Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: fredjeang2 on October 02, 2015, 10:13:37 am
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I know that this is not interesting anybody,
However just to let you know that
The Lightworks 12.5 aint beta anymore but
Official.
(check the videos tutos on the console!)
www.lwks.com
Works like a breeze with Blackmagic softwares: Fusion and Resolve
No hassle.
If you invest in the (expensive) console, you get the
Fastest NLE currently on planet hearth and if you manage
Big editorial volume, the console investment can be rewarded
In 5 or 6 months, without talking about the extra sleeping hours
You gain in life-quality.
Coot, do you hear me? (i know you bloody don't...lol...)
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I DO have to check this out sometime...
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It's a niche NLE. Generally the people who
Have been using it are hard core Hollywood editor's profile.
A guy in the Red forum used the expression "die hard".
With Red native it could not be more simple. A debayer.
The displays are HD and rec 709 at 10bit max. But the background keeps
Native Resolution. No need extra steps.
If you zoom in to reframe then export let's say an IS,
You'll have the full res of your export choice, 2,4k etc.
So the only thing to remember
Is to bring back the debayer to fullres or premium on export.
(in the case you don't round trip)
Also, it does not have any set-source-settings like PP or Avid,
But it reads the associated RMD. So if you work in cooperation
With RCX, then cinex becomes your source setting access.
If you have saved the RMDs.
It features viewing LUTs at project level or CC Luts at timeline
Level, (different flavours of 3d luts) bla bla...
But the more sensible approach is to just cut on it and
Round trip Resolve, I guess it would be 90% people's workflow.
Appart from nle jargon here or there, the point I'd
Like to share is this one: what makes this NLE very unique?
And why serious editors who have been cutting with it from
The beginning of digital are those "die hard" users?
It is difficult to recommend Lightworks as it is really
Special. It's not like PP that ingests all included native
Arriraw. In lw you'd have to work Prores to cut Arriraw.
Then you would conform Resolve or Scratch etc.
And the console is too expensive. Ok, handmade for
A life time use but still...
The pro editshare support to have the guys
On the phone etc...is quite expensive and
Reserved to big houses. So the only option is
The forum.
now,
After a few mounth in practice, it makes no doubt to
Me that this software is damn bloody fast. Extremely
Easy to get used to, natural. But more importantly, it
Is thought FOR editorial. It's implementation helps
The story-teller. No surprise then why Thelma and
More hard core Hollywood are still using it to cut their
High-end movies. (the list is quite impressive).
It is THE feature film editor's NLE.
More exactly Avid is the widest used but LW is the loved one.
What is particularly clever, is the spaciality, how you organise
And cut in a 3D space. Like if your clips where peices
Of papers on a huge table. Just like on a magazine editorial room.
Old school but dead efficient.
In LW, everything is a clip. There is no notion of nested
Sequence. You have clips and rooms. Bin organisation
Is just what it should be.
There is no menu and almost no buttons. You simply don't need them.
So, organizing, cutting, versionning, etc...when you get
Skilled on it, just happens at the speed of light.
The editor is transparent, you make it work the way you
Like and not the other way.
It really is for editors but I think it
Shines in long form editorial.
For short form, Resolve 12 might be the sensible choice.
It also has features for analogic film as its pedigree comes
From that.
Of course 3d, integrated with Fusion...
And...oh yeah, the shark works, not just decorative.
Few people are aware of its potencial and how good it is.
But the ones who cut on it never look back.
I've been trying to influence the Cooter. Although
I know he is not influenceable.
But I know Coot's way of working since we've been
Chatting here for long. And I know that this
Lightworks suits him like a tailor jacket,
Because he likes pressure and speed and efficiency without
Hassles...(should I say...intuitive?...lol)
But Coot is a great image maker but a complete
Disaster when it comes to NLE...lol...(teasing here)
And I fear the time when he will have signed the check
With Avid...
Seriously: worth a look!
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(http://screenshots.en.sftcdn.net/en/scrn/318000/318077/54bd2773bd0e7scr_1421675338-700x355.png)
(http://www.editshare.com/assets/images/products/lightworks/hugo-Trimming.png)
(http://cdn3.afterdawn.fi/screenshots/normal/6988.jpg)
(https://latenitefilms.com/media/blog/2010/12/lightworks_console.jpg)
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Today I did a different Red workflow in LW.
Instead of cutting native at 1/8
I bach exported all the ar3D footage in full res
In Prores4444
Despite the 4k, no slowdown whatsoever in Lightworks.
Great great stability with the highest Prores setting.
I was expecting a clear reduction in performances but no.
So I got the Arri point: Prores444 from capture ensures
A very simple workflow but rock solid in all the pipeline
Without having to transcode.
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Impressive. Give us some idea of the hardware setup: drives, bus, videocard etc.
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Impressive. Give us some idea of the hardware setup: drives, bus, videocard etc.
My pleasure.
On this machine in question I run it on
Windows 8 (love it)
32gb Ram...uppsss, edit: 64gb
nVidia GTX 750 I think.
Open GL something
No red rocket so I'm stucked to Premium
I think the Drives are from Samsung but not sure.
Tower is Resolve compliant.(recommended)
My peecees have been built and configurated by a company
Specialized in post production that did everything according
To my limited budget and I trusted them. No regret.
Now, I'm useless in terms of computers. This is an area
I really do not understand and that I avoid touching. So
I delegate to the ones who know : "here is my budget, it has to perform
the best..." Lol
What I suspect is that Prores 444 acts more like an image sequence so it needs more RAM while UHD are more CPU consuming (just like AVCHD family).
Also Lightworks has to do with it. Keep in mind that it has no menu and zero sophistication. It's very much like Nuke implementation. Ultra light. Those softwares are implemented cleverly to bring the max performances.
Arriraw converter for example slows down (and sometimes considerably !) when you start to color while Scratch does not with the same footage. And Scratch seems to be less demanding than Resolve being more sophisticated.
Explain that? Maybe just an impression but I beleive software engineering.
In practise, I see no differences between Prores 444 and 422 in terms of stability. And even if I switch to 10bits display. BUT, if I ingest UHD 4K of one of those exotic hybrid cameras it would slowdown at one point for sure, reminding me the AVCHD saga.
