Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21   Go Down

Author Topic: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.  (Read 109409 times)

voidshatter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
    • www.500px.com/voidshatter
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #360 on: January 08, 2016, 03:49:34 am »

Hi,

It looks interesting, at least in my version of RawDigger. The low numbers definitively look to be 14-bit as only each fourth bit contains data. Going up to say 100-200 levels the gaps start to fill in.

I have the latest version of RawDigger, but Phase One cameras above IQ-280 are not officially supported it seems. So it can be that RawDigger would interpret something wrong. Still it is very odd.

A small comment to Doug, it seems that focus is bad on the f/10 image, as the f/14 is far more distinct.

Best regards
Erik

Hi, you will need to use Capture One v9.0.2 or later to convert the 16-bit IIQ file into DNG first. RawDigger v1.2.3 does not support the 16-bit IIQ file.

See my post here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/57312-iq3-100mp-technical-camera-tests-color-cast-mazing-artifact-tiling-issue-dr-etc.html#post676386
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #361 on: January 08, 2016, 05:05:20 am »

RawDigger format reader is based on dcraw. Dcraw didn't even support P65+ and later properly until last year when I personally added support and sent it to Dave Coffin (Dcraw author) which got it integrated into Dcraw, and then it propagated to all software using dcraw in one way or another, including RawDigger.

Dave doesn't prioritize the MFD formats very much an no other of the open source guys either except for, well, me. CCDs especially are a mess as they depend so much on calibration data, that is you get to display an image quickly but to do it right you must reverse engineer and apply the calibration data too. CMOS are not as dependent on calibration data fortunately, but as RawDigger/dcraw seems to read the 16 bit files the 2 extra bits are probably stored as some extension or something.

The raw data is read in the function phase_one_load_raw_c and you can see on this magic line:
      i = (pixel[col] << 2) - ph1.black + cblack[row][col >= ph1.split_col] + rblack[col][row >= ph1.split_row];

that the real data pixel[col] is shifted up two bits from 14 to 16 (the << 2 operator), that is the current decoder can only read 14 bit real data like the format was before (yes also including for the "16 bit" CCDs...).

Someone's got to look into what the format differences in the new 16 bit encoding is and decode that properly and provide that to Dave/Dcraw, then it will end up in RawDigger eventually.

And no, Phase One won't help out. I've of course asked. If I don't do it it will probably stay half-supported for years, just like the P65+. Maybe I'll take a look, but I must say that I really really hate reverse-engineering formats. It's hard coming up with a more frustrating time-wasting experience in the world of programming. The only reason I've done it is that I hate closed camera formats even more.

Hi,

It looks interesting, at least in my version of RawDigger. The low numbers definitively look to be 14-bit as only each fourth bit contains data. Going up to say 100-200 levels the gaps start to fill in.

I have the latest version of RawDigger, but Phase One cameras above IQ-280 are not officially supported it seems. So it can be that RawDigger would interpret something wrong. Still it is very odd.

A small comment to Doug, it seems that focus is bad on the f/10 image, as the f/14 is far more distinct.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 05:08:28 am by torger »
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #362 on: January 08, 2016, 05:27:10 am »

I recently added a Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II to my setup, and I really like its "digital keystone compensation" feature, which lets you correct perspective (both vertical and horizontal) live on the camera screen (or viewfinder) while shooting.

Yes I think this can be the future of wide angle "tech cams", that the camera itself really only shoots center frames with a super-sharp ultrawide and then you do shift composition directly on live view, which is done in software through cropping and keystoning. Maybe within 5 years. If digital backs start supporting third-party "apps" much like mobiles and tablets it may be quicker, and I think app-supporting cameras is going to happen but on the smaller formats first of course.

If you can do it like that directly when you shoot on live view, then the experience will be quite similar to turning knobs and wheels on the tech camera, so I guess I can live with that. At that time there may be built-in automatic fast focus-stacking too so tilt is not necessary.

