H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions

[Doug Peterson]

The problem is finding the customer that is prepared to spend three times as much, yet buying a product that is performing and specified much the same...

Theodoros: you've used a Credo 50, IQ150, IQ250, IQ350 on an XF and an H5D-50c so that you compare how they perform in the real world? That's great, please share this hands on experience with us.

I apologize as I was under the mistaken impression that you've not used any modern Phase One back or body.

[Doug Peterson]

Dealers who sell P1 will obviously prefer to do a high margin expensive sale to a cheap low margin sale. As a result, a product that gets sold "cheaper"  through those dealers ends up being both too expensive and not getting any sales. So maybe hassy should just give up on the dealers and go straight for the traditional pro sales houses like B&H.

B&H sells H

This is an old myth. The dealer channel does not add much to the total cost of the system. Our margins are not that high and we handle the marketing, support, service, and local presence that the manufacturer would have to pick up when they go direct.

As a real world example of this, call up B+H (who sell Leaf) and ask them for pricing on a Credo 50. Then call us and get pricing on a Credo 50. Guess who wins (hint: it's not the big box store for whom the Credo is a fraction of a sliver of a percent of their revenue, it's the company that lives, breaths, and knows the Credo inside and out).

Then ask them a medium-level technical question about the back that can't be answered by looking at the spec sheet. Then ask us.

[Doug Peterson]

I cannot help wonder how many IQ250 Phaseone still manages to sell with this price difference.

The only measurable advantage it probably still has pretty much boils down to C1 pro support. Is that worth 20,000 US$ that buys you a whole lens line up?

A few advantages of the XF + IQ350 that you missed (most of which also apply to the IQ150 and IQ250)...
- Digital Body Platform built in 2015 rather than 2002*
- Digital Back Interface built in 2011 rather than 2004*
- Faster Autofocus
- Improved Ergonomics
- Built in Profoto Air Transmitter***
- 1/1600 sync instead of 1/800
- Blue Ring Lens line which is a step above the build quality of any previous Hassy or Phase lens
- Option to use focal plane lenses up to 1/4000th of a sec (H body only accepts leaf shutter lenses), including some random/exotic lenses like the Contax 80/2 (remounted) or Schneider 130mm IMAX Cinelux (see see here)
- 5 year warranty, including unlimited loaners on any back/body/lens that requires service**
- Metering when using Waist Level Viewfinder
- Focus Mask
- Customizable Exposure Warning
- Customizable Clipping Warning
- Exposure Heat Map
- Customizable Grids and Guides including option to drag a guide to a custom location
- Buttons which are easy to use with thick gloves on (when touchscreen isn't usable)
- Built-in Perspective Correction and Horizon Correction when using Capture One
- Complete duplication of the camera interface on the digital back, in the case that the top of the camera is not easily viewable
- Complete duplication of the camera interface, including camera preferences like button assignment, from Capture One
- Super fast transfer times when shooting tethered due to use of USB3 rather than the legacy FW800 spec****
- Support for USB3 1.2BC which allows you to power the back and body from supported USB hubs
- Direct setting of aperture from a hard dial (also can be disabled if you want to lock one ISO in)
- Vibration Capture mode which delays capture until the built in Seismograph shows no meaningful vibration
- Simple UI option which only displays Shutter/Aperture/ISO; for minimalists
- Excellent integration with technical cameras, where you'll find, by far, the best wide angle lenses made, and the option for rise/fall/shift on every lens, with no change in focal length or additional glass elements
- Industry leading dark-frame calibration for the cleanest long exposures (we've tested to 1-hour, but it should do fine much longer; we just don't have the patience to test several 2-hour exposures)
- Fastest and most feature-full wireless option (Capture Pilot)
- Dual battery power sharing, so when one starts to run low you can keep shooting without changing batteries, and when changing batteries the body/back both remain on using the other battery (no reboot of camera or reconnect to computer required).
- Strong legacy of good upgrade offers for upgrading to future backs
- Strong legacy of continued repair/service long after the product has been discontinued. LightPhase from 1998 is still supported in Capture One v9 in El Capitan; P20 (non plus) released in 2004 is still repairable and will be for several more years - compare this to the list of Hasselblad products which are no longer serviced.
- Professional support from expert dealers; for instance we (DT) have four full-time support people on staff covering three time zones, in addition to the four support people Phase One has at their US office. People usually default to thinking about "repairs" here, but the reality is 95% of our calls are about something other than a repair (questions about Capture One, needing help understanding a camera setting, a problem they are experiencing which they assume is a camera malfunction but is actually user error or a bad accessory like a bad 3rd party USB cable); getting someone on the phone who can straight away tell you the answer to an obscure question can come in handy!

