A New Change For Luminous-Landscape

[GLJ]

Have you told the users of Wikipedia ... about this ?

Just to clarify here - is this the same Wikipedia that's just sent me (as someone who donated money to them in the past) another request for funding, on the basis that if they don't continually obtain this income stream, they will have to shut down ?

[Gary Damaskos]

I joined Lula a couple of years ago and found it very informative. However in the last year or so the forum has become a nasty place. There are a lot of high and mighty keyboard warriors who seem to have no purpose other to break down other peoples comments sentence by sentence and ridicule them. If people don't agree with someone else comment, then abuse is a gutless response.

I have no problem with the price but hope that there will be more moderation and a better atmosphere going forward.

I have been coming to this site since 1999. It has been very helpful to me. I do participate from time to time in the forum. But the forum is too often filled with not at all useful put downs and other forms of unnecessary nastiness in my experience. And further even in this discussion there are those that "justify" that behavior. Information gets exchanged best in "safe from insults and put down" environments - as does learning. Unfortunately from reading these posts here I do not believe Chris or Michael or Kevin see this as an issue needing addressing. For the record I do strongly feel it needs changing or I think of it as upgrading. I prefer environments where groups have learned to communicate well meaning judgmentally neutral perhaps. For a long time the yahoo group on Epson printers was very civil and a person being incorrect about something did not result in insulting corrections - instead information was presented and we all learned!  I am planning on trying out the year and see how it feels.   

Being part of a group with common values and civil respectful behavior is a blessing when one finds such a group. And can be an awesome resource.
Cheers
Gary

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... There are a lot of high and mighty keyboard warriors who seem to have no purpose other to break down other peoples comments sentence by sentence and ridicule them...

Bob,

The keyboard warrior "with no other purpose" you have in mind is, at the same time, a renown expert in his field, who frequently offers his highly esteemed expertise for free in these forums.

Another member of this forum is equally renown, a multiple book author, and highly esteemed expert in his field, yet is also quite well known for his abrasive debate style in forums (when and if provoked).

People come in packages, good with bad.

The question is, do we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Shall we ban the two prominent experts because they can behave, on occasion, nasty? Or shall we try to send them to a verbal-abuse rehab? Or simply man up and ignore it or respond in kind? One thing I can tell you ain't work: forcing them to change.

[Chris Kern]

Look, the Internet has changed..."free content" is usually worth what you pay for...I've seen a lot of free content and it pretty much sucks.

Have you told the users of Wikipedia and Linux about this ?

Wikipedia and Linux* are produced by volunteer contributors.  They are analogous to the Lu-La forum, which under the current plan will remain free.  It seems quite reasonable to me to charge a modest subscription fee for access to the site's other content, which consists of commissioned essays and videos or contributions by the site's maintainers.  Those who value that portion of the content sufficiently will subscribe.  Those who don't will still have full read-write access to the forum (with some minor restrictions).

____
* I'm not sure the Linux analogy is apposite in any event.  The GNU license which governs the release of the Linux kernel and some other parts of all Linux distributions explicitly allows distributors to charge for support as long as they continue to make the source code generally available.  And the providers of some of the best-known Linux distributions do indeed charge an annual license — i.e., subscription — fee.

[digitaldog]

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.”
― Thomas Jefferson

[Phil Indeblanc]

Just an update....THE FORUM WILL REMAIN FREE!!

(maybe revising the first post regarding the New Change can help those that don't read into the thread?)

[Mark Lindquist]

The question is, do we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Shall we ban the two prominent experts because they can behave, on occasion, nasty? Or shall we try to send them to a verbal-abuse rehab? Or simply man up and ignore it or respond in kind? One thing I can tell you ain't work: forcing them to change.

Hah!  Very funny - "verbal-abuse rehab"- there was a day when they called that "charm school".   Having been fortunate enough to have had many really gifted teachers, I have found that they have two things in common - short tempers and high opinions of themselves.  The way it works is pretty much, if you want to play you got to pay.  What can you say, "get thicker skin"?  Maybe so.

Edit: Removed anecdote re: 60's teaching methods because it apparently offended some.  The 1960's was a strange time for teaching, with encounter groups and a kind of directness mostly not present today (with the exception of really GREAT teachers, LOL).  If you weren't there in the 60's you can't really know about the times.  If you were there, chances are you won't remember most of it... (as has been said....)

[Martin Ocando]

I believe most of the detractors are missing the point that one of the things that makes this a very sweet deal are the instructional videos, which where all paid content already, and very expensive in comparison. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, I've paid more for videos than all the years I've been visiting LuLa multiplied by 12.

[John Hollenberg]

Having been fortunate enough to have had many really gifted teachers, I have found that they have two things in common - short tempers and high opinions of themselves. 

Not my experience.  Couldn't disagree more.  The really gifted teachers I have had have been brilliant, patient, and good communicators.

[Ray]

A video interview is a tortuous long winded slow way of conveying information. Mostly our audience doesn't have the time to sit through it. Video is at its best when you are showing your audience something it is difficult to describe with text. Text is quicker for simply telling them stuff.

