Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: The View on November 12, 2015, 06:22:45 pm
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It is simply not usable, and not even working in many instances.
Want to apply one keyword to 30 files? You'd think you select all the images, type in the keyword, and hit enter, and that's it.
No, it isn't.
It applies the keyword only to one image, not all selected.
You also have to type it always. No way to drag and drop keywords like in Lightroom.
The interface of the keyword tool is beyond bad. I super tiny field with super tiny letters. Horrible to use. It also leaves a weird, big space below, and pushes other tools down.
A good keyword tool has been with Lightroom since version 1 (which I bought back then).
I like Capture One's Processing capabilities and output quality.
But why can't Phase One keyword tool that is more than just a waste of time? Copy the one in Lightroom, for Christ's sake, then you have something that works well.
Particularly that brush in Lightroom is great where you can easily apply keywords to other files. Even in version 1 keywording was a breeze and as close to fun as keywording can get.
We are in version 8 of the software, but the keyword tool still feels as if it's not even ready for beta.
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It is simply not usable, and not even working in many instances.
Want to apply one keyword to 30 files? You'd think you select all the images, type in the keyword, and hit enter, and that's it.
No, it isn't.
It applies the keyword only to one image, not all selected.
Hi,
I can understand the frustration, but C1 doesn't work the same way as LR, so you need to forget and not try to do things the same way. C1 uses a consistent method of copying/pasting parameters from one file (the primary variant) to other files (the other variants), across all tools. Maybe it's a better method, although slightly less convenient, but also less error prone. C1 makes sure that changes to other files are deliberate, not accidental (because other files were also selected). It also allows to selectively copy/paste some of the metadata, and not all (unless desired).
You also have to type it always. No way to drag and drop keywords like in Lightroom.
Again, convenient but risky. One could experience a (human or machine) glitch during dragging, and accidentally dropping it in the wrong place. With the Copy/Paste method (2 mouse clicks) that risk is avoided.
The interface of the keyword tool is beyond bad. I super tiny field with super tiny letters. Horrible to use. It also leaves a weird, big space below, and pushes other tools down.
There are always improvements possible, but don't forget that most of the keywording and such can/should already be done while importing. So we usually are talking about afterthoughts, corrections, or new uses/insights to be added afterwards. Of course workflows differ, and some folks first import and only then start thinking about doing some bookkeeping. Whatever works best, but it never hurts to do some soul-searching and perhaps revise the old workflow if another one makes (more) sense.
Cheers,
Bart
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Phase One knows the keyword part of the C1 is not the best (to say the least). I know this is a priority for them and most likely will be addressed in the next version.
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Phase One knows the keyword part of the C1 is not the best (to say the least). I know this is a priority for them and most likely will be addressed in the next version.
I hope so, Kevin.
Given up again. It's just not possible to tag more than one image at a time.
I wish all those bugs would be ironed out before releasing a new version.
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It's just not possible to tag more than one image at a time.
Drag and drop multiple images onto a keyword (in the Filter Tool) and it will tag those images with that keyword.
Perhaps you could look into a Capture One class (https://digitaltransitions.com/event/training/capture-one-masters-program-advanced-workflow). I think it would definitely reduce your stress and issues in using C1 to its fullest.
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I don't think that a class should be necessary to use keywords efficiently. I also think that Phase One should moderate the enthusiastic writing of its marketing people as some claims are borderline , and let's not even go into MediaPro...
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The means to copy keywords and other adjustments are well documented in the on line help as well as in tutorials at the Phase One website. While a class should not be necessary, due diligence in investigating how to use C1 is not an unreasonable expectation.
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Drag and drop multiple images onto a keyword (in the Filter Tool) and it will tag those images with that keyword.
Perhaps you could look into a Capture One class (https://digitaltransitions.com/event/training/capture-one-masters-program-advanced-workflow). I think it would definitely reduce your stress and issues in using C1 to its fullest.
I don't need a class. I have aced many university courses without being present by self-study. It's not that I can't get the information, it's that the tool in many cases simply doesn't work. It's an embarrassment to the word "workflow" and I more associate "time thief" with it.
