H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions

[Franzl]

...However, this makes no sense from a strategic and a longterm value standpoint and it more than anything hurts customers confidence in the brand...

Had the same feeling and it also feels at hasselblad needs cash urgent, as I assume the margin is gone in an 40% price drop.

[eronald]

Had the same feeling and it also feels at hasselblad needs cash urgent, as I assume the margin is gone in an 40% price drop.

Contrary to Phase, Hassy has a fully amortized cheap and dumb body; the smarts are in the back and the shutter is in the lens, where the customer pays for it. Now the back price is falling because Sony is lowering prices.

Expect the Pentax 645Z to fall too ...Phase will hang on to the luxury pricing ss long as they ca, at least in public.


Edmund

[johnnycash]

Did it ever occurred to you that shelling some shares only means access to technology and to profits?
Did it ever occurred to you that the new pricing policy results on P1 loosing customers to Blad?
Did it ever occurred to you that after the 24th of December will be another, even more aggressive pricing policy as it happens for the later four months where when one promotion ends, it is followed by a better one and the fact that Hasselblad is moving H5D-50 as to be their entry level product?

The H5D-50 costs for them to make less than the H5D-40 and thus it's by far more profitable if they can sell it in much larger numbers and more expensive than the H5D-40... It takes no Einstein thinking to conclude simple math....

"shelling some shares only means access to technology and to profits" .. hmm this statement is so generic it can mean anything. I think your opinion is not based on anything, not even your own experience (have you ever "shelled" shares of your own company with this outcome?)

As for your other points, all of them are somewhat easy to deduct from the current situation. However, without hard facts, these are just assumptions.

You are saying H5D-50 costs less to make than H5D-40. What are the costs? I don't see the simple math here, please elaborate on the subject.

[johnnycash]

Dealers who sell P1 will obviously prefer to do a high margin expensive sale to a cheap low margin sale. As a result, a product that gets sold "cheaper"  through those dealers ends up being both too expensive and not getting any sales. So maybe hassy should just give up on the dealers and go straight for the traditional pro sales houses like B&H.

Edmund

Interesting point.

[johnnycash]

• The Otus, in all it's greatness has it's best advantage at large apertures, once you stop down it may have little benefit as it will be limited by diffraction like any other lens.

Erik, please rent/borrow Otus and test it out yourself before posting conclusions online. There's more to the overall result than sharpness and stopped down Otus will always yield better results than any other stopped down lens regardless of the diffraction limit.

[BernardLanguillier]

Wouldn't it make sense that visual artists would like to use beautiful looking tools? 

Fair point. To some extend it does, I would of course go for the better looking device among 2 with equal performance.

We probably all differ in our ability to perform creatively and also in terms of how influenced we are by our environment, including the tools we use.

I feel that I am able to isolate myself to a high degree from the tool and focus on the creative intend of a given assignment, as long as the tool doesn't come in the way. Which is what I meant, I favour performance (including UI of course) much more than looks.

Cheers,
Bernard

[johnnycash]

Before you jump, try the Pentax 645z.  Same chip, half the price.  I love the Hass, but if leaf shutter lenses aren't critical to your work - which it doesn't seem - the Pentax will give you all that detail with a much lower price point.  Will you be replacing your Canon gear or just adding to it?

Hasselblad as a system is fine, there's lots of use out there, it just seems stagnant as MF as a whole hasn't done much and 35mm is advancing pretty quickly.  I don't see them folding as Contax and Rollie did, mostly due to the size of the user base and the rental market.  The -50c wifi back has some great features, in ISO, color and pixel detail.

Don't purchase if you're worried about dinosaur status, folks still shoot Contax and love it, even though they shut down a decade ago.  If you're going to use it, it'll be fine.  If you're gonna drop $14.5k on a camera back and body (you still need a lens), you can get into a used Hass or Phase back or a technical camera setup.  Don't focus on the money, focus on process and output of your work.  I've put enough shots on my Hass I figure it's a $1 a click, and I've broke even at this point.

-Joe

Joe,
thank you for your opinion.

To me, the best system is the one I can use exclusively, that means selling my Canon gear somewhere down the line.

I have tried the Pentax 645z and it offers a great price/performance. I just can't seem to get over the current lens offer, lack of future-proofness and unrefined ergonomics.

I like your approach of seeing the value instead of money.

[eronald]

Joe,
thank you for your opinion.

To me, the best system is the one I can use exclusively, that means selling my Canon gear somewhere down the line.

I have tried the Pentax 645z and it offers a great price/performance. I just can't seem to get over the current lens offer, lack of future-proofness and unrefined ergonomics.

I like your approach of seeing the value instead of money.

