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Author Topic: State of mirrorless  (Read 12537 times)

David Anderson

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 04:31:20 am »

In a small camera? I don't think it will happen?

The rumour mill is suggesting the next Fuji Pro might have a pair of SD slots.
I always take that stuff with a grain of salt of course, but you never know.

Seems a helpful upgrade if Fuji are looking to take business of Nikon and Canon.
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alexcarnes

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2015, 04:35:19 am »

I enjoy reading Mr. Ming's take on things as he comes at it from a perspective quite different to mine. ... I'm glad there are folks like Ming doing their best to encourage less complacency from the camera makers.

-Dave-
Agreed. I like Ming - he's a virtuoso photographer and comes across as an intelligent and pleasant person. One of the few bloggers who're worth listening to! He's sometimes a tad overzealous but there it is.

Alex
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Manoli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 05:35:09 am »

It seems I'm not alone in the feeling that mirrorless is still not where it should be. It's odd as many of the things on the lists are already solved for DSLR's.

And some not ..
To paraphrase Ming : " So letís do something positive, once and for all. Here is a short list of essential things that every DSLR camera should have, and not necessarily to the exclusion of other functions."

1- PDAF/CDAF
2- Focus peaking and exposure zebras are a must.
3- Adaptable lenses (inc AF where applicable) with Sony/Minolta, Leica (M,R) and CaNikon glass.
4- Auto switch from AF to to magnify live view with peaking (MF) by simply rotating the lens' focus ring
5- Sensor-based IS like the M4/3 or A7II series cameras effective on all lenses (common sense required here)
6- Alternative to touch screens: add remote camera control via smartphone with NFC (including selecting focus points by touch).
7- Customizable menus and shortcuts (read: assignable buttons  and QM)
8- The option to charge or run over USB power like the A7II series.

And a shorter 'to-do' list for both MILC and DSLR's:

1- An ETTR metering option, based on RAW, that exposes until a certain percentage area of the frame clips (settable by the user).
2- Selectable mechanical and electronic shutter options - leaf shutters are great (and combined with an electronic shutter to hit higher speeds). Electronic first curtain should be standard.
3- Ability to write files to a USB attached SSD as well as the internal memory card either at capture or later.


Edit:
And all MILC lens manufacturers should make a Leica style coupling ring that allows you to mount two lenses back to back ...


« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 06:06:32 am by Manoli »
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alexcarnes

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 06:02:50 am »

And some not ..
To paraphrase Ming : " So letís do something positive, once and for all. Here is a short list of essential things that every DSLR camera should have, and not necessarily to the exclusion of other functions."

1- PDAF/CDAF
2- Focus peaking and exposure zebras are a must.
3- Adaptable lenses (inc AF where applicable) with Sony/Minolta, Leica (M,R) and CaNikon glass.
4- Auto switch from AF to to magnify live view with peaking (MF) by simply rotating the lens' focus ring
5- Sensor-based IS like the M4/3 or A7II series cameras effective on all lenses (common sense required here)
6- Alternative to touch screens: add remote camera control via smartphone with NFC (including selecting focus points by touch).
7- Customizable menus and shortcuts (read: assignable buttons  and QM)
8- The option to charge or run over USB power like the A7II series.

And a shorter 'to-do' list for both MILC and DSLR's:

1- An ETTR metering option, based on RAW, that exposes until a certain percentage area of the frame clips (settable by the user).
2- Selectable mechanical and electronic shutter options - leaf shutters are great (and combined with an electronic shutter to hit higher speeds). Electronic first curtain should be standard.
3- Ability to write files to a USB attached SSD as well as the internal memory card either at capture or later.
An lot of those things are never going to happen in a DSLR though...

One of the few fundamental concerns I have about mirrorless is the irritating sensor reflections you get when shooting into the sun or other bright light source; the DSLR's longer flange distance sorts that out nicely. Other than that though, a mirrorless D810 with RAW ETTR metering, well implemented focus peaking etc would make me happy I'm sure.
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Manoli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 06:07:51 am »

An lot of those things are never going to happen in a DSLR though...

Exactly - you've just summarised the 'raison d'Ítre' of the MILC ...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 06:19:08 am »

Hi,

Some of those things are dependent on sensors and cameras get those features when sensors provide them.

To these belongs on sensor PDAF and first electronic shutter curtain.

Best regards
Erik


And some not ..
To paraphrase Ming : " So letís do something positive, once and for all. Here is a short list of essential things that every DSLR camera should have, and not necessarily to the exclusion of other functions."

1- PDAF/CDAF
2- Focus peaking and exposure zebras are a must.
3- Adaptable lenses (inc AF where applicable) with Sony/Minolta, Leica (M,R) and CaNikon glass.
4- Auto switch from AF to to magnify live view with peaking (MF) by simply rotating the lens' focus ring
5- Sensor-based IS like the M4/3 or A7II series cameras effective on all lenses (common sense required here)
6- Alternative to touch screens: add remote camera control via smartphone with NFC (including selecting focus points by touch).
7- Customizable menus and shortcuts (read: assignable buttons  and QM)
8- The option to charge or run over USB power like the A7II series.

