for maybe 2 or 3 people...info of interest

[fredjeang2]

I know that this is not interesting anybody,
However just to let you know that
The Lightworks 12.5 aint beta anymore but
Official.

(check the videos tutos on the console!)

www.lwks.com

Works like a breeze with Blackmagic softwares: Fusion and Resolve
No hassle.

If you invest in the (expensive) console, you get the
Fastest NLE currently on planet hearth and if you manage
Big editorial volume, the console investment can be rewarded
In 5 or 6 months, without talking about the extra sleeping hours
You gain in life-quality.

Coot, do you hear me? (i know you bloody don't...lol...)

[D Fuller]

I DO have to check this out sometime...

[fredjeang2]

It's a niche NLE.  Generally the people who
Have been using it are hard core Hollywood editor's profile.
A guy in the Red forum used the expression "die hard".

With Red native it could not be more simple. A debayer.
The displays are HD and rec 709 at 10bit max. But the background keeps
Native Resolution. No need extra steps.
If you zoom in to reframe then export let's say an IS,
You'll have the full res of your export choice, 2,4k etc.
So the only thing to remember
Is to bring back the debayer to fullres or premium on export.
(in the case you don't round trip)

Also, it does not have any set-source-settings like PP or Avid,
But it reads the associated RMD. So if you work in cooperation
With RCX, then cinex becomes your source setting access.
If you have saved the RMDs. 

It features viewing LUTs at project level or CC Luts at timeline
Level, (different flavours of 3d luts) bla bla...
But the more sensible approach is to just cut on it and
Round trip Resolve, I guess it would be 90% people's workflow.

Appart from nle jargon here or there, the point I'd
Like to share is this one: what makes this NLE very unique?
And why serious editors who have been cutting with it from
The beginning of digital are those "die hard" users?

It is difficult to recommend Lightworks as it is really
Special. It's not like PP that ingests all included native
Arriraw. In lw you'd have to work Prores to cut Arriraw.
Then you would conform Resolve or Scratch etc.
And the console is too expensive. Ok, handmade for
A life time use but still...

The pro editshare support to have the guys
On the phone etc...is quite expensive and
Reserved to big houses. So the only option is
The forum.

now,

After a few mounth in practice,  it makes no doubt  to
Me that this software is damn bloody fast. Extremely
Easy to get used to, natural. But more importantly, it
Is thought FOR editorial. It's implementation helps
The story-teller. No surprise then why Thelma and
More hard core Hollywood are still using it to cut their
High-end movies. (the list is quite impressive).
It is THE feature film editor's NLE.
More exactly Avid is the widest used but LW is the loved one.


What is particularly clever, is the spaciality, how you organise
And cut in a 3D space. Like if your clips where peices
Of papers on a huge table. Just like on a magazine editorial room.
Old school but dead efficient.

In LW, everything is a clip. There is no notion of nested
Sequence. You have clips and rooms. Bin organisation
Is just what it should be.

There is no menu and almost no buttons. You simply don't need them.

So, organizing,  cutting, versionning, etc...when you get
Skilled on it, just happens at the speed of light.
The editor is transparent, you make it work the way you
Like and not the other way.
It really is for editors but I think it
Shines in long form editorial.
For short form, Resolve 12 might be the sensible choice.
 It also has features for analogic film as its pedigree comes
From that.

Of course 3d, integrated with Fusion...

And...oh yeah, the shark works, not just decorative.

Few people are aware of its potencial and how good it is.
But the ones who cut on it never look back.

I've been trying to influence the Cooter. Although
I know he is not influenceable.
But I know Coot's way of working since we've been
Chatting here for long. And I know that this
Lightworks suits him like a tailor jacket,
Because he likes pressure and speed and efficiency without
Hassles...(should I say...intuitive?...lol)
But Coot is a great image maker but a complete
Disaster when it comes to NLE...lol...(teasing here)
And I fear the time when he will have signed the check
With Avid...

Seriously: worth a look!

[fredjeang2]

[fredjeang2]

Today I did a different Red workflow in LW.
Instead of cutting native at 1/8
I bach exported all the ar3D footage in full res
In Prores4444

Despite the 4k, no slowdown whatsoever in Lightworks.
Great great stability with the highest Prores setting.
I was expecting a clear reduction in performances but no.

So I got the Arri point: Prores444 from capture ensures
A very simple workflow but rock solid in all the pipeline
Without having to transcode.

