting them here, it's absolutely useless and there are better forums for that. After all LL was never really focused on discussing images but more interested in reviewing and presenting gear - and that shows in its forum.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #259 on: April 23, 2016, 06:44:06 am »




The only thing I noticed about this forum is that people don't really discuss images - at least not in the Medium/Large Format section, that's why I stopped posting them here, it's absolutely useless and there are better forums for that. After all LL was never really focused on discussing images but more interested in reviewing and presenting gear - and that shows in its forum.

As I said earlier, for people to discuss images, they have first to agree on what photo-graphy is...  I've many times seen nice pictures been presented, but I'm not sure at all they are photo-graphs too...
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