But I'll try to pull images onto keywords, as selecting images and entering keywords definitely does not work.
The tool needs a complete makeover. There is no way around it.
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C1P can assign one ore more keywords to multiple image. Select all pictures that you want to same keyword assigned, then click on the second icon on the right (two arrows) and click on apply. Just make sure that the keyword is selected inside the box. This process works reliably, but needs an additional step.Also, make sure that you add the keywords to the selected image, the one with the bright frame.
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C1P can assign one ore more keywords to multiple image. Select all pictures that you want to same keyword assigned, then click on the second icon on the right (two arrows) and click on apply. Just make sure that the keyword is selected inside the box. This process works reliably, but needs an additional step.Also, make sure that you add the keywords to the selected image, the one with the bright frame.
This will replace any previously assigned keywords in the other images selected.
Please see my post above for the correct method to add keywords to multiple images, without removing any keywords from said images.
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Apologies if this seems off topic but, as I see it, what I'm about to describe falls into much the same space. Regarding Capture One's keywording capabilities, I never use them. Put more succinctly, Capture One's handling of image metadata leaves much to be desired. Or, to be kind, not quite IPTC compliant.
To explain, in my image prep workflow, usually use Adobe's Bridge to rename and grade/select my images and to add basic metadata and keywords. In the process, add this verbiage to the RIGHTS USAGE TERMS field: "This is a Rights Managed image. Usage and fees must be agreed on prior to any use. Any use requires a license clearly stating the type of use, where, for how long, all applicable licensing fees and the full payment thereof. Any unlicensed commercial use, any unlicensed publication or any unauthorised reproductions, likenesses, redistribution, or exploitation for personal or corporate gain is strictly prohibited". Verbose perhaps but, that's my choice and its there for all to see - for those who can or get to see it.
Once Capture One has finished with my metadata (as applied in Bridge and is read my every other application I use that can read and write metadata), this is what I get, or rather, this is what I am left with in that same space after prepping/processing my RAW file in Capture One: "This is a Rights Managed image. Usage and fees must be agreed o". Blam and that's it. The rest has gone. Maybe the good folk a Phase One are "clipping" this space for some other purpose? Who knows?
This issue goes back to version 5 and maybe earlier. I have brought this matter to the attention of technical support several times and, its still there in the latest version of Capture One. I mean, really, given this product's maturity?
In the greater scheme of things, this might just be a "blemish" but its still a mark on what is otherwise a good product. Being a Fuji camera shooter, Capture One stands alone when comes to processing Fuji's brand of RAW images. At the moment I have a major exhibition up and running and where the prints have been enlarged to 24 inches along their longest edge. I attribute sharpness and acuity of the images in these prints to using Capture One - this to be fair. Would be nice to see this minor issue fixed for once and for all.
TIA
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They've made significant improvements to keywords in v9 (one of the major differences). I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but it looks suspiciously like they got it from Media Pro. Are they integrating Media Pro into C1? Maybe, and it would make a lot of sense...
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Looks like two steps forward, one step back, to me. Or possibly the reverse.
First, the Document (Catalog) Keyword Library isn't populated with the keywords from the Catalog itself. That's just plain baffling. And you can't even import the keywords, as "the catalog is already open".
The new keywords features are potentially an improvement, but... now we have Keywords, Keywords Library and Keywords Filter (have I missed any ?) - Library & Filter should be combined, as in Lightroom, Aperture and indeed Media Pro. Isn't that just screamingly obvious ? How complicated does it need to be made ?
Also, the "slugs" that contain the keywords are too big, taking up too much UI real estate, and are quickly going to get unmanageable. The nesting of keywords seems to work well - I haven't yet dared to see if they've managed to get merging to work.
(still) not ready for production work. Sadly.
(oh, and as for "no comparison to Lightroom's tool", well THAT bar wasn't set very high :-) )
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Looks like two steps forward, one step back, to me. Or possibly the reverse.
First, the Document (Catalog) Keyword Library isn't populated with the keywords from the Catalog itself. That's just plain baffling. And you can't even import the keywords, as "the catalog is already open".