And yes... as you say, Capture One support, which given how far of a lead Capture One 9 has now, is no small matter.

And the price difference is not as big as you think. There are four 50mp CMOS options from Team Phase One (Credo 50, IQ150, IQ250, IQ350) which covers a large range of potential budget (of course Hassy will only make the comparison to the flagship IQ350 when discussing pricing) and the list price is not the same as the street price from a good dealer. We're working with a client right now considering an IQ150 + XF + three Blue Ring lenses or an H5D-50C and we're getting him in the same range of pricing.

There are a few advantages to the H5D as well, such as the HTS system and True Focus (especially nice when shooting static subjects with wider lenses wide open with large recompositions). Some 20% or so of our new clients buying new bodies are going for H5X bodies with Phase One backs; but 80%+ are going for the XF. This is true at the lower price points (e.g. IQ150) as well as the higher price points (IQ380), so seems not to be purely a pricing issue.

*H1 released in 2002 is the basis for the H5. True focus and some increased focus speed being two of the only meaningful improvements since then. H1D released in 2004, the interface of which is still the basis of the H5D with incremental improvements.
**You can pick up from us same-day or have it couriered to you if in NYC or LA. Overnight delivery anywhere else in the country.
***Can be used with any brand of lighting, just add a Profoto Air Receiver to the light
****IQ series also has FW800 though in case you prefer it, for instance, because of the availability of 30' cables

[eronald]

Doug,

 There is one detail which needs repeating: all dealers do not offer Doug Peterson support. The value of concierge service depends on the concierge, and being in his geographical zone.

 Apart from that one can pick apart your list, and decide what the claims are really worth - for instance I would start at the top with item 3, "faster autofocus". You stand by the claim that the XF will focus faster than an H5D, with a modeling lamp as sole lighting, and say an 80mm? I think we could test that

 Let's face it, P1 does not slaughter the competition out there in the field although the new body does give as good as it gets.

Edmund

A few advantages of the XF + IQ350 that you missed (most of which also apply to the IQ150 and IQ250)...
- Digital Body Platform built in 2015 rather than 2002*
- Digital Back Interface built in 2011 rather than 2004*
- Faster Autofocus
- Improved Ergonomics
- Built in Profoto Air Transmitter***
- 1/1600 sync instead of 1/800
- Blue Ring Lens line which is a step above the build quality of any previous Hassy or Phase lens
- Option to use focal plane lenses up to 1/4000th of a sec (H body only accepts leaf shutter lenses), including some random/exotic lenses like the Contax 80/2 (remounted) or Schneider 130mm IMAX Cinelux (see see here)
- 5 year warranty, including unlimited loaners on any back/body/lens that requires service**
- Metering when using Waist Level Viewfinder
- Focus Mask
- Customizable Exposure Warning
- Customizable Clipping Warning
- Exposure Heat Map
- Customizable Grids and Guides including option to drag a guide to a custom location
- Buttons which are easy to use with thick gloves on (when touchscreen isn't usable)
- Built-in Perspective Correction and Horizon Correction when using Capture One
- Complete duplication of the camera interface on the digital back, in the case that the top of the camera is not easily viewable
- Complete duplication of the camera interface, including camera preferences like button assignment, from Capture One
- Super fast transfer times when shooting tethered due to use of USB3 rather than the legacy FW800 spec****
- Support for USB3 1.2BC which allows you to power the back and body from supported USB hubs
- Direct setting of aperture from a hard dial (also can be disabled if you want to lock one ISO in)
- Vibration Capture mode which delays capture until the built in Seismograph shows no meaningful vibration
- Simple UI option which only displays Shutter/Aperture/ISO; for minimalists
- Excellent integration with technical cameras, where you'll find, by far, the best wide angle lenses made, and the option for rise/fall/shift on every lens, with no change in focal length or additional glass elements
- Industry leading dark-frame calibration for the cleanest long exposures (we've tested to 1-hour, but it should do fine much longer; we just don't have the patience to test several 2-hour exposures)
- Fastest and most feature-full wireless option (Capture Pilot)
- Dual battery power sharing, so when one starts to run low you can keep shooting without changing batteries, and when changing batteries the body/back both remain on using the other battery (no reboot of camera or reconnect to computer required).
- Strong legacy of good upgrade offers for upgrading to future backs
- Strong legacy of continued repair/service long after the product has been discontinued. LightPhase from 1998 is still supported in Capture One v9 in El Capitan; P20 (non plus) released in 2004 is still repairable and will be for several more years - compare this to the list of Hasselblad products which are no longer serviced.
- Professional support from expert dealers; for instance we (DT) have four full-time support people on staff covering three time zones, in addition to the four support people Phase One has at their US office. People usually default to thinking about "repairs" here, but the reality is 95% of our calls are about something other than a repair (questions about Capture One, needing help understanding a camera setting, a problem they are experiencing which they assume is a camera malfunction but is actually user error or a bad accessory like a bad 3rd party USB cable); getting someone on the phone who can straight away tell you the answer to an obscure question can come in handy!

