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Author Topic: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB  (Read 34252 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2015, 07:03:24 pm »

None the less, the target and it's gamut certainly play a role or X-rite wouldn't have somewhat struggled to create three of them over the years (one with a group of very saturated but glossy and difficult to capture patches).

one can assume that X-Rite (GretagMacbeth) apparently wanted to make a target suitable for creating "camera profiles" with LUTs where, if you create them using targets directly, you might need somewhat more reference points (patches) vs 24 (18 colored) in CC24-type targets and in case where you want LUTs you also want more to cover a wider gamut too... and struggle, I guess from reading around, has more to do with an average (and not so average) Joe not being able to make a proper shot with glossy/semi-gloss patches (ProfileMaker even had a provision /"ColorChecker DC wo gloss.txt" in reference files/ to ignore those patches in CCDC)... hence CCDC was abandoned, but CCSG still hands around...
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015, 05:07:35 am »

When I stated we both knew it was BS, I assumed you understood the subject, sorry


Raw image data is in some native camera color space, but it is not a colorimetric color space, and has no single “correct” relationship to colorimetry. The same thing could be said about a color film negative. Someone has to make a choice of how to convert values in non-colorimetric color spaces to colorimetric ones. The choice is that I've asked about, the web page you provide didn't answer the question. There are better and worse choices, but no single correct conversion (unless the “scene” you are photographing has only three independent colorants, like when we scan film).Cameras don’t have primaries, they have spectral sensitivities, and the difference is important because a camera can capture all sorts of different primaries. Two different primaries may be captured as the same values by a camera, and the same primary may be captured as two different values by a camera (if the spectral power distributions of the primaries are different). A camera has colors it can capture and encode as unique values compared to others, that are imaginary (not visible) to us. There are colors we can see, but the camera can't capture that are imaginary to it. Most of the colors the camera can "see" we can see as well. Yet some cameras can “see colors“ outside the spectral locus however every attempt is usually made to filter those out. Most important is the fact that cameras “see colors“ inside the spectral locus differently than humans. No shipping camera that I know of meets the Luther-Ives condition. This means that cameras exhibit significant observer metamerism with respect to humans. The camera color space differs from a more common working color space in that it does not have a unique one to one transform to and from CIE XYZ. This is because the camera has different color filters than the human eye, and thus "sees" colors differently. Any translation from camera color space to CIE XYZ space is therefore an approximation. What is the CIE XYZ space?


The point is that if you think of camera primaries you can come to many incorrect conclusions because cameras capture spectrally. On the other hand, displays create colors using primaries. Primaries are defined colorimetrically so any color space defined using primaries is colorimetric. Native (raw) camera color spaces are almost never colorimetric, and therefore cannot be defined using primaries. Therefore, the measured pixel values don't even produce a gamut until they're mapped into a particular RGB space. Before then, *all* colors are (by definition) possible.


So no, whatever processing COLOR SPACE I've asked about isn't the same or even similar to that captured by a camera sensor!


Adobe for whatever reason has no issue telling it's users what the actual color space for processing is utilized: ProPhoto RGB primaries with a 1.0 TRC. C1's page was written with ambiguities and marketing BS.

Hi Andrew,

That link is from Capture One 6, discontinued in 2010, so no need to be so harsh!

If I knew the information you require, then I would have no problem imparting it.  Truth is, I don't and my next question is, if you were armed with this information, what could you possibly do with it? (out of curiosity!)

D

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David Grover
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2015, 09:42:56 am »

Hi Andrew,

That link is from Capture One 6, discontinued in 2010, so no need to be so harsh!

If I knew the information you require, then I would have no problem imparting it.  Truth is, I don't and my next question is, if you were armed with this information, what could you possibly do with it? (out of curiosity!)

I've also been wondering what would be next (it's too small, it's to big, it's not like LR?), and what's more, who's to say that it is a single colorspace with fixed primaries and white point? I'm not saying it is, but maybe the workspace adapts to the camera gamut that's required after a profile is assigned? What really matters, as I see it, is that the colorpace is large enough to avoid clipping, but not excessively large which would cause unnecessarily large quantization steps in 16-bit integer math, and thus result in lower precision and posterization risk.