The new keywords features are potentially an improvement, but... now we have Keywords, Keywords Library and Keywords Filter (have I missed any ?) - Library & Filter should be combined, as in Lightroom, Aperture and indeed Media Pro. Isn't that just screamingly obvious ? How complicated does it need to be made ?
Also, the "slugs" that contain the keywords are too big, taking up too much UI real estate, and are quickly going to get unmanageable. The nesting of keywords seems to work well - I haven't yet dared to see if they've managed to get merging to work.
(still) not ready for production work. Sadly.
(oh, and as for "no comparison to Lightroom's tool", well THAT bar wasn't set very high :-) )
Hi David,
The document library (in your case Catalog) should be populated with keywords from images present in that document. If that is not the case, then we need to find out why. I would suggest making a support case.
If you want filtering in the same tab - then simply add the Filters tool and decide what filters you want to use. Adding by default to the Keyword tool wouldn't make sense.
D
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Hi David,
The document library (in your case Catalog) should be populated with keywords from images present in that document. If that is not the case, then we need to find out why. I would suggest making a support case.
If you want filtering in the same tab - then simply add the Filters tool and decide what filters you want to use. Adding by default to the Keyword tool wouldn't make sense.
D
Well, I haven't decided to upgrade yet. The LUMA curve is very, very welcome, but it would be significantly better DAM that did it for me.
As for filtering, both Aperture and Lightroom have a keyword list/manager which allows you to select photos tagged with given keywords as well. C1 v9 has this split between two tools, with very different UI detailing, and that seems pretty clunky to me. Sorry, but PhaseOne does own the grandaddy of all "prosumer" DAM apps.... take a look at how it works, sometime.
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I am not sure what you are concerned about. I imported my LR catalog into a C1 V9 catalog and then used the filter to find a specific images with a specific keyword. It worked flawlessly. How is it different from LR where you have the keyword catalog, the keywords for a specific image and the keyword filter within the Library module. It seems to me it is just a matter of where this is all placed within the UI
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You can always do what I do, use C1 in Sessions for developing, and then doe evrything else in LR.
The frustrations have been voiced for about a decade, and the concusion was at the time /about 5 years ago that C1 is made to be hard to use so Digital Techs would be exclusive with proprietary like software. This would make it hard for the common folk to simply pick it up and learn. But with a lot of changes in the industry I think it would be wise to make the software easier to use. While most other applications work in the standard practice of the OS layout where tools are C1 does not follow many of these standards. They can also help sales of training classes, and keep digital techs at work. The interface and its fields have no clear defining boarders to define one thing from another, so your eye is just seeing text.
I have used the software since the first versions. I have also done the classes and unless it is the only software you use, its VERY easy to slip out of the C1 mindset and get back to the OS standard and Adobe way of interacting with the application. I still have confusion simply in selecting a folder for output...it forces an extra step and easily confused with the other field below it. Yet to try v9, but I have doubts that it is easier to use.
Keywording is the not always good to do when importing as there are many folks who use other importing tools, besides that often we can think of different categories for images as we work and then decide keywords. But I totally can understand what Bart is saying, and you just have to stop and think as C1 wants you to think, and this does take some training, either from video clips that are readily available or training. They are worth it for developing.
So, I would suggest, use it for developing, and then manage with LR or alternate.
I do hope this exclusive appraoch changes at some point, as I think it needs to in order to not clash everytime with new users.
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The frustrations have been voiced for about a decade, and the concusion was at the time /about 5 years ago that C1 is made to be hard to use so Digital Techs would be exclusive with proprietary like software. This would make it hard for the common folk to simply pick it up and learn. But with a lot of changes in the industry I think it would be wise to make the software easier to use. While most other applications work in the standard practice of the OS layout where tools are C1 does not follow many of these standards. They can also help sales of training classes, and keep digital techs at work. The interface and its fields have no clear defining boarders to define one thing from another, so your eye is just seeing text.
Phil,
There is no 'conspiracy' theory that C1 is 'hard to use' to keep Digital Tech's in work. Its actually a disservice to what a Digital Tech does on set. They are not simply a software driver but carry out an extremely important role.
If you have created your own clear set of Process Recipes which are repeatable and require no decision once made - you should not be getting confused about Output folders.
