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Author Topic: Michael Tapes Sony review  (Read 28370 times)

Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2015, 01:54:58 pm »



To call this camera a game-changer is absurd.

If the game was vendor lock in PDAF with Canon glass certainly changes it.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2015, 04:15:05 pm »

Hi,

Just to say, a good exposure metering system and good histograms go a long way to avoid bad exposures.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Pieter,

I think that it depends ..., as usual. We already (should) know that most cameras have a somewhat optimal trade-off between DR, ISO, and S/N ratio, at approximately ISO 800-1600. People like Jim Kasson have posted results about that for various cameras. For faster shutter speeds, one can just underexpose at that ISO and push in postprocessing. For higher DR and S/N ratio, one drops the ISO and exposes with more Photons. It's as simple as that, the best one can do is not make mistakes during testing and predictably arrive at that same conclusion every time.

But that's not what the Part 1 test was about. As Michael explained, he often is confronted with rapidly changing exposure situations and the need for higher shutterspeeds, and the risk of underexposure (or highlight clipping) is a part of reality. That's one of the reasons he tested what he presented.

Cheers,
Bart
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2015, 04:25:16 pm »

Hi Folks,

Thanks for taking the time to watch my video and sending your comments and feedback. All is taken in and appreciated. Please allow me to take this opportunity to put the video into a fuller context. Not in any special order or significance.

  • I am not a fanboy for any camera or camera system. I simply want to take the best pictures that I can, and also I unabashedly love to experiment with and try lots of cameras. Some might say I like to play. Not unlike many others here at LuLa :>)
  • This presentation came about because I was doing some comparisons for myself as I investigated the Canon 5Dsr and Sony A7r2 and shared them with friends and associates. Michael R and Kevin R were 2 of those. Michael invited me to create a presentation for LuLa and Kevin helped to sort out the details. I love to do this kind of testing and welcomed what I see as an opportunity to share my results and observations, and I emphasize my  results and observations since that is what they are, mine. If they are useful to others, great. If not, OK as well. Obviously Michael and Kevin thought that their readers would be interested.
  • I had planned a written introduction, and had some other information in the video that would have placed it into better context, but at 20 minutes, I decided to get right to the point and try to keep to it. Maybe an error on my part. Some ask, why not a written review? .....the answer is simple. I find writing technical pieces very painful, while making videos, is hard and tedious, but fun and satisfying for me. My goal in life is to have as much fun as possible without hurting anyone, so for me, it has to be videos :>)
  • I have a love/hate relationship with the Sony. While I gush about the dynamic range and IQ in general I think it is a poorly designed camera in terms of the HUI. In general I do not like handling the camera. Whether that is because I am simply used to the Canon UI or if it simply does not mesh with my preferences and hands, only time will tell. At one point I thought that i would sell my Canon 5DsR, since the Sony has "better" IQ, but I continue to be drawn to the much better "shootability" of the Canon (for me, YMMV). For now, they are both useful tools for me, so I am keeping both of them.
  • In terms of the actually testing. I agree and stated that it is not scientific, but please do not assume that what you see is the total sum of my research. For example, I extensively used RawDigger to correlate my visual tests, and decided not to present the RawDigger data to keep the presentation more simple (20 mins already!) and geared to as wide an audience as possible. I made very deliberate decisions as to what and how I would present the data, and it might not be perfect for all, but the feedback from a pre-publication viewing audience of friends and associates led me to my final presentation format and content. I trust that it will be useful or of interest to at least some of you :>)
  • I am an active photographer, mostly concentrating on Bird Photography these days, but I enjoy and partake in whatever interests me at the moment. Here are 3 recent shots, one each on the A7r2 (Stacked Macro with Sony 90mm), 1Dx (Bird in Flight with 1Dx and Canon 400mm DO II), 5DsR (Bird portrait with Canon 600mm f4 II).
  • When shooting Birds in Flight (BIF), high shutter speeds is a requirement, and that leads to high ISOs. That is one of many reasons why high ISO testing is of interest to me. Also, exposure during BIF is predominantly done manually (there is good reason) which can lead to gross errors if one does not track the changing light carefully. For example a cloud can sneak in on me when my mind is somewhere else, and I miss the exposure change and end up with a grossly underexposed picture. That is one of the reasons to test for the ability to bring up shadow detail from underexposed RAW files. I try to learn the full capabilities of the tools at hand (our cameras and lenses) so that i can best use them in my photographic pursuits.
  • I have much data and observations in hand already, and more to gather. I hope to present 2 or 3 additional videos to share my further observations about the Sony and the associated cameras of interest to me. If it is of interest to you as well, then please watch for them on LuLa.

Again, I really appreciate Michael and Kevin giving me this opportunity, and I thank you all again for taking the time to watch and comment.