Personally I don't produce professionally but try to make some sort of photography art, so then the shooting process is not only about end result and production efficiency. The shooting process must feel right. I think I've never been as close to start seriously thinking about shooting film. I'm indeed a software engineer, but when I do photography I want it to be something else than my profession, and when it starts becoming more and more virtual it stops feeling right.
Logged

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #363 on: January 08, 2016, 09:25:08 am »

then it will end up in RawDigger eventually.
RD people got a lot of P1 raw files and it seems looking into that now... at least that is what I read a day before yesterday blog-wise.
Logged

Iliah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 770
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #364 on: January 08, 2016, 09:39:30 am »

> RawDigger format reader is based on dcraw

Actually, on LibRaw, and that is very different thing :)
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #365 on: January 08, 2016, 09:43:25 am »

> RawDigger format reader is based on dcraw

Actually, on LibRaw, and that is very different thing :)

Not really, as the IIQ decoder in libraw is based on dcraw, right? Seems not being a good thing if several people do the same reverse engineering work. Passing it through dcraw is not a great way to collaborate, but as long as Dave does his thing it seems to be the least bad way. I hope RawDigger folks share their format findings with the open source community in some way. My stuff usually ends up in RawTherapee first (which is open source) and then I make a dcraw patch and send it to Dave which he usually rewrites to his very special coding style and removes all comments and then he puts it into the official dcraw release, which gets into LibRaw and other projects that follow dcraw updates.

Anyway, I've made some tests and it seems to be a one liner to fix:

--- dcraw-9.26.c        2015-05-25 04:30:26.000000000 +0200
+++ dcraw-patched.c     2016-01-08 15:34:26.433809733 +0100
@@ -1767,7 +1767,8 @@
        pixel[col] = curve[pixel[col]];
     }
     for (col=0; col < raw_width; col++) {
-      i = (pixel[col] << 2) - ph1.black
+      if (ph1.format != 8) pixel[col] <<= 2;
+      i = pixel[col] - ph1.black
        + cblack[row][col >= ph1.split_col]
        + rblack[col][row >= ph1.split_row];
       if (i > 0) RAW(row,col) = i;
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 09:51:46 am by torger »
Logged

Iliah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 770
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #366 on: January 08, 2016, 10:11:37 am »

> Not really, as the IIQ decoder in libraw is based on dcraw, right?

In the same sense computers are based on silicon, yes, it is :)

RawDigger version 1.2.4.437 supports both IQ3 100MPix formats, 14-bit and 16-bit; available from our site at http://www.rawdigger.com/download
List of supported cameras is available at http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/cameralist
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #367 on: January 08, 2016, 10:31:39 am »

> Not really, as the IIQ decoder in libraw is based on dcraw, right?

In the same sense computers are based on silicon, yes, it is :)

...or in the same sense that libraw actually imports dcraw.c and rawspeed (just see their changelog) plus makes some own development. I'm sure IIQ Dalsa calibration data code (my code) came in that way (just checked, it's in internal/dcraw_common.cpp). But anyway it doesn't matter for this discussion. Great that RawDigger has IQ3 100 support now, I hope it's contributed upstream.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 10:49:22 am by torger »
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #368 on: January 08, 2016, 01:40:43 pm »

Just committed 16 bit support to RawTherapee too so it can now open the IQ3 100MP files, assuming you build from source. The color is just a plain matrix now though.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #369 on: January 09, 2016, 12:12:32 am »

Thanks for info!

Raw digger is now fixed for IQ3 100MP!

Thanks for info, stuff from you is always good!

Best regards
Erik

Hi, you will need to use Capture One v9.0.2 or later to convert the 16-bit IIQ file into DNG first. RawDigger v1.2.3 does not support the 16-bit IIQ file.

See my post here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/57312-iq3-100mp-technical-camera-tests-color-cast-mazing-artifact-tiling-issue-dr-etc.html#post676386
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #370 on: January 09, 2016, 12:52:02 am »

Is there going to be a firmware update, or a hardware update of the IQ250C for 16 bits?