David
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I am not sure what you are concerned about. I imported my LR catalog into a C1 V9 catalog and then used the filter to find a specific images with a specific keyword. It worked flawlessly. How is it different from LR where you have the keyword catalog, the keywords for a specific image and the keyword filter within the Library module. It seems to me it is just a matter of where this is all placed within the UI
Yes, one of the difficulties in switching between applications is forgetting how things were done in the old interface. One should get immersed in the new environment, it may actually make more sense when one is used to it. If not, there is always a possibility to raise feature requests in the Capture One fora on the Phase One site.
Are there any improvements possible? Sure there are, both technical and in user interface. But as we can also see, such improvements are continuously being made/added. Important to remember is that the workflow improvements are adding on one of the best Raw conversions available, so the foundation is quite solid and building on that is more logical than on a shaky foundation. The icing on the cake is a nice attribute, but it's not that important if the cake is lacking.
I'm very pleased with the Raw conversion quality which is an essential prerequisite, and the tools to work on that are also better than they used to be.
Cheers,
Bart
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Phil,
There is no 'conspiracy' theory that C1 is 'hard to use' to keep Digital Tech's in work. Its actually a disservice to what a Digital Tech does on set. They are not simply a software driver but carry out an extremely important role.
If you have created your own clear set of Process Recipes which are repeatable and require no decision once made - you should not be getting confused about Output folders.
David
That was the response, or at least the gist of... from at least one person that had some insight. It was a post some time back. It may have been more on the training part. Surely speculative, but when something boggles the mind, sometimes people try harder to make sense of things. And this is not a new response that C1 is just out of the standards spectrum. Since it changed from a tether capture and had a coomplete make over, it has been a different animal. Even the old version with simple interface was at least following some standards. Anyway....Not my theory, but if the shoe fits....? :-)
Again, I actually love C1 for a number of things. It is why I process my important work with it. But the GUI, and diversion from OS standards is certainly not one of them.
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The document library (in your case Catalog) should be populated with keywords from images present in that document. If that is not the case, then we need to find out why. I would suggest making a support case.
According to your own forums, I'm not the only one having this issue. So far nobody has actually reported that it works, at least not without an utterly absurd workaround.
It would appear that PhaseOne doesn't have a database expert on the staff...
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Might just as well enter a support case, if you haven't already, just to be sure it's officially on their list.
The list is long and support response has noticeably slowed over the last few days, so I'm guessing their seeing lots of CO9 related traffic.
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Try C1P9, the update released this week, with their all new keyword tools. They are a great improvement over the keyboarding capabilities of C1P8.
Bud
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Try C1P9, the update released this week, with their all new keyword tools. They are a great improvement over the keyboarding capabilities of C1P8.
Bud
Bud, try reading recent posts before replying....
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Bud, try reading recent posts before replying....
So David,
Did you file a support case, or are you waiting for others (with maybe other hardware/software issues) to do so? If you leave it to others, that might not solve what's causing your particular issue.
Cheers,
Bart
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Well, I'll be upgrading to v9.
Hopefully the keyword tool will work - in v8 it was completely useless.
Let's say this: I choose C1 for its image processing quality.
And I put up with the rest because of it.
But it's getting difficult. I do a lot of compositing, and I need keywords to find the material for it.
Hopefull, v9 has achieved at least a basic keywording tool.
At least the basics: apply keywords to a set of pictures, copy a keyword set from one picture and apply it to another or a set of others, search a complete catalog for images who are tagged with a certain keywor.d
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At least the basics: apply keywords to a set of pictures, copy a keyword set from one picture and apply it to another or a set of others, search a complete catalog for images who are tagged with a certain keyword.
Using keywords in much improved in v9. I think you'll find that it will cover those basics.
I'm seeing some weirdness for images that already have keywords applied elsewhere, and have a support ticket in, but overall keywords are a welcome improvement.
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So David,
Did you file a support case, or are you waiting for others (with maybe other hardware/software issues) to do so? If you leave it to others, that might not solve what's causing your particular issue.
