Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release  (Read 40085 times)

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2015, 03:30:43 pm »

I think they do, but simply reversing the changes or providing alternative dialog boxes is only the knee jerk reaction. Do people remember which features have been removed in the past? Each removed feature needs considering for its own merits, and the right fix may be to leave the dialog box as now, and add corresponding features in a better place, Library (Move and the handling of duplicates, for instance).
Not a bad thought in theory but in practice they have ruffled so many feathers and made so many unhappy campers that a knee jerk might be the best they can do to regain some trust. Secondly there are some items in the import dialog that belong nowhere else, with the most obvious (but not only) one "eject card after import". Also a lot of people don't like Adobe telling them "there is a different/better way to do that", maybe by first providing better instructions and warning about changes to come in the future they can create buy-in but they can't do it at the drop of a hat without any upfront communication.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2015, 03:51:20 pm »

Also a lot of people don't like Adobe telling them "there is a different/better way to do that"

Then they should remember that Lightroom has been that way since day 1....
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2015, 04:02:56 pm »

I'm not a power user or clever exploiter of Lightroom's DAM assets...it's basically Develop and Print for me. 
Ignoring the DAM aspect is not bothering with possibly LR's greatest strength, i.e. being easily able to find your photos and directly integrate that into the other modules.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2015, 04:08:21 pm »

Then they should remember that Lightroom has been that way since day 1....
But it was designed and aimed a lot better than it currently is, that is the difference.
LR in it's early days took a lot of feedback from experienced users which directly affected how it ended up.
No to mention Adobe was quite a different company then, one far more respected than it is now. It seemed to have moved from a company aiming to make the best tools, to one pleasing the shareholders regardless of the customer.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2015, 04:21:02 pm »

Then they should remember that Lightroom has been that way since day 1....
Maybe yes, but then it really was better and it were mainly additions to the tool-set. Looking at the outcry this time they made a few mistakes where communication is probably the least. Not listening to your experienced beta testers and removing useful options without any warning probably rank higher.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2015, 04:35:18 pm »

But it was designed and aimed a lot better than it currently is, that is the difference.
LR in it's early days took a lot of feedback from experienced users which directly affected how it ended up.
No to mention Adobe was quite a different company then, one far more respected than it is now. It seemed to have moved from a company aiming to make the best tools, to one pleasing the shareholders regardless of the customer.

No, the difference is that these are the kind of changes they might previously have road-tested in a public beta for a new full version, rather than put straight into a dot release. Plus users are far more likely go hysterical when something is taken away - even if they can't recall features that vanished before.

But yes, people are just using this to vent about other Adobe-related fears or their dislike of the subscription model etc.
Logged

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2015, 04:47:16 pm »

Then they should remember that Lightroom has been that way since day 1....

That's only partially true. Indeed Lightroom was initially conceived and developed to do things differently ... However, Lightroom didn't become what it is today through pure blind loyalty to the Adobe Inc. logo or the Lr manager pontificating to his minions from on high ... It was the result of a teamwork effort where there was at least a modicum of respect by the developer for the end user.

In the beginning of that effort the success of Lr was based upon a somewhat mutual effort between developer and end user. More importantly, the end user had the ability, and trust in the developer, where they could witness what was being offered BEFORE it was finalized in an official release.

In those early days and subsequent versions, a large segment of the user base not only had the opportunity to test, appraise and further evaluate Lr then offer valuable feedback ... While at the same time Adobe had direct contact with a significant segment of their customers that allowed them to 'sell' their concept BEFORE the product ever hit the shelves. There were few surprises that were detrimental to established workflows, little, if any, arbitrary behavior by Adobe in this respect.

According to at least one source, it appears that v6.2 was shoved out the doors despite the advice of at least some beta testers. Which, even by Hogarty's own admission, goes against the grain of the original concept and philosophy of the original Lightroom paradigm.

So, no. The events of the past week or so really doesn't fall into, "They've always done it this way," classification.
Logged

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2015, 04:57:53 pm »


But yes, people are just using this to vent about other Adobe-related fears or their dislike of the subscription model etc.

Wow ... So those folks have it all wrong? There is no reason to be disappointed with v6.2? This recent fiasco is not indicative of, or at least a partial realization of those 'Adobe-related fears' and doubts about the subscription model?
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2015, 05:01:12 pm »

Wow ... So those folks have it all wrong?