And yes... as you say, Capture One support, which given how far of a lead Capture One 9 has now, is no small matter.

And the price difference is not as big as you think. There are four 50mp CMOS options from Team Phase One (Credo 50, IQ150, IQ250, IQ350) which covers a large range of potential budget (of course Hassy will only make the comparison to the flagship IQ350 when discussing pricing) and the list price is not the same as the street price from a good dealer. We're working with a client right now considering an IQ150 + XF + three Blue Ring lenses or an H5D-50C and we're getting him in the same range of pricing.

There are a few advantages to the H5D as well, such as the HTS system and True Focus (especially nice when shooting static subjects with wider lenses wide open with large recompositions). Some 20% or so of our new clients buying new bodies are going for H5X bodies with Phase One backs; but 80%+ are going for the XF. This is true at the lower price points (e.g. IQ150) as well as the higher price points (IQ380), so seems not to be purely a pricing issue.

*H1 released in 2002 is the basis for the H5. True focus and some increased focus speed being two of the only meaningful improvements since then. H1D released in 2004, the interface of which is still the basis of the H5D with incremental improvements.
**You can pick up from us same-day or have it couriered to you if in NYC or LA. Overnight delivery anywhere else in the country.
***Can be used with any brand of lighting, just add a Profoto Air Receiver to the light
****IQ series also has FW800 though in case you prefer it, for instance, because of the availability of 30' cables

[BernardLanguillier]

Thanks for the list Doug.

You are correct that listing C1 Pro 9 as the only differentiator was an over simplification.

I am not denying that these things add up to deliver a better experience and a wider set of adressable usage patterns, but as far as I am concerned, they would perhaps justify a price premium of 3,000-4,000 US$, not more.

Cheers,
Bernard

[landscapephoto]

the list price is not the same as the street price from a good dealer. We're working with a client right now considering an IQ150 + XF + three Blue Ring lenses or an H5D-50C and we're getting him in the same range of pricing.

What you are effectively saying here is that Phase One official prices are inflated so as to allow the dealers to offer large discounts. I don't think forcing the customer to haggle is a healthy commercial practice.

Just to be clear: I am not criticising you, I am criticising Phase One policies. I understand that, as a dealer, you cannot influence that policy and are prohibited to disclose prices and rebates.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Getting back to the original posting a little bit. The OP is obviously tempted by the Hasselblad offering because of it's reasonable costs.

There are couple of points I would add to the discussion.

• The Otus, in all it's greatness has it's best advantage at large apertures, once you stop down it may have little benefit as it will be limited by diffraction like any other lens.
• The linear size of the Sony 50MP CMOS sensor is 27% larger than 24x36, so the Otus should have a 27% advantage in resolution to compensate. It would not achieve it at f/11.
• Canon Sensors have a lot of readout noise, so they cannot match a Sony sensor at low ISO.
• In real life, accurate work is needed to extract maximum performance. Here vibrations from shutter and mirror play a great role and so does focusing accuracy.

So, I would expect the 50 MP CMOS cameras to have a tiny advantage in sharpness over the Canon 5DsR and Otus combo, at least at medium to small apertures.