[Christopher Sanderson]

Impressive. Give us some idea of the hardware setup: drives, bus, videocard etc.

[fredjeang2]

Impressive. Give us some idea of the hardware setup: drives, bus, videocard etc.

My pleasure.

On this machine in question I run it on
Windows 8 (love it)
32gb Ram...uppsss, edit: 64gb
nVidia GTX 750 I think.
Open GL something
No red rocket so I'm stucked to Premium
I think the Drives are from Samsung but not sure.
Tower is Resolve compliant.(recommended)

My peecees have been built and configurated by a company
Specialized in post production that did everything according
To my limited budget and I trusted them. No regret.
Now, I'm useless in terms of computers. This is an area
I really do not understand and that I avoid touching. So
I delegate to the ones who know : "here is my budget, it has to perform
 the best..." Lol

What I suspect is that Prores 444 acts more like an image sequence so it needs more RAM while UHD are more CPU consuming (just like AVCHD family).
Also Lightworks has to do with it. Keep in mind that it has no menu and zero sophistication. It's very much like Nuke implementation. Ultra light. Those softwares are implemented cleverly to bring the max performances.

Arriraw converter for example slows down (and sometimes considerably !) when you start to color while Scratch does not with the same footage. And Scratch seems to be less demanding than Resolve being more sophisticated.
Explain that? Maybe just an impression but I beleive software engineering.

In practise, I see no differences between Prores 444 and 422 in terms of stability. And even if I switch to 10bits display. BUT, if I ingest UHD 4K of one of those exotic hybrid cameras it would slowdown at one point for sure, reminding me the AVCHD saga.

RED native, max debayer at 1/8, idealy at 1/16 otherwise it slows down but never freezes. And having LW and RCX at the same time working together. Now for big volume it's proxy.

Fusion is stable. No freeze nor slowdown whatsoever.
But again, IS are not problematic if enough RAM. Only the render
Can take time but the work itself up to render is iron stable.

Also, there are viewers that are more useable than others.
QT is a pure mess and can freeze with high res footage.
Scratch play does not. I avoid to use QT as much as I can.
In fact I never use it. Too tedious.
Mpc-hc 64bit is a great viewer that does play Prores 444 smoothly
Others are just useless. We could write a book.

Bottom line: many factors are contribuiting to the confort-stability. Numbers are just not always representative of the real life? No idea. Computer engineering, cablery, are like chinese to me.
All I notice if it works as it should or not that much.

But I think that today's peecees are a better investment.

[jjj]

Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12  as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool?

[fredjeang2]

Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12  as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool?

I confess I didn't. I use Resolve 11. Sorry not being helpfull here.

[fredjeang2]

I DO have to check this out sometime...

I falled on this article in the Cow. A bit outdated but it sort of explains quite a lot of things I wanted to transmit on this NLE.
Not from an unreliable low-end land like Fred but from serious Hollywood profesional.
https://library.creativecow.net/battistella_david/lightworks/2

At least nobody will doubt. Yes there is something different and really good
That most people ignore because the mantras are PP and Avid.. 

Ps: since this text was written, lots of things have been moving on.

[bcooter]

Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12  as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool?

It takes a lot of computer to run resolve, even the latest and greatest.

I work on a smaller timeline which helps, but resolve is not the smoothest program but has a beautiful color engine.

The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.

I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang2]

It takes a lot of computer to run resolve, even the latest and greatest.

I work on a smaller timeline which helps, but resolve is not the smoothest program but has a beautiful color engine.

The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.

I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.

IMO

BC

Yeah. Resolve is demanding. People have written books
On that in the motion forums. They sort of built arround what
Was originaly a color software an all-in-one capable featured but to me it still
Smells DIY in the sense that it looks like a house where
Extensions have been added without a global planification from scratch
(no pun intended).

This is a tendency that is going to proliferate. Nuke has
Editing capabilities that were unthinkable a few years ago.

It just reflects the current reality where editors colors and
Colorists edit.

I have been a strong defensor during many time of a all-in-one app,
But I've changed my mind.
In the moment that the roundtripping stays clean, it's way
Faster and much much much more flexible to cut in a
Specialized NLE and then to send to another specialized color-conform application.

