H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

If we go back to the original posting, this is  what the OP is asking:

Hi all,

I'll be grateful for your feedback on the following:

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

The latest MF (IQ 250 last year and XF+new IQ backs) or Hasselblads have been our of reach for me until now, the current promotion for H5D-50c priced at $14,500USD is way too tempting. I have scheduled a hands-on demo the next week so I guess that will tell me almost everything but I want to listen to you, guys more experienced who are shooting MF systems already.

How do you feel about the future of Hasselblad?
Does buying a H5D-50c mean I will get stuck with a dinosaur soon?

I think I’m aware of the drawbacks of a MF system and I’m willing to sacrifice speed, weight and its shooting envelope for image quality, dynamic & colour range and pixel acuity.

So he wants to learn about the benefits of the Hasselblad over the Canon/Otus combo. You say that there is an advantage to the Hasselblad but it is not a great benefit? This is exactly what the OP is asking for.

The OP is also worried about the future of Hasselblad. In that case there have been very little good news. Admittedly no bad news either. So I can see some folks are worried. You have some good news, that is really great.

Personally, I hope that Hasselblad stays around. To me it seems that Hasselblad builds a great professional camera system. The classical Hasselblad was about tools and not "bling". I would also add that I like the fact that Hasselblad designs their lenses, even if Fujinon finalises the designs. Also, Hasselblad publishes measured MTF data for all their lenses. Neither of these facts are really essential, but I feel both are positives for the Blad.

I think we have interesting times ahead. Some old MFD users are switching over to Sony FE-mount as this gives them the option to rig a small system with shift and tilts. I am using such a solution myself, and find it far more practical than using my P45+ on the Flexbody.

Regarding the HTS, it is a good example of Hasselblad thinking out of the box. I don't know if it is the perfect solution. Perhaps Hasselblad will develop something like Flexbody but optimised for the CMOS based backs. If you can use a short flange distance it would be possible use tilt and shift without extender?

Best regards
Erik

This is a pretty good example of a thread here.

Someone asks about Hasselblad vs Canon. (I've shot  both and IMO the Hasselblad has a slight edge but it's marginal)

A Phase one dealer launches into an extensive sales pitch for the Phase system.  (Great system but expensive and not what the OP asked about)

Someone who doesn't own an HTS tells us that it's no good. (I love my HTS and use it when shooting pizzas in studio and the client wants them sharp front to back from a 3/4 angle)

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

All in all a pretty typical LL thread

[tjv]

Amen to that.

This is a pretty good example of a thread here.

Someone asks about Hasselblad vs Canon. (I've shot  both and IMO the Hasselblad has a slight edge but it's marginal)

A Phase one dealer launches into an extensive sales pitch for the Phase system.  (Great system but expensive and not what the OP asked about)

Someone who doesn't own an HTS tells us that it's no good. (I love my HTS and use it when shooting pizzas in studio and the client wants them sharp front to back from a 3/4 angle)

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

All in all a pretty typical LL thread

[eronald]

maybe our friendly phase dealer can, for a change, shed some light on a Hassy topic

Edmund

This is a pretty good example of a thread here.

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

All in all a pretty typical LL thread

[torger]

Few if any user owns all systems and have done side by side testing, which of course is what would be ideal. Quite many of us has seen results from a wide range of systems though, including the HTS. The HTS is fine, but its €4000 needs to be combined with €4000 lens and then together with the (automatic) lens corrections it almost reaches the quality of an SK35XL (ie not bad, but not Rodenstock Digaron-W sharpness), that was the impression I got last time I saw a result from the HTS+HCD24 combo.

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison with the HTS+HCD24 H5D-50c with Canon 5Ds+TS-E 24 II. I don't know what the result would be, but I think they would be pretty close actually, with the HTS having an edge due to it's automatic lens corrections, and the Canon having larger shift range.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Just to say, I bought the 24/3.5TSE LII as a high quality alternative to my wide angle zooms. My A7rII was quite a bit late, but I had the opportunity to try it on my friends EOS 5DIII. We also shot his brand new 16-35/4 in parallel, and we found that the 16-35 may have been marginally better.

Since than, I got my A7rII and the 24/3.5 TSE was one of the lenses I have used most and mostly to my satisfaction. That said, the weaknesses I observed were still there on the A7rII, but they did matter very little.

My sample of the TSE is brand new, but it may be a less than optimal sample. Roger Cicala and Brandon Dube over at Lensrentals have a discussion about sample variation on wide angles and there is a lot, but I don't think the TSE II is worse than others: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/07/variation-measurements-for-wide-angle-lenses

Best regards
Erik

Hmm... that has not been my experience at all.  For several years, my wide angle architecture setup was the SK35 on a 60mp back (P65+ and then IQ260).  I found that the 24TS-EII on the A7r easily outperformed the MF rig.  It could shift further while holding better edge sharpness and color shifting wasn't nearly the issue it was with the Schneider.

I've been really surprised to read criticisms here of the 24TS-EII.  It's easily one of the sharpest lenses I've owned... at least my copy is.

[jduncan]

One advantage of the Hassy is its tilt shift adapter.