Johnny,

 Unfortunately getting rid of Canon completely is unrealistic. Apart from the Phase dealer, I think we all agree about that sad fact: MF wins on quality, but 35mm systems fight back with huge flexibility which MF lacks.

Edmund

[gavincato]

Joe,
thank you for your opinion.

To me, the best system is the one I can use exclusively, that means selling my Canon gear somewhere down the line.

I have tried the Pentax 645z and it offers a great price/performance. I just can't seem to get over the current lens offer, lack of future-proofness and unrefined ergonomics.

I like your approach of seeing the value instead of money.

Personally I can't imagine anything in MF world keeping up with the ergonomics of the latest and greatest dslr's.

I use a 645z and a 1Dx - I can't imagine ever tossing the Canon out as much as I prefer the 645z files.

The 645 is pretty clunky compared to the Canon but you get used to it. I think I'd say that also if I had a blad or a P1 (from the limited time i've played with them).

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Not that easy here in Sweden.

If you have good examples, please post.

I also feel you take my statement out of context. The OP's question is weather the 5DsR/Otus combo can match the H5D-50c. That camera has a format advantage and some pretty good lenses. I am not partial against the Otus, but I don't need f/1.4 lenses.

A German periodical (C't Foto) has compared high res DSLRs using Otus lenses with MFD a few times, and the MFDs always came out on top. But that is at pixel peeping magnifications.

As the MFD needs significantly less magnification compared to a DSLR, the DSLR needs to have a significant advantage in sharpness to compensate for that. 

Another point that may have some importance is that there are only tree Otus lenses. I would also add the 135/2 APO, which is in the same division as the Otuses, I think.

My take on the issue is that buy the camera you want and buy decent lenses and learn to make best use of them.

Personally, I am pretty sure my V-series Hasselblad will see little use, albeit it is a bit sharper than my A7rII. The A7rII just gives more flexibility, for instance tilt capability with a lot of lenses. Practical things matter. Still I keep the "Blad", I enjoy using it.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, please rent/borrow Otus and test it out yourself before posting conclusions online. There's more to the overall result than sharpness and stopped down Otus will always yield better results than any other stopped down lens regardless of the diffraction limit.

[johnnycash]

Hi,

Not that easy here in Sweden.

If you have good examples, please post.

I also feel you take my statement out of context. The OP's question is weather the 5DsR/Otus combo can match the H5D-50c. That camera has a format advantage and some pretty good lenses. I am not partial against the Otus, but I don't need f/1.4 lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,
I was reacting to your conclusions based on theoretical DxO sharpness data. Whether you personally need fast lens or not is not relevant here. Peace and please, let's put this discussion aside unless you get your hand on Otus and test it in real world. Forget DxO.

As you are saying now and I agree, the point is, can the 5DSR + Otus combo match the H5D-50c? I got the answer and got comparison photos + raw files to prove it.
Before I post a comparison post, I want to make sure this comparison is fair, I process the files correctly and most importantly, the overall results are presented in the right context.

Thank you,
J.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Its likely fair in one or 2 perspectives...just post it

[Joe Towner]

What is the point of this thread?  What is the point the OP trying to understand?

Let's back up, it started with

Hi all,

I'll be grateful for your feedback on the following:

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

The latest MF (IQ 250 last year and XF+new IQ backs) or Hasselblads have been our of reach for me until now, the current promotion for H5D-50c priced at $14,500USD is way too tempting. I have scheduled a hands-on demo the next week so I guess that will tell me almost everything but I want to listen to you, guys more experienced who are shooting MF systems already.

• How do you feel about the future of Hasselblad?
• Does buying a H5D-50c mean I will get stuck with a dinosaur soon?

I think I’m aware of the drawbacks of a MF system and I’m willing to sacrifice speed, weight and its shooting envelope for image quality, dynamic & colour range and pixel acuity.

.....

From that we have had some pixel peepers comparing the Otus, to trashing multiple companies pricing policies or any specials being run.  Turn that into deep dives into the financial stability of firms whom are owned by Venture Capital companies, and expecting some magic reply.  I don't get it. 

There is no such thing as a magic 'perfect for everything camera' in either the 35mm or MF world.  It doesn't exist.  I don't see 600mm plus autofocus lenses for medium format, but you can get a number of different ones for 35mm.  We just got 50mp on 35mm gear, but the H3DII-50 came out in Jan 2009!  There is no future-proof gear.  There is no necessity to owning medium format gear.  If you worry about your lens mount or back, stick with EF - it's been around a long time, some 100 million lenses, not to mention all the 3rd party or adaptable lenses.  Any of the Medium Format vendors could be gone in 3 years - we just don't know (and neither do they).


Go into your demo with an open mind of 'here is something different'.  Shoot the scene with your Otus, and shoot it with the Hassy.  Take both files and go process them to your hearts content.  Print them, small and large.  Use the gear as much as you can, and ask a lot of questions - it's easier some times in person.  Treat the sales person really well - and make sure you buy something substantial from them.

