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Author Topic: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.  (Read 119412 times)

jsiva

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #340 on: January 07, 2016, 11:41:25 am »

We'll have sample images from the 23mm to show in a follow up article soon.  The LLC part of C1 has a small bug in it so waiting fro Phase One to correct that.  We can then do a final process on the 23mm.  Thanks Chris for the great day, as always was fun shooting and chatting with you.

Thanks Kevin, very much looking forward to seeing it.  Cheers!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #341 on: January 07, 2016, 12:22:04 pm »

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing images and observations!

Best regards
Erik




Well, Kevin and I spent yesterday with the new back and my Sony grabbing some interiors of really beautiful spaces.  It wasn't an ideal test, as neither of us had the lenses that you would really want to use with this back for shooting architecture.

I've also had a look at the tech cam tests on GetDPI and was glad to see those.

I'm going to do a write-up over the next few days with images, but wanted to drop my initial thoughts.  The Sony holds up decently against the digital back, decently.  I've always known that the A7r files we're not as pretty but felt that they could be worked in post to get where I needed them.  When you start pulling up shadows, however, The Phase really seems to shine and exhibits less noise.  It also has better color, micro-contrast, DR, and sharpness out of the box.

I don't have any great wides left from my tech cam kit but still had this Rodie apo-sironar digital 45mm kicking around so I used that for both these shots.  I didn't employ any movements, because I didn't feel the lens would hold up to it.

So, you can definitely get the nicest files out of the digi-back.  It is, however, way less convenient to work with and from what I've seen, there will be less shifting available than there was with my IQ260... no matter what lenses you buy.  I'd really love to make this back work for me, but I just don't know if I can live with less movements.  As a 20+ year veteran of professional architectural photography, I'm beginning to feel like my dream system may never exist.

More to come...

IMHO
-CB

Both images on the MF2, Rodie 45mm, f/11, 2s, base settings with 50/50 hilight shadow recovery (just for yucks)
The Phase feels sharper, but focus could have been off a touch on the Sony, so nothing conclusive there.


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torger

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #342 on: January 07, 2016, 01:13:13 pm »

A problem for the tech camera genre is that pixel technology is merging to be the same in 135 and MFD.

Before medium format sensors where in a zone where they could both have a bit higher pixel count and at the same time a larger pixel, and they would also allow themselves to waste some high ISO performance by not having micro lenses.

This allowed medium format sensors to function with lens designs that was impossible on the smaller formats, which is symmetric or weak retrofocus wides, providing a unique feature set, near distortion-free lenses with a large range of movements.

Now with pixel sizes just as small on MFD like on 135, and the same desires regarding ISO performance, the same limitations regarding lens designs is there which means that lenses must be designed in the same way as for the smaller formats.

It's quite obvious that both Rodenstock Digarons and Schneider Digitars are both obsolete in terms of design when it comes to supporting the new MFD king, Sony, but thanks to the extremely good tonality and dynamic range of the Sony some of this over-capacity can be used to do the impossible. Due to subject- and condition-dependent gradual degradations of image quality in shifted areas its hard to quickly get a grip of exactly how these systems perform. I'm myself thrown between hope and despair. It will for sure make images on the wides with quite large shift range, but when does the subtle color degradations become "too much"? That's the hard part...

MFD surely has got better and more all-around with CMOS, but it has also lost some of its originality. It's not really CMOSs fault as such, but rather the inability to focus on other properties than megapixels and dynamic range. Had they made a 60MP version put in some light shields in the design, and perhaps dropping or at least reduce the aggressiveness of the microlenses I think it could have been the most tech cam friendly sensor ever. When BSI then arrives they could reduce well depth and then start increasing pixel count again without losing angular response (when you have deep wells you need large pixels to have good angular response, it's simple geometry)

If I would have had the power to adjust the CMOS design target I'm not sure if I would have changed them from the current though. There's a reality out there and indeed I think megapixel is king, to stay attractive MFD needs to keep a good megapixel distance to the current 135 which is at 50 now. It's really not about lens quality, that is a too complex discussion, just hit them with the head with twice the amount of megapixels and watch it sell. Holding back ISO performance and megapixels to keep the wide angle tech cam niche happy just isn't worth it from a business perspective, it's then better to try convince the niche run on a back which isn't designed for them. Ideally one would make two sensors with different design targets, but it's probably unrealistic from a development cost perspective.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 01:48:42 pm by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #343 on: January 07, 2016, 01:47:55 pm »

Hi Anders,

I am not so sure about the thing about well depth thing.