The camera will likely be complemented by one with a slightly larger chip, but will stay on as an entry model: photographers seem to like it.

Edmund

And the other is the dynamic range of the Sony Sensor.  It's seems  that the sensor is very good (reviewers, images).
If the following information tests reach confirmation it will be "outstanding" sensor.

http://photorumors.com/2015/12/23/pentax-645z-scored-101-at-dxomark/

Best regards,

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It is a Sony sensor of pretty late generation, so it should perform like other Sony sensors, and those are all near of top at DxO. Having 1.7 times the sensor area should move it to the top of the list.  So >100 figure was pretty much expected.

Which camera is the best performer may depend on your needs, but I would expect them to be pretty close in the resolution case. I don't think you would see differences in print, at any size, at least not assuming good samples of each lens.

The Hassy sensor will give cleaner shadows at least at base ISO.

There are only three Otus-lenses, but Canon is revamping the lens line, with quite a few truly excellent performers and there are excellent performers from Sigma, too.

Attached below is a shot taken with a Hasselblad 555/ELD using the 120/4 Macro Planar at f/11 and one shot with Sony A7rII using the Sony 90/2.8G at f/8. I won't say both images are optimal, best focus differs and image stabilisation was set on the Sony lens. But what I see is that:

• Both lenses outresolve the sensor
• The images are pretty close in quality

Now, both the A7rII and the P45+ are a snap below the 50 MP cameras. The Hasselblad uses an old lens and the new HC-lens line is generally sharper than the older Zeiss line.

Let's not forget that raw processing plays a major role.

Would anyone be interested, the raw images are here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/P45+_vs_A7rII/

Best regards
Erik

And the other is the dynamic range of the Sony Sensor.  It's seems  that the sensor is very good (reviewers, images).
If the following information tests reach confirmation it will be "outstanding" sensor.

http://photorumors.com/2015/12/23/pentax-645z-scored-101-at-dxomark/

Best regards,

[Ken R]

Is there a reason for the blue/cyan bias on the Sony A7RII images? I have seen it not just in Erik's samples but in many other's as well.

Would be cool to compare a tech camera lens with the Otus/Canon combination. In the case of the Otus 28mm a 40mm on a tech cam and a sensor like the 60 or 80 mp phase1 should be a pretty good focal length match.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

In this case it is in part a white balance issue, but also about colour conversion in C1. The attachment below is from LR 6 conversion, here the Sony image is on the left. Would be interesting to hear other views on that issue. Anders Torger, who developed a profiling tool for both DNG Color Profiles and Capture one found that profiles play a far more important role than sensors.

One reflection may be that Sony users are accustomed to Sony's auto white balance, which is a bit colder than WB off a grey card.

This part of the image is essentially sky illuminated and with some sunlight coming from the back side, so that part of the image is green but without a lot of yellow. The more sunlit parts are more yellowish green.

I would agree that an 80MP, Rodenstock HR vs Otus comparison would be interesting, but it is not what the OP is asking about. I would also say that OP's question makes a lot of sense, as both systems are 50 MP.

Best regards
Erik

Is there a reason for the blue/cyan bias on the Sony A7RII images? I have seen it not just in Erik's samples but in many other's as well.

Would be cool to compare a tech camera lens with the Otus/Canon combination. In the case of the Otus 28mm a 40mm on a tech cam and a sensor like the 60 or 80 mp phase1 should be a pretty good focal length match.

[Ken R]

Hi,

In this case it is in part a white balance issue, but also about colour conversion in C1. The attachment below is from LR 6 conversion, here the Sony image is on the left. Would be interesting to hear other views on that issue. Anders Torger, who developed a profiling tool for both DNG Color Profiles and Capture one found that profiles play a far more important role than sensors.

This part of the image is essentially sky illuminated and with some sunlight coming from the back side.

I would agree that an 80MP, Rodenstock HR vs Otus comparison would be interesting, but it is not what the OP is asking about. I would also say that OP's question makes a lot of sense, as both systems are 50 MP.

Best regards
Erik

One can compare the H5D-50c with the Hasselblad 35mm lens and the back with a tech cam and the 32mm HR-W against the Otus 28mm. Three way! comparison.

Yes, there must be something with the A7RII profiles (several) because the blue/cyan bias is everywhere. Some people do not like the skintones coming out of the Sony and that might be it.

[eronald]

One can compare the H5D-50c with the Hasselblad 35mm lens and the back with a tech cam and the 32mm HR-W against the Otus 28mm. Three way! comparison.

Yes, there must be something with the A7RII profiles (several) because the blue/cyan bias is everywhere. Some people do not like the skintones coming out of the Sony and that might be it.

It's not the profiles, I believe, rather the CFA. The A7IIR has color discrimination issues in the greens.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Ken,

The OP asked about H5D-50C vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus.

I would think that the Hasselblad 120 macro would be a step up from the Macro Planar 120, but the P45+ sensor is larger than the 50c sensor. And the Sony A7rII is no 5DsR and nor is the Sony 90/2.8G an Otus.

But I think this comparison is the only one posted on this thread? And it even includes the raw files.