I hated roundtripping because I considered it was an old school
Useless way of doing. But I realised that softwares that are
Ultra specialized in one task are in the end a time saver.
Because you use them just for what they do, but they are so well
Implemented that in the end, the fragmentation can be
Much more efficient than an integration, always a compromise and demanding
In terms of power.
If I could afford it today, my color app would be Baselight.
Scratch is very sophisticated, has a reasonable renting
Formula accessible for everyone but might be tedius
In learning curve compared to Resolve.
The Resolve 12 proposal is really nailed, clever, and in tine with our times.
They will sell gazillion licenses. This world will be Blackmagic.
But it's not interesting for me because I don't want to cut
On it.

For an editor who does not have AEs luxury, it's a great option
To go for a swiss army knife because all roundtripp issues
Are happening for the same reasons: mess in file naming and
Folder structures. And then the need to use proxies, so in the
End those are tasks for assistants. But still, the little time
Spended on AAF etc...is not a big deal.

[jjj]

As an aside Fred, you posts look and read a bit like non rhyming poetry.

[jjj]

The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.

How do you mean exactly. Not heard of this before.

I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.

I'm still on Mountain lion due to the stupid behaviour of later OSXs and multiple monitors. Have wondered about going back to Windows at least it could do multiple monitors and window management intelligently when I used to use it a long time back.

[bcooter]

How do you mean exactly. Not heard of this before.
I'm still on Mountain lion due to the stupid behaviour of later OSXs and multiple monitors. Have wondered about going back to Windows at least it could do multiple monitors and window management intelligently when I used to use it a long time back.

Anything Past Mavericks or maybe yosmite (who can keep up?)  requires an apple approved secondary disc for startup (whatever the hell apple approved is).

In fact you have to have a computer that will run yosmite and before I buy I give my mac guys the serial number and they can tell if I can run older os.

Regardless, about resolve for editing as Fred says, resolve is just a series of apps patched together.  Great color engine, slow interface, but at least it produces pretty color.  For editing, it's not there at least in 11 haven't tried or had time to run through 12.

Doesn't matter because a good nle is a good nle.  I don't xml roundtrip that often on short form.  I just pull out all the clips from the edited final (usually a few more) arrange them in shot order and color them end to end.

May seem like overkill but gives me room to edit, change do what I want and like I see RED raw to Resolve is very pretty and if I only roundtrip the xml with small handles, I have to go back for changes, so why not just color anything useful.

If there from the same scene just take the memory function, apply it with some slight changes, or tracking and done.

At least it saves me time in the back end because no final lock is ever final lock anymore.

IMO

BC

[jjj]

Anything Past Mavericks or maybe yosmite (who can keep up?)  requires an apple approved secondary disc for startup (whatever the hell apple approved is).

More expensive!

[fredjeang2]

As an aside Fred, you posts look and read a bit like non rhyming poetry.

I urgently need english classes in serious. In grammar, orthography and
Speaking.
The other day I was filmed while driving and talking in english
About a topic and being concentrated on the sunday's drivers
On the highway
As well as on the conversation in question and not only a strong french accent
But plagued with grammatical mistakes and  lack of
Construction.
At least scotish people understand me.

Ps: windows now aren't the garbage they used to be. True that
They aren't as cool and well designed but the power is there and
Windows 8 is much much better than 7, way faster. I love it.
If you don't cut in FCP, go for Windows.

[bcooter]

At least scotish people understand me.

Ps: windows now aren't the garbage they used to be. True that
They aren't as cool and well designed but the power is there and
Windows 8 is much much better than 7, way faster. I love it.
If you don't cut in FCP, go for Windows.

Fred,

I love your English.  It beats the hell out of my French and your post are the most thought provoking on this entire site.

Yea, Apple is gone from the creative content production business.  The hipsters will still keep an Imac on their desk, but for serious work it's a pc box.

The last generation of silver desktops is selling for more than the mid spec black flower vase so that tells you something.

The deal with us is I cut in fcp 7, probably always will and have all our machines at their highest spec.

I think a lot of u tubers/vimeoers cut in fcp X, but I've never seen a serious production house use X (at least in El Lay) and this constant apple os upgrade per month is maddening.

I don't know the numbers, but I do know that every editorial house I know still runs Avid and FCP 7.   I can find a FCP 7 editor in ten minutes and if they moved fcp 7 to something else, they can easily jump back.

I've tried every NLE, Avid, FCP EX, Lightworks, and have a full CC account (which I rarely use) and nothing works in my style as well as 7. 

I don't understand the angst of everyone saying "fcp7 is dead oh my what do I do?"