Cheers,
Bart
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2015, 09:47:46 am »

what could you possibly do with it? (out of curiosity!)
well, he for example can be sure that colors outside of a certain gamut (after color transform guided by camera profile) will not be clamped further inside something internally - granted that somewhat can be tested - but why P1 for once stop being so secretive ?
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2015, 09:57:19 am »

well, he for example can be sure that colors outside of a certain gamut (after color transform guided by camera profile) will not be clamped further inside something internally - granted that somewhat can be tested - but why P1 for once stop being so secretive ?

Not being secretive - see above! 

I am just thinking there must be a realllllly good reason to know information that you can't really do anything about.
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David Grover
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 10:03:47 am »

Not being secretive - see above! 

I am just thinking there must be a realllllly good reason to know information that you can't really do anything about.

you can actually - for example if that's really important to you then you can stop using C1 ... there is a thing called peace of mind.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 10:07:05 am »

you can actually - for example if that's really important to you then you can stop using C1 ... there is a thing called peace of mind.

Ok - happy with how the images look out of Capture One?
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David Grover
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 10:12:29 am »

Ok - happy with how the images look out of Capture One?

as you know some people (granted a minority) like the numbers... and when the you try to dodge the answer it simply raises the questions/eyebrows, that's it...
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 10:14:02 am »

as you know some people (granted a minority) like the numbers... and when the you try to dodge the answer it simply raises the questions/eyebrows, that's it...

I am not dodging!  As I said earlier - I don't know the answer.

I would suggest to Andrew (and yourself) if it is something you need to know, then simply ask Tech support.
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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 10:43:50 am »

Hi Andrew,
That link is from Capture One 6, discontinued in 2010, so no need to be so harsh!
I'm not sure what to make of that statement David. Are you suggesting that since Capture one 6 is no longer, the nonsense statement I pointed out is more or less valid today? It isn't.
Why is the URL that Bart posted with the ridiculous statement still up?

Quote
If I knew the information you require, then I would have no problem imparting it.  Truth is, I don't and my next question is, if you were armed with this information, what could you possibly do with it? (out of curiosity!)
Since you don't know the answer, how is telling us the URL Bart posted being about a discontinued produce relevant?
You asked, if armed with that info, what could you do with it? Answer the OP's question! See: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=106031.msg871608#msg871608
What's the gamut of the processing color space and would you even need to use ProPhoto RGB?

We know the processing color space of the ACR engine. Based on work I did years ago, I'm 99% certain that Aperture used a processing color space that had an Adobe RGB (1998) gamut. It's important because in Aperture, it would be pointless to encode into ProPhoto RGB working space! Just as the OP asked about ProPhoto and C1.


Your SIG states you are Business Support and Development Manager, Software for this company no? Then I assume, perhaps wrongly you have access to the engineers and marketing folks there too? And do you now realize as one would hope Bart does, that the statement: Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors is rubbish.Better term than BS? Is it fair to have a URL with a statement, old or new that lies to the reader? Is there a reason why we can't get a simple answer to the processing color space gamut; bigger, smaller than Adobe RGB (1998) or ProPhoto RGB? Does the tech's at your company have reason to suggest the OP encode into ProPhoto RGB? Simple question despite the big lie someone in Marketing at C1 provided in the URL Bart posted. IF you don't know, do you know someone who does?

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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 10:45:21 am »

I am not dodging!  As I said earlier - I don't know the answer.
I would suggest to Andrew (and yourself) if it is something you need to know, then simply ask Tech support.
I'd suggest to the OP he do the same. It's a shame a rep from a company cannot get the correct answers, ask their rep to answer as other companies do here or strive to educate himself on the facts of his product. Sorry David, I thought better of your ability to answer questions about your own product.
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 10:47:33 am »

I've also been wondering what would be next (it's too small, it's to big, it's not like LR?), and what's more, who's to say that it is a single colorspace with fixed primaries and white point?
Wrong again Bart  :'( . It would aid the OP, answer his question. You do realize (crap, I keep assuming you do), OK hopefully you understand that IF the colorimetric processing color space of a raw converter who's gamut can be now defined is smaller than say ProPhoto RGB, it's rather pointless to select that as the encoding color working space? Problem is, in terms of C1, WE DON'T KNOW and some here are unable to provide this simple information, instead reference nonsense: Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:01:52 am by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 10:49:13 am »

well, he for example can be sure that colors outside of a certain gamut (after color transform guided by camera profile) will not be clamped further inside something internally - granted that somewhat can be tested - but why P1 for once stop being so secretive ?
Exactly!  :D
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 10:54:57 am »

I am not dodging!  As I said earlier - I don't know the answer.
David, but you as a "face" of P1 here can press developers to tell... come on... just look how many things Eric Chan from Adobe Labs shared here about the internals and what ? did that make ACR/LR worse or harmed it's marketshare ? on the contrary people (granted - a minority again) can understand better how to use Adobe converters, how to create camera profiles for them... goodwill might be good.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 11:07:09 am »

David, but you as a "face" of P1 here can press developers to tell... come on... just look how many things Eric Chan from Adobe Labs shared here about the internals and what ? did that make ACR/LR worse or harmed it's marketshare ? on the contrary people (granted - a minority again) can understand better how to use Adobe converters, how to create camera profiles for them... goodwill might be good.