Cheers,
Bart
Honestly Bart, no I didn't. Several reasons - in the past I have taken the trouble to fill support cases, and have seen them dismissed out of hand. Just deleted / closed with no feedback. At present I'm committed to Lr, and while a CO license owner (since v3.something) I don't at present have much skin in the game, and I have zero interest in investing what very little time I have for photography in paying to beta test CO9. If David Glover et al cannot see the myriad things wrong with the clumsy kludge of half of MediaPro into CO9, then they need the services of an optician, not a support case.
Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.
This thing about “you have no right to complain if you don’t file a support case”, insinuating “we’re only going to fix stuff that customers have provided the test data for” is unbelievable, really. But everybody can make their own choices.
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I too believe that V8 Key wording was pretty dire but I assume it was laying the foundations for V9. V9 is a vast improvement. Indeed, I've imported the Keyword text from my LR catalogue and now have a 'Master Copy' to use when allocating Keywords in the V9 catalogue. Up until now, using V8, I've been using a common image database where CP1 was used for raw ingress/processing and LR for Cataloguing [syncing files/folders where necessary]. V9 has now allowed me to swing my whole image workflow around to V9. So far I've had no issues whatsoever. Well, perhaps one in that CP1 is very resource hungry, hopefully fixed with 9.0.1
I use the NEF format so can’t comment on other formats.
Adobe [in my opinion] is driving Lightroom towards the Prosumer/Consumer market and if that’s where the money lies, fair enough. For example, why on earth would a Pro want green Pet Eye reduction or Face Recognition.
On the other hand, Phase One is staying true to form and developing a product that is very much oriented toward the professional and by default a slightly harder learning curve. If they can get DAM fully under control and I believe they are almost there, they have a winner.
Lyndon
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Honestly Bart, no I didn't. Several reasons - in the past I have taken the trouble to fill support cases, and have seen them dismissed out of hand. Just deleted / closed with no feedback. At present I'm committed to Lr, and while a CO license owner (since v3.something) I don't at present have much skin in the game, and I have zero interest in investing what very little time I have for photography in paying to beta test CO9. If David Glover et al cannot see the myriad things wrong with the clumsy kludge of half of MediaPro into CO9, then they need the services of an optician, not a support case.
Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.
This thing about “you have no right to complain if you don’t file a support case”, insinuating “we’re only going to fix stuff that customers have provided the test data for” is unbelievable, really. But everybody can make their own choices.
Bravo sir!!!!
Wish they had applause emoticons ;D
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Seems pretty cynical to me to rush out what is clearly (yet) another half-baked iteration of a useful DAM. The processing part of CaptureOne is very good, but the rest is - still - totally unsuitable for serious work.
Cynical, or just slow to implement new DAM features? I have hit some bugs with CO9 keywords, so I suppose it is less than fully baked. But they do seem to be (slowly) adding DAM features and may some day get to Lr standards. But it might be version 10 or 11, sadly.
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@ Bart
I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images. Sorry--doesn't work.
Drag to filter label in filters panel works. It's easy enough. It is certainly strange. No other "adjustments" work in such a way. It seems the logic is that this is like "moving" or "copying" images to a collection. All images with a given tag/keyword do define a collection. There is a certain logic in it.
The problem is not the inconsistency with "other products". Certainly to be as peculiar as possible is a strange virtue--sometimes "other products"--especially when it is multiple other products--represent good ideas. Not always of course, but just sometimes. The inconsistency issue is really within Capture One itself. There is a whole tab with several tools devoted to managing metadata. It would seem consistent to assign keywords there and inconsistent to use a filtering tool for assignment.
We sometimes find virtue in a product if the methods of using its features are discoverable through use of the product. This is not always possible. It is very valuable to watch the short tutorial videos. I'd prefer to read but when the task is a sequence of actions, the text would require multiple diagrams. The videos are mercifully short so it is very productive to watch for 3-4 minutes and really understand how C1 works. Over time, you'd expect a product to have a sort of vocabulary or methodological approach in which methods generalize and apply in several places. When many tasks that could have common methods seem to have arbitrarily divergent methods, the product is jarring. C1 has a few such tasks.
