Do I still need Imageprint for B&W printing using a Epson 4900

[rtlonghitano]

I've been using Imageprint on a 13" Epson 2200 printer for B&W printing for years.  I'm going to upgrade to the Epson 4900 and I'm wondering if a RIP is still needed to get neutral B&W prints?

I'm hoping to save money by not upgrading Imageprint to tabloid format.

Thanks,
rob

[Mark D Segal]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I am very satisfied with the B&W prints that I produce from my 4900 using the Epson driver and Lightroom. But beware, I am less beholden to the holy grail of neutrality than are numerous other members of this Forum. Usually I'll add a slight warm or cool tint to my B&Ws to suit the photo. Most of my test print readings for the grayscale on fairly neutral luster papers show deviations from neutral in the range of about 0.20 to 1.5 with most well below 1.0 for both the a* and b* dimensions in L*a*b* space. This is "pretty neutral".

[rtlonghitano]

Thanks Mark.

I'm more interested if the Epson drives still have a color shifts when viewing prints in incandescent and florescent lighting.  Way back when it was a big problem, that's why I went the RIP route.  Haven't tested the current drivers.

rob

[Mark D Segal]

That isn't only about drivers, it's also about inks, paper and profiles, all of which have come a very long way. The best way of answering this question to your own satisfaction is to make some prints using the Epson driver, which is free, and see whether or not they satisfy you under different lighting conditions. But also keep in mind that the colour temperature of the light affects what the print looks like, such that print appearance could vary from one light source to another, because the profiles that contribute to determining the ink mix in making those prints assume a particular illuminant - usually D50.

(edited for a clarification)

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

In my experience the "Pro" level (that is 3800 and higher) Epson printers do a fine job using Epson's "ABW" (Advanced Black and White), which is part of the driver that comes with the printer.

My first digital printer was an Epson 2200, and I eventually gave in and purchased Imageprint because I was never able to get decent prints otherwise.
When my 2200 died, I upgraded to a 3800, which is still going strong (although showing occasional signs of something like Arthritis blended with Altzheimers).
Using ABW I get prints consistently better and more neutral than I eve r got with Imageprint on the 2200, so I have never bothered to upgrade IP.

ABW does allow a good bit of flexibility in adjusting print color (warmer or cooler, etc.) if you ever want that. I prefer straight neutral.

That isn't only about drivers, it's also about inks, paper and profiles, all of which have come a very long way. The best way of answering this question to your own satisfaction is to make some prints using the Epson driver, which is free, and see whether or not they satisfy you under different lighting conditions. But also keep in mind that the colour temperature of the light affects what the print looks like, and could vary from one light source to another, because the profiles that contribute to determining the ink mix in making those prints assume a particular illuminant - usually D50.

All that Mark says is very true and relevant, too.

[Mark D Segal]

Using ABW I get prints consistently better and more neutral than I eve r got with Imageprint on the 2200, so I have never bothered to upgrade IP.

ABW does allow a good bit of flexibility in adjusting print color (warmer or cooler, etc.) if you ever want that. I prefer straight neutral.
All that Mark says is very true and relevant, too.

Thanks Eric.

Actually, and this will come across as heresy to a number of readers, but I must be objective about it - my measured results (from bespoke printer test targets) using the ABW algorithm versus the standard RGB driver do not show any overall superiority of ABW when it comes to neutrality of the grayscale, or print appearance, from the 4900 or the P800. And due to lack of softproofing, one has less control over results with ABW unless using Eric Chan's ABW profiles in a 3800. I don't believe those have been adapted to any other models. So I just use the RGB driver for my B&W work. I can control the outcome rather precisely and I haven't been disappointed by the tonality or the hues.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Thanks Eric.

Actually, and this will come across as heresy to a number of readers, but I must be objective about it - my measured results (from bespoke printer test targets) using the ABW algorithm versus the standard RGB driver do not show any overall superiority of ABW when it comes to neutrality of the grayscale, or print appearance, from the 4900 or the P800. And due to lack of softproofing, one has less control over results with ABW unless using Eric Chan's ABW profiles in a 3800. I don't believe those have been adapted to any other models. So I just use the RGB driver for my B&W work. I can control the outcome rather precisely and I haven't been disappointed by the tonality or the hues.

