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Author Topic: Capture One Pro 8's keyword tool is useless - no comparison to Lightroom's tool  (Read 9545 times)

David Mantripp

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The document library (in your case Catalog) should be populated with keywords from images present in that document.  If that is not the case, then we need to find out why.  I would suggest making a support case.


According to your own forums, I'm not the only one having this issue.  So far nobody has actually reported that it works, at least not without an utterly absurd workaround. 

It would appear that PhaseOne doesn't have a database expert on the staff...
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David Mantripp

Bob Rockefeller

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Might just as well enter a support case, if you haven't already, just to be sure it's officially on their list.

The list is long and support response has noticeably slowed over the last few days, so I'm guessing their seeing lots of CO9 related traffic.
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Bob Rockefeller
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budjames

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Try C1P9, the update released this week, with their all new keyword tools. They are a great improvement over the keyboarding capabilities of C1P8.

Bud
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Bud James
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David Mantripp

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Try C1P9, the update released this week, with their all new keyword tools. They are a great improvement over the keyboarding capabilities of C1P8.

Bud

Bud, try reading recent posts before replying....
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David Mantripp

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Bud, try reading recent posts before replying....

So David,

Did you file a support case, or are you waiting for others (with maybe other hardware/software issues) to do so? If you leave it to others, that might not solve what's causing your particular issue.

Cheers,
Bart
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The View

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Well, I'll be upgrading to v9.

Hopefully the keyword tool will work - in v8 it was completely useless.

Let's say this: I choose C1 for its image processing quality.

And I put up with the rest because of it.

But it's getting difficult. I do a lot of compositing, and I need keywords to find the material for it.

Hopefull, v9 has achieved at least a basic keywording tool.

At least the basics: apply keywords to a set of pictures, copy a keyword set from one picture and apply it to another or a set of others, search a complete catalog for images who are tagged with a certain keywor.d
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Bob Rockefeller

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At least the basics: apply keywords to a set of pictures, copy a keyword set from one picture and apply it to another or a set of others, search a complete catalog for images who are tagged with a certain keyword.

Using keywords in much improved in v9. I think you'll find that it will cover those basics.

I'm seeing some weirdness for images that already have keywords applied elsewhere, and have a support ticket in, but overall keywords are a welcome improvement.
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Bob Rockefeller
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David Mantripp

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So David,

Did you file a support case, or are you waiting for others (with maybe other hardware/software issues) to do so? If you leave it to others, that might not solve what's causing your particular issue.

Cheers,
Bart


Honestly Bart, no I didn't. Several reasons - in the past I have taken the trouble to fill support cases, and have seen them dismissed out of hand. Just deleted / closed with no feedback. At present I'm committed to Lr, and while a CO license owner (since v3.something) I don't at present have much skin in the game, and I have zero interest in investing what very little time I have for photography in paying to beta test CO9. If David Glover et al cannot see the myriad things wrong with the clumsy kludge of half of MediaPro into CO9, then they need the services of an optician, not a support case.

Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.

This thing about “you have no right to complain if you don’t file a support case”, insinuating “we’re only going to fix stuff that customers have provided the test data for” is unbelievable, really. But everybody can make their own choices.
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LJHLULA

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I too believe that V8 Key wording was pretty dire but I assume it was laying the foundations for V9. V9 is a vast improvement. Indeed, I've imported the Keyword text from my LR catalogue and now have a 'Master Copy' to use when allocating Keywords in the V9 catalogue. Up until now, using V8, I've been using a common image database where CP1 was used for raw ingress/processing and LR for Cataloguing [syncing files/folders where necessary]. V9 has now allowed me to swing my whole image workflow around to V9. So far I've had no issues whatsoever. Well, perhaps one in that CP1 is very resource hungry, hopefully fixed with 9.0.1
I use the NEF format so can’t comment on other formats.

Adobe [in my opinion] is driving Lightroom towards the Prosumer/Consumer market and if that’s where the money lies, fair enough. For example, why on earth would a Pro want green Pet Eye reduction or Face Recognition.
On the other hand, Phase One is staying true to form and developing a product that is very much oriented toward the professional and by default a slightly harder learning curve. If they can get DAM fully under control and I believe they are almost there, they have a winner.

Lyndon
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Jimmy D Uptain

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Honestly Bart, no I didn't. Several reasons - in the past I have taken the trouble to fill support cases, and have seen them dismissed out of hand. Just deleted / closed with no feedback. At present I'm committed to Lr, and while a CO license owner (since v3.something) I don't at present have much skin in the game, and I have zero interest in investing what very little time I have for photography in paying to beta test CO9. If David Glover et al cannot see the myriad things wrong with the clumsy kludge of half of MediaPro into CO9, then they need the services of an optician, not a support case.

Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.

This thing about “you have no right to complain if you don’t file a support case”, insinuating “we’re only going to fix stuff that customers have provided the test data for” is unbelievable, really. But everybody can make their own choices.

Bravo sir!!!!
Wish they had applause emoticons  ;D
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Bob Rockefeller

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Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.

Cynical, or just slow to implement new DAM features? I have hit some bugs with CO9 keywords, so I suppose it is less than fully baked. But they do seem to be (slowly) adding DAM features and may some day get to Lr standards. But it might be version 10 or 11, sadly.
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Bob Rockefeller
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lewisl

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@ Bart

I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images.  Sorry--doesn't work.

