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Author Topic: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB  (Read 34178 times)

tho_mas

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2015, 07:42:32 am »

PCS of the ''input" profile stays the same - cieLAB, you change (for the runtime only, unless you save it to icc/icm container to reuse) the lut with color editor and as a result the color transform clamps the data into a wider gamut (still subset of PCS).
no, you don't have to save your edits to a new icc-profile. If you select "embed camera profile" on export the edited icc-profile will be assigned to the file.
Alternatively you can simply choose ProPhoto-RGB as output color space - it will sure encompass every color you will ever produce with the color editor...
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tho_mas

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2015, 07:51:49 am »

2. All I simply want to do is to be able to soft-proof/edit in ProPhoto RGB and then save my TIFFs in this same space.
simply set ProPhot-RGB as output color space in the process recipe and be happy.

I'd like every RGB reading to be in PP RGB. So, what settings/preferences must I apply to the software to have this across the board?
if this is REALLY important to you... then you have to switch on Mac. The Windows version displays the values of the output profile on top of the viewer and the values of the input profile in the color editor. On Mac you'll also see the values of the output profile in the color editor.
Workaround for Windows: use the RGB-Read Out Pins (toolbar->color picker). As far as I remember they show the values of the output profile also on Windows... so you will see numerical changes of the output colors in the read out pins while editing colors.
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2015, 08:05:52 am »

if this is REALLY important to you... then you have to switch on Mac. The Windows version displays the values of the output profile on top of the viewer and the values of the input profile in the color editor. On Mac you'll also see the values of the output profile in the color editor.
Workaround for Windows: use the RGB-Read Out Pins (toolbar->color picker). As far as I remember they show the values of the output profile also on Windows... so you will see numerical changes of the output colors in the read out pins while editing colors.

Thanks for the reply.

Am hoping that David or Support can offer a solution. But, you seem to imply that there isn't one.

I'm wondering if Base Characteristics was also set to ProPhoto RGB, (there isn't such an option in the Base Characteristics/ICC Profile menu) instead of the camera model, would that solve the problem?

D.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2015, 08:51:32 am »

Agreed again.
David, no hard feelings, I know you're trying to help answer pertinent questions. When you first started with: I would suggest to Andrew (and yourself) if it is something you need to know, then simply ask Tech support but then moved to: I will endeavour to find the answer out for you, before any more blood is spilt, we made significant progress.
I do have to say, it might be either useful or hilarious to ask Tech Support the question, if time permits, maybe I will.

Hi Andrew,

Please see below from Esben at Phase One.
 
Anyways, the thing is that we actually do most of the work in the native camera space. In fact, we can pretty much work in the native camera space all the way to the output file. The rule is that if you can export an image with an embedded profile, then we can work in the camera space all the way. In that case, the “colorimetric interpretation” is done by the program reading our output file (e.g. PhotoShop).
 
In fact, if you embed the camera profile and export as a tif, we embed tag 301 (TIFFTAG_TRANSFERFUNCTION) which you can use to get back to a colors-pace which is closely related to the data acquired by the sensor. Obviously, the data has been heavily processed, but the processing is controlled by the user. This feature is targeted at scientific applications and 3rd party software to build color profiles.
 
The gamut you can see in the camera profile does not limit the gamut used for internal processing in Capture One. While typically large, the gamut is mostly limited because it is intended to be converted to other profiles afterwards. Also, LUT-based ICC profiles which use Lab is the PCS, have a gamut limitation. However, the conversion from the camera space (the “colorimetric interpretation” if you will) is based on ICC profiles.
 
Now, there are a few exceptions where we are forced to convert into a standard color space:
1)      Local color edits
2)      Conversion to black&white
 
There are tradeoffs with this approach. While it allows us to extract just about everything provided in the file, it also means that we need a significant effort to get the best possible quality for a camera. However, it does mean we do not limit ourselves to standardize on a specific internal color space.
 
Kind regards,
 
Esben H-R Myosotis
Formerly “EsbenHR” on Luminous Landscape

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David Grover
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2015, 09:27:58 am »

1)      Local color edits
it means Color Editor in C1 ?
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2015, 09:31:57 am »

no, you don't have to save your edits to a new icc-profile. If you select "embed camera profile" on export the edited icc-profile will be assigned to the file.
ok, you embed it instead of saving externally - the same thing (because you can extract it and save outside of C1 then)
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2015, 09:45:27 am »


2. All I simply want to do is to be able to soft-proof/edit in ProPhoto RGB and then save my TIFFs in this same space. I'd like every RGB reading to be in PP RGB. So, what settings/preferences must I apply to the software to have this across the board? I've asked them the same question.