I would also guess that Sony is going after the main market and that is probably MF DSLRs. Personally, I feel MF needs to go mirror less. After all, who needs that flipping mirror just to show a mediocre image on a mediocre ground glass. The idea I really like is a technical camera with a high quality EVF, magnified LV and focus peaking. But sorry, if I cannot afford I will not buy…

Best regards
Erik

A problem for the tech camera genre is that pixel technology is merging to be the same in 135 and MFD.

Before medium format sensors where in a zone where they could both have a bit higher pixel count and at the same time a larger pixel, and they would also allow themselves to waste some high ISO performance by not having micro lenses.

This allowed medium format sensors to function with lens designs that was impossible on the smaller formats, which is symmetric or weak retrofocus wides, providing a unique feature set, near distortion-free lenses with a large range of movements.

Now with pixel sizes just as small on MFD like on 135, and the same desires regarding ISO performance, the same limitations regarding lens designs is there which means that lenses must be designed in the same way as for the smaller formats.

It's quite obvious that both Rodenstock Digarons and Schneider Digitars are both obsolete in terms of design when it comes to supporting the new MFD king, Sony, but thanks to the extremely good tonality and dynamic range of the Sony some of this over-capacity can be used to do the impossible. Due to subject- and condition-dependent gradual degradations of image quality in shifted areas its hard to quickly get a grip of exactly how these systems perform. I'm myself thrown between hope and despair. It will for sure make images on the wides with quite large shift range, but when does the subtle color degradations become "too much"? That's the hard part...

MFD surely has got better and more all-around with CMOS, but it has also lost some of its originality. It's not really CMOSs fault as such, but rather the inability to focus on other properties than megapixels and dynamic range. Had they made a 60MP version put in some light shields in the design, and perhaps dropping or at least reduce the aggressiveness of the microlenses I think it could have been the most tech cam friendly sensor ever. When BSI then arrives they could reduce well depth and then start increasing pixel count again without losing angular response (when you have deep wells you need large pixels to have good angular response, it's simple geometry)
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torger

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #344 on: January 07, 2016, 01:59:53 pm »

Hi Anders,

I am not so sure about the thing about well depth thing.

I would also guess that Sony is going after the main market and that is probably MF DSLRs. Personally, I feel MF needs to go mirror less. After all, who needs that flipping mirror just to show a mediocre image on a mediocre ground glass. The idea I really like is a technical camera with a high quality EVF, magnified LV and focus peaking. But sorry, if I cannot afford I will not buy…

Yes it's a main market thing. Tech cam wide photography with large shifts, eg architecture photography, is just too small a niche to care much about. If you can only make one sensor, make it for the key segment and try to shoehorn it into the others. And it is very much shoehorning going on right now in the tech wide tests I can assure you... not sure yet how that will end.

While I agree that on tech cams ground glass image is mediocre due to the high vignetting lenses and low angle of incoming light, I don't think the mirrorless discussion apply to the MF DSLRs. The image you see in the optical viewfinder is good, just like on the 135 Pro DSLRs. It's even better in MF as it's larger. As you're using auto focus you don't have the problem of messing around with a loupe on it either. I think the typical studio photographer, which is the main customer segment, will want to use an optical viewfinder for at least a handful more years so I don't think we'll see mirrorless for the H or XF system anytime soon. I also think Canon/Nikon's flagship models will stay optical viewfinder for quite long, as the key market of pro customers simply like it, and there's some technical reasons too related to the possibility to have a dedicated auto focus sensor which is currently performing much better for telephoto than on chip phase detection.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #345 on: January 07, 2016, 02:28:44 pm »

Hi Anders,

Your points are well taken, but the mirror causes vibrations. Shooting with my Planar 120/4 on my Hasselblad 555/ELD at say 1/125 without mirror lock up just produces crap even if I am shooting on top of an RRS Versa 3S with an ArcaSwiss D4 head.  I also think that phase detection combined with contrast sensing AF can give superior results, unless shooting fast action, and I don't see a lot of MFD at Formula One or horse show jumping championships.

Now, it is very well possible that new cameras have a better damped mirrors. The new Phase One camera has an almost vibration free LV mode. But I think the SLR concept belongs to history. A magnificent piece of history, but history nevertheless.

