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Author Topic: State of mirrorless  (Read 12538 times)

Hans Kruse

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State of mirrorless
« on: November 06, 2015, 08:41:03 am »

http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/11/03/how-to-design-mirrorless-right/

It seems I'm not alone in the feeling that mirrorless is still not where it should be. It's odd as many of the things on the lists are already solved for DSLR's. Changes for changes sake sometimes and others the not invented here syndrome, I guess. My feeling is that in 3-5 years mirrorless is ready for adoption by me as most issues have been removed and reinvented.

BJL

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 09:19:57 am »

Yes, most items on that list appeal to me, and seem doable – for one thing, almost all of them are done in _some_ mirrorless cameras.  Maybe some of the current lacks are because a lot of mirrorless cameras so far have been aimed at users a bit far less skilled and demanding than Ming Thein, so that what is good for him (and us?) is not desirable for the target customers of most models. But there is clear evolution towards models and lenses that appeal to more demanding photographers, so I share your optimism.

One question though: are there "many things" that "are already solved for DSLRs" but which no mirrorless cameras does, and if so, what are they?  Perhaps you are referring to features of higher end "professional grade" SLRs that I have never experienced!


P. S. a Big "like" for bodies that vary in size and control design according to the intended usage and lens selection.  For example, a deep handgrip with substantial battery capacity, either built-in or as a convenient accessory.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:02:49 am by BJL »
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shadowblade

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 09:29:25 am »

They need to start making truly pro-grade mirrorless cameras, with emphasis on functionality and ultimate capability rather than on small size/weight (same with the lenses).

Many of the foibles with mirrorless cameras now are because they're small, not because they're mirrorless - but, because of their price and full-frame status, they're competing against full-size SLRs. Compare them with miniature/small SLRs and you'll find that they, too, have a similar list of issues. The problem isn't one of technology, but one of will and market segmentation. For too long, they've sold mirrorless cameras as some sort of upgrade to a point-and-shoot, with emphasis on portability and small size, rather than as professional tools capable of replacing an SLR.
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pegelli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 09:44:35 am »

I agree with his wish list but for me as an amateur shooter most things are nice to have (non-essential) or very personal (ergonomics/haptics/menu structure).
He's also asking for things that a lot of DSLR's also still lack.

For me it's still not either/or. EVF mirrorless shine in some areas while OVF DSLR's in other. There is still not one camera that can do it all (or both). That's why I own and use both  :)

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pieter, aka pegelli

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 10:42:57 am »

Some of the stuff I would like to see in the Sony A7's would involve making them a bit larger: top LCD, and AF joy stick on the back. I would have no problem with making them a bit larger, but I guess Sony wants to show that they can make a FF MILC the same size as a 4/3 MILC...

As for the rest of Ming's list, it is all very personal and specific to the way one shoots. Some of those things IMO relate to the fact that all MILC options are not yet true "systems"; I think Fuji is close, and perhaps Olympus.

rogan

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 11:19:33 am »

I love it when people who are bloggers get to make all the rules. Little bit like Digilloyd. Basically they are the Kardashian's of the camera world.
As someone who makes his living shooting I think the Sony is currently pretty great for certain things. And the D810 is pretty great for certain things. And the Phase IQ backs are pretty great.......
In the film days I owned and used at the same time, Sinar 8x10, Linhof 4x5, RZ, Contax and Nikon/Canon
Why do we expect one camera to be the do all end all today?

For one year in, the Sony is pretty damn good for not having a lot of people to rip off. Consider Canon and Nikon's big advances in the last 3 years? (Nikon has had zero. No camera advances, no new interesting lenses. The chip on the 810 is great but again, is Sony) Yes, there are things on the Sony I want to improve but same with most cameras. I'm not sure that Sony will do it though based on their past history of messing up every single product line that they have ever had. Fingers crossed.
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rdonson

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 11:41:46 am »

I love it when people who are bloggers get to make all the rules. Little bit like Digilloyd. Basically they are the Kardashian's of the camera world.
As someone who makes his living shooting I think the Sony is currently pretty great for certain things. And the D810 is pretty great for certain things. And the Phase IQ backs are pretty great.......
In the film days I owned and used at the same time, Sinar 8x10, Linhof 4x5, RZ, Contax and Nikon/Canon
Why do we expect one camera to be the do all end all today?