To some extent, yes. Try talking sense to them and that's what one must conclude....
Logged

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2015, 05:13:37 pm »

To some extent, yes. Try talking sense to them and that's what one must conclude....

Perhaps if Adobe wouldn't treat there customers like lemmings ... Their customers would have a more sensible attitude.

Adobe will collect as much money this month for their failed effort as when they do something well ... The corporation is not the aggrieved party in this discussion ... It's the folks you can't talk sense with who have been short changed. Yet you choose to conclude otherwise.
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2015, 05:25:31 pm »

Perhaps if Adobe wouldn't treat there customers like lemmings ... Their customers would have a more sensible attitude.

Adobe will collect as much money this month for their failed effort as when they do something well ... The corporation is not the aggrieved party in this discussion ... It's the folks you can't talk sense with who have been short changed. Yet you choose to conclude otherwise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....
Logged

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2015, 05:27:51 pm »

Yeah, yeah, yeah....

I guess it is quite apparent that Hogarty is not the only one suffering from tone deafness or out of touch with the broader user base.
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2015, 06:58:23 pm »

I guess it is quite apparent that Hogarty is not the only one suffering from tone deafness or out of touch with the broader user base.

No, just tired of listening to a cracked record, repeating the same old banalities.
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2015, 07:09:49 pm »

No, the difference is that these are the kind of changes they might previously have road-tested in a public beta for a new full version, rather than put straight into a dot release. Plus users are far more likely go hysterical when something is taken away - even if they can't recall features that vanished before.

But yes, people are just using this to vent about other Adobe-related fears or their dislike of the subscription model etc.

Dear me John, you really do seem to be having like you are on Adobe's marketing payroll with regard to this.
People are justifiably really pissed off as their long established workflow is broken. If other things were removed and did not cause an outcry, then that suggests it was dealt with properly or as it was in the early days were done whilst LR was still being developed. The only thing I can recall being removed was how image filtering worked, but the replacement was better and LR was still quite new at the time. If they'd done it 10 years later then there would have been a big hoo-ha I'm pretty sure.

Saying the outcry is because of the subscription situation is simple facile. Both those who subscribe and those who do not are deeply annoyed.
There is good reason for the record number of complaints after only a few days on the Adobe forums and numerous people posting for the first time too.
Even the Lightroom Queen said not to upgrade, which was a first for Victoria Bampton, not to mention Jeff's comments above which should really get Adobe worried. If someone like Jeff is reconsidering LR....
Behaving in such a cavalier way on top of the fairly unpopular subscription model is however making people think even about how Adobe has changed as a company.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 07:12:46 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2015, 07:11:05 pm »

No, just tired of listening to a cracked record, repeating the same old banalities.

Yeah ... I can sympathize with your Adobe's discomfort when predictions come to pass ... very understandable under the circumstances.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 07:13:55 pm by ButchM »
Logged

Paul Wright

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2015, 08:57:03 pm »

Adobe might lean something from Camerabits 'Photo Photomechanic', ingest and captioning software which has no peers in professional sports and media circles.
I certainly feel the pain of the bazillion photographers across the planet who use all the functionality of Lr Import and I totally condemn the dumbing down. But I'm with you. I also use PhotoMechanic to ingest, sort, rank, caption, add metadata, keywords etc prior to Import in Lr. PhotoMechanic is a powerful & sophisticated app which Adobe could do well to study. But the PC-only Import app I really like is BreezeBrowser Download Pro. This has even greater capability than the Ingest function of PhotoMechanic.

So my workflow is ingest with BreezeBrowser Download Pro using its powerful options, then sort, rank, caption, add metadata, keywords etc in PhotoMechanic, then convert selects to DNG and then Import into Lr. It would be nice if one program did it all but this is rarely the case. Busy professionals need to take the line of least resistance to get jobs processed and delivered. In my case that means my files are passed through BB Download Pro, PhotoMechanic & DNG Converter before Lr Import. It's very fast and efficient.

Any formative plans I had to retire BB Download Pro & PhotoMechanic in favor of a 100% Lr workflow has now completely evaporated.

-pw
Logged

adias

  • Guest
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2015, 11:00:22 pm »

...
Adobe will collect as much money this month for their failed effort as when they do something well ...

There is a tempest in a teapot with this Import module thing and most of the discussion is infantile but... the statement above is right. That is what's wrong with a subscription system. The subscriber is tied and invested into a service and it's at the mercy of the publisher more so than perpetual licenses.