RED native, max debayer at 1/8, idealy at 1/16 otherwise it slows down but never freezes. And having LW and RCX at the same time working together. Now for big volume it's proxy.
Fusion is stable. No freeze nor slowdown whatsoever.
But again, IS are not problematic if enough RAM. Only the render
Can take time but the work itself up to render is iron stable.
Also, there are viewers that are more useable than others.
QT is a pure mess and can freeze with high res footage.
Scratch play does not. I avoid to use QT as much as I can.
In fact I never use it. Too tedious.
Mpc-hc 64bit is a great viewer that does play Prores 444 smoothly
Others are just useless. We could write a book.
Bottom line: many factors are contribuiting to the confort-stability. Numbers are just not always representative of the real life? No idea. Computer engineering, cablery, are like chinese to me.
All I notice if it works as it should or not that much.
But I think that today's peecees are a better investment.
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Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12 as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool? (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/gb/products/davinciresolve/edit)
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Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12 as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool? (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/gb/products/davinciresolve/edit)
I confess I didn't. I use Resolve 11. Sorry not being helpfull here.
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I DO have to check this out sometime...
I falled on this article in the Cow. A bit outdated but it sort of explains quite a lot of things I wanted to transmit on this NLE.
Not from an unreliable low-end land like Fred but from serious Hollywood profesional.
https://library.creativecow.net/battistella_david/lightworks/2
At least nobody will doubt. Yes there is something different and really good
That most people ignore because the mantras are PP and Avid..
Ps: since this text was written, lots of things have been moving on.
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Looks very interesting.
Have you tried the new Resolve 12 as that is now a video editor and not just a grading tool? (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/gb/products/davinciresolve/edit)
It takes a lot of computer to run resolve, even the latest and greatest.
I work on a smaller timeline which helps, but resolve is not the smoothest program but has a beautiful color engine.
The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.
I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.
IMO
BC
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It takes a lot of computer to run resolve, even the latest and greatest.
I work on a smaller timeline which helps, but resolve is not the smoothest program but has a beautiful color engine.
The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.
I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.
IMO
BC
Yeah. Resolve is demanding. People have written books
On that in the motion forums. They sort of built arround what
Was originaly a color software an all-in-one capable featured but to me it still
Smells DIY in the sense that it looks like a house where
Extensions have been added without a global planification from scratch
(no pun intended).
This is a tendency that is going to proliferate. Nuke has
Editing capabilities that were unthinkable a few years ago.
It just reflects the current reality where editors colors and
Colorists edit.
I have been a strong defensor during many time of a all-in-one app,
But I've changed my mind.
In the moment that the roundtripping stays clean, it's way
Faster and much much much more flexible to cut in a
Specialized NLE and then to send to another specialized color-conform application.
I hated roundtripping because I considered it was an old school
Useless way of doing. But I realised that softwares that are
Ultra specialized in one task are in the end a time saver.
Because you use them just for what they do, but they are so well
Implemented that in the end, the fragmentation can be
Much more efficient than an integration, always a compromise and demanding
In terms of power.
If I could afford it today, my color app would be Baselight.
Scratch is very sophisticated, has a reasonable renting
Formula accessible for everyone but might be tedius
In learning curve compared to Resolve.
The Resolve 12 proposal is really nailed, clever, and in tine with our times.
They will sell gazillion licenses. This world will be Blackmagic.
But it's not interesting for me because I don't want to cut
On it.
For an editor who does not have AEs luxury, it's a great option
To go for a swiss army knife because all roundtripp issues
Are happening for the same reasons: mess in file naming and
Folder structures. And then the need to use proxies, so in the
End those are tasks for assistants. But still, the little time
Spended on AAF etc...is not a big deal.
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As an aside Fred, you posts look and read a bit like non rhyming poetry.
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The other issue with resolve 12 is it takes the almost latest operating system on mac, which doesn't allow a secondary startup disk.
How do you mean exactly. Not heard of this before.
I use one base mountain lion disk that is dead reliable and having to move to different startup disks is a pain, even with fast startup ssds.
I'm still on Mountain lion due to the stupid behaviour of later OSXs and multiple monitors. Have wondered about going back to Windows at least it could do multiple monitors and window management intelligently when I used to use it a long time back.
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How do you mean exactly. Not heard of this before.
I'm still on Mountain lion due to the stupid behaviour of later OSXs and multiple monitors. Have wondered about going back to Windows at least it could do multiple monitors and window management intelligently when I used to use it a long time back.
Anything Past Mavericks or maybe yosmite (who can keep up?) requires an apple approved secondary disc for startup (whatever the hell apple approved is).
In fact you have to have a computer that will run yosmite and before I buy I give my mac guys the serial number and they can tell if I can run older os.
Regardless, about resolve for editing as Fred says, resolve is just a series of apps patched together. Great color engine, slow interface, but at least it produces pretty color. For editing, it's not there at least in 11 haven't tried or had time to run through 12.
Doesn't matter because a good nle is a good nle. I don't xml roundtrip that often on short form. I just pull out all the clips from the edited final (usually a few more) arrange them in shot order and color them end to end.
May seem like overkill but gives me room to edit, change do what I want and like I see RED raw to Resolve is very pretty and if I only roundtrip the xml with small handles, I have to go back for changes, so why not just color anything useful.
If there from the same scene just take the memory function, apply it with some slight changes, or tracking and done.
At least it saves me time in the back end because no final lock is ever final lock anymore.
IMO
BC
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Anything Past Mavericks or maybe yosmite (who can keep up?) requires an apple approved secondary disc for startup (whatever the hell apple approved is).
More expensive!
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As an aside Fred, you posts look and read a bit like non rhyming poetry.
I urgently need english classes in serious. In grammar, orthography and
Speaking.
The other day I was filmed while driving and talking in english
About a topic and being concentrated on the sunday's drivers
On the highway
As well as on the conversation in question and not only a strong french accent
But plagued with grammatical mistakes and lack of
Construction.
At least scotish people understand me.
Ps: windows now aren't the garbage they used to be. True that
They aren't as cool and well designed but the power is there and
Windows 8 is much much better than 7, way faster. I love it.