I often get that impression myself when watching a video tutorial. I can't help thinking, "Get a move on. I haven't got all day. Be more clear and precise. Talk more quickly, and less 'errhhing, uhmming and aahing', please!

With text, one can more easily skip over any parts that one finds unnecessarily basic and spend more time reading and re-reading the difficult bits.

[BobShaw]

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Pretty sad, but I understand lot better now.

The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
Thomas Jefferson  - (30,000 Americans die each year shot by other Americans, often in the same family.)

law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.
Thomas Jefferson

Maybe a lot of the things he said are not relevant today and hopefully not here.

[drmike]

Not my experience.  Couldn't disagree more.  The really gifted teachers I have had have been brilliant, patient, and good communicators.

I totally agree John and my experience has been the same. Abuse and bullying would seem to be a barrier to communication rather than promote it.

[Schewe]

Abuse and bullying would seem to be a barrier to communication rather than promote it.

Care to point out where I was abusive vs. verbally aggressive? I know where the lines are and I tend to come right up to them and don't cross them Others may and I may get grouped with them but I am not with them...when somebody says something, uh, ignorant, is it not proper ti point that out? Or is that bullying?

[drmike]

I have no idea what you are talking about I was simply saying I agree with John Holenburg regarding a comment he made I thought  about a pottery teacher whacking his pupil. I am clearly quite mistaken and for that I apologise.

I seem to have caused some offence so I unreservedly apologise. It is my own ineptitude within forums and my poor use of English that seems to get me into these situations. No offence was intended and I regret being so clumsy as to have given any.

Mike

[Schewe]

I have no idea what you are talking about I was simply saying I agree with John Holenburg regarding a comment he made I thought  about a pottery teacher whacking his pupil. I am clearly quite mistaken and for that I apologise.

Accepted and in not directed at me, I also apologize for overreacting...

[drmike]

Given that I quoted someone else I am struggling to see how it could be directed at you, except very indirectly and there was no criticism of anyone just on teaching methods. However, I do accept that I was probably inept at best or stupid at worst and will be less swift to join any discussion without a lot more thought and care.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Having been fortunate enough to have had many really gifted teachers, I have found that they have two things in common - short tempers and high opinions of themselves.

Not my experience.  Couldn't disagree more.  The really gifted teachers I have had have been brilliant, patient, and good communicators.

Perhaps we can conclude that skill at teaching is at best loosely related either to length of temper or extent of egotism. I've certainly had good teachers whose personalities cover pretty much all of the spectrum.

Or maybe people learn best in differing environments and with differing teaching methods.

Jeremy

[Mark Lindquist]

Perhaps we can conclude that skill at teaching is at best loosely related either to length of temper or extent of egotism. I've certainly had good teachers whose personalities cover pretty much all of the spectrum.

Or maybe people learn best in differing environments and with differing teaching methods.

Jeremy

Excellent observations, sir.  I believe that some teachers are extremely passionate about what they believe, hence the "my way or the highway" approach.  Additionally, there are only two modes of teaching:  Instruction and Correction.  To instruct AND correct requires passion that often instructors today are hesitant to evidence given the climate of political correctness and litigious society we live in.  In every area of endeavor, teaching methods vary, and within those modes of imparting wisdom and knowledge are various degrees of techniques.  The old saying goes:  "When the teacher is ready, the student appears", or is it:  "When the student is ready, the teacher appears".  Perhaps both.  Students that do not ask hard questions or provoke hard responses from instructors do not necessarily get the full experience.  Perhaps during the period prior to 45 years of my career with the teachers I have had, and the mentors I have had along the way, I have asked hard questions and sometimes elicited hard responses.  In so doing, I have had an unusual and in my opinion interesting learning experience with my teachers, many of whom I believe to have been exceptional.

Your comment about different people learning in different environments is wise - I think you're right.  We all learn in our own ways.

[digitaldog]

Others may and I may get grouped with them but I am not with them...when somebody says something, uh, ignorant, is it not proper ti point that out? Or is that bullying?

To the ignorant, it's their idea of bullying.

To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.
-Benjamin Disraeli

[Gary Damaskos]

I totally agree John and my experience has been the same. Abuse and bullying would seem to be a barrier to communication rather than promote it.

I agree with John, Bob, drmike. Abuse and bullying were very common in both households and public life up through at least the 70s, then things began a slow shift. Bullying in all it's forms is now more openly discussed and being considered what it is - an abhorrent behavior that shuts down constructive communication / civil discourse. The other thing I wish to say is that NO ONE here actually knows just how many awesome participants don't post because of this behavior we are discussing in here. It is predictable of course that someone will explain their absence by the fact that those persons are "insert derogatory adjective". My only intent in bothering to post again here on this is that a truly open civil forum is a wonderful thing - I have experienced and still do experience them - and this site COULD be one of them, many ingredients are present. Unfortunately many ingredients are present to kill it. Actually I am thinking going to subscription could end up making the whole thing worse. Only time will answer this.
I am done with this.