Most Hasselblad lenses are quite good, they are designed by Hasselblad and built by Fujinon. Hasselblad publishes measured MTF data for all their lenses. I wouldn't bet on the Phase One lenses being better.

The great uncertainty seems to the economical position of Hasselblad, but from the latest financial data published here it may seem that they are in calm water after some stormy years.

Best regards
Erik

[Franzl]

The biggest difference in the DMF line up are the lenses imho. H-lenses aka Fuji lenses are a little bit softer than PhaseONE lenses. Some PhaseONE lenses are even too sharp for portraits for me. Leica S lenses probably being the best in here. Don't get the advantage of the HTS. It's expensive, doesn't have 0 point and you cannot go really wide to the 1.5 crop. The one photog I know who uses it, changed to Cambo.

The other big difference is user interface where hands down PhaseONE rules. Another big point is the software where PhaseONE rules again.

For me it doesn't matter if I spent another 5k on a expensive system, because if I spent that much money I wanna have that system that makes me happy 100%. If you brake it down with real offers from dealers with lenses and all the other stuff you need, they all cost almost the same. In the end you are billing that system down to your client anyway.

All systems have there pro and cons. What might be important to someone won't be important to the other one. Test it and go with the system that makes you happy. The cheapest is the Pentax system, but the body doesn't do it for me, neither the lenses or the software. So price shouldn't be the biggest factor in buying a DMF.

[landscapephoto]

H-lenses aka Fuji lenses are a little bit softer than PhaseONE lenses.

I would not say that as a general rule. The H 24, 28, 50-II and 120-II are among the best lenses I know.

Don't get the advantage of the HTS. It's expensive, doesn't have 0 point and you cannot go really wide to the 1.5 crop.

The main advantage of the HTS is that it simply works. One does not need to fumble with grey cards, distortion corrections, etc... everything is automatic. Besides, it has 0 points, you just need to check the digital readouts. And with the 24mm on it, you get a 35mm equivalent, which is as wide as the tech cam lenses one can actually shift.

[torger]

The Rodenstock Digaron-32W with a 60 MP 54x41mm back is wider than 24 HCD + HTS and shifting works in a quite large range. You need LCC though.

If you have a 44x33mm sensor you get decent shift range on the Digaron-S 23mm, depending on how well the sensor in question can handle the color cast...

The HTS is elegant though due to it's automatic handling in software, I still don't consider a teleconverter extension as an ideal solution for high resolution photography.

[landscapephoto]

The Rodenstock Digaron-32W with a 60 MP 54x41mm back is wider than 24 HCD + HTS and shifting works in a quite large range. You need LCC though.

Indeed, I forgot about that lens, which is a bit wider than the HTS+24mm. Still: people complain about the HTS system not being "wide enough", but I find that the 24mm changed the deal there.

The HTS is elegant though due to it's automatic handling in software, I still don't consider a teleconverter extension as an ideal solution for high resolution photography.

I rented one and the results were perfect on a 50 mpix back. For me that makes it fit for "high resolution photography". Personally, I would have more problems with the large edge fall-off of symmetrical lenses and the high shadow noise that often results from the associated corrections. This being said, I think it really is a question of choice and that either system has its advantages and drawbacks.

[Chris Livsey]

A few advantages of the XF + IQ350 that you missed (most of which also apply to the IQ150 and IQ250)...
- Digital Body Platform built in 2015 rather than 2002*

SNIP

*H1 released in 2002 is the basis for the H5. True focus and some increased focus speed being two of the only meaningful improvements since

Actually I take that as an advantage, it means I get to run my P45+ on a dirt cheap body, H1, easily and cheaply replaced if necessary, with firmware that is updated still.

[torger]

Yes the age of a camera platform doesn't necessarily mean anything, you need to look at its current usability. A camera shouldn't change much, evolution rather than revolution. As a photographer you get used to how a camera works, where the buttons sit the ergonomics etc.

Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I'm not particularly fond of the iPhone look and touch screens of the Phase, it feels a bit... gimmicky. The Hasselblad looks more like a camera should look, although I thought it looked like an alien space ship when I first saw it. The Pentax 645z may be the ugliest camera ever created (well no, that's the Konica AiBORG), but it looks serious.