If you don't cut in FCP, go for Windows.
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At least scotish people understand me.
Ps: windows now aren't the garbage they used to be. True that
They aren't as cool and well designed but the power is there and
Windows 8 is much much better than 7, way faster. I love it.
If you don't cut in FCP, go for Windows.
Fred,
I love your English. It beats the hell out of my French and your post are the most thought provoking on this entire site.
Yea, Apple is gone from the creative content production business. The hipsters will still keep an Imac on their desk, but for serious work it's a pc box.
The last generation of silver desktops is selling for more than the mid spec black flower vase so that tells you something.
The deal with us is I cut in fcp 7, probably always will and have all our machines at their highest spec.
I think a lot of u tubers/vimeoers cut in fcp X, but I've never seen a serious production house use X (at least in El Lay) and this constant apple os upgrade per month is maddening.
I don't know the numbers, but I do know that every editorial house I know still runs Avid and FCP 7. I can find a FCP 7 editor in ten minutes and if they moved fcp 7 to something else, they can easily jump back.
I've tried every NLE, Avid, FCP EX, Lightworks, and have a full CC account (which I rarely use) and nothing works in my style as well as 7.
I don't understand the angst of everyone saying "fcp7 is dead oh my what do I do?"
Nobody has to jump every time some company comes out with something new. Only creative guys get freaked by this.
Hell I still use Contax that have been dead forever and works incredibly well, A leica S2 that is long gone in the cmos world of a billion iso, that makes us money, use the RED ones almost weekly and who ever throws away grip when somebody comes out with a new arm or knuckle?
I could care less if apple screws around with OS systems and calls the next one Turtleneck. We all know the goal in the electronic world is to move you to something new and we all know that any of these companies can make older software compatible, or change their whole business strategy in a heartbeat. Who the hell likes Adobes CC rental system?
S__t you can buy a new I phone and run it on snow leopard with ease because Apple NEEDS the I phone money, final cut pro, $8,000 mac towers Apple and me don't care and the silver macs can be brought up to run as fast as the flower vase, for a lot less than 8 grand.
Anyway, would I move to PeeCee? Yea maybe, but I have 7 workstations in three cities, one huge portable two computer workstation, 4 apple business computers, 7 laptops, 6 apple phones, 4 ipads, a crap load of software, plug ins, etc.
The Powerbooks I use are the latest version 17" made which run thunderbolt, two 1 tb SSD drives and just rock along. One drive is SL, the second is Yosemite and I keep producing work and have a great mac guy that can keep them running forever.
The new I macs are fast, but crappy screens, though you can run a i/o box to them with a broadcast monitor for grading and my three silver workstations are maxed out and run and run, no issues and are damn fast.
Actually since I transcode to proRes proxy, then later ProRes HQ for finish in 2k and uhd/4k, during the editorial process I have no rendering times, until I burn out a file for preview and that takes very little time in 2k, 4k longer.
I really don't understand why everyone loses their mind over not being able to cut in native files. ProRes is the basic standard, doesn't bog down the nle so whether you transcode in the bg or the front end, your still transcoding.
Going to finish with the graded clips is a little longer, but no client sets in the editing station waiting for final locked and conformed in their usual 10 deliverables.
I personally love FCP 7, except for a more modern browser and more utilization of ram and multi core, I wouldn't change a thing.
Anyway, this is the first section of a presentation for an At-Edge/CA Magazine production.
Shot on RED 1's, cut and conformed in fcp7, colored in Resolve 11. This is just the base edit, the final will have visuals/vo with a story in the front and back.
SAY YOU DON'T LOVE ME LITTLE MOVIE (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/say_you_dont_love_me_short2.m4v)
Reliable and no extra learning curve is a great timesaver.
IMO
BC
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Thanks for the kind words James.
Well, you're right on fcp7.
In fact, the proxy workflow is not such a burden
And the only way to keep stability in the editorial
Room, and also it allows to cut everywhere with
A laptop.
I do not understand either the mantras on cutting native.
When I read the dudes in the Red forum "i shoot dragon 6k"...blabla
But I'd like to see the same guy in his editorial suite
Handeling 200 6k R3D and cutting at ease in real time...
It's just not going to happen.
Scorcese movies are cutted in proxies, like I guess
All Hollywood movies.
So FCP7 is not outdated at the moment you are doing
Your own work. It would be different if you where
On set working for others or got imposed to work
In a Avid room.
Why changing something that works for you?
In the moment it does not affect your business, it's
Better staying like this indeed. You know the
Workflow and how to extract the best of it.
A lot of people are still cutting in fcp7.
Also I completly understand you on switching peecee.
A guy like me, one small editorial studio, 3 computers
It's really easy to make the switch. But when you got
3 studios all equiped, that's another story.
I guess it has to do with investment-reward equation.
Maybe, you could try to reequiped the smallest of your
Satelite studios and see what happens and if it's worth.
Unless your clients don't ask you for 8k under pressure,
Switching to windows is probably pointless.
I think in your case I would do the same: staying fcp7
And Mac, unless Mac really becomes a truth burden within
The business. But I don't think we are there yet.
Cheers.
Ps: i'm currently having a coffee outside and your link
Takes ages to load because I don't catch a decent internet
Conection. I'll open it at home.
Time to look also for new mobile phone.
I'm completly fed-up of being tracked by google and Co.
The solution is called: blackphone. (silent circle)
Those are the onces used by politicians and big business
Executives who need complete privacy. They now sell them
To the public for 800bucks. Check that.
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Fred,
I love your English. It beats the hell out of my French and your post are the most thought provoking on this entire site.
Yea, Apple is gone from the creative content production business. The hipsters will still keep an Imac on their desk, but for serious work it's a pc box.
The last generation of silver desktops is selling for more than the mid spec black flower vase so that tells you something.
The deal with us is I cut in fcp 7, probably always will and have all our machines at their highest spec.
I think a lot of u tubers/vimeoers cut in fcp X, but I've never seen a serious production house use X (at least in El Lay) and this constant apple os upgrade per month is maddening.
I don't know the numbers, but I do know that every editorial house I know still runs Avid and FCP 7. I can find a FCP 7 editor in ten minutes and if they moved fcp 7 to something else, they can easily jump back.
