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Author Topic: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB  (Read 34175 times)

Dinarius

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ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« on: November 26, 2015, 10:14:25 am »

In the colour tab in C1, under Base Characteristics/ICC Profile, I cannot find ProPhoto RGB. Am I going blind? Coz ProPhoto RGB is an option in the File/Export Images dialog.

So, if I'm right, and it isn't there, isn't it odd that you can't edit in ProPhoto, but there is the option to save in it?

Can I import ProPhoto RGB and make it an option to edit in?

Thanks.

D.

Ps. Adobe RGB 1998 is hidden under other. The default C1 chooses is the default for your camera, it seems.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 10:19:20 am »

In the colour tab in C1, under Base Characteristics/ICC Profile, I cannot find ProPhoto RGB. Am I going blind? Coz ProPhoto RGB is an option in the File/Export Images dialog.

So, if I'm right, and it isn't there, isn't it odd that you can't edit in ProPhoto, but there is the option to save in it?

Can I import ProPhoto RGB and make it an option to edit in?

Thanks.

D.

Ps. Adobe RGB 1998 is hidden under other. The default C1 chooses is the default for your camera, it seems.

This is the input profile for your camera, so in no way you would want to choose an output Color space!
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David Grover
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 10:22:51 am »

David,

Thanks for the reply.

If I want to edit using a Gretag Color Checker in some of the images, and if I want to assign Adobe 1998 RGB values to it, or ProPhoto RGB values, then shouldn't I be choosing these spaces from that list?

If not, what RGB values am I getting from the chart in the image?

Thanks.

D.
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:48 am »

Ok, am I right in thinking that if I leave Base Characteristics/ICC Profile at Camera Generic, but change View/Proof Profile to ProPhoto RGB, then the RBG values I'm seeing on the screen are in ProPhoto?

Thanks.

D.
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 12:47:06 pm »

If not, what RGB values am I getting from the chart in the image?
Another question only someone like David can answer is, what's the gamut of the processing color space and would you even need to use ProPhoto RGB?
Adobe has made it quite clear what the processing color space is: ProPhoto RGB primaries and thus it's gamut. So that would be a logical choice to select for some work. C1?
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 12:56:33 pm »

Another problem I have (related though not strictly relevant here) is that if I Pick a Colour Sample using the color picker in either the Basic or Advanced Color Editors, the RGB values in the Color Editor dialog are completely different from those above the image at the top of the screen.

This happens no matter how many selections I make from, say, a patch on a Gretag Color Checker.

I'm Windows 10. It would be interesting to know if others have the same problem.

So, which values are correct?

Thanks.

D.

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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 02:22:27 pm »

Ok, am I right in thinking that if I leave Base Characteristics/ICC Profile at Camera Generic, but change View/Proof Profile to ProPhoto RGB, then the RBG values I'm seeing on the screen are in ProPhoto?

Thanks.

D.

Noooooooo!

You MUST have a camera profile in the Base Characteristics tool.

Goto View>Proof Profile.  By default Capture One is proofing to your selected recipe.

Or you can choose any other profile you wish.

David
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David Grover
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 02:25:24 pm »

Another problem I have (related though not strictly relevant here) is that if I Pick a Colour Sample using the color picker in either the Basic or Advanced Color Editors, the RGB values in the Color Editor dialog are completely different from those above the image at the top of the screen.

This happens no matter how many selections I make from, say, a patch on a Gretag Color Checker.

I'm Windows 10. It would be interesting to know if others have the same problem.

So, which values are correct?

Thanks.

D.

Shouldn't be the case and not my experience.  But have you already got color edits applied to the image?  That will influence.
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David Grover
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Dinarius

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 02:44:22 pm »

David, thanks for the reply.

The differing RGB read outs occur even if it's the first thing I do to an image. I hover the color picker over the Greteg color patch, carefully noting the values at the top of the screen. Then I click. The values in the Color Editor dialog are, typically, 15 points different for all three values. It's the same for Basic and Advanced editors.