Mark,

Have you measured Dmax between the ABW driver and standard driver for your 4900?  I get about a 5% greater black point with the ABW driver on the 3880.  Users on MacOS cannot take advantage of soft proofing using "ABW profiles" as the OS does not permit it.  WindowsOS users still can do this.  However Eric is no longer making ABW profiles.  One can use the QTR script tool to make such profiles which are of course printer and paper dependent.  Even using such profiles and the ABW driver it is very difficult to detect differences between prints made this way or using the conventional driver.  There is some print permanency data over on Aardenburg for Hahnemuhle Photorag Ultra Smooth for all of the settings of the ABW driver that I did with input from Mark McCormick-Goodhart.  Although this is a matte finish paper the data should give one a good indication of what happens with various settings of the ABW driver.

Alan

[rtlonghitano]

My first digital printer was an Epson 2200, and I eventually gave in and purchased Imageprint because I was never able to get decent prints otherwise.

I was in the same boat.  I'll just buy the printer and do some testing, worst case I'll upgrade IP.

[Mark D Segal]

Mark,

Have you measured Dmax between the ABW driver and standard driver for your 4900?  I get about a 5% greater black point with the ABW driver on the 3880.  Users on MacOS cannot take advantage of soft proofing using "ABW profiles" as the OS does not permit it.  WindowsOS users still can do this.  However Eric is no longer making ABW profiles.  One can use the QTR script tool to make such profiles which are of course printer and paper dependent.  Even using such profiles and the ABW driver it is very difficult to detect differences between prints made this way or using the conventional driver.  There is some print permanency data over on Aardenburg for Hahnemuhle Photorag Ultra Smooth for all of the settings of the ABW driver that I did with input from Mark McCormick-Goodhart.  Although this is a matte finish paper the data should give one a good indication of what happens with various settings of the ABW driver.

Alan

I don't calculate DMax - but I measure the L* that is the basis of that calculation. The differences of minimum L* values between ABW and non-ABW prints of the same target on the same paper in the same printer (e.g. 4900, P800, Canon Pro-1000) are generally too small to be significant in print appearance. They generally don't exceed an L* value of 1, and are more often less than that.

[Mark D Segal]

I was in the same boat.  I'll just buy the printer and do some testing, worst case I'll upgrade IP.

This is a different talk-show, but before you buy an Epson 4900 - have you considered how often you will be printing with it? Unless you intend to be making prints at a pace no less than every several days, you run the risk of experiencing "apparent clogs" (whether ink delivery or actual clogs) because this is a production printer that is meant to be in fairly continuous operation, when it performs very well. Viable current alternatives to consider, depending on your expected usage pattern, would be the Epson P800 and the Canon Pro-1000. Both of these newer models by the way do exhibit deeper black capability (somewhat lower minimum L*) than the 4900. For example, with the Luster papers I've tested minimum L* tends to range between about 1 and 2 for the newer printers, but often around 4 in the 4900. A difference between 1 and 4 does begin to show when you compare side by side.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Thanks Eric.

Actually, and this will come across as heresy to a number of readers, but I must be objective about it - my measured results (from bespoke printer test targets) using the ABW algorithm versus the standard RGB driver do not show any overall superiority of ABW when it comes to neutrality of the grayscale, or print appearance, from the 4900 or the P800. And due to lack of softproofing, one has less control over results with ABW unless using Eric Chan's ABW profiles in a 3800. I don't believe those have been adapted to any other models. So I just use the RGB driver for my B&W work. I can control the outcome rather precisely and I haven't been disappointed by the tonality or the hues.

And thank you for that, Mark.
Since my elderly 3800 is getting a bit cranky, I think I'll try using the color profiles to see how well they work for me. Up till now I've been relying on Eric Chan's ABW profiles heavily, and the papers I use most are either ones he profiled or ones that seem essentially identical to those.