[view] -> [proof profile] settings in C1 menu control what you see in RGB color readouts, as RGB numbers on top of the preview and RGB numbers in color editor
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2015, 10:02:37 am »

[view] -> [proof profile] settings in C1 menu control what you see in RGB color readouts, as RGB numbers on top of the preview and RGB numbers in color editor

I'm not sure what you mean by, " as RGB numbers on top of the preview and RGB numbers in color editor".

I'm assuming that the RGB numbers at the top of the screen are ProPhoto, because that's what I've got View/Proof Profile set to. Correct?

So, after taking a sample with the Color Tool picker, what RGB values am I seeing in the Color Tool dialog? (They're usually about 10-15 points higher than those at the top of the screen.)

Thanks.

D.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2015, 10:04:21 am »

it means Color Editor in C1 ?

No Local Adjustments with the color editor.
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David Grover
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tho_mas

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2015, 10:23:29 am »

No Local Adjustments with the color editor.
easier to understand when you don't call it "local adjusments". While it is basically the same it is more comprehensible to say: color adjustments on a LAYER
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2015, 10:24:20 am »

I'm not sure what you mean by, " as RGB numbers on top of the preview and RGB numbers in color editor".

I'm assuming that the RGB numbers at the top of the screen are ProPhoto, because that's what I've got View/Proof Profile set to. Correct?

yes

So, after taking a sample with the Color Tool picker, what RGB values am I seeing in the Color Tool dialog? (They're usually about 10-15 points higher than those at the top of the screen.)

this is not what I see... when I use the Pick Color Correction pipette in the same place where I put a color readout and check Color Editor -> Advanced tab... for whatever reason I might see 1-2 points difference in one component, usually Blue...  for example I just did this exercise : top RGB + color readout in place are the same = 92/98/139 and Pick Color Correction selected 92/98/137 into Color Editor...

PS: I still 'd like to ask P1 (David) why the small difference between the numbers ?
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tho_mas

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2015, 10:27:07 am »

[view] -> [proof profile] settings in C1 menu control what you see in RGB color readouts, as RGB numbers on top of the preview and RGB numbers in color editor
only on Mac. On Windows the color editor shows the RGB values of the input profile (at least in earlier versions of C1 ... but what I get from "Dinarius'" posts it still seems to apply up to now).
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2015, 10:29:41 am »

No Local Adjustments with the color editor.
so if I adjust colors without editor that does not count - only when layers are involved, correct ? just want to be sure that I am not missing anything... I wonder why the difference though ? 
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2015, 10:31:18 am »

only on Mac. On Windows the color editor shows the RGB values of the input profile (at least in earlier versions of C1 ... but what I get from "Dinarius'" posts it still seems to apply up to now).

I am on Windows (PC/Win8.1x64) and I see (right now as we talk) that color editor when color is selected by "pick color correction" pipette follows the proof profile (C1 v9.x)... I select sRGB as proof, do the whole thing (put color readout and then use "pick color correction" pipette in the same spot with 400% magnification) see consistent RGB numbers, then I select PropPhotoRGB and redo the whole thing (put color readout and then use "pick color correction" pipette in the same spot with 400% magnification) - and see again the consistent RGB numbers between color readout and color editor (camera profile stays the same).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 10:34:24 am by AlterEgo »
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2015, 10:33:25 am »

For the record, yes, I am PC - Windows 10.

There is the 10-15 point RGB difference I mentioned, between top of screen and Color Tool dialog.

And that's taking samples from a Gretag Colour Checker in the image and taking extreme care to not move the mouse cursor!  8)

D.
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tho_mas

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2015, 10:39:49 am »

I am on Windows (PC/Win8.1x64) and I see (right now as we talk) that color editor when color is selected by "pick color correction" pipette follows the proof profile (C1 v9.x)... I select sRGB as proof, do the whole thing (put color readout and then use "pick color correction" pipette in the same spot with 400% magnification) see consistent RGB numbers, then I select PropPhotoRGB and redo the whole thing (put color readout and then use "pick color correction" pipette in the same spot with 400% magnification) - and see again the consistent RGB numbers between color readout and color editor (camera profile stays the same).
ok - good to know! so it's the same as on mac...
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2015, 10:41:58 am »

easier to understand when you don't call it "local adjusments". While it is basically the same it is more comprehensible to say: color adjustments on a LAYER

Just used to using the terminology as it is described in Capture One.
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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2015, 10:45:04 am »

Ps. Looks like I created something of a monster in starting this thread!  8)
Not at all! Your questions are IMHO perfectly acceptable and relevant. The answers?
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2015, 10:48:17 am »

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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2015, 11:12:29 am »

Look up Dog!
The answers some of us are looking or is on the ceiling?  ;D


King Father: Some day, all this will be yours.

Son: What, the Curtains?
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