Best regards
Erik

Yes it's a main market thing. Tech cam wide photography with large shifts, eg architecture photography, is just too small a niche to care much about. If you can only make one sensor, make it for the key segment and try to shoehorn it into the others. And it is very much shoehorning going on right now in the tech wide tests I can assure you... not sure yet how that will end.

While I agree that on tech cams ground glass image is mediocre due to the high vignetting lenses and low angle of incoming light, I don't think the mirrorless discussion apply to the MF DSLRs. The image you see in the optical viewfinder is good, just like on the 135 Pro DSLRs. It's even better in MF as it's larger. As you're using auto focus you don't have the problem of messing around with a loupe on it either. I think the typical studio photographer, which is the main customer segment, will want to use an optical viewfinder for at least a handful more years so I don't think we'll see mirrorless for the H or XF system anytime soon. I also think Canon/Nikon's flagship models will stay optical viewfinder for quite long, as the key market of pro customers simply like it, and there's some technical reasons too related to the possibility to have a dedicated auto focus sensor which is currently performing much better for telephoto than on chip phase detection.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #346 on: January 07, 2016, 02:41:55 pm »

and there's some technical reasons too related to the possibility to have a dedicated auto focus sensor which is currently performing much better for telephoto than on chip phase detection.

you can have mirror, dedicated AF sensors and yet EVF, even w/o dSLT (like the current Sony fixed mirrors) - put a better small sensor where the prism is, it can do both metering & color tracking (which is anyways already there) together with dedicated AF sensors (where they are now, below the mirror box) and let it feed EVF...  as it is not the main imaging sensor it can be just optimized for metering/tracking/EVF purposes leaving the main sensor rest till the exposure time...
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #347 on: January 07, 2016, 02:52:50 pm »

Could someone please make a new thread titled "Far Fetched Camera Ideas and Workflows That Have No Practical Value in the Real World"  and move 2/3 of these posts there?

eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #348 on: January 07, 2016, 03:28:29 pm »

Could someone please make a new thread titled "Far Fetched Camera Ideas and Workflows That Have No Practical Value in the Real World"  and move 2/3 of these posts there?

+1.

BTW, thank you for your thoughts and images, which are precisely on topic and informative.



Edmund
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torger

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #349 on: January 07, 2016, 04:14:30 pm »

As a 20+ year veteran of professional architectural photography, I'm beginning to feel like my dream system may never exist.

I'd love to hear at some point what the properties of such a dream system is.

Mine is pretty simple - a CMOS digital back that is designed to work to the edge of the image circles of the currently available Rodenstocks Digarons and Schneider Digitars. I can live with the LCC and lack of integration mess, but I really would love to be able to just care about the optics, its image circle and sharpness and not worry that the sensor can't handle my movement settings regardless what I set them to. And then to dream further I would love if Schneider with proper sensor support had stayed in and continued with their more traditional designs for us that prefer that instead of maximum-sharpness-at-all-costs type of designs which Rodenstock represent. They were really complementary brands, but Schneider was let down by the sensors making it impossible to make reasonable business with their lenses.

I guess that now we're pushed towards making center frames and adjusting perspective in post-processing. With the ultra-high resolution we're getting it seems feasible from a quality perspective. I haven't really thought about if that is a less productive way to work or not, but it surely is less pleasing as I see it.
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vjbelle

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #350 on: January 07, 2016, 04:21:49 pm »

I'd love to hear at some point what the properties of such a dream system is.

Mine is pretty simple - a CMOS digital back that is designed to work to the edge of the image circles of the currently available Rodenstocks Digarons and Schneider Digitars. I can live with the LCC and lack of integration mess, but I really would love to be able to just care about the optics, its image circle and sharpness and not worry that the sensor can't handle my movement settings regardless what I set them to. And then to dream further I would love if Schneider with proper sensor support had stayed in and continued with their more traditional designs for us that prefer that instead of maximum-sharpness-at-all-costs type of designs which Rodenstock represent. They were really complementary brands, but Schneider was let down by the sensors making it impossible to make reasonable business with their lenses.

I guess that now we're pushed towards making center frames and adjusting perspective in post-processing. With the ultra-high resolution we're getting it seems feasible from a quality perspective. I haven't really thought about if that is a less productive way to work or not, but it surely is less pleasing as I see it.