Edmund

Thanks for info!

Raw digger is now fixed for IQ3 100MP!

Thanks for info, stuff from you is always good!

Best regards
Erik
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

wallpaperviking

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #371 on: January 09, 2016, 12:58:06 am »

Hope this is not too far off topic (and has not already been mentioned) but was just wondering if this sensor uses the same Sony coverglass that is found in the A7RII?

Also, I know that everyone seems most keen to know how the tech wides work on this back but I would be really interested for Alpa to showcase some examples with either the Hasselblad H lenses or Contax 645 with their new shift adapter...

Due to both of the above designs, a lot of the issues being discussed here (and most going right over my head to be honest) would be less of an issue right?  As somebody who does not own a MFDB or any tech lenses, I was amazed to see the original files (before LCC correction) of those samples being displayed by Alpa..

As a newbie, I think using a lens that does not need a LCC correction would be appealing (at a loss of sharpness I am sure)..

Looking forward to all the future test that are sure to come :)

One last question, just wondering how the P45+ handles the discussed issues with tech wides?  Would it be a good one to aim for if I was happy enough with the resolution it offers..  (which is enough by the way).

Thanks a lot for any advice or input!

Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #372 on: January 09, 2016, 03:01:55 am »

Hi,

The issue is not far off topic. I would be pretty sure that Phase One uses the same thickness of cover glass on all sensors. Any vendor would standardise on cover glass thickness as lens designs needs to take this into consideration.

I don't know the thickness of cover glass on the IQ-backs.

Cover glass has nothing to do with colour shifts, the colour shifts are related pixel depth, microlens design, light leaks between pixels.  The only problem cover glass is causing is astigmatism.

Also, cover glass is normally the IR filter. Leica reduced it's thickness to 0.5 mm on the M8 and got a lot of issues with IR contamination.

Best regards
Erik

Hope this is not too far off topic (and has not already been mentioned) but was just wondering if this sensor uses the same Sony coverglass that is found in the A7RII?

Also, I know that everyone seems most keen to know how the tech wides work on this back but I would be really interested for Alpa to showcase some examples with either the Hasselblad H lenses or Contax 645 with their new shift adapter...

Due to both of the above designs, a lot of the issues being discussed here (and most going right over my head to be honest) would be less of an issue right?  As somebody who does not own a MFDB or any tech lenses, I was amazed to see the original files (before LCC correction) of those samples being displayed by Alpa..

As a newbie, I think using a lens that does not need a LCC correction would be appealing (at a loss of sharpness I am sure)..

Looking forward to all the future test that are sure to come :)

One last question, just wondering how the P45+ handles the discussed issues with tech wides?  Would it be a good one to aim for if I was happy enough with the resolution it offers..  (which is enough by the way).

Thanks a lot for any advice or input!
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3265
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #373 on: January 09, 2016, 04:47:17 am »

I'm starting to hear that the high ISO performance of the back may not be as good as IQ250 for example. Has someone made any analysis of this?

I made a quick comparison "by eye" on an ISO3200 shot and then it compared well per pixel with an A7r-II, I'd say the IQ3100 may even be a bit cleaner. This is in RawTherapee without any preprocessing noise reduction magic, that is you see the raw sensor performance.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 05:02:50 am by torger »
Logged

Chris Barrett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 730
    • www.christopherbarrett.net
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #374 on: January 09, 2016, 08:36:00 am »

Looking at shadow recovery on the IQ3100 vs the A7r2, I'd agree the Phase is cleaner.

CB

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #375 on: January 09, 2016, 09:03:54 am »

Great!

Best regards
Erik

Looking at shadow recovery on the IQ3100 vs the A7r2, I'd agree the Phase is cleaner.

CB
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #376 on: January 09, 2016, 10:20:46 am »

Looking at shadow recovery on the IQ3100 vs the A7r2, I'd agree the Phase is cleaner.