I've tried every NLE, Avid, FCP EX, Lightworks, and have a full CC account (which I rarely use) and nothing works in my style as well as 7.
I don't understand the angst of everyone saying "fcp7 is dead oh my what do I do?"
Nobody has to jump every time some company comes out with something new. Only creative guys get freaked by this.
Hell I still use Contax that have been dead forever and works incredibly well, A leica S2 that is long gone in the cmos world of a billion iso, that makes us money, use the RED ones almost weekly and who ever throws away grip when somebody comes out with a new arm or knuckle?
I could care less if apple screws around with OS systems and calls the next one Turtleneck. We all know the goal in the electronic world is to move you to something new and we all know that any of these companies can make older software compatible, or change their whole business strategy in a heartbeat. Who the hell likes Adobes CC rental system?
S__t you can buy a new I phone and run it on snow leopard with ease because Apple NEEDS the I phone money, final cut pro, $8,000 mac towers Apple and me don't care and the silver macs can be brought up to run as fast as the flower vase, for a lot less than 8 grand.
Anyway, would I move to PeeCee? Yea maybe, but I have 7 workstations in three cities, one huge portable two computer workstation, 4 apple business computers, 7 laptops, 6 apple phones, 4 ipads, a crap load of software, plug ins, etc.
The Powerbooks I use are the latest version 17" made which run thunderbolt, two 1 tb SSD drives and just rock along. One drive is SL, the second is Yosemite and I keep producing work and have a great mac guy that can keep them running forever.
The new I macs are fast, but crappy screens, though you can run a i/o box to them with a broadcast monitor for grading and my three silver workstations are maxed out and run and run, no issues and are damn fast.
Actually since I transcode to proRes proxy, then later ProRes HQ for finish in 2k and uhd/4k, during the editorial process I have no rendering times, until I burn out a file for preview and that takes very little time in 2k, 4k longer.
I really don't understand why everyone loses their mind over not being able to cut in native files. ProRes is the basic standard, doesn't bog down the nle so whether you transcode in the bg or the front end, your still transcoding.
Going to finish with the graded clips is a little longer, but no client sets in the editing station waiting for final locked and conformed in their usual 10 deliverables.
I personally love FCP 7, except for a more modern browser and more utilization of ram and multi core, I wouldn't change a thing.
Anyway, this is the first section of a presentation for an At-Edge/CA Magazine production.
Shot on RED 1's, cut and conformed in fcp7, colored in Resolve 11. This is just the base edit, the final will have visuals/vo with a story in the front and back.
SAY YOU DON'T LOVE ME LITTLE MOVIE (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/say_you_dont_love_me_short2.m4v)
Reliable and no extra learning curve is a great timesaver.
IMO
BC
I finaly could open the link.
Great talents (the woman is gorgeous), great music.
I guess it's a lingerie (don't know the word in english. Lingery? Stockings
And all that) advert (or that's what it transmits to me).
The grading is nailed.
I watched it on 2 monitors. One calibrated 10bit and one
Not calibrated. I always check on a consumer monitor that
Everyone has because the calibrated display is not what
People will see.
So, no gamma shift at all, consistency. I particularly like the
Fact that you kept DR and not crushed blacks.
Crushing blacks works for the car race imagery, transmiting
More agressivity, but for lingery, you were wised to keep
Subtle shades so it looks more refined.
Normaly, my 8bit uncalibrated display tends to be more
Saturated and crushes earlier, but in your video the shade
Information is kept intact, just like in the 10bit display.
Of course, the naughty inevitable internet compression
Appears here or there. Web compression is a complete nightmare.
The only thing I found that sort of works is to upload
A vimeo or youtube h264 in constant bitrate at 12000 minimum
And nkt listening to their recommendations of 8000
Because they recompress an already compressed file and
Artifacts are at the party.
Thanks for sharing.
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I urgently need english classes in serious. In grammar, orthography and
Speaking.
The other day I was filmed while driving and talking in english
About a topic and being concentrated on the sunday's drivers
On the highway
As well as on the conversation in question and not only a strong french accent
But plagued with grammatical mistakes and lack of
Construction.
At least scotish people understand me.
;D
I wish my French or German for that matter was as good as your English.
Ps: windows now aren't the garbage they used to be. True that
They aren't as cool and well designed but the power is there and
Windows 8 is much much better than 7, way faster. I love it.
If you don't cut in FCP, go for Windows.
I recall playing with Vegas whilst on the PC, so very easy to use. The software got out of the way and you just edited. No manual needed to get going even as a complete novice.
The things that made Premiere Pro finally usable in my eyes was all the stuff they took that Vegas had a decade earlier. Still needed to consult manuals and tutorials to do simple things though.
Vegas was originally designed By Sonic Foundry who made interesting audio software like Acid and Vegas was more like such audio software rather than the other NLEs that were around.
Shame Sony sat on it and didn't really push it forward, heck Sony laptops would come with Premiere installed.
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On XML, i was able to export a Cinex
"edit" in Lightworks but never was able
To redo the process from LW to Cinex importing
XML. And I gave-up to try to understand.
Of course, it's because I'm messing somewhere.
Or not because Cinex is not really built to roundtripp
Backwards, so it's limited.
In LW The roundtripp to Resolve is super easy with AAF.
But curiously I'm being lazy. Well, since I can use 3d luts
In the editor and in the end the color tools are strong enough
To prepare the footage for Luts, I avoid roundtripping to Resolve
Except if tracking masks are necesary.
In the end what I do is that I build Looks in Scratch play that
I save as .cube and aplly the look in LW. Then use the color
Tools to finetune.
As Lightworks output all reso, I rarely go out the editor
Cause I can conform directly in 2k or more, DCPs compliants in one click.
There is even a 4k for the web.
So step by step, I find myself using less and less Resolve
And all is done in Lightworks.
In the end I run Cinex and Arriraw, ingest all the prores
In LW or native Raw if not big edit and between what Cinex can do,
And Scratch, then it's a Lut affair (and each lit can be assigned
A % on track so it's dead flexible.
And as Lightworks features the blending modes also like
In P.S, the possibilities are just almost infinite. (for film grain etc...)