Best regards
Erik

One can compare the H5D-50c with the Hasselblad 35mm lens and the back with a tech cam and the 32mm HR-W against the Otus 28mm. Three way! comparison.

[Drew Harty]

Hi all,

I'll be grateful for your feedback on the following:

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

The latest MF (IQ 250 last year and XF+new IQ backs) or Hasselblads have been our of reach for me until now, the current promotion for H5D-50c priced at $14,500USD is way too tempting. I have scheduled a hands-on demo the next week so I guess that will tell me almost everything but I want to listen to you, guys more experienced who are shooting MF systems already.

• How do you feel about the future of Hasselblad?
• Does buying a H5D-50c mean I will get stuck with a dinosaur soon?

I think I’m aware of the drawbacks of a MF system and I’m willing to sacrifice speed, weight and its shooting envelope for image quality, dynamic & colour range and pixel acuity.

As a Credo 50 and A7RII user, I would like to suggest the most important difference between the 5DSR and H5D-50c is how you plan to use them and not purely their differences in image quality. Using a digital back on a view camera or technical camera or MF system on a tripod will change how you interact with your subject. The tilt and swing capabilities of a view camera or technical camera with a digital back will offer controls that a DSLR or mirrorless camera can't match, unless used on a view camera. You will likely have have fewer lens choices using a MF system and certainly using a view camera than what is available for your Canon, which again may change how you interact with your subject matter.

If you agree that pixel peeping and the last bit of dynamic range don't ultimately make our photos more interesting, then I would carefully consider how the ergonomics of each system will impact your shooting as a primary concern for evaluating the benefit of each to your photography.

Drew Harty

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It is quite possible to use the Sony A7rII with T&S. Personally I use a HCam Master TSII with a bunch of Hasselblad V-series lenses and also a Canon 16-35/4L zoom. The HCam gives something like 12 mm of shift with Hasselblad lenses and also allows 11 degrees of tilt. (*)

Here is a thread on that combo: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/56810-hcam-master-tsii-sony-a7rii.html

The HCam has no geared adjustments, but on the plus side the HCam/Sony A7rII has peaking, which is very helpful in finding the plane of sharpness and pin point accurate focusing is easy with 12.5X magnified live view. Being able to use T&S was the major reason I switched over to the Sony A7rII.

I also have a Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII.

I sort of think that the camera is an imaging device and it is the photographer who decides how he/she interacts with the subject.

This illustrates maximum tilt:


And this one maximal shift:


The enclosed image shows the HCam Master TSII with a Novoflex Canon EF to Hasselblad V adapter in my bag.

I happen to have a bunch of Hasselblad lenses, which is fortunate. But, Hasselblad lenses are abundant and quite affordable. Obviously not as good as a Rodenstock HR, but if we are not pixel peeping to mutch, they will do fine.

Best regards
Erik

(*) According to Stefan Steib (maker of the HCam) the Canon 11-24/4 gives generous amount of shift on the HCam. The 16-35/4 mm gives just a few mm at 16 and quite a bit more at > 20 mm. The HCam does not control aperture, so the lens needs to be stopped down before mounting on HCam.

Shift and tilt are orthogonal on the HCam. Some photographers use the HCam with an extra Kipon or Mirex T&S adapter to allow tilt and shift in the same direction.

Technical cameras with full geared movements are clearly more ergonomic, but the HCam actually fits easily in lens size slot in the backpack and costs around 800€.

As a Credo 50 and A7RII user, I would like to suggest the most important difference between the 5DSR and H5D-50c is how you plan to use them and not purely their differences in image quality. Using a digital back on a view camera or technical camera or MF system on a tripod will change how you interact with your subject. The tilt and swing capabilities of a view camera or technical camera with a digital back will offer controls that a DSLR or mirrorless camera can't match, unless used on a view camera. You will likely have have fewer lens choices using a MF system and certainly using a view camera than what is available for your Canon, which again may change how you interact with your subject matter.

If you agree that pixel peeping and the last bit of dynamic range don't ultimately make our photos more interesting, then I would carefully consider how the ergonomics of each system will impact your shooting as a primary concern for evaluating the benefit of each to your photography.

Drew Harty

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

But the OP is shooting Canon. Canon has some T&S lenses like 17/4, 24/3.5 (and also 45 and 90 mm). Would that no be enough, Schneider also makes some T&S lenses. Hartblei.DE also make a set of T&S lenses based on the same lens groups as used by the Hasselblad 40/4 CFE IF, Planar 80/CFE and Planar 120/4 CFE.

It is also possible to Hasselblad V, Mamiya and Zencanon lenses with a Mirex or Kipon T&S adapter. But, it is not possible to stack two T&S adapters on the Canon.

Anyway, Canon users don't need to switch system for T&S options…

Best regards
Erik

Hi,

It is quite possible to use the Sony A7rII with T&S. Personally I use a HCam Master TSII with a bunch of Hasselblad V-series lenses and also a Canon 16-35/4L zoom. The HCam gives something like 12 mm of shift with Hasselblad lenses and also allows 11 degrees of tilt. (*)

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