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Author Topic: Capture One Pro 9 Released!  (Read 29324 times)

indusphoto

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 06:40:09 pm »

Samsung NX1 camera support is dropped (previously it was broken) and support for NX500 was never added.

These are niche, but very capable cameras, and since I have moved to this system from Nikon, I am not upgrading and will look to sell my existing license.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 07:58:56 pm »

still no LAB color readouts w/o shelling many thousands for C1 HE  >:(  !!!

Correct.

Full and robust support for LAB is exclusive to the Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition and will remain so.

AlterEgo

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 08:26:00 pm »

Correct.

Full and robust support for LAB is exclusive to the Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition and will remain so.


nobody is asking for full or robust anything - just one item - the LAB color readouts, that's it... or better yet HSV/HSL/HSB representations of the current proof RGB color space... it stupid when you can't see the color readout data separated in a more logical way than RGB (and to use Color Editor is too time consuming - I want to see multiple color readouts in place where I put them in preview )
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 09:59:23 pm »

nobody is asking for full or robust anything - just one item - the LAB color readouts, that's it

This will remain a feature exclusive to C1CH.

AlterEgo

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 11:11:30 pm »

This will remain a feature exclusive to C1CH.
I got the dealer's POV, that however does not stop users to ask P1 ...
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Dan Wells

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2015, 11:42:55 pm »

Quote
Re "out of the blue", Capture One Pro is released on a 12-18 month release cycle. So expect the next one around winter of 2016 or spring of 2017.

For that to be really useful to avoid the double upgrades that at least three folks on this forum are facing, it would have to be a lot more specific than 12-18 months (when Adobe did this, it was within a week or two each year - you knew EXACTLY when Photoshop was coming).

Capture One's release history is as follows (mostly from Wikipedia).
Version 3: Can't find the actual release date, but it was on 3.6 by late 2004!
Version 4: December 2007: (PRO delayed until October 2008) (AT LEAST 4 years)
Version 5 (almost invisible): October 2009 (two years - one if you count from Pro 4)
Version 6 (first modern C1): December 2010 (one year)
Version 7: November 2012(two years)
Version 8: September 2014(two years)
Version 9: November 2015.(one year)

It does look like it's generally a fall/early winter release, but the number of years is unpredictable, although often two - it looks like it's been on a two year cycle since v4, albeit with a bit of chaos caused by the delay of v4 PRO before the big v6 upgrade. Since it was extensively modernized at v6, it had reliably been two years until v9. Unless you count v4 to v5 using the delayed PRO version of v4, the only paid upgrade in less than two years had been v5 to v6 (and v5 was the very low adoption version, so most people were upgrading from v4 or even v3).   
         Since C1 Pro 8 had three important free point upgrades (and Phase One had actually posted that they were moving to a model of LESS major upgrades, with more features added in point releases), I had expected v9 in late 2016 at the earliest, with the possibility that v8 would be like v3, hanging around for years, although effectively rewritten through point upgrades! Most C1 users are on v8 now, so we're all being hit with an early paid upgrade, and those of us who bought in when Adobe threatened to dumb down Lightroom are being hit with a paid upgrade in less than two months, and one that could NOT have been predicted.
        If we're going to see annual paid upgrades from now on, anyone who ever paid full price for v8 is a chump, because the subscription offers all the upgrades for $99/year, WITHOUT ever having made the initial, larger investment, while ownership means $99/year upgrades DESPITE the initial investment (and owners who bought at the wrong time do far worse than subscribers, effectively being rewarded for their larger initial investment with a surprise early renewal). Even if your v8 release is an upgrade, as mine is, it's at the VERY best equivalent to the subscription - you get a year for $99 - and, if you bought it later than the initial release, you get hit for another $99 sooner than you predicted or would have if you subscribed.
        If Phase One had made this clear from the beginning, as Microsoft did when they moved to Office 365 (they continued to offer non-subscription Office, but made it clear that it would always be more expensive unless you cared about keeping old versions), this would  have been fine, especially if they had offered some incentive (a free year's subscription, for example), to move to the subscription. Instead, they portrayed it as two models, either of which might work out cheaper, then hit owners with an extra fee after they chose the initially more expensive option. Due to camera compatibility and lens profiles, raw converters are unlikely pieces of software to be able to skip an upgrade entirely (although, at least, C1 isn't reliably taken out by operating system upgrades the way Lightroom is).

don't get me wrong - I like C1 a lot and v9 looks like a great upgrade - I'm just unhappy with how paying for it worked out...