You seem to apologize more for C1 than Phase One employees who are more forthcoming on Phase One's own forums. I do understand evangelizing for a product you use and admire. Maybe acknowledging good points of C1 (many!) while also acknowledging weak points (some) could generate more support. Software is complicated and written by humans; it can't be perfect. All products have inconveniences. You are correct that we prefer the inconveniences we know to new, unfamiliar inconveniences. But, it feels off-putting to deny that inconveniences exist. It's not credible. The good news is that products improve. "Other products" have improved. C1 has improved immeasurably over its releases; it will continue to improve. So, it is not a terrible concession to admit some need for additional refinement.
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@ Bart
I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images. Sorry--doesn't work.
Hi,
Depends on what you exactly want to achieve and how you go about doing it. Copying an identical set of settings is consistent throughout C1 (all individual tools have a little diagonal double arrow at the upper right of the tool for copying tool settings, as does the Keywords tool). Adding to an existing set of parameters is something different than copying and overriding settings (and one can usually select what to include and what not on the adjustments overview).
Drag to filter label in filters panel works. It's easy enough.
Yes, that's a way to add keywords, although version 9 has added a lot of new functionality to manage key-wording, compared to version 8 we were discussing in this month(s) old thread here. In V9 one can click on a keyword for it to be added to the selected variants, and one can delete whole hierarchies by the click of a mouse button.
The problem is not the inconsistency with "other products". Certainly to be as peculiar as possible is a strange virtue--sometimes "other products"--especially when it is multiple other products--represent good ideas. Not always of course, but just sometimes. The inconsistency issue is really within Capture One itself. There is a whole tab with several tools devoted to managing metadata. It would seem consistent to assign keywords there and inconsistent to use a filtering tool for assignment.
I'm not sure I follow. Filtering tool for assignment of keywords? And as to "other products" they may have patents to protect some ways of doing things, so other methods may need to be found. And from my experience with managing change processes, shedding old habits is one of the hardest things when learning a new tool or skill. That also makes it difficult for people who are merely trying out the new product, but remain using their old/current product. As I said, immersing oneself in the new methodology may reveal some benefits, or inconveniences, in workflow or resulting quality. Both can be used to improve (either oneself or by suggesting feature requests).
You seem to apologize more for C1 than Phase One employees who are more forthcoming on Phase One's own forums.
To quote myself from post no. 18 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105389.msg873733#msg873733) in this thread:
Are there any improvements possible? Sure there are, both technical and in user interface. But as we can also see, such improvements are continuously being made/added.
And the improvements in version 9 show that. Is it perfect now? No there is more that can be done, and I assume it will be dealt with over time, also based on user feedback (which is why I suggested to raise feature requests with a Support case).
I do understand evangelizing for a product you use and admire. Maybe acknowledging good points of C1 (many!) while also acknowledging weak points (some) could generate more support. Software is complicated and written by humans; it can't be perfect. All products have inconveniences. You are correct that we prefer the inconveniences we know to new, unfamiliar inconveniences. But, it feels off-putting to deny that inconveniences exist. It's not credible.
I'm not denying issues if they exist, and I also said that improvements are possible. Some issues are caused by bugs, some are due to hardware acceleration, others are due to user unfamiliarity with a different (not always, but maybe better) workflow, and some need a revision/redesign of the tool.
The good news is that products improve. "Other products" have improved. C1 has improved immeasurably over its releases; it will continue to improve. So, it is not a terrible concession to admit some need for additional refinement.
I agree. Frankly, I'm still a bit surprised that the acquisition of Media Pro hasn't been integrated faster into the C1 environment. Maybe Phase One is trying to do something that will be better in the end, I don't know. But I also have no idea what the user feedback signals are doing to the prioritization of many improvement areas. I have several requests myself (more to do with sharpening, and layering, and darkframe subtraction), but it will only have a chance of being implemented if enough users ask for it (or the development team 'see the light'), but I've already said so in my earlier posts.
Cheers,
Bart
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I've tried the copy adjustments approach to applying keywords to multiple images. Sorry--doesn't work.
Have you experimented with the trial copy of version 9? Keywords are better, but still not completely there. And mildly buggy. But maybe it will do what you need now?