What would be great would be to have the option of 1x1, 5x5 and 10x10 Color picker samples.

D.
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 08:40:05 pm »

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but when I select Proof Profile, i actually see two ProPhoto RGB profiles. Does it matter which one is selected? How did two of them get there in the first place?
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Mike Guilbault

digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2015, 10:27:14 am »

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but when I select Proof Profile, i actually see two ProPhoto RGB profiles. Does it matter which one is selected? How did two of them get there in the first place?
Two sRGB profiles too. You're on a Mac right? Open the ColorSync utility, it will show you where every ICC profile everywhere on your Mac resides. You can also view if they are indeed the same 'spec' viewing various values.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2015, 10:28:07 am »

Another question only someone like David can answer is, what's the gamut of the processing color space and would you even need to use ProPhoto RGB?

Hi Andrew,

This is what is publicly known.
Quote
Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors. A large color space ensures that little clipping of the color data can occur. Clipping is the loss of image information in a region of an image. Clipping appears when one or more color values are larger than the histogram (color space of the output file).

So my reading of that is that the workspace is somewhat larger than the camera space would render to in RGB coordinates, but maybe not as immense as ProPhoto RGB. This would potentially be a risk if significant saturation boosts were added and the internal processing is done in integer math, but I assume that there's at least some floating point math going on as well (as facillitated by OpenCL), which would avoid cumulative rounding errors and is quite fast on modern computers.

Exactly how large that workspace is, I do not know, but it is at least larger than (most/all) output modalities require. I've plotted some of the Camera profiles and they usually only exceed  the printer media profiles in a few specific spots. Of course, because a profile can encode a color coordinate, doesn't mean that it's also a (meaningful) humanly visible color.

It therefore seems that CaptureOne correctly attempts to use as small a colorspace as needed (thus maximizing quantization accuracy), but large enough to avoid clipping at the source. One can output as ProPhoto RGB in case one needs to do postprocessing that involves saturation boosts, or one can directly output to an output medium profile. The choice of output profile is usually also the proofing profile setting in the viewer (but that can be changed by the user).

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2015, 10:29:33 am »

Hi Andrew,

This is what is publicly known.
Thanks but it doesn't answer the question.  ;D
We both know this is BS: Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2015, 10:43:45 am »

Thanks but it doesn't answer the question.  ;D
We both know this is BS: Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors.

Of course it is not bullshit, and you know it. The Raw camera RGB is profiled, and that can be expressed as a gamut by plotting the hull and calculating the size.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 11:27:32 am »


Of course it is not bullshit, and you know it. The Raw camera RGB is profiled, and that can be expressed as a gamut by plotting the hull and calculating the size.
When I stated we both knew it was BS, I assumed you understood the subject, sorry


Raw image data is in some native camera color space, but it is not a colorimetric color space, and has no single “correct” relationship to colorimetry. The same thing could be said about a color film negative. Someone has to make a choice of how to convert values in non-colorimetric color spaces to colorimetric ones. The choice is that I've asked about, the web page you provide didn't answer the question. There are better and worse choices, but no single correct conversion (unless the “scene” you are photographing has only three independent colorants, like when we scan film).Cameras don’t have primaries, they have spectral sensitivities, and the difference is important because a camera can capture all sorts of different primaries. Two different primaries may be captured as the same values by a camera, and the same primary may be captured as two different values by a camera (if the spectral power distributions of the primaries are different). A camera has colors it can capture and encode as unique values compared to others, that are imaginary (not visible) to us. There are colors we can see, but the camera can't capture that are imaginary to it. Most of the colors the camera can "see" we can see as well. Yet some cameras can “see colors“ outside the spectral locus however every attempt is usually made to filter those out. Most important is the fact that cameras “see colors“ inside the spectral locus differently than humans. No shipping camera that I know of meets the Luther-Ives condition. This means that cameras exhibit significant observer metamerism with respect to humans. The camera color space differs from a more common working color space in that it does not have a unique one to one transform to and from CIE XYZ. This is because the camera has different color filters than the human eye, and thus "sees" colors differently. Any translation from camera color space to CIE XYZ space is therefore an approximation. What is the CIE XYZ space?