Dan
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Dan Wells

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2015, 12:35:39 am »

Given that I don't think the v9 upgrade is fair to recent purchasers of v8 (especially with the subscription option working out so much cheaper), I gave some thought to what WOULD be fair - here's one idea:

v7 or earlier (as far back as Phase One wants to go) to v9 - $99 (Phase One is already generous to version-skippers by  letting them upgrade at all, and nobody has bought v7 or earlier very recently, so there's no reason for an extra discount).

v8 to v9 within two or three months of purchase (either would be reasonable, see below): free upgrade.

v8 to v9 beyond two or three months: Users can either trade in their v8 license for a free year's subscription (starting on a fixed date like Dec. 1, 2015 - it wouldn't be fair to Phase One if users could choose to start the subscription any time - get another 6 months or more out of v8, then start the subscription when they got a new camera or lens that needed v9) - they are then on the subscription plan and no longer have a perpetual license OR they can pay $49 (if the grace period for free upgrades is two months) or $69 (if the grace period is three months) for an upgrade to their perpetual license. Users eligible for a free upgrade can ALSO choose to trade in their license for a subscription, but there is probably little reason why anyone would choose that path (you're on $99/yr either way, so why would you give up the perpetual license).
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JaapD

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2015, 01:21:08 am »

@ David Grover: let me guess, still no OpenCL support on Fuji X-Trans files, right? Big, big disappointment!!!

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2015, 01:43:49 am »

Dan, you cited some of the legacy development times (e.g. From v3 to v4)

If encourage you to read this article which I helped the author with to understand why the older cycles are not relevant:
https://fstoppers.com/composite/building-house-capture-one-version-8-imaging-software-evolution-48435

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2015, 02:11:04 am »

Hi Dan,

I can share your feelings, as I just bought C1 v8 a few months ago.

On the other hand, a raw conversion engine is a major change really meaning a new version of the program.

Another point is that folks like me spends thousands of $/€ on new equipment each years so 100 $/€ or so is a minor inconvenience.

Subcription is an interesting option.

Best regards
Erik


For that to be really useful to avoid the double upgrades that at least three folks on this forum are facing, it would have to be a lot more specific than 12-18 months (when Adobe did this, it was within a week or two each year - you knew EXACTLY when Photoshop was coming).

Capture One's release history is as follows (mostly from Wikipedia).
Version 3: Can't find the actual release date, but it was on 3.6 by late 2004!
Version 4: December 2007: (PRO delayed until October 2008) (AT LEAST 4 years)
Version 5 (almost invisible): October 2009 (two years - one if you count from Pro 4)
Version 6 (first modern C1): December 2010 (one year)
Version 7: November 2012(two years)
Version 8: September 2014(two years)
Version 9: November 2015.(one year)