Respectfully,

Michael Tapes

Hi Michael,

Despite what was said I appreciate your efforts. Had you explained the reasons for the ISO 6400 push my comments would have been different. As I alluded I have a certain fatigue on the DR topic as it has been beaten to death, but I understand why Michael R and Kevin would like to present what you did :)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2015, 05:16:29 pm »

I've done a similar (though less rigourous) comparison between the A7RII and the Pentax Z and it's my sense that the Z has a slight edge.

I'm traveling in Italy at the moment, but I may try and depicted Michael's T's tests when I get home.

Thanks Michael.

Cheers,
Bernard

ednazarko

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Interesting analysis
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2015, 05:20:27 pm »

First, I'm so glad there are people like Michael Tapes who can do painfully detailed, process-y analysis, because I can live happily knowing no one will ever ask me to do it.  I'd have clubbed myself into unconsciousness about the fourth exposure sequence.  Some people have the gift of attention to detail whatever it takes.  I admire (and lack) that.

I'm always amazed at how rapidly people throw up defensive "well I'm happy with what I have so your analysis is wrong" responses to something like this.  It tells me that they either didn't really pay attention, or didn't think very hard about what was being tested.  Or the power of cognitive dissonance defenses runs deep, and really they ARE discomforted a bit, enough to swear they're not.

What I liked about the test is that they represent some very real situations I've encountered, where the light is so abysmal that you have to be insane to be trying to get a photo.  Example from a shoot I did last year: 20x24 foot room with a 20 foot ceiling, and one CFL in a single light fixture about 14 feet up, for lighting... and now it's time to shoot the musicians who are performing for the assembled crowd. And oh yeah, sodium vapor streetlight coming through a window in one corner. Besides ISO 12000 being clearly marginal for a shutter speed sufficient to stop any action at all, there are unsightly shadows everywhere, plus high gloss highlights on dark skinned faces because it's over 90 degrees F and humid.  Sometimes you are forced to torture a file in much the way was done in the analysis. I drag my DSLR gear around because in fact you can deal with really heinous lighting and color balance problems - the files have headroom and foot room everywhere that isn't there in a much nicer to carry APS-C or micro 4/3 kit.

Under 95% of shooting conditions, my Fuji or micro 4/3 kit can produce images that make a customer happy and print at a very nice size for shows.  Which is why I shoot at least 80% of my work now with those kits.  The DSLR comes out when I can't control the shoot lighting, or don't know what might happen.  If I can expose to the right and not have to torture shadows, a point and shoot would probably do the job.  Note the gap in % - I often find myself lugging DSLR gear and afterwards realizing I could have done fine with the smaller systems.

It was interesting how close the systems were - one stop was the definition of "better" which is why as interesting as the Sony kit is, I won't be buying into it.  Lens systems are like gravity - takes an awful lot of energy to break away and go to another system.  With 10-12 Nikkors that cover the range I shoot - Sony is going to have to be much more than 1 stop better here or there on edge of shootable light situations.

And since I'm sure Canon and Nikon will have watched the Tapes tapes, the frogs will leap and the gaps will close, and gravity won't turn out to be such a bad thing.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:22:14 pm by ednazarko »
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MarkL

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 06:33:38 pm »

I buy his products, and have a lot of respect for the guy, but he refers to the Sony a couple of times as a game changer -- I got the feeling it's only a game changer in terms of badly underexposing (by four or five stops) extremely high ISO images, and if you don't do that, then there's hardly any difference between it and the Nikon, and not much between it and the 50mp Canon.

This phrase is horribly overused. It is an incremental update to the sony sensor with some better stabilisation for a $1000 price hike over it's predecessor.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 06:39:53 pm »

It is an incremental update to the sony sensor with some better stabilisation for a $1000 price hike over it's predecessor.

A7R -> A7R2 :

sensor (mp + bsi)
ibis
efcs
better cdaf/os-pdaf
body (design/ergonomics, mount)

does it make it worth $1000 in price ? market decides
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ednazarko

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 07:34:54 pm »

I got the feeling it's only a game changer in terms of badly underexposing (by four or five stops) extremely high ISO images, and if you don't do that, then there's hardly any difference between it and the Nikon, and not much between it and the 50mp Canon.

John - have you never shot in a situation where an image you NEEDED was underexposed, or in a situation where the light was harsh enough that proper exposure was at best theoretical?

No question that in 80% of situations, what's shown is irrelevant.  Frankly, in nearly 90% of situations, shooting with anything above a 1 inch sensor, or an m4/3 sensor,  with great lenses will produce an image indistinguishable from that from a DSLR.  I have personal experience with this - I took the top 4 places in an ASMP annual photo competition for my state, and listened to many senior, and professionally well respected ASMP members tell me how happy they were that my images weren't shot with those crappy small sensor cameras.  All four were shot m4/3.  NONE of them believed it, I had to bring the raw files for them to see.  I had another show where, in disgust and frustration, I offered $100 cash to anyone who could tell me with 80% accuracy which sensor size was used for the 24 images in the show.  I didn't have to shell out any money - in fact, I wish I'd have challenged them to pay ME if they weren't better than random guessing.