Know that the Hassy with a lens or two plus a few additional accessories like a second battery, a few new bags and you're out over $20k.  Find a local source for renting HC/HCD lenses - if you don't have one, it's going to suck. 

Have fun, shoot a lot, learn a lot and print more.  It's just money, and medium format either works for you or it doesn't.

-Joe

[torger]

I have tried the Pentax 645z and it offers a great price/performance. I just can't seem to get over the current lens offer, lack of future-proofness and unrefined ergonomics.

There are others, like the owner of this site, that say the 645z ergonomics is very refined indeed. The body looks about the same as the old analog versions of it, so it's not exactly a new untried ergonomic concept. But as with all camera ergonomics its a matter of taste, and the size of your hands etc, and not the least what you're used to.

That it lacks future proofness sounds interesting, what do you mean by that?

Personally I've given up on future proofness, and in MFD I don't think you should look so much into the future, and why do that anyway? You buy a camera to use now and for a few years, and when it's time to upgrade you either do exactly that, or sell off and buy a new system.

Tech cams like is my MFD is the worst in future proofness. The shutters I'm using ceased manufacturing a couple of years ago, Schneider make their last production run as we speak. I'm not worried though, just look how long Contax survived after end of production. I could be shooting the same system in ten years if I like, and that's enough future for me.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

As you are saying now and I agree, the point is, can the 5DSR + Otus combo match the H5D-50c? I got the answer and got comparison photos + raw files to prove it.

Hi,

From a sensor point of view, the outcome is predictable. As long as the lens projected image gets sampled at the same density (number of discrete samples), the limiting resolution will be the same (if we stay far enough away from diffraction dominating apertures).

However, a physically larger sensor array will require a larger lens magnification factor to cover the sensor area with a larger image circle, a longer focal length for the same field of view. The larger magnification factor will result in lower cycles/mm for the same subject features, and a lower cy/mm will have a higher MTF.

Using the same OTUS focal length on two sensors with different physical dimensions will produce different fields of view, and complicate a real comparison. The magnification factor will be the same, but the sampling density will differ. Different sampling densities will have different limiting resolutions (Nyquist frequency), and higher sampling densties will produce a higher system (optical x sensor) MTF.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bo Dez]

The images coming out of the Pentax are nice. The lens line is weak though and the camera has no appeal to me what so ever. It's ugly as sin. I would not choose it over the Hasselblad. But I think it looks like Pentax are getting back to what they once were and it will be interesting to see how they develop. The Pentax 67 is still one of the better Medium Format cameras and still favoured by many who shoot film. It would have be great to have seen a 645 version of this, something like the size of the Leica S.

[Theodoros]

I agree that Pentax is an outdated design that I would never consider... Other than the unbalanced body, the camera has the longest mount among all MFDB cameras, which is almost 7mm longer than the Contax 645, 8mm than the M645 bodies and almost 10mm than Hasselblad bodies! OTOH, I think that it would be difficult for it to enter the MFDB market if it was based on a new design... Pentax, clearly made the choice as to use the available base of old customers that where using the camera from the film days... In reality the body is as long as modern 6x6 cameras should be and only uses a 44x33mm sensor on a body that looks a "white elephant" for the purpose.

[NickT]

This is a pretty good example of a thread here.

Someone asks about Hasselblad vs Canon. (I've shot  both and IMO the Hasselblad has a slight edge but it's marginal)

A Phase one dealer launches into an extensive sales pitch for the Phase system.  (Great system but expensive and not what the OP asked about)

Someone who doesn't own an HTS tells us that it's no good. (I love my HTS and use it when shooting pizzas in studio and the client wants them sharp front to back from a 3/4 angle)

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

All in all a pretty typical LL thread

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Thanks for sharing! That is some good news!

Best regards
Erik

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

[landscapephoto]

This is a pretty good example of a thread here.

Someone asks about Hasselblad vs Canon. (I've shot  both and IMO the Hasselblad has a slight edge but it's marginal)

A Phase one dealer launches into an extensive sales pitch for the Phase system.  (Great system but expensive and not what the OP asked about)

Someone who doesn't own an HTS tells us that it's no good. (I love my HTS and use it when shooting pizzas in studio and the client wants them sharp front to back from a 3/4 angle)

Someone talks about Hasselblad's perceived financial problems. (The truth is quite the opposite but I cannot say more as I'm NDA'd)

All in all a pretty typical LL thread

Yes, and the constant repetitions of the same arguments is getting quite annoying. I would even say that for someone like me using Hasselblad cameras, the value of this forum is getting lower and lower. Unfortunately, there is not much alternative.