As the prores 444 is surprisingly very smooth, that's really
Not necesarly to go Resolve.
No nodes, just layers that are the tracks but it's photoshop
Way of thinking. The only thing is that LW only outputs
10bit DPX for big reso and those are huge files.
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I hated roundtripping because I considered it was an old school
Useless way of doing. But I realised that softwares that are
Ultra specialized in one task are in the end a time saver.
Is it old-school to collaborate? The reason I love reundtripping is that it allows me to work with people who are better than me at various parts of the process.I don't like to edit my own stuff, because I am better when I have just a bit of distance fromthe process. And the editors I work with have good ideas. But I like coloring my work, and I'm fairly good at it, so I roundtrip back to my place for that. Or sometimes, when there's money, go to a colorist who's much better than I am.
I don't get out enough anyway, If I did all the edit and color and sound and... whatever for my productions, I'd never come out of the studio.
DAF
-
Is it old-school to collaborate? The reason I love reundtripping is that it allows me to work with people who are better than me at various parts of the process.I don't like to edit my own stuff, because I am better when I have just a bit of distance fromthe process. And the editors I work with have good ideas. But I like coloring my work, and I'm fairly good at it, so I roundtrip back to my place for that. Or sometimes, when there's money, go to a colorist who's much better than I am.
I don't get out enough anyway, If I did all the edit and color and sound and... whatever for my productions, I'd never come out of the studio.
DAF
You touch the point. It's not that much that I think collaborate is crap.
But this industry is changing at the speed of light.
In the US, you have a bigger volume of production and
Maybe the impact is different. Here in Europe, what happens
Is that the industry has been pushed to the extremes: or
It is high-end elite, or it is low-end. Middle houses have
Almost completly disapeared.
So logically the workflows reflect that in the sense that
Editors who were not in the right place are obliged to color
And often to compo. This is very much a slavery market.
Clients don't have the budgets they spent years ago in
Advertising. Everybody becones a swiss army knife.
So collaboration is often reduced to the minimum if not
None in most of the low-end prods. But they are a big part
Of the market.
Cine is almost dead here and needs injection of production
From broadcast. And when teevees that belongs to big
Media groups, that are controled by politicians (so brain washing
For the masses guarantee), put money on feature film,
It's the end of quality: isabel the catholic prude saga or
a girl in stockings explaining to the puritains
How to use a pinky plastic dildo... wicked!
A ridiculous and vulgar example is the Berlusconi's empire,
You don't have idea of the level of crapperies produced
In order to maintain the less educated people in complete
Soporific state of mind. So the whole buzz can happily keep going: get married,
Get a mortgage that belongs to banks, reproduce yourself so that
The system needs working slaves and watch a lot of socker games
And bad porno in order to not think too much about all that...The most Redneck areas of the US
You can think of are Harvard campus compared to the content that's
Produced by those medias.
Bread and circus....
It's to the point that the most inteligent stuff watcheable now
Are Discovery channel prods. Wheeler dealers, Gaz Monky
Or those dudes looking for gold in Akaska...
Much better scripts, better color, better entertainment.
So here we go. When you had before 10 people on set with
Mil mil helicopters at 3000 bucks the hour, now you got 3 with drones
And costs 300 per hour. Or 30....
Collaborate. But with who? Some years ago I was assisting
A big fish here and between the dudes who could you seriously
Talk to? Most where barely able to connect 3 words together in a correct lenguage
And as soon as they was a pause they all where inmersed
In their stupid i.phones. the only conversation topic
Was the i.phone apps or the make-up endorsements.
Loreal, whatsapp and Apple have contribuited to that.
-
I just discovered something quite impressive in Lightworks.
I had an old edit in wich I had made a render that flattened
The layers (tracks) and all fx.
I normaly do copies of edits to keep always the raw ones
But in this case I didn't.
Big was my surprise when I opened the old project and
By just doing undos several time, all the steps were still available
As if I was working in the present moment so I could revert
To the unrendered stage and got all my tracks and fx back
In the timeline, and this, mounths later.
This is a very powerrfull feature I ignored.
This NLE ain't a toy.
-
That's very neat.
And incredibly useful/powerful
-
Verified by me: complete integration with
Blackmagic fusion (in the style of AE works with PP)
Reads the RMD looks from RCX
It also has a AE plug-in but never tested it.
It is bundeled with Boris look or so for free on certain
Rental conditions.
There is a list somewhere, but at the moment I'm at the....
....dentist waiting room...upppsss
Tonight I look at it
-
Now that's a great feature.
Any list of lightworks plug ins?
IMO
BC
Out of the dentist!
It supports Aja, Matrox and blackmagic devices
Has integration with AE and Fusion
And some Boris stuff but I don't use them and ignore those.
Roundtripp to Resolve is done via AAF
And I also know that it is really strong with audio devices
And control surfaces used in Hollywood.
If you didn't, read the article from the Hollywood editor I linked
In a previous entry above because you'll have an idea of
What it does from a truth high-end editor.
https://library.creativecow.net/battistella_david/lightworks/2
What I want to stress is that it features an implementation
That you can't find elsewhere and that reveals really
Incredible in use. I'll mention a few:
- you can have multiples edits open at once in the same
Windowspace. With their corresponding timelines, side by side. Not like switching
From one to another within a fixed position.
- you have rooms. The rooms are really unique. Each room
Is an entire workspace arrangement in itself. For ex, you edit something,
Then you do another version, arranging the windows differently, applying alternative WB or whatever,
Etc...so when you switch from a room to another, you got
All the content and arrangements you left the room.
I use them like this: in one room I got all my medias, in another I could
Arrange-edit-color just certain type of files.
In anothet room I got "edit1", in another room I got "edit1-2"...
So...you can switch to one or another on a clic, compare versions,
Or assign a specific task.
But each room has arrangement-task-content independence.
And at the same time, all the material of all rooms is accesible whatever
Room you are in. For ex, if you're in room1, and you want to
Grab an edit that is in room 3, you don't need to switch to room 3 for
That as there is one mega bin for all.
The megabin is dividible in sub-bins etc...
This is absolutly crazy in terms of creativity flexibility.
It's an enormous timesaver and enhance creativity.
And no other NLE does that.