Drag to filter label in filters panel works.  It's easy enough.  It is certainly strange.  No other "adjustments" work in such a way.  It seems the logic is that this is like "moving" or "copying" images to a collection.  All images with a given tag/keyword do define a collection.  There is a certain logic in it.

The problem is not the inconsistency with "other products". Certainly to be as peculiar as possible is a strange virtue--sometimes "other products"--especially when it is multiple other products--represent good ideas.  Not always of course, but just sometimes. The inconsistency issue is really within Capture One itself.  There is a whole tab with several tools devoted to managing metadata.  It would seem consistent to assign keywords there and inconsistent to use a filtering tool for assignment.

We sometimes find virtue in a product if the methods of using its features are discoverable through use of the product.  This is not always possible.  It is very valuable to watch the short tutorial videos.  I'd prefer to read but when the task is a sequence of actions, the text would require multiple diagrams.  The videos are mercifully short so it is very productive to watch for 3-4 minutes and really understand how C1 works.   Over time, you'd expect a product to have a sort of vocabulary or methodological approach in which methods generalize and apply in several places.  When many tasks that could have common methods seem to have arbitrarily divergent methods, the product is jarring.  C1 has a few such tasks.

You seem to apologize more for C1 than Phase One employees who are more forthcoming on Phase One's own forums.  I do understand evangelizing for a product you use and admire.  Maybe acknowledging good points of C1 (many!) while also acknowledging weak points (some) could generate more support.  Software is complicated and written by humans; it can't be perfect.  All products have inconveniences.  You are correct that we prefer the inconveniences we know to new, unfamiliar inconveniences.  But, it feels off-putting to deny that inconveniences exist.  It's not credible. The good news is that products improve.  "Other products" have improved.  C1 has improved immeasurably over its releases;  it will continue to improve.  So, it is not a terrible concession to admit some need for additional refinement.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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@ Bart

I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images.  Sorry--doesn't work.

Hi,

Depends on what you exactly want to achieve and how you go about doing it. Copying an identical set of settings is consistent throughout C1 (all individual tools have a little diagonal double arrow at the upper right of the tool for copying tool settings, as does the Keywords tool). Adding to an existing set of parameters is something different than copying and overriding settings (and one can usually select what to include and what not on the adjustments overview).

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Drag to filter label in filters panel works.  It's easy enough.
 

Yes, that's a way to add keywords, although version 9 has added a lot of new functionality to manage key-wording, compared to version 8 we were discussing in this month(s) old thread here. In V9 one can click on a keyword for it to be added to the selected variants, and one can delete whole hierarchies by the click of a mouse button.

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The problem is not the inconsistency with "other products". Certainly to be as peculiar as possible is a strange virtue--sometimes "other products"--especially when it is multiple other products--represent good ideas.  Not always of course, but just sometimes. The inconsistency issue is really within Capture One itself.  There is a whole tab with several tools devoted to managing metadata.  It would seem consistent to assign keywords there and inconsistent to use a filtering tool for assignment.

I'm not sure I follow. Filtering tool for assignment of keywords? And as to "other products" they may have patents to protect some ways of doing things, so other methods may need to be found. And from my experience with managing change processes, shedding old habits is one of the hardest things when learning a new tool or skill. That also makes it difficult for people who are merely trying out the new product, but remain using their old/current product. As I said, immersing oneself in the new methodology may reveal some benefits, or inconveniences, in workflow or resulting quality. Both can be used to improve (either oneself or by suggesting feature requests).

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You seem to apologize more for C1 than Phase One employees who are more forthcoming on Phase One's own forums.


To quote myself from post no. 18 in this thread:
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Are there any improvements possible? Sure there are, both technical and in user interface. But as we can also see, such improvements are continuously being made/added.

And the improvements in version 9 show that. Is it perfect now? No there is more that can be done, and I assume it will be dealt with over time, also based on user feedback (which is why I suggested to raise feature requests with a Support case).

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I do understand evangelizing for a product you use and admire.  Maybe acknowledging good points of C1 (many!) while also acknowledging weak points (some) could generate more support.  Software is complicated and written by humans; it can't be perfect.  All products have inconveniences.  You are correct that we prefer the inconveniences we know to new, unfamiliar inconveniences.  But, it feels off-putting to deny that inconveniences exist.  It's not credible.

I'm not denying issues if they exist, and I also said that improvements are possible. Some issues are caused by bugs, some are due to hardware acceleration, others are due to user unfamiliarity with a different (not always, but maybe better) workflow, and some need a revision/redesign of the tool.

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The good news is that products improve.  "Other products" have improved.  C1 has improved immeasurably over its releases;  it will continue to improve.  So, it is not a terrible concession to admit some need for additional refinement.

I agree. Frankly, I'm still a bit surprised that the acquisition of Media Pro hasn't been integrated faster into the C1 environment. Maybe Phase One is trying to do something that will be better in the end, I don't know. But I also have no idea what the user feedback signals are doing to the prioritization of many improvement areas. I have several requests myself (more to do with sharpening, and layering, and darkframe subtraction), but it will only have a chance of being implemented if enough users ask for it (or the development team 'see the light'), but I've already said so in my earlier posts.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bob Rockefeller

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I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images.  Sorry--doesn't work.

Have you experimented with the trial copy of version 9? Keywords are better, but still not completely there. And mildly buggy. But maybe it will do what you need now?

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Bob Rockefeller
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