And a shorter 'to-do' list for both MILC and DSLR's:

1- An ETTR metering option, based on RAW, that exposes until a certain percentage area of the frame clips (settable by the user).
2- Selectable mechanical and electronic shutter options - leaf shutters are great (and combined with an electronic shutter to hit higher speeds). Electronic first curtain should be standard.
3- Ability to write files to a USB attached SSD as well as the internal memory card either at capture or later.


Edit:
And all MILC lens manufacturers should make a Leica style coupling ring that allows you to mount two lenses back to back ...


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Erik Kaffehr
 

Manoli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 06:33:08 am »

Some of those things are dependent on sensors and cameras get those features when sensors provide them.

Agreed - as the old saying goes: 'Don't put the cart before the horse '

To these belongs on sensor PDAF and first electronic shutter curtain.

Which is why they were already included in the list!

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 07:09:05 am »

Hi,

My take on this is that the problem is that the lens needs to stop down before exposure, so this is mainly a lens problem. With manual aperture it should be no problem.

I have not tested this, I shoot with a lot of different lenses on cameras having EFCS (E1C) but have never seen a problem but I also don't shoot fast times.

The peaking function is overvalued, in my humble option. It is based on the viewfinder image and does not indicate accurate focus.

I also feel that both peaking and zebras need to be able to be toggled, just pressing a button and without fiddling in menus.

The need of dual slot cards is interesting. I fully sympathise with those demanding it. On the other hand MF digital backs never used to have dual CF slots and those cameras have been used with complains by a lot of wedding photographers, just to mention a group who usually say they need it. A lot of stuff can go bad on a digital camera, the memory card is just one of those.  Good if Leica provides dual slots. And yes, I think it is a feature professional cameras should have.

I also agree that performance is what counts and the means to achieve it. The important thing is not PDAF or CDAF but that the things works.

Best regards
Erik






Electronic first curtain (E1C) needs to be improved before I consider it a must-have.  On the a7II with adapted lenses it fails at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec. and disabling it on this camera requires menu-diving.  My biggest disappointment with this camera.


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Erik Kaffehr
 

jjj

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2015, 09:33:13 am »

From article - "All of these problem beg the question: just how difficult is it to get it right? Evidently very much so, because not one of the cameras above is free from at least one massive glaring flaw"
Find any camera in any form factor which that could not be said about.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 09:55:36 am by jjj »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2015, 09:42:22 am »

Hi,

One of the issues is that different users may have different priorities. If I designed the A7rII, it would certainly be different. But would it work Mr Thein? I doubt it, would it work at all? Quite possibly not. It is easy to make a personal Wishlist, to implement it in real life can be very hard.

Best regards
Erik

From article - "All of these problem beg the question: just how difficult is it to get it right? Evidently very much so, because not one of the cameras above is free from at least one massive glaring flaw "Find any camera in any form factor which that could not be said about.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

jjj

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2015, 09:48:10 am »

All I want is twin memory card slots..
In a small camera? I don't think it will happen?
Certainly doable. Have you not seen how really tiny Micro SD cards are?
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jjj

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2015, 09:50:23 am »

One of the issues is that different users may have different priorities. If I designed the A7rII, it would certainly be different. But would it work Mr Thein? I doubt it, would it work at all? Quite possibly not. It is easy to make a personal Wishlist, to implement it in real life can be very hard.
I could state that I have several perfect cameras. For very specific jobs. They are however rubbish at other tasks. ;)
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Manoli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2015, 12:00:46 pm »

Electronic first curtain (E1C) needs to be improved before I consider it a must-have.  On the a7II with adapted lenses it fails at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec. and disabling it on this camera requires menu-diving.  My biggest disappointment with this camera.

Thanks for the heads-up.


I find that the a7II's focus peaking is not sufficiently precise.

Widlight,

I've seen some of your shots and am well aware of your expertise re manual focus but believe the value of FP lies in the application of it and is very subject-dependent. BIF, wouldn't be an ideal target. I don't use it as a first line of defence but rather as an adjunct to live view, when it works, and very much so when I'm zone focussing with moderate wide-angles (28 & 35).

No, it's not a feature one can rely on 100% of the time, but if the shot lends itself to it - it is, to me, irreplaceable and I haven't noticed any inaccuracy in the Sony implementation of it, far from it and for zone focusing, if there's an edge somewhere, I use that rather than LV.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:12:50 pm by Manoli »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2015, 01:59:13 pm »

Indeed. The only wonder is that they haven't done it yet!

Personally, I can't wait. Just the advantage in terms of focusing - manual and automatic - should be considerable. I dread having to use the PDAF system in my D810, the accuracy and consistency is dreadful, especially with the Sigma Arts.