Logged

TomFrerichs

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2015, 12:34:49 am »

Something that should be very clear from this long chain are the differences in workflow used by various photographers. Something else that should be plain to see is that often those differences are driven not only by personal preference or experience, but by the type of photography.

For example, somebody said that using the import dialog to cull work was ridiculous because that should be done in Library after the import. (Might have been in a different chain, but the same topic.) For a relatively low volume shooter, that makes good sense. The landscape photographer who carefully chooses his tripod position and then uses Live View to focus isn't going to have nearly the same volume of photographs as the sports photographer who often shoots in bursts. The first photographer doesn't need to do a quick and dirty selection; the second photographer will have one or two thousand shots of which many do not need to be imported. Culling at import makes good sense and saves considerable time.  This isn't a technical evaluation--is it in focus?--but rather a subject evaluation. It allows the sports photographer to quickly remove those shots where the referee is standing in just the wrong spot: right in front of action. Because referees (or rodeo clowns in my case) ALWAYS get in the way. Those lovely, oversized check marks in the middle of the darkened preview image, a feature of the new import dialog, seem to be taking lessons from those referees.  They, too, seem to always be in the way. 

Will that import dialog change get in the way of someone who imports everything?  Nope, it probably wouldn't. What is a major frustration to one photographer wouldn't affect another's workflow. 

Another suggested that the "move" option really isn't necessary.  As one of my non-photographic pursuits I put out a church newsletter, and I often get photographs from others. These JPEGs are all over the map as far as quality, and very often I find that I need to do some minor tone mapping, particularly white balance, and cropping.  Although there are a number of tools available to do this work, I've found it easiest to import them into a LR catalog, do my cleanup there, and then export the adjusted and resized images. Without the move option I would have to import and then remember to clean up the submitted images from where I stashed them.  The move option makes my job much easier; I don't have to remember to clean up directories later.

Those are just two options that have been altered or eliminated in the new, improved import dialog. I find having to change my workflow to accommodate those changes extremely frustrating, particularly as I see no good reason for changing the import process in the first place.

Others have different reasons, some probably more valid than mine, to complain about the changes.  For those photographers, this is not a "tempest in a teapot." The changes have very real impacts on the way that they work.  Even if you don't use a specific feature doesn't mean that it's removal or modification doesn't have consequences for other photographers.  Have the courtesy to understand that your views and needs may not match others. After all, __I__ don't use the Map module, the Slideshow module, the Web module, or the Book module.  I wouldn't advocate dumping those just because I think they're a waste of space.

One last point.  This controversy has nothing to do with the "subscription service."  I have a perpetual license, and I'm impacted as much as any CC user. 

Tom

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 12:37:33 am by TomFrerichs »
Logged

ButchM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 749
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2015, 01:51:16 am »

There is a tempest in a teapot with this Import module thing and most of the discussion is infantile but... the statement above is right. That is what's wrong with a subscription system. The subscriber is tied and invested into a service and it's at the mercy of the publisher more so than perpetual licenses.

Tempest in a teapot? Really? I think that may be a significant understatement.

The furor over this issue supplanted the most popular post on the feedback forum that took over five years to reach that stature ... In only 6 days! Hundreds of users took the time to post their thoughts there about this issue. for many, it was there very first time to comment there on any topic.

The user reaction to v6.2/2015.2 was not the result of a small group of adjutators in tinfoil hats warning of the coming apocalypse .... It was in direct response to the quality and content of the product issued by Adobe. The response was of a magnitude unprecedented in the industry. It was not the result of a few trouble makers trying to create a straw man argument to belittle Adobe needlessly.

If anyone is troubled by the 'infantile' level of response to the situation, there is no one to blame other than Tom Hogarty and his co-workers that made the final decision to create and release that product. Perhaps if folks don't want to witness infantile feedback ... Maybe the decision makers at Adobe shouldn't treat their customers like children.

Some may question the severity of the situation over the past week ... But ... Had Adobe offered a more thoughtful, well-planned and properly vetted update ... The reaction from their customers would have been near stone cold silence by comparison.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 02:07:07 am by ButchM »
Logged

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2015, 01:52:05 am »

No, just tired of listening to a cracked record, repeating the same old banalities.
I think we're talking about an issue that's about 6 days old here. And yes, I know you keep repeating that every function removed needs to be evaluated on its own merits (that's not a broken record yet  ;)) but if Adobe isn't listening to it's own beta-testers the issue is that a lot of people don't have faith in the evaluation of what gets removed.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up