Eric

P.S. My next printer will be either a P800 or its successor. I bought my 3800 just before the 3880 came out.

[Mark D Segal]

P.S. My next printer will be either a P800 or its successor. I bought my 3800 just before the 3880 came out.

As the P800 just came out last year, I expect there will not be a successor for quite a while, based on the renewal cycle of previous models. The 4900, for example, now in its fifth year will remain, I understand, in the Epson current line-up for at least another year. If you plan to renew over the next several years and you wish to remain within the 17 inch carriage width, your most likely choices would be either the Epson P800 or the Canon Pro-1000, unless a 4900 successor comes out to add to the choices.

[shadowblade]

If you're thinking about the 4900, I'd strongly consider the P800 instead.

Like the 4900, it can use roll paper. The new inks also produce a deeper Dmax for stronger blacks and dark colours, and are longer-lasting due to the improved yellow ink. In addition, it reportedly clogs less. Finally, it costs less.

[rtlonghitano]

This is a different talk-show, but before you buy an Epson 4900 -

Thanks Mark,

I used to have a Epson 4000 replaced that with a 24" 7880 (which I use every day) I never printed B&W with it. I'm Just looking to replace my 2200 with a 17" printer to print B&W

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks Mark,

I used to have a Epson 4000 replaced that with a 24" 7880 (which I use every day) I never printed B&W with it. I'm Just looking to replace my 2200 with a 17" printer to print B&W

In that case I would suggest looking at an Epson P800 or a Canon Pro-1000 before necessarily opting for the 4900.

[rtlonghitano]

If you're thinking about the 4900, I'd strongly consider the P800 instead.

Like the 4900, it can use roll paper. The new inks also produce a deeper Dmax for stronger blacks and dark colours, and are longer-lasting due to the improved yellow ink. In addition, it reportedly clogs less. Finally, it costs less.

Thanks guys,  I'll look more seriously at the P800 too

[rtlonghitano]

In that case I would suggest looking at an Epson P800 or a Canon Pro-1000 before necessarily opting for the 4900.

Thanks for the advice, over the past 6 years I was in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mode and I'll admit I haven't really followed printer advancement too closely during that time.

I've always stuck with Epson. My first printer was the Epson Stylus Color 3000 never tried a different brand.  I was looking at the HP 24" printers before I chose the 7880.  Have the Cannon printers improved over the last 6 years?

[Mark D Segal]

Have the Cannon printers improved over the last 6 years?

Read my recent review of the Canon Pro-1000 on this website. A choice between this and a P800 *may* turn on whether (a) you need roll-holding capability (available for the Epson but not the Canon) and (b) you need a print length longer than 23.4 inches, which is currently the limit on the Canon. An important additional consideration in selecting a printer is the availability of service and supplies within easy reach of where you live. Both printers produce excellent photographs if you can deliver excellent material to them.

[shadowblade]

Thanks Mark,

I used to have a Epson 4000 replaced that with a 24" 7880 (which I use every day) I never printed B&W with it. I'm Just looking to replace my 2200 with a 17" printer to print B&W

If you're only interested in black-and-white, have you considered running Piezography instead? You can run it on any old Epson printer (don't need the latest model), it works out cheaper than running Epson original inks and it gives you better black-and-white than you can get from any OEM inkset.

[Stefan Ohlsson]

Thanks guys,  I'll look more seriously at the P800 too

A 4900 and a P800 is two very different printers. The 4900 is a production printer and would be your best choice if you print several prints every day. If not, I would prefer the P800. It prints a darker black and when I tested the printer for almost two months I didn't have any problems with clogging. I would still prefer ImagePrint if you are doing a lot of B&W prints. When I did prints with ImagePrint and with the ABW option from the same file, the ImagePrint prints gave a better rendition in the shadow areas.

I don't know how the B&W profiles for P800 are made, but for the profiles for 4900 the B&W profiles don't use any of the yellow ink. This will give you a print with better light fastness and much less metameric failure. And I really like the tinting function in IP. I often add a little warm tone in the highlight if I print on a warm paper.