Nobody has to jump every time some company comes out with something new.   Only creative guys get freaked by this.

Hell I still use Contax that have been dead forever and works incredibly well, A leica S2 that is long gone in the cmos world of a billion iso, that makes us money, use the RED ones almost weekly and who ever throws away grip when somebody comes out with a new arm or knuckle?

I could care less if apple screws around with OS systems and calls the next one Turtleneck.  We all know the goal in the electronic world is to move you to something new and we all know that any of these companies can make older software compatible, or change their whole business strategy in a heartbeat.  Who the hell likes Adobes CC rental system?   

S__t you can buy a new I phone and run it on snow leopard with ease because Apple NEEDS the I phone money, final cut pro, $8,000 mac towers Apple and me don't care and the silver macs can be brought up to run as fast as the flower vase, for a lot less than 8 grand.

Anyway, would I move to PeeCee?  Yea maybe, but I have 7 workstations in three cities, one huge portable two computer workstation, 4 apple business computers, 7 laptops, 6 apple phones, 4 ipads, a crap load of software, plug ins, etc.

The Powerbooks I use are the latest version 17" made which run thunderbolt, two 1 tb SSD drives and just rock along.  One drive is SL, the second is Yosemite and I keep producing work and have a great mac guy that can keep them running forever.

The new I macs are fast, but crappy screens, though you can run a i/o box to them with a broadcast monitor for grading and my three silver workstations are maxed out and run and run, no issues and are damn fast.

Actually since I transcode to proRes proxy, then later ProRes HQ for finish in 2k and uhd/4k, during the editorial process I have no rendering times, until I burn out a file for preview and that takes very little time in 2k, 4k longer.

I really don't understand why everyone loses their mind over not being able to cut in native files.  ProRes is the basic standard, doesn't bog down the nle so whether you transcode in the bg or the front end, your still transcoding.

Going to finish with the graded clips is a little  longer, but no client sets in the editing station waiting for final locked and conformed in their usual 10 deliverables.

I personally love FCP 7, except for a more modern browser and more utilization of ram and multi core,  I wouldn't change a thing.

Anyway, this is the first section of a presentation for an At-Edge/CA Magazine production.   

Shot on RED 1's, cut and conformed in fcp7, colored in Resolve 11.  This is just the base edit, the final will have visuals/vo with a story in the front and back.

SAY YOU DON'T LOVE ME LITTLE MOVIE

Reliable and no extra learning curve is a great timesaver.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang2]

Thanks for the kind words James.

Well, you're right on fcp7.

In fact, the proxy workflow is not such a burden
And the only way to keep stability in the editorial
Room, and also it allows to cut everywhere with
A laptop.

I do not understand either the mantras on cutting native.
When I read the dudes in the Red forum "i shoot dragon 6k"...blabla
But I'd like to see the same guy in his editorial suite
Handeling 200 6k R3D and cutting at ease in real time...
It's just not going to happen.

Scorcese movies are cutted in proxies, like I guess
All Hollywood movies.

So FCP7 is not outdated at the moment you are doing
Your own work. It would be different if you where
On set working for others or got imposed to work
In a Avid room.
Why changing something that works for you?
In the moment it does not affect your business, it's
Better staying like this indeed. You know the
Workflow and how to extract the best of it.
A lot of people are still cutting in fcp7.

Also I completly understand you on switching peecee.
A guy like me, one small editorial studio, 3 computers
It's really easy to make the switch. But when you got
3 studios all equiped, that's another story.
I guess it has to do with investment-reward equation.

Maybe, you could try to reequiped the smallest of your
Satelite studios and see what happens and if it's worth.

Unless your clients don't ask you for 8k under pressure,
Switching to windows is probably pointless.

I think in your case I would do the same: staying fcp7
And Mac, unless Mac really becomes a truth burden within
The business. But I don't think we are there yet.

Cheers.

Ps: i'm currently having a coffee outside and your link
Takes ages to load because I don't catch a decent internet
Conection. I'll open it at home.
Time to look also for new mobile phone.
I'm completly fed-up of being tracked by google and Co.
The solution is called: blackphone. (silent circle)
Those are the onces used by politicians and big business
Executives who need complete privacy. They now sell them
To the public for 800bucks. Check that.

[fredjeang2]

Fred,

I love your English.  It beats the hell out of my French and your post are the most thought provoking on this entire site.