[Theodoros]

Yes the age of a camera platform doesn't necessarily mean anything, you need to look at its current usability. A camera shouldn't change much, evolution rather than revolution. As a photographer you get used to how a camera works, where the buttons sit the ergonomics etc.

Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I'm not particularly fond of the iPhone look and touch screens of the Phase, it feels a bit... gimmicky. The Hasselblad looks more like a camera should look, although I thought it looked like an alien space ship when I first saw it. The Pentax 645z may be the ugliest camera ever created (well no, that's the Konica AiBORG), but it looks serious.

LOL.... well said! The Contax 645 is all the platform one needs... AF performance is rarely the case with MF equipment!

[BernardLanguillier]

The Hasselblad looks more like a camera should look, although I thought it looked like an alien space ship when I first saw it.

I would agree that the H5D is the best looking MF camera at the moment.

Not that I think that the looks of a camera is at all relevant to photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Theodoros]

I would agree that the H5D is the best looking MF camera at the moment.

Not that I think that the looks of a camera is at all relevant to photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

It is good looking alright.... but more beautiful than the Contax? ....no way! 

[Franzl]

I would agree that the H5D is the best looking MF camera at the moment.

Not that I think that the looks of a camera is at all relevant to photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

To me the XF IQ is the nicest looking cam. A cam needs to be black and not silver and those straight simple lines with a touch of the future (or present). Actually design wise I think it's a mix between the Contax and the Hasselblad 500 series. 2 sexy cameras :-)

[landscapephoto]

Not that I think that the looks of a camera is at all relevant to photography.

Wouldn't it make sense that visual artists would like to use beautiful looking tools? 

[johnnycash]

Thanks for the Hasselblad financial info. Much improvement over 2013, it seems.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,
it is an improvement. However, it would be great if someone (anyone here affiliated to Hasselblad reading this? Silence doesn't help) could chime in and provide us also with the Swedish Hasselblad financial data as it could clarify the whole situation even further and probably shine a different light on the overall situation.

What we know so far:

• Hasselblad received some cash from DJI http://www.dji.com in exchange for a minority stake and formed a strategic partnership with this aggressive new (2006) aerial technology company
• That means Hasselblad could become a stronger player than PhaseOne in the Aerial industry
• Hasselblad in Denmark either lost some employees or let them go due to insufficient funds
• Hasselblad's development team has left and works for PhaseOne
• Hasselblad in Denmark is consolidating and relocating its operations to Sweden
• Hasselblad in Sweden is hiring people
• Hasselblad is losing customers who are moving towards the PhaseOne system

As we know, leveraging the Hasselblad's goodwill/brand can only work up to a certain limited degree, let their "exclusive" overpriced consumer PTS cameras serve as an example.
According to Hasselblad, the current Christmas promotion price is only valid until Dec 24th, then the price will raise. It's supposed to create a scarcity feeling and a sense of urgency. However, this makes no sense from a strategic and a longterm value standpoint and it more than anything hurts customers confidence in the brand.
Individual, dealer based sales promotion are fine and boost customer confidence.
Global and unpredictable pricing strategies along with the of communication hurt customer confidence.

[Theodoros]

Erik,
it is an improvement. However, it would be great if someone (anyone here affiliated to Hasselblad reading this? Silence doesn't help) could chime in and provide us also with the Swedish Hasselblad financial data as it could clarify the whole situation even further and probably shine a different light on the overall situation.

What we know so far:

• .......That means Hasselblad could become a stronger player than PhaseOne in the Aerial industry.......
• .......Hasselblad is losing customers who are moving towards the PhaseOne system.......

..........According to Hasselblad, the current Christmas promotion price is only valid until Dec 24th, then the price will raise.......

Did it ever occurred to you that shelling some shares only means access to technology and to profits?
Did it ever occurred to you that the new pricing policy results on P1 loosing customers to Blad?
Did it ever occurred to you that after the 24th of December will be another, even more aggressive pricing policy as it happens for the later four months where when one promotion ends, it is followed by a better one and the fact that Hasselblad is moving H5D-50 as to be their entry level product?

The H5D-50 costs for them to make less than the H5D-40 and thus it's by far more profitable if they can sell it in much larger numbers and more expensive than the H5D-40... It takes no Einstein thinking to conclude simple math....