CB

Not only that, since the IQ3 has more than double the MP, at equal (very large) print sizes the IQ3 file is gonna look MUCH nicer.
Logged

jsiva

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #377 on: January 09, 2016, 10:29:13 am »

Hope this is not too far off topic (and has not already been mentioned) but was just wondering if this sensor uses the same Sony coverglass that is found in the A7RII?

Also, I know that everyone seems most keen to know how the tech wides work on this back but I would be really interested for Alpa to showcase some examples with either the Hasselblad H lenses or Contax 645 with their new shift adapter...

Due to both of the above designs, a lot of the issues being discussed here (and most going right over my head to be honest) would be less of an issue right?  As somebody who does not own a MFDB or any tech lenses, I was amazed to see the original files (before LCC correction) of those samples being displayed by Alpa..

As a newbie, I think using a lens that does not need a LCC correction would be appealing (at a loss of sharpness I am sure)..

Looking forward to all the future test that are sure to come :)

One last question, just wondering how the P45+ handles the discussed issues with tech wides?  Would it be a good one to aim for if I was happy enough with the resolution it offers..  (which is enough by the way).

Thanks a lot for any advice or input!

1.  I think you'd want to use LCC pretty much all the time.  It corrects things other than color casts like vignetting, dust etc.
2.  The P45+ is a great back for tech cams.  It is close to full frame in size, supports long exposures very well, works with pretty much all lenses (and you can et some great scneider wides cheap for it), It can be had for a bargain these days, and it has nice fat pixels.  Two draw backs are the screen, which is just plain crappy, and FW vs. USB for tethering.  If you come to terms with image review and focussing on the overall system you choose, it is a great back.
3.  rodenstock, on specs on their website is stating that their lenses account for a 2mm thick sensor glass.  Given that Phase/Leaf backs are likely the most common on tech cams, i'd think this is close to the thickness of the sensor glass.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #378 on: January 09, 2016, 12:05:26 pm »

Hi Ken,

Yes of course, no one in full use of their faculties would consider anything else. There is no substitue for square inches. If you take a Sony sensor and make it 2.5 times larger it will deliver 2.5 times the pixels of similar quality.

But, the A7rII having the same size of pixels is a good tool to estimate performance of the larger sensor. As both pixels are coming from same factory, same designers and probably a similar process. The A7rII sensor is backside illuminated, which may lead to somewhat reduced DR (something like 1/2 EV), but may have other benefits.

My first impression from the first images Doug has posted were not so great, it is nice to hear that Kevin's and Chris's test shot prove me wrong. The images from Copenhagen had very bright sky. They were properly exposed to the right, according an older version of RawDigger but mid tones needed pushing a lot, and I observed some ugly colour noise, which I have not expected. But I guess I was a bit to demanding, or some bug in Capture One. Anyway good that Chris gets results he is happy with.

What I have seen before is that Pentax and Nikon pull a bit more performance out of the Sony sensors than Sony them selves. It may even be that Phase One needs that extra bit. Nikon D810 is very close to 14 bits in DR, but the Sony A7rII is a bit behind, it is even a bit behind the A7r, in that regard.

Best regards
Erik

Not only that, since the IQ3 has more than double the MP, at equal (very large) print sizes the IQ3 file is gonna look MUCH nicer.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #379 on: January 09, 2016, 12:29:34 pm »

Yes, it seems the D810 gets the most DR out of the sony 35mm sensor.

Low iso performance is definitely a priority on a back like the IQ3 100MP while the A7RII being a much more consumer oriented product is tuned more for high performance across the whole iso range with obvious bumps (compared to the D810) in performance at several iso settings.

I have no clue what each company does on top of what the sensor can deliver from the factory or if some changes are made inside the sensor itself or if its a combination of hardware and programming (on sensor).

I don't think anyone without a signed NDA really knows.

I though Sony improved the depth and DR of the A7RII with the new firmware? and got it to 14bit.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21   Go Up