It does look like it's generally a fall/early winter release, but the number of years is unpredictable, although often two - it looks like it's been on a two year cycle since v4, albeit with a bit of chaos caused by the delay of v4 PRO before the big v6 upgrade. Since it was extensively modernized at v6, it had reliably been two years until v9. Unless you count v4 to v5 using the delayed PRO version of v4, the only paid upgrade in less than two years had been v5 to v6 (and v5 was the very low adoption version, so most people were upgrading from v4 or even v3).   
         Since C1 Pro 8 had three important free point upgrades (and Phase One had actually posted that they were moving to a model of LESS major upgrades, with more features added in point releases), I had expected v9 in late 2016 at the earliest, with the possibility that v8 would be like v3, hanging around for years, although effectively rewritten through point upgrades! Most C1 users are on v8 now, so we're all being hit with an early paid upgrade, and those of us who bought in when Adobe threatened to dumb down Lightroom are being hit with a paid upgrade in less than two months, and one that could NOT have been predicted.
        If we're going to see annual paid upgrades from now on, anyone who ever paid full price for v8 is a chump, because the subscription offers all the upgrades for $99/year, WITHOUT ever having made the initial, larger investment, while ownership means $99/year upgrades DESPITE the initial investment (and owners who bought at the wrong time do far worse than subscribers, effectively being rewarded for their larger initial investment with a surprise early renewal). Even if your v8 release is an upgrade, as mine is, it's at the VERY best equivalent to the subscription - you get a year for $99 - and, if you bought it later than the initial release, you get hit for another $99 sooner than you predicted or would have if you subscribed.
        If Phase One had made this clear from the beginning, as Microsoft did when they moved to Office 365 (they continued to offer non-subscription Office, but made it clear that it would always be more expensive unless you cared about keeping old versions), this would  have been fine, especially if they had offered some incentive (a free year's subscription, for example), to move to the subscription. Instead, they portrayed it as two models, either of which might work out cheaper, then hit owners with an extra fee after they chose the initially more expensive option. Due to camera compatibility and lens profiles, raw converters are unlikely pieces of software to be able to skip an upgrade entirely (although, at least, C1 isn't reliably taken out by operating system upgrades the way Lightroom is).

don't get me wrong - I like C1 a lot and v9 looks like a great upgrade - I'm just unhappy with how paying for it worked out...

Dan
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Dinarius

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2015, 04:34:39 am »

With respect, restricting LAB to C1CH, given the institutional pricing (and that's being polite) of that product, is ridiculous.

It would appear that the makers are afraid of losing out on C1CH revenue, if they included LAB in C1.

D.
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JaapD

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2015, 05:07:45 am »

I would also very much like to see LAB functionality in C1. For this I still need Photoshop. I find only advantages in separating the luminance channel from the color channels*. In the Video/Broadcast world this is a known fact for several decades but the photo world seems not convinced.

However, with V.9  there is a bit of LAB under the hood with the “LUMA Curves - i.e Luminance adjustment only with the power of the curve tool”. Let’s say it’s going in the right direction!

* Example: sharpening in the Luminance channel while leaving the color channels untouched. The same with Local Contrast Enhancements or noise filtering. This gives very nice and (to me) more natural results.


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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2015, 07:46:34 am »

For that to be really useful to avoid the double upgrades that at least three folks on this forum are facing, it would have to be a lot more specific than 12-18 months (when Adobe did this, it was within a week or two each year - you knew EXACTLY when Photoshop was coming).

Capture One's release history is as follows (mostly from Wikipedia).
Version 3: Can't find the actual release date, but it was on 3.6 by late 2004!
Version 4: December 2007: (PRO delayed until October 2008) (AT LEAST 4 years)
Version 5 (almost invisible): October 2009 (two years - one if you count from Pro 4)
Version 6 (first modern C1): December 2010 (one year)
Version 7: November 2012(two years)
Version 8: September 2014(two years)
Version 9: November 2015.(one year)