Andrew / Mr Ego,

My goodness, please take a long deep breath.  I can practically hear the blood vessels popping! There are many things in life to get excited / angry about - the working space of Capture One, should probably not be one of them.

1)  The OP asked why couldn't he choose ProPhoto RGB in the Base Characteristics tool of Capture One.  To which I answered and the OP seemed happy.
2)  You may have not noticed but we have been in the midst of a new Capture One launch and therefore all R&D guys and girls have been pretty tied up and heads down concentrating on launch.
3)  I will endeavour to find the answer out for you, before any more blood is spilt.

I had indeed intended to approach R&D about your (Andrew) question this week. My comments above were merely out of curiosity. i.e What are you going to do with this information.

I am sorry my Sig title has raised your expectations to one I cannot perform.  To be honest, this is the first time anybody has send this question since I joined in 2012...therefore had not throughly researched the subject.

Peace!

David

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:32:31 am by David Grover / Phase One »
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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 11:17:28 am »


Andrew / Mr Ego,
My goodness, please take a long deep breath.  I can practically hear the blood vessels popping!
Just your imagination David. I personally have zero emotional baggage about C1 to affect my blood vessels. That you are unwilling or unable to find an answer to a simple question is telling.
Quote
1)  The OP asked why couldn't he choose ProPhoto RGB in the Base Characteristics tool of Capture One.  To which I answered and the OP seemed happy.
A nice, safe assumption on your part. Perhaps you're correct, perhaps the OP and others here, some perhaps thinking about an Adobe exit strategy would like to know if there's any reason to pick ProPhoto RGB as an encoding working space from raw data in C1. That you've gone out of your way not to answer the question and defend the silly URL Bart provided, let's say I'm curious now. 
Quote
(2)  You may have not noticed but we have been in the midst of a new Capture One launch and therefore all R&D guys and girls have been pretty tied up and heads down concentrating on launch.
No I didn't notice why should I? Sorry the company is so short staffed. All you have to do is promise you or someone who actually knows how the product operates from a colorimetry perspective will get back to us (and I'll hold you to that sir).
Quote
To be honest, this is the first time anybody has send this question since I joined in 2012...therefore had not throughly researched the subject.
So can you or anyone inside the company do that research and get us the answer? And further, how about that silly URL that's in serious need of fixing?
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 11:19:02 am »

Just your imagination David. I personally have zero emotional baggage about C1 to affect my blood vessels. That you are unwilling or unable to find an answer to a simple question is telling.  A nice, safe assumption on your part. Perhaps you're correct, perhaps the OP and others here, some perhaps thinking about an Adobe exit strategy would like to know if there's any reason to pick ProPhoto RGB as an encoding working space from raw data in C1. That you've gone out of your way not to answer the question and defend the silly URL Bart provided, let's say I'm curious now.   No I didn't notice why should I? Sorry the company is so short staffed. All you have to do is promise you or someone who actually knows how the product operates from a colorimetry perspective will get back to us (and I'll hold you to that sir). So can you or anyone inside the company do that research and get us the answer? And further, how about that silly URL that's in serious need of fixing?

Did you miss point 3?

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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 11:20:39 am »

Did you miss point 3?
I missed the answer but I'm on hold (but not holding my breath, that would affect by blood vessels)
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 11:29:49 am »

I missed the answer but I'm on hold (but not holding my breath, that would affect by blood vessels)

Good! Stay healthy!

You wrote a lot of stuff in angry bold like unwilling and unable - so therefore assumed you had missed my point that I would find out for you?
 
I didn't realise the required answer was so urgent.
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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 11:31:30 am »

You wrote a lot of stuff in angry bold like unwilling and unable - so therefore assumed you had missed my point that I would find out for you?
 
Bold is for emphasis. As the movie line goes: you've never seen me angry.  ;D
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