For one year in, the Sony is pretty damn good for not having a lot of people to rip off. Consider Canon and Nikon's big advances in the last 3 years? (Nikon has had zero. No camera advances, no new interesting lenses. The chip on the 810 is great but again, is Sony) Yes, there are things on the Sony I want to improve but same with most cameras. I'm not sure that Sony will do it though based on their past history of messing up every single product line that they have ever had. Fingers crossed.

I agree.  I've yet to meet the perfect camera for all situations I like in photography whether it's DSLR or mirrorless.  I doubt the perfect camera will ever exist that satisfies every opinionated photographer, blogger, pundt, etc.  Then there are some very creative photographers who have produced marvelous work with a smartphone. Opinions about perfection are ways to while away the hours when you're not out making photos.

I'm just going to keep plugging away with my DSLR when that makes sense and my Fuji X-T1 when that makes sense to me.  Blather on.
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Regards,
Ron

pegelli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 12:15:23 pm »

I love it when people who are bloggers get to make all the rules. Little bit like Digilloyd. Basically they are the Kardashian's of the camera world.
Great analogy, brought a smile to my face.

They can keep searching for the ideal camera, in the meantime I'll just keep making pictures with the old-fashioned disoptimal cameras I own  ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

BJL

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 03:00:57 pm »

I love it when people who are bloggers get to make all the rules.
Except that he not making the rules; he is making suggestions and comments based on his experience and needs.  At most, his comments are a very small voice amongst photographers, and I would hope that this group as a whole does make the rules (through market forces and such) that the camera makers follow, or ignore at their peril.  And the "rules of the market" work better if as many as possible of us get to express our opinions and wishes, don't you think?

(If Ming Thein got to propagate his opinions as widely and as loudly as Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes get to propagate theirs, that would be a worry . . .)
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BJL

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mirrorless wish lists: on magnified live view
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 05:14:23 pm »

One item on my wish list but not Ming Thein's: I would like some lower magnification options in live view (both the one-eyed and two-eyed versions) such as 2x or even 1.4x, like teleconverters.

Why? Mainly because in some situations, that would be enough to substantially improve manual focus or checking of details, without the problem of losing sight of the target when working with a long focal length. Also because sometimes I know I am going to crop (not having a long enough focal length available, or wanting loose framing with an erratically moving subject), and I would like a somewhat enlarged view while still seeing roughly all of my target composition.

The Olympus EM5 has part of this, but through the back-door: the 2x digital teleconverter mode magnifies the VF image 2x, crops the JPEG to that, but still outputs the full frame to the raw file.  But turning it on and off is a bit fiddly.
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armand

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Re: mirrorless wish lists: on magnified live view
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 09:15:00 pm »

One item on my wish list but not Ming Thein's: I would like some lower magnification options in live view (both the one-eyed and two-eyed versions) such as 2x or even 1.4x, like teleconverters.

Why? Mainly because in some situations, that would be enough to substantially improve manual focus or checking of details, without the problem of losing sight of the target when working with a long focal length. Also because sometimes I know I am going to crop (not having a long enough focal length available, or wanting loose framing with an erratically moving subject), and I would like a somewhat enlarged view while still seeing roughly all of my target composition.

The Olympus EM5 has part of this, but through the back-door: the 2x digital teleconverter mode magnifies the VF image 2x, crops the JPEG to that, but still outputs the full frame to the raw file.  But turning it on and off is a bit fiddly.

This can be done in the Fuji world if I understand correctly what you want, quite easily so: press the magnification and rotate the wheel which cycles between: no magnification, 100% and somewhere around 50%.

The other thing that he complains about the LCD off and only the viewfinder can be done on Fuji, less complicated than he claims. On the X-T1 press on the view mode and cycles through 4 options: LCD only, LCD on and EVF with eye sensor, EVF only, EVF only with eye sensor (turns on only when you look through it).

BernardLanguillier

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 10:19:03 pm »

It seems likely that, in the end, the better mirrorless cameras for serious multi-application shooting would be Canon/Nikon DSLRs whose mirror would have been replaced by an EVF.

Cheers,
Bernard

Telecaster

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 10:28:35 pm »

I enjoy reading Mr. Ming's take on things as he comes at it from a perspective quite different to mine. He's a guy who earns his living at this creative endeavor whereas I'm just having fun. So I can afford to be kinda blasé, if not exactly happy, about operational stuff that must be genuinely frustrating when you need to get the shot.

When I think about it there are plenty of things I'd like to see EVF cameras do better. So I'm glad there are folks like Ming doing their best to encourage less complacency from the camera makers.