I use only Nikon lenses on my D810 (and Canon lenses on my 5Ds R) and have not seen a lack of accuracy and inconsistency. On the contrary I find the AF very fast and precise. So I'm not missing anything in that area. I like the uncluttered view finders of both cameras. I would be nice if both had a real ETTR shooting mode. The highlight weighted metering on the D810 is better than what Canon has, but still not very good and rather inconsistent. For landscape shooting this is really the only thing I'm missing.

So why haven't they made a mirrorless camera yet that fits the existing lenses? My guess is that they have both found that the DSLR is the best in most aspects and that a so and so mirrorless would send a very mixed message to the users of both systems. I'm sure they both have full frame prototypes for testing for some time now. I don't quite see why Canon or Nikon should change the mount and start all over with new lenses. It would be like shooting themselves in the legs ;)

shadowblade

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2015, 03:09:32 pm »

It seems likely that, in the end, the better mirrorless cameras for serious multi-application shooting would be Canon/Nikon DSLRs whose mirror would have been replaced by an EVF.

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree that serious multipurpose cameras will be SLR-sized (maybe not SLR weight - optical viewfinders and mirror boxes are heavy), but why necessarily Nikon or Canon? Sony has a head start with that technology and a long history in video/cinema equipment (which has a lot of similarities with mirrorless technology-wise) and, while it has a major weakness in terms of lens selection, the combination of mirrorless, on-sensor PDAF and moveable sensors (used in IBIS) potentially allow for ultra-fast focus with any lens. Meanwhile, Canon and Nikon have the most feeble mirrorless lineups out of any manufacturer, and their pedigree in optics rather than electronics doesn't lend them any favours in catching up either (although they could make a killing selling lenses with multiple lens mount choices).

I hope Sony launch their rumoured pro-level mirrorless body soon - even if its AF only matches the 5D3 or 6D, rather than the D4s or 1Dx, it would still be a huge first step forward, and would perhaps entice Sigma, Zeiss and others to start releasing more of their top lenses (Art and Otus series) in E-mount in addition to EF and F-mount (perhaps at the expense of A-mount, which is essentially dead, and Sigma mount, which I don't know why they ever bothered with).
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Telecaster

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2015, 03:58:07 pm »

I don't see why the lenses from Canon and Nikon would not work really well on a mirrorless body. Both have a complete f/2.8 and f/4 zoom lineup plus lots of very good primes. So they are in my opinion well positioned to just replace or add a FF mirrorless body. I'm sure they will when they have a good one to add.

The issue isn't optics but the mechanics of lenses designed for PD-AF. CD-AF easily bests PD-AF when it comes to accuracy, and this will become obvious to users once they start working with a camera that offers both systems. If continuous focusing speed is your thing you may not care about this. But if not you likely will. PD-AF lenses operating in CD-AF mode tend to be sluggish if not glitchy. Thus I'd expect Canon & Nikon to update their lens lines accordingly. (Of course maybe they're already doing so "under the hood.")

-Dave-
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David Anderson

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2015, 05:36:06 pm »

Do cameras like the Sony A7rII's, a6000's and Fuji X stuff need micro AF adjust ?







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shadowblade

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2015, 05:42:45 pm »

The issue isn't optics but the mechanics of lenses designed for PD-AF. CD-AF easily bests PD-AF when it comes to accuracy, and this will become obvious to users once they start working with a camera that offers both systems. If continuous focusing speed is your thing you may not care about this. But if not you likely will. PD-AF lenses operating in CD-AF mode tend to be sluggish if not glitchy. Thus I'd expect Canon & Nikon to update their lens lines accordingly. (Of course maybe they're already doing so "under the hood.")

-Dave-

CDAF is more accurate, but PDAF is a lot faster. When you need AF, it's generally because you need to focus on something quickly, or focus on a moving subject. Otherwise MF (+/- focus confirmation) is better. On-sensor PDAF works very well with current lenses and can provide a means for mirrorless cameras to focus and track moving subjects, which, up until now, has been their biggest weakness.

Also, the STM motors recently introduced by Canon are optimal for CDAF without losing any functionality for PDAF.
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Manoli

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2015, 07:17:40 pm »

Do cameras like the Sony A7rII's, a6000's and Fuji X stuff need micro AF adjust ?

No.

The A7x has a an AF micro adjust menu setting but that's for A-mount lenses (only) using the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 adapters. Native FE mount lenses don't need it.  I'm not sure about Canon/Metabones combos, I haven't used any, but the manual says NO with unsupported lenses.
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: State of mirrorless
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2015, 09:22:17 pm »

No.

The A7x has a an AF micro adjust menu setting but that's for A-mount lenses (only) using the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 adapters. Native FE mount lenses don't need it.  I'm not sure about Canon/Metabones combos, I haven't used any, but the manual says NO with unsupported lenses.

No, one does not need AF microadjust even when using the Metabones because AF is still done on the image plane.  The only time you need to microadjust is when using A-mount lenses in combination with the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 sony adapters which have their own internal PDAF system that is outside of the camera.
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