++1 and 2

Victor
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gebseng

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #351 on: January 07, 2016, 07:10:52 pm »

Could someone please make a new thread titled "Far Fetched Camera Ideas and Workflows That Have No Practical Value in the Real World"  and move 2/3 of these posts there?

I quite enjoy the discussion. Try to see it as a water cooler chat (the IQ3 100 being the water cooler), with the advantage of being able to scroll over the posts or posters you don't appreciate, like in your twitter stream. At least that's what I do.

best,

geb
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gebseng

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #352 on: January 07, 2016, 07:31:48 pm »

I guess that now we're pushed towards making center frames and adjusting perspective in post-processing. With the ultra-high resolution we're getting it seems feasible from a quality perspective. I haven't really thought about if that is a less productive way to work or not, but it surely is less pleasing as I see it.

What I dislike most about doing keystone correction in post is the fact that I totally lose control over composition while shooting (I have a background in architectural photography, and use a Credo 40 on a Linhof Techno for most of my work).

I recently added a Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II to my setup, and I really like its "digital keystone compensation" feature, which lets you correct perspective (both vertical and horizontal) live on the camera screen (or viewfinder) while shooting. This way you can effectively "shift"  and compose properly, and you also don't have to find out in post that you have to crop too much after keystone correction and should have chosen a wider angle lens. The out-of-camera JPEG comes corrected, but RAWS are untouched, and you can apply the same level of correction in post (which, if I remember correctly, is something you can also do with the IQ backs in C1, which is able to automatically read out the roll and pitch data from the IQs gyroscope).

As Anders said, the loss of resolution is note an issue anymore with 100mp. At least for me, it is not even an issue with my meager 40mp back most of the time.

best,

geb
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gebseng

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #353 on: January 07, 2016, 07:43:29 pm »

I'm also not happy about Phase Ones solid silence about these issues and that they never mention crosstalk -- crosstalk is an uncontroversial standard term in image sensor design and it's obvious that the special issues we have here is related to that. It's easily explained too. I don’t understand why Doug and other representatives are so reluctant to using this term. It's almost like they want photographers not know so they don't know what to look for and therefore buy without knowing what compromises they make when shifting.

+1

(I switched from an Aptus 75 to a Credo 40, because the Aptus had no live view. And, unlike some people here in the forum, not being good at ground glass composition and focussing, I had to shoot tethered to a laptop even on location, which was a drag.  While with the Aptus 75 I could shift my heart out (20+ mm) and never had problems after the LCC, with the Credo 40 everything above 10mm starts to be a problem. But the buildings I shoot refuse  to get shorter, maybe I should get a drone). Crosstalk is a real issue for some of us.

best,

geb
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 07:52:08 pm by gebseng »
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Ken R

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #354 on: January 07, 2016, 08:00:57 pm »

I'd love to hear at some point what the properties of such a dream system is.

Mine is pretty simple - a CMOS digital back that is designed to work to the edge of the image circles of the currently available Rodenstocks Digarons and Schneider Digitars. I can live with the LCC and lack of integration mess, but I really would love to be able to just care about the optics, its image circle and sharpness and not worry that the sensor can't handle my movement settings regardless what I set them to. And then to dream further I would love if Schneider with proper sensor support had stayed in and continued with their more traditional designs for us that prefer that instead of maximum-sharpness-at-all-costs type of designs which Rodenstock represent. They were really complementary brands, but Schneider was let down by the sensors making it impossible to make reasonable business with their lenses.

I guess that now we're pushed towards making center frames and adjusting perspective in post-processing. With the ultra-high resolution we're getting it seems feasible from a quality perspective. I haven't really thought about if that is a less productive way to work or not, but it surely is less pleasing as I see it.

Quite a few of you guys here should be working in the industry with the sensor manufacturers / designers or at least have contact with the powers that be. In the technical side of things. 
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #355 on: January 07, 2016, 09:15:40 pm »

Okay, if I assume that RawDigger (RawDigger-1.2.3.435-x64.exe) reads the ISO 50 sample file correctly, then this is what I find:

ReadNoise (standard deviation)
R=5.04
G=5.04
B=5.03
G2=5.02

Blacklevel
Offset=1024 (automatic, the mean of the masked pixels is 1025.7, 1025.2, 1025.4, and 1025.4)

Saturation
R=65532
G=65532
B=65532
G2=65532

So for Dynamic Range I get for the green channels Log((65532-1024) / 5.03) / Log(2) = 13.65 stops dynamic range, instead of 15 stops. I'm not sure if the camera's 14 or 16 bit mode was used for this shot, but 13.65 stops is still impressive.