-Dave-
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BJL

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Re: mirrorless wish lists: on magnified live view
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 10:38:36 pm »

This can be done in the Fuji world if I understand correctly what you want, quite easily so: press the magnification and rotate the wheel which cycles between: no magnification, 100% and somewhere around 50%.

The other thing that he complains about the LCD off and only the viewfinder can be done on Fuji, less complicated than he claims. On the X-T1 press on the view mode and cycles through 4 options: LCD only, LCD on and EVF with eye sensor, EVF only, EVF only with eye sensor (turns on only when you look through it).

Thanks; frustratingly, I cannot find a description of the degrees of magnification given by the "click on real wheel" method, and the only one illustrated is a big zoom to the selected AF region.

The Olympus EM5 easily allows toggling the rear screen on and off, so I mostly have it off, except when making menu settings.

A third point: Fujifilm claims a very short 1/200s lag for the EVF in the XT10, which sounds negligible, but I have never had a chance to handle that camera.

All in all, it seems that almost evertthing of interest to me on MT's list is already out there, or very close; unfortunately no one brand or camera has my ideal combination yet. Olympus and Fujifilm together would almost do it, and throw in Sony's easily-copied idea of charging batteries in the camera via USB power, which would allow a USB power pack to carry weeks of off-the-grid power for my needs. And add Leica's new EVF, which is clearly not designed or made by Leica (maybe by Panasonic), so I am sure it will be available to other brands for their high-end models soon.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:53:12 pm by BJL »
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Telecaster

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 10:50:45 pm »

It seems likely that, in the end, the better mirrorless cameras for serious multi-application shooting would be Canon/Nikon DSLRs whose mirror would have been replaced by an EVF.

This may indeed turn out to be the case, but I suspect CaNikon won't experience smooth sailing with their existing PD-AF lens lineups once they ditch the mirror. I also suspect this is a major reason why they have yet to dip their toes into the EVF water with even basic backwards-compatible 35mm format EVF cameras. Thus it may be wise for them to hold off as long as possible while improving on-sensor PD-AF tech as much as possible, thereby to minimize the negative aspects of mechanical slop from the lenses. In the end I think it'll take a new generation of hybrid PD/CD-AF lenses to carry the Big Two completely over the hump.

-Dave-
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Hans Kruse

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 01:32:50 am »

This may indeed turn out to be the case, but I suspect CaNikon won't experience smooth sailing with their existing PD-AF lens lineups once they ditch the mirror. I also suspect this is a major reason why they have yet to dip their toes into the EVF water with even basic backwards-compatible 35mm format EVF cameras. Thus it may be wise for them to hold off as long as possible while improving on-sensor PD-AF tech as much as possible, thereby to minimize the negative aspects of mechanical slop from the lenses. In the end I think it'll take a new generation of hybrid PD/CD-AF lenses to carry the Big Two completely over the hump.

-Dave-

I don't see why the lenses from Canon and Nikon would not work really well on a mirrorless body. Both have a complete f/2.8 and f/4 zoom lineup plus lots of very good primes. So they are in my opinion well positioned to just replace or add a FF mirrorless body. I'm sure they will when they have a good one to add.

David Anderson

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 02:26:01 am »

All I want is twin memory card slots..

Hello ??


 ;D
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stamper

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2015, 04:12:44 am »

All I want is twin memory card slots..

Hello ??


 ;D

In a small camera? I don't think it will happen?

pegelli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 04:19:57 am »

I don't see why the lenses from Canon and Nikon would not work really well on a mirrorless body. Both have a complete f/2.8 and f/4 zoom lineup plus lots of very good primes. So they are in my opinion well positioned to just replace or add a FF mirrorless body. I'm sure they will when they have a good one to add.
Fully agree Hans, the breadth of their lineups are mouth watering vs. some other brands and they can develop their bodies to match their own lenses. Question will be if they will go the Sony/Leica/MFT route of a very short registration distance and create an open system with adapters or if they would keep the DSLR registration distance  (so just remove the mirror) and remain a closed system. Time will tell but it will be interesting to see how they implement it (if at all)
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pieter, aka pegelli

alexcarnes

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 04:26:08 am »

It seems likely that, in the end, the better mirrorless cameras for serious multi-application shooting would be Canon/Nikon DSLRs whose mirror would have been replaced by an EVF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Indeed. The only wonder is that they haven't done it yet!

Personally, I can't wait. Just the advantage in terms of focusing - manual and automatic - should be considerable. I dread having to use the PDAF system in my D810, the accuracy and consistency is dreadful, especially with the Sigma Arts.
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