-Then, the sync is just amazing (read the editor article)
So you never have to worry about that
-the waveform is really great. It renders them on import just
Once. Period. Then, no re-render on zooming, no refresh.
Yesterday I had a 45mn audio track and it took about a minute
To render all the waveform (in background), but then,
No more refresh nor hesitation like in other NLEs.
-also, no menu and almost no buttons. What costs 3 steps
In Avid costs 1 in LW. No useless complications.
What has to work just does in a clic.
(again see the sync stuff and it tells you all).
I've tried them all except FCP and LW is the fastest and
Made FOR editors. As long as it exists, I won't cut elsewhere.
But Fred ain't Coot in the sense that I'm in the low-end territory
And that's why I linked this hollywood editor article, so
You'll have an idea from a real pro point of view.
A note with Red: I said above that it reads the RMD files.
But it's very different than PP and Avid.
You can not load directly in LW any RMD. What happens
Is that it links the R3D to a corresponding RMD that has
Been generatedin RCX. So in LW, RCX is usefull actually
In the sense that LW updates any intervention you did
In RCX, as long as you saved your RMD.
So you could color in RCX and the timeline will be updated
With the look you created in Cinex.
But as you wouldn't cut native everything, the workflow
Then is the same as the one you'd have with FCP7.
Just cut prores and then roudtripp Resolve.
However, when you need fast turnarround, just bring
Your native Red into it, remembering that what you do
In Cinex will be taken into account.
If you want to conform in the editor, you can and output in DPX
Any Red format of your choice or standarts DCPs. There are presets for that.
So if you need 4k, you'll have 4k with one of the standarts
Aspect ratio of Red. But it's DPX. Or I.S. (tiff etc...).
Otherwise, conform Resolve wich is more logical but not obliged.
The only real problem I see with it is this:
The real knowledgeable dudes who use it do not
Post in internet because they are Hollywood editors
Ultra busy. And so the dudes who frequent the lw forums
Are mostly amateurs that generaly take advantage
Of the rental plan. LW is not present in the middle range
Market so finding real tutos at pro level is not easy.
Most of the tutos in youtube or vimeo are amateur
Level. So it can be intimidating because you're a bit
On your own to be honest. And the editshare pro support
Is really expensive.
Think of it like a super sport car handmade by a small company.
-
Discovered another thing...
Wao!
Not only it keeps a register of the steps so you
Can revert, by default 10 steps kept in register but
If you want more 30, 40, you need to configurate it on script
File, a bit like Nuke with python. It is easy.
But has 2 levels of security.
If the undo method failed, then there is a "revert" option
In a render that restituate the clip at it's original
Stage but with keeping (restituing) at the same time
All fx (or any alteration to the original, color, reframe...) applied, but unflattened.
What is the advantage of this?
Huge.
The undo means that if you want to reach an edit you did
Let's say 20 steps before, you'll need to undo 20 times.
And if you haven't touched the project for days or weeks,
It can take long to reach the stage in question.
But with this second security, you just points directly to the
Section you want, right click and "revert", and bang...
Back with your previous steps but just where you needed to.
-
All that woke-up my curiosity
And there are 3 more ways to "undo"!
But that becomes like writting a book.
Actualy, when I got time I think it's worth that I
Do a video on all the tricks and capabilities
Of it in real situation, showing things that have
Not been published so far.
It would be quite a long video because there is a lot
To say...but I seriously
Consider it because the more people know-use
It, the better.
If I do it I'll post the vimeo link here.
Ps: Coot, I've been looking at third-party plug-ins and
It is a complete mess that has to be grouped because
For one side there is the "official" list and then in the forum
A myriad of others bring by the users who tested this or that, that are working too.
Honestly, I'm too lazy-busy to enquire in serious because
It seems to be quite a lot, some are updated, others aren't...a bit the wild west.
But:
-you don't need a sync app in it. (2 sync ways with or without timecode)
-you don't need a color app like Baselight plug-in because
It takes 3D luts at display and clip level and its color
Tools are powerfull enough to do all task and we would
Color in Resolve anyway.
-you don't need subtitle script, I have one I never use
Because the lowerthird are quicker to use than a third-party app.
And as all is configurable and saveable as template in a
Location-name at your aim, then, you end to build your own custom
Things.
Customization is not limited by the number of fx (or nodes)
So you can really shape things the way you want and
Become reusable template.
Also, the fx code is open. Users who understand programming can create their own effects.
There is a vault that group all users fx. Some are good, others
Not so good. As expected. Of course, the Hollywood gurus do not
Share theirs.
Really, all what's needed is a compo app and Fusion or AE
Are fully compatible.
I haven't performed tests so far with Sratch. Need to do it.
If there is a way to Assimilate Scratch integration like
Fusion is, then the use od Resolve would become completly
Meaningless. But it ain't easy and so far haven't dig into that.
They used Scratch in Aviator to create the 2 strips technicolor
Look. And scratch is particularly aimed at beauty advert.
It would be fantastic to be able to roundtripp to Scratch
In an integrated way.
Been doing lots of stab and object removals in Fusion and it takes
A few minutes.
Also did tested with ACES workflow from Red open EXR export
And it works as it should. The only weak part of the chain is me
Regarding ACES.
Blackmagic fusion is great: you install Blackmagic Fusion and
Lightworks automatically recognize it and available in the fx
Panel. No need to do anything. Got a clip that needs a stab?
Just press Fusion, and you're in fusion, do your comp. Save it
And automaticaly back in LW that asks you if you want to
Replace the clip by the fusion comp. Done! 2 clicks.
-
The thing that bugs me about most NLE's vs. my fcp7 is everytime you start a new sequence or project you have to go to a different room or whatever they call it.
I can keep one project with two dozen sequences (or think of them as alternate projects, without ever closing a window or re linking. Just copy and past, then start cutting.
Also I don't use a lot of plug ins most noise killing, film looks I keep in resolve, but sometimes you need them just to quickly match up on the timeline, especially if your in a hurry and the tweek is just to match up scenes or clips.
I could care less about a lot of these flaky striped, 1990s psychodelic looks, because in fcp I can make those transitions myself.
I loathe magic bulllet as it eats power like crazy and canned looks aren't my deal, so if it's not compatiable I don't care.