Yea, Apple is gone from the creative content production business.  The hipsters will still keep an Imac on their desk, but for serious work it's a pc box.

The last generation of silver desktops is selling for more than the mid spec black flower vase so that tells you something.

The deal with us is I cut in fcp 7, probably always will and have all our machines at their highest spec.

I think a lot of u tubers/vimeoers cut in fcp X, but I've never seen a serious production house use X (at least in El Lay) and this constant apple os upgrade per month is maddening.

I don't know the numbers, but I do know that every editorial house I know still runs Avid and FCP 7.   I can find a FCP 7 editor in ten minutes and if they moved fcp 7 to something else, they can easily jump back.

I've tried every NLE, Avid, FCP EX, Lightworks, and have a full CC account (which I rarely use) and nothing works in my style as well as 7. 

I don't understand the angst of everyone saying "fcp7 is dead oh my what do I do?"

Nobody has to jump every time some company comes out with something new.   Only creative guys get freaked by this.

Hell I still use Contax that have been dead forever and works incredibly well, A leica S2 that is long gone in the cmos world of a billion iso, that makes us money, use the RED ones almost weekly and who ever throws away grip when somebody comes out with a new arm or knuckle?

I could care less if apple screws around with OS systems and calls the next one Turtleneck.  We all know the goal in the electronic world is to move you to something new and we all know that any of these companies can make older software compatible, or change their whole business strategy in a heartbeat.  Who the hell likes Adobes CC rental system?   

S__t you can buy a new I phone and run it on snow leopard with ease because Apple NEEDS the I phone money, final cut pro, $8,000 mac towers Apple and me don't care and the silver macs can be brought up to run as fast as the flower vase, for a lot less than 8 grand.

Anyway, would I move to PeeCee?  Yea maybe, but I have 7 workstations in three cities, one huge portable two computer workstation, 4 apple business computers, 7 laptops, 6 apple phones, 4 ipads, a crap load of software, plug ins, etc.

The Powerbooks I use are the latest version 17" made which run thunderbolt, two 1 tb SSD drives and just rock along.  One drive is SL, the second is Yosemite and I keep producing work and have a great mac guy that can keep them running forever.

The new I macs are fast, but crappy screens, though you can run a i/o box to them with a broadcast monitor for grading and my three silver workstations are maxed out and run and run, no issues and are damn fast.

Actually since I transcode to proRes proxy, then later ProRes HQ for finish in 2k and uhd/4k, during the editorial process I have no rendering times, until I burn out a file for preview and that takes very little time in 2k, 4k longer.

I really don't understand why everyone loses their mind over not being able to cut in native files.  ProRes is the basic standard, doesn't bog down the nle so whether you transcode in the bg or the front end, your still transcoding.

Going to finish with the graded clips is a little  longer, but no client sets in the editing station waiting for final locked and conformed in their usual 10 deliverables.

I personally love FCP 7, except for a more modern browser and more utilization of ram and multi core,  I wouldn't change a thing.

Anyway, this is the first section of a presentation for an At-Edge/CA Magazine production.   

Shot on RED 1's, cut and conformed in fcp7, colored in Resolve 11.  This is just the base edit, the final will have visuals/vo with a story in the front and back.

SAY YOU DON'T LOVE ME LITTLE MOVIE

Reliable and no extra learning curve is a great timesaver.

IMO

BC

I finaly could open the link.
Great talents (the woman is gorgeous), great music.
I guess it's a lingerie (don't know the word in english. Lingery? Stockings
And all that) advert (or that's what it transmits to me).
The grading is nailed.

I watched it on 2 monitors. One calibrated 10bit and one
Not calibrated. I always check on a consumer monitor that
Everyone has because the calibrated display is not what
People will see.
So, no gamma shift at all, consistency. I particularly like the
Fact that you kept DR and not crushed blacks.
Crushing blacks works for the car race imagery, transmiting
More agressivity, but for lingery, you were wised to keep
Subtle shades so it looks more refined.

Normaly, my 8bit uncalibrated display tends to be more
Saturated and crushes earlier, but in your video the shade
Information is kept intact, just like in the 10bit display.
Of course, the naughty inevitable internet compression
Appears here or there. Web compression is a complete nightmare.
The only thing I found that sort of works is to upload
A vimeo or youtube h264 in constant bitrate at 12000 minimum
And nkt listening to their recommendations of 8000
Because they recompress an already compressed file and
Artifacts are at the party.

Thanks for sharing.