It does look like it's generally a fall/early winter release, but the number of years is unpredictable, although often two - it looks like it's been on a two year cycle since v4, albeit with a bit of chaos caused by the delay of v4 PRO before the big v6 upgrade. Since it was extensively modernized at v6, it had reliably been two years until v9. Unless you count v4 to v5 using the delayed PRO version of v4, the only paid upgrade in less than two years had been v5 to v6 (and v5 was the very low adoption version, so most people were upgrading from v4 or even v3).   
         Since C1 Pro 8 had three important free point upgrades (and Phase One had actually posted that they were moving to a model of LESS major upgrades, with more features added in point releases), I had expected v9 in late 2016 at the earliest, with the possibility that v8 would be like v3, hanging around for years, although effectively rewritten through point upgrades! Most C1 users are on v8 now, so we're all being hit with an early paid upgrade, and those of us who bought in when Adobe threatened to dumb down Lightroom are being hit with a paid upgrade in less than two months, and one that could NOT have been predicted.
        If we're going to see annual paid upgrades from now on, anyone who ever paid full price for v8 is a chump, because the subscription offers all the upgrades for $99/year, WITHOUT ever having made the initial, larger investment, while ownership means $99/year upgrades DESPITE the initial investment (and owners who bought at the wrong time do far worse than subscribers, effectively being rewarded for their larger initial investment with a surprise early renewal). Even if your v8 release is an upgrade, as mine is, it's at the VERY best equivalent to the subscription - you get a year for $99 - and, if you bought it later than the initial release, you get hit for another $99 sooner than you predicted or would have if you subscribed.
        If Phase One had made this clear from the beginning, as Microsoft did when they moved to Office 365 (they continued to offer non-subscription Office, but made it clear that it would always be more expensive unless you cared about keeping old versions), this would  have been fine, especially if they had offered some incentive (a free year's subscription, for example), to move to the subscription. Instead, they portrayed it as two models, either of which might work out cheaper, then hit owners with an extra fee after they chose the initially more expensive option. Due to camera compatibility and lens profiles, raw converters are unlikely pieces of software to be able to skip an upgrade entirely (although, at least, C1 isn't reliably taken out by operating system upgrades the way Lightroom is).

don't get me wrong - I like C1 a lot and v9 looks like a great upgrade - I'm just unhappy with how paying for it worked out...

Dan

Hi Dan,

With grace periods, there is always going to be someone who is just out of the period and I am sorry that you have landed in that situation.

However, I have sent you a PM with something to help out your situation.

There is educational pricing.  If you have colleagues who are interested, or students, please let me know.

David
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AlterEgo

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2015, 09:55:50 am »

However, with V.9  there is a bit of LAB under the hood with the “LUMA Curves - i.e Luminance adjustment only with the power of the curve tool”.

and why do you think this is L* from LAB instead of luminance part from just some HSV/HSL/HSB representation of whatever RGB space ?  David from P1 got us some answers from Esben*, a developer in P1 (along the lines that Esben posted here before some time back, but never hurts to repeat and make it more detailed), that C1 tries to postpone any color transform till the last stage of the pipeline (P1 does not count WB and curves as a color transform, demosaick itself naturally does not count)... so it is logical to assume that Luma curve is not done by some round trip to a proper Lab color space (that requires color transform) and back to camera space RGB.

comments from P1 about Luma curve mechanism are most welcome !
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AlterEgo

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2015, 10:01:32 am »

With respect, restricting LAB to C1CH, given the institutional pricing (and that's being polite) of that product, is ridiculous.

It would appear that the makers are afraid of losing out on C1CH revenue, if they included LAB in C1.

D.

they can restrict most of the functionality by all means - I just, for example, want a simple minor thing - make color readouts that I can stick over the preview to show me something more than RGB - if not Lab then make it something like HSV/HSL/HSB representations of the RGB color space (in addition to RGB numbers itself)... I very much like to work with some colors based not only on my eyes (what I see), but also using the numbers that I prefer to have in the form where ideally luminance is separated from color and ideally color is split into hue/saturation parts.
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tcphoto1

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2015, 12:00:03 pm »

I am a new CaptureOne user with COP8 purchased in June and went through the Apple OS10.11/OpenCL problems. I wasn't happy about the upgrade but someone posted a coupon code and it came out to US$76. I haven't played with it much but did find tethered previews to be about 3 seconds, much faster than COP8.3.4
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The View

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2015, 03:03:32 pm »

I invite you all to read our in depth article on Capture One 9.

We are providing free upgrades to Capture One v9 (see bottom of articles for details) with the purchase of one of our $199 Capture One Masters Program classes in NYC and LA.

How long is this offer active?