Same with most others.
The two plug in's I have to use are beauty box, which is great for lightly cleaning up faces and film emulation because I can even out the looks but once again, I do most of this in resolve.
Thanks
BC
I hear you.
Actually your working method can be done in LW.
Rooms are not an obligation.
You can have one active timeline, wich is an editn-sequence and have
Open as much other edits or in your workspace area if you wich
Without having to change or leave the workspace,
Or accesible in the bin itself (and timelines are showable in bins as
Well as mark-park and keys)
And you just inserts edits where you want-need just like you would
Insert footage.
In LW everything is a clip. There is no nested sequence
Notion needed. The concept itself of sequence vanishes.
Copy edits or sequences is one clic, (or the entire edit or the marked part or the cut itself)
And it's automaticaly saved as a new edit independant.
Or use it as a clip, or as an edit with all the timeline and tracks
Available of course.
So you can have as many sequences as you want and
Copy-paste them in your active one. Actually not even need
To 'copy', (the copy-paste notion in LW is in fact one click) just clic one button and it brings the sequence
Into your timeline active sequence one where your cursor is or if you marked
At the marked point, and of course the insert can be an overwritte,
It works for sequences also,
Respecting the track order you had.
Importing projects within project is also possible.
In the end, projects, sequences, copies of sequences, of clips,
Versionings of sequences, alterated edits, copies of the copies,
All work the same: just a clip.
It gives the possibilities to work with rooms but
Again, rooms are not obliged at all.
So your fcp workflow is absolutly possible.
Goshhhh...I sound like an editshare vendor.
Time to shut my month. Lol.
Ps: not shutting my month yet. Film emulation in LW
Are acheived actually by 3d luts.
I have some Redlogfilm-to redgamma whatever flavour Luts
That are absolutly reliable because I tested them on fusion
And scratch and are 100% exact with Red color science official.
So it's about grabing the reliable pro luts and there are
In Kodak, Fuji etc...much better than the preheated
Looks of the third-party plugins because those aren't lightworks'
But matrixes from the industry itself, like the ones from the Arri lut generator.
And, when using Lut, you have control on the % applied on each
Track or layer wich avoids some exagerations of certain luts.
It acts exactly like a % transparency in Photoshop.
Same blending modes as PS are also available.
So if got an Redlogfilm and want to go rec709 without
Having to use RCX or Fusion, all I have to do is to apply
RLF to rec 709 lut in lw and that's it. Same with film look.
As long as you can grab the good onces with the correct Matrixes,
Witch can be tedius because the world of luts is plagued
With unreliable stuff indeed...the very wild west.
Ask the people of Raw DNG: where are the official Blackmagic onces
For film mode?
Nowhere!
About beauty box, no this plugin is not available in LW
But is in Resolve I beleive.
-
http://www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=176
;D
-
More discoveries:
-it takes all footage from i.phone6 very nicely.
Never used i.phone footage on it before. No prob.
-in still images (and this is a huge difference with Avid
That can do it but with menu within menu...)
Just insert your stills into the edit and there is nothing to
Do because it respects the native resolution of the
Still image independently of your video reso. So it's
Just a question of framing, zooming and positioning
As you wish. No hassles, no useless complications, just
As we expect it should be: straighforward.
Nota: this behaviour with stills is also true with footage.
If you have a 1080p environement and you ingest 4k Red,
You have nothing to do because your 4k will have 4k reso
Independently of your output and working area. So
You just reframe, zoom-in or out, repositionned and
The native reso is respected. The only point to remember
If you conform in it is to make sure your debayer is at the max.
That's it.
-
Seems similar, in this respect, to Resolve and Premiere? Or is there more here?
More discoveries:
-it takes all footage from i.phone6 very nicely.
Never used i.phone footage on it before. No prob.
-in still images (and this is a huge difference with Avid
That can do it but with menu within menu...)
Just insert your stills into the edit and there is nothing to
Do because it respects the native resolution of the
Still image independently of your video reso. So it's
Just a question of framing, zooming and positioning
As you wish. No hassles, no useless complications, just
As we expect it should be: straighforward.
Nota: this behaviour with stills is also true with footage.
If you have a 1080p environement and you ingest 4k Red,
You have nothing to do because your 4k will have 4k reso
Independently of your output and working area. So
You just reframe, zoom-in or out, repositionned and
The native reso is respected. The only point to remember
If you conform in it is to make sure your debayer is at the max.
That's it.
-
Seems similar, in this respect, to Resolve and Premiere? Or is there more here?
No idea. As I don't use PP and Resolve just for grading (and use Resolve less and less because of Scratch, I got it very abandoned). But yes, this behaviour seems to me what we'd expect so it wouldn't be a surprise to find the same simplicity in PP and Resolve.
You can choose (according to the way you do) or that the image behave as an image, what I described, or that it becomes a clip, therefore linked to your Project environement in terms of reso. Here again, nothing special. Just that it does it without having to think, enter into a menu and so on but only a procedure or another.
-
It does seem that Lightworks does a lot of things in a way that "just makes sense." If gets more interesting to me every time you write about it.
No idea. As I don't use PP and Resolve just for grading (and use Resolve less and less because of Scratch, I got it very abandoned). But yes, this behaviour seems to me what we'd expect so it wouldn't be a surprise to find the same simplicity in PP and Resolve.
You can choose (according to the way you do) or that the image behave as an image, what I described, or that it becomes a clip, therefore linked to your Project environement in terms of reso. Here again, nothing special. Just that it does it without having to think, enter into a menu and so on but only a procedure or another.
-
It does seem that Lightworks does a lot of things in a way that "just makes sense." If gets more interesting to me every time you write about it.
Their facebook is not bad and it seems editshare is doing
A real effort in making video tutorials with real editing situations.
Their ones on multicam and console are going in the
Right direction to show the potential of it.
But I'd like here to points maybe the things I don't like or think
It still misses, cause I'm not an editshare vendor...lol!
There are features I'd like to see:
- no native arriraw in editor
- no hability so far (it has been asked by many and hopefully
Will be answered) to use PSD files with or without layers
- no hability to export in open EXR (also asked many times for
Quite some time)
- the node panel is not very well designed, connections are
Not straights but curvely (don't know why really) and a bit unnatural to deal with.