The point is that if you think of camera primaries you can come to many incorrect conclusions because cameras capture spectrally. On the other hand, displays create colors using primaries. Primaries are defined colorimetrically so any color space defined using primaries is colorimetric. Native (raw) camera color spaces are almost never colorimetric, and therefore cannot be defined using primaries. Therefore, the measured pixel values don't even produce a gamut until they're mapped into a particular RGB space. Before then, *all* colors are (by definition) possible.


So no, whatever processing COLOR SPACE I've asked about isn't the same or even similar to that captured by a camera sensor!


Adobe for whatever reason has no issue telling it's users what the actual color space for processing is utilized: ProPhoto RGB primaries with a 1.0 TRC. C1's page was written with ambiguities and marketing BS.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 11:48:54 am by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 11:52:40 am »

The Raw camera RGB is profiled, and that can be expressed as a gamut by plotting the hull and calculating the size.
You do realize that the gamut of a profiled camera can't be any larger than the gamut of the target used to create the profile and it again has nothing to do with the processing color space (a real, colorimetric color space as Adobe defines for it's processing) used? You do realize that the so called 'color' captured by camera sensor has no color gamut?
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AlterEgo

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 02:45:45 pm »

You do realize that the gamut of a profiled camera can't be any larger than the gamut of the target used to create the profile
imagine yourself creating a simple matrix profile using for example a CC24 ColorChecker Classic target (with its quite low saturated patches)... but this is a matrix profile, there are no LUTs to clamp/limit the output of the color transform that is guided by that matrix
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 03:31:19 pm »

You do realize that the gamut of a profiled camera can't be any larger than the gamut of the target used to create the profile ...

The target is partly irrelevant because a profile is only using those target patches that are present to interpolate and, equally if not more important, extrapolate (all the way to a whiter white than the whitest reflective patch, and darker black than the darkest reflective patch with a veiling glare component). The full hull of the profile is larger than that of the most saturated patches of the target. How much larger the profile's gamut is, depends on how the profile was made. One can output with Capture One a capture of e.g. a CC24 target with the/a Camera profile attached, as is done for profiling. That will output the imageof the target without processing, and one could consider that embedded profile as the bare sensor profile, which has a gamut that can be plotted and compared.

Quote
... and it again has nothing to do with the processing color space (a real, colorimetric color space as Adobe defines for it's processing) used?

An input profile has everything to do with the processing working space, because it is converted from input space to workingspace / processing space. That Adobe supposedly described the space and Capture One did not explicitely is also irrelevant, they both use a space that is large enough (larger than the input profile gamut) to avoid clipping.

Quote
You do realize that the so called 'color' captured by camera sensor has no color gamut?

A color by itself has no gamut, but the colorspace that it is part of has a color gamut. Some of the camera's captured colors may be imaginary colors for human vision, but that's before processing and gamut mapping operations.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 03:43:34 pm »

The target is partly irrelevant because a profile is only using those target patches that are present to interpolate and, equally if not more important, extrapolate (all the way to a whiter white than the whitest reflective patch, and darker black than the darkest reflective patch with a veiling glare component).
The profile itself, the one(s) you mention are equally irrelevant in telling us anything about the processing color space I've requested info about. None the less, the target and it's gamut certainly play a role or X-rite wouldn't have somewhat struggled to create three of them over the years (one with a group of very saturated but glossy and difficult to capture patches).
Quote
A color by itself has no gamut, but the colorspace that it is part of has a color gamut.
Agreed so what is the color space and thus gamut of the processing color space in C1? The URL you provided tells us nothing about it, further, the statement: Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors, really? Nope.
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BobShaw

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Re: ICC Profile Choice - ProPhoto RGB
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 04:54:12 pm »

I actually see two ProPhoto RGB profiles. Does it matter which one is selected? How did two of them get there in the first place?
You will find that there is one in the system preferences and one in your user preferences.
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