Again, this assumes that Rawdigger reads the file data correctly, and that the masked photosites contain only read-noise (QED).

Cheers,
Bart

Now that we have received our unit and have done a shoot with 16-bit mode turned on I can confirm the previous raw files (ISO Sweep of the city) was done in the 14-bit mode.

You can download 16 bit raws from our shoot here: https://digitaltransitions.com/first-phase-one-100mp-fashion-raw-files/

Jeffery Salter

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #356 on: January 07, 2016, 10:22:41 pm »

If you look under "Format" in the metadata menu in CO 9.0.2 it will show IIQ L for the 14bt file and IIQ L 16bit for the 16 bit file.  I've attached a few screen grabs for reference.



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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #357 on: January 07, 2016, 11:11:06 pm »

Hi,

It looks interesting, at least in my version of RawDigger. The low numbers definitively look to be 14-bit as only each fourth bit contains data. Going up to say 100-200 levels the gaps start to fill in.

I have the latest version of RawDigger, but Phase One cameras above IQ-280 are not officially supported it seems. So it can be that RawDigger would interpret something wrong. Still it is very odd.

A small comment to Doug, it seems that focus is bad on the f/10 image, as the f/14 is far more distinct.

Best regards
Erik


Now that we have received our unit and have done a shoot with 16-bit mode turned on I can confirm the previous raw files (ISO Sweep of the city) was done in the 14-bit mode.

You can download 16 bit raws from our shoot here: https://digitaltransitions.com/first-phase-one-100mp-fashion-raw-files/
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:44:16 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #358 on: January 07, 2016, 11:43:48 pm »

Hi Anders,

Your points are well taken, but the mirror causes vibrations. Shooting with my Planar 120/4 on my Hasselblad 555/ELD at say 1/125 without mirror lock up just produces crap even if I am shooting on top of an RRS Versa 3S with an ArcaSwiss D4 head.  I also think that phase detection combined with contrast sensing AF can give superior results, unless shooting fast action, and I don't see a lot of MFD at Formula One or horse show jumping championships.

Now, it is very well possible that new cameras have a better damped mirrors. The new Phase One camera has an almost vibration free LV mode. But I think the SLR concept belongs to history. A magnificent piece of history, but history nevertheless.

Best regards
Erik
Possibly, guess we’ll see if Phase wants to make a new body and new line up of lens that eliminates the mirror box. As it stands now, I don’t know if any company has the interest in expending R&D to develop a mirrorless MF system to replace the current dSLR systems.  Tech cameras are great, but for many they don’t fit their shooting needs (either from a personal or a practical point of view)  Personally for some things an EVF still isn’t great ... the new XF viewfinder and fast focusing along with focus calibration is pretty sweet.  With the LS lenses, i haven’t seen mirror vibration an issue, even with the 240 LS on a tripod but not mirror up mode. still need to do more testing on that though.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:23:21 am by Wayne Fox »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #359 on: January 08, 2016, 12:18:20 am »

Hi,

Yes, I think leaf shutters are pretty vibration free.

One thing I noticed in the raws I downloaded from Digital Transitions is that the exif data has fields for tilt and shift. The only camera that I know of that registers T&S is the T&S adapter for the Hasselblad, but Phase May also be working on something. I would also agree that EVF-s are "not there yet" for viewing but I also find it far more comfortable to focus trough the viewfinder than on LCD.

Hasselblad has user set able delay between mirror release and shutter release, but that of course increases response time. With the vibration sensor it is possible that that XF delays shutter release until vibrations decay.

Lots of interesting stuff going on.

Best regards
Erik

Possibly, guess we’ll see if Phase wants to make a new body and new line up of lens that eliminates the mirror box. As it stands now, I don’t know if any company has the interest in expending R&D to develop a mirrorless MF system to replace the current dSLR systems.  Tech cameras are great, but for manu don’t fit their shooting needs (either from a personal or a practical point of view)  Personally for some things an EVF still isn’t great ... the new XF viewfinder and fast focusing along with focus calibration is pretty sweet.  With the LS lenses, i haven’t seen mirror vibration an issue, even with the 240 LS on a tripod but not mirror up mode. still need to do more testing on that though.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 01:16:50 am by ErikKaffehr »
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