I might be interested but I'm plastered with deadlines until December 12th.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2015, 05:29:23 pm »

After some great assistance from David at Phase One (wow, what a difference from software companies that never respond), I upgraded today, and it's a very good upgrade. I haven't had a chance to play with the new keywording, but I HAVE tried various pieces of the new conversion engine, and the differences are both positive and noticeable (not huge, because v8 was already very good, but definitely noticeable).  With the new contrast control and a modern sensor, I can bring in dark foreground and bright sky relatively easily on the same image, WITHOUT using multi-image HDR (no, not with the sun in the frame - that would take something like 22 stops of DR, and we don't have that yet). Is there any way to bring a whole catalog over to the new engine?

New imports are using the new engine, but I need to click the upgrade box on each existing image. I like the new engine enough that I'd like to bring everything over, especially images I haven't yet tweaked.

Also, what's the trick to getting C1 to display only the raw file when it imports a raw+ jpeg. My catalog presently has both for each image, displayed next to each other, and I'd like to have just the one I want to edit. One solution is obviously to shoot raw only, but that means no jpeg to send out when I want to just pass someone a processed image. Is there a way to tell C1 "import the JPEGs off the card, but don't catalog them as separate images"?  Lightroom handles this correctly (in my opinion), and I'm guessing I'm just missing a preference somewhere in C1.

Even the default C1 conversion on a Fuji X-T1 file seems to be about as good as a tweaked Lightroom conversion (that is probably largely a better camera profile), and spending a little bit of time with it, I can get a result I can't get in Lightroom. I know that X-Trans files are Lightroom's weakness, and thanks to Phase for taking the time to get a good result with those odd non-Bayer files. I haven't got any Canon files around, which seem to be Lightroom's strongest suit, but I'd be interested to see if C1 can now produce a more pleasing conversion than Lightroom even on Canon files.

An interesting difference in reception between C1 v8 (and I'm confident v9 as well, just from the first few hours) and Lightroom v6 is that almost everyone agrees that v8 was a real upgrade. There are VERY few people sticking with C1 v7 because they prefer it, while Lightroom 5 has a loyal user base.

As C1 becomes more fully-featured, I wonder how many of us will be able to ditch Photoshop in the next couple of versions. $100 per year (whether on subscription or upgrades) is a lot more palatable than Adobe's $240/yr for LR and PS, especially as the new version model becomes established and the teething troubles with people buying two upgrades in quick succession end. I won't be able to, because I use InDesign all the time, and sometimes Illustrator and Premiere as well, so I have the full suite and can't yet ditch it, but I could certainly see going C1 only if I wasn't also doing some graphic arts work.

The article Doug  wrote (and linked to earlier in this thread) on C1 development is really interesting (if you are a geek about such things, and I am). It shows how much went in to recoding C1 to a really modern code base.

If I were Phase One (and I know they're reading this and really listen), I would add some of the auxiliaries that Lightroom has. Lightroom has really sophisticated slideshow and print modules that, if they're in C1 at all, I haven't found yet. C1's core raw engine is second to none, and we're seeing more of Media Pro make it into C1's catalog - the new keywords are a big step in that direction (I'm guessing that Phase's goal is to include most or all of Media Pro in C1 before too long, and that will really help). Once the catalog is fully fleshed out, the only reason to use Lightroom would be for those few finishing modules . How hard would it be to buy and integrate Qimage as a print module? It might be impossible, especially on the Mac side, where the (solo) developer steadfastly refuses to port Qimage - but it might be relatively easy? How much work would a slideshow module be?

All in all, a great upgrade, and I can't wait  to get into it more deeply.

Dan



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barry685

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2015, 05:38:02 pm »

Yesterday I contacted Phaseone support notifying them that I Just purchased the upgrade to v8 on Oct 26th. I just got a response with a very fair discount off of the v9 upgrade price. So I upgraded.
If any of you are in a similar situation submit a ticket to Phaseone Support.
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bernard.languillier

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Re: Capture One Pro 9 Released!
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2015, 05:42:19 pm »

Dan,

Two points:
- you can multi-select images to migrate them to the V9 engine,
- you can apply a filter after import using the raw file extension (for example nef) to only keep the raw files visible.

Cheers,
Bernard
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