- the console is too expensive indeed, due to the fact that it's
Handmade and small production.
- the frustration of the fact that the color tools are really
Good enough and the lack of polygon masks rests it full control
Wich would have been indeed perfect. So a roundtrip
To resolve or Fusion still is absolutly necesesary for serious
Grading. No polygon masks=big missing feature. But it is
Before all a NLE and not a swiss army knife so no real complain
On this aspect. But...in an ideal world...
To me personaly, Arriraw ok cause I got the Arri converter.
The clumpsy node window not really a problem because we hardly use it.
Color as we say is probably better a NLE centers to be a pure
Great NLE and leave the color tasks to a specialized app.
But open EXR and PSD (with layers) IMO would't be a luxury.
Its strengh is indeed the editing, the story. This is where
It shines and where everything makes sense and
All is implemented for speed and efficiency. Ain't an all-in-one.
And does not seem Editshare wants to push it that way
But keep the philosophy of the pure NLE.
Is it a good or a bad thing? In our time where it seems that
Things are evolving to Resolve12 kind of philosophy, it may appear
As a bad thing. BUT...
I am absolutly convinced that in the hands of someone who
Takes the time to learn it, it has no rival in terms of speed,
Including the necessary roundtrippings to color or comp and
Without the special need of the console, although the console
Would be ideal. But I think that the 3000 bucks of the console
Only makes sense for those die hard editors in L.A who
Only do that, are well paied and have AEs.
A hundred bucks dedicated keyboard does the job perfectly.
Ps: oh yeah! Another thing that looks stupid but ain't stupid:
You can build your own interface, having your own company
Logo, buttons etc...cause all the visual interface are just images png
And so by just replacing those images you shape it the way
You want. Clean code. It's also question that the code
Will be released to the public in a not so far future.
For example I don't use the native buttons but personal buttons
I find more comfortable. Same with the code (but it's an area
I don't touch nor master), like python is for Nuke.
The customization can be total.
-
I forgot to precise something about sequences-edits.
Maybe you remember that I pointed the fact that in LW eveything is a clip and therefore the concepts of nested sequences vanish.
But you are not stucked to any sort of track order nor naming.
To illustrate this point I take an example.
Let's say you have "edit1" composed by V1-V2-A1-A2-A3-A4. you're working on it so you're recording in LW terminology.
You stop to work on it and create a new edit called edit2. Edit1 then becomes a clip and now you're recording edit2.
Then
you want to insert (or overwrite) edit1 into edit2. LW doesn't care of the tracks order.
What was V1-V2-A1-A2-A3-A4 in edit 1 could be inserted in edit 2 in V10-V40-A5-A6-A12-A8, keeping of course all
edit decisions, fx, marks etc...done in edit1.
You choose wich tracks have to be enabled or not.
So you are not obliged to follow a logic or another. All you have to do is:
1)choose the tracks enabled for insert-overwrite
2)in-out your edit 1, press a key: done! it's now in edit2 at the place you want and with the tracks you want. Nothing more to do.
LW reorganise and redistribute everything automatically, keeping all edit decisions.
In that sense, what Coot doesn't like very much, the rooms, makes all sense.
instead of having to look constantly into the bin to grab this or that edit, or having your workingspace full of multiple edit.sequences
that can quickly become a mess, here is how the rooms speed-up drasticaly the workflow as well as they help to be organised in your mind:
Room 1: got edit1,2,3 at the same time. (working on those)
Room2: got main-edit1 (in waiting mode)
I'm working in edit1 a bit, then edit2...
then when I want to insert those edits into main-edit, I don't have to refer to the bin to find main-edit, nor open it, place it etc...
it's already open in room2, and already displayed as I want.
So all I have to do is enter room2. point. And insert-overwrite any parts of edit1,2,3
So rooms are areas, spaces where certain clips,sequences, edits are opened in an organisation you choose. There are all active and switchable at the same time.
You could have a room called: night-shots
another called: multicam
another called: main-edit
and in each room you just have displayed and activated what you need where you need without any sort of mess.
Work in your multicam edit in the room called multicam with the multicam bin etc...
but some other tasks would nor require the multicam bin so you'd need to close the multicam, open another bin and so on...
With the rooms, no need to close, open, reorganise anything...it's all there! need to insert this multicam edit in main edit?
just enters main-edit room (one click) where now you're into your main edit organized differently from multicam because the tasks are different and insert what you did previously in your multicam edit.
No other NLE in the market today is bringing such capability. So rooms are not complicating anything, on the contrary, they speed-up drasticaly as well as help to be super organised.
Indeed, editing stresses enough the brain that we don't need to have to refer constantly to the bins or this or that footage or these or those edits. So the rooms are designed precisely to Access inmediatly
everything you need for a specific task, in an area organised to perform those tasks and-or Access the material involved and needed.
They are also designed to acess inmediatly (if you are with the director or client) any sort of versionning.
Let's say you have edit-version1 and want to discuss with the client an alternative edit called version2.
All you have to do is to switch between room version1 or 2, where your edits are active and displayed as you wanted.
No need to go to a bin, double click on version2, waiting it displays etc...
In LW it's all there, no wait, no search, no mess.
Yes, maybe this feature will certainly be more relevant for big volume, complex editing that will chalenge the mind. True. But even for short form it reveals
really usefull.
Now, if you want to ignore the rooms and work like in a traditional NLE, you can. But when you try the rooms, you won't look back beleive me.
(http://www.film.ru/sites/default/files/images/thelma-schoonmaker1.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mCfOE_s6Z3k/maxresdefault.jpg)
see that there is very Little mess on her workingspace (not talking about her desk wich is clean (not like Coot's one ;D just to tease a bit) but the NLE working area)
-
Gosh...this stuff is even faster than I thought.
Multiple timelines within the same workspace! Holy crap!
And not talking of just clips timelines but edits-sequences
With all their tracks.
Displayed where you want: side by side, up-down etc...
You can have displayed lets say 10 sequences (or more) as if they
Were multicam display, use each timeline when needed
And insert into a main edit, also in the same workspace.
The only spacial limitation being your monitor size.