What Michael was showing was exactly what I use to decide whether I shoot with a smaller, lighter, but smaller sensor kit, or a DSLR.  His comparison was all full frame sensors... but the conclusion was marginal differences.  But, no question that the differences between full frame and APS-C and micro 4/3 aren't marginal, but nevertheless, under most situations, will produce images indistinguishable from full frame high end DSLRs.  I've put my money on that, with some of the best photographers in the New York City market, and I wish I'd have made them put their money up, because I'd have been able to fund a couple of shows.

I've shot in many situations where my best options were going to produce files that needed serious torture - another post of mine describes one at a private concert in Trinidad, Cuba last year.  If you shoot a lot, I'm surprised if you've not been in similar situations.
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John Camp

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2015, 07:56:10 pm »

To clarify one thing, even though I started this thread I have no problem at all with Michael Tapes' tests and comparisons. What I had a problem with was his characterization of the results, in calling the Sony a game-changer. As I said in the original post, I actually buy stuff from the guy, have done so on a number of occasions, and a couple different products, and so I am familiar with him and trust his stuff and his experiments. But I think the Sony is at best an incremental improvement on a number of existing cameras. I personally don't own any of those cameras -- I own a D800, and consider the 810 only a minor incremental improvement on the 800 -- but do virtually all of my shooting with an m4/3 system. But "game changer" is a sales term, not a testing term.

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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2015, 08:01:36 pm »

On sensor phase detect, copper fabrication, BSI... I would not call that incremental updates. More like a complete redesign.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2015, 08:12:58 pm »

On sensor phase detect, copper fabrication, BSI... I would not call that incremental updates. More like a complete redesign.

True, a complete redesign resulting in a much better alpha camera that generates an incremental change in the overall enveloppe of what 35mm cameras can do.

It will be a game changer for, for example, canyon photography and a mere "what's the excitment about" for many other applications, such as tripod based landscape work.

Cheers,
Bernard

alainbriot

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2015, 08:43:32 pm »

I enjoyed the review and learned a lot from it. I know those are not easy to do and I prefer to focus on what I am learning from it than try and find flaws, which, inevitably, always seem to creep up somehow.

Thank you Michael!
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2015, 08:58:35 pm »

True, a complete redesign resulting in a much better alpha camera that generates an incremental change in the overall enveloppe of what 35mm cameras can do.

It will be a game changer for, for example, canyon photography and a mere "what's the excitment about" for many other applications, such as tripod based landscape work.

Cheers,
Bernard
Well even for a tripod only shooter it brings a lot to the table. It's nothing unique but can you imagine having the quality of a D8xx Nikon and a flip screen! :)
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GABarber

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2015, 09:04:04 pm »

One comment about Michael's review that I felt was left out, was that he failed to point out pattern noise as a special characteristic which makes noise level much less tolerable and correctable.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2015, 09:18:51 pm »

Well even for a tripod only shooter it brings a lot to the table. It's nothing unique but can you imagine having the quality of a D8xx Nikon and a flip screen! :)

I personally vastly prefer the ability to have a cleaner ISO64 over a flip screen, but the main point of my post was, as I am sure you have understood, that speaking of the a7rII as an overall game changer doesn't make sense. I will change the game for some photographers, but it probably won't for a majority.

It doesn't mean that the a7rII isn't a very nice camera.

Cheers,
Bernard

Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2015, 09:45:28 pm »

And I'm gonna reiterate my view that the combined features of a mirrorless, on sensor focusing, ibis, small, adaptable camera changes the game for the big boys. They can not rest on their laurels  much longer. One upping the other and incremental updates will not work.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2015, 01:52:56 am »

Hi,

Some interesting aspects. Just to say, I am pretty sure sensor based focusing, manual or auto, is needed for world class lenses at large apertures. Just to mention, Sony A7 series II is the only way to get an image stabilised full frame camera with the Otuses. Than, there is of course internal recording to 4K.

So, yes, it is a game changer.

Obviously, those features don't make say 5DSR or D810 obsolete, those are fine cameras of their own. But, there are a lot of thing the A7 marks II can do that those cameras can not. Yeah, there are many things 5DSR and D810 can do that the A7 marks II can not. Like continous AF with long lenses.

I would also say that Sony does not have the set of native lenses it needs.

Best regards
Erik

And I'm gonna reiterate my view that the combined features of a mirrorless, on sensor focusing, ibis, small, adaptable camera changes the game for the big boys. They can not rest on their laurels  much longer. One upping the other and incremental updates will not work.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2015, 01:55:45 am »

A flip screen is awfully useful if you are shooting close to the ground.

Best regards
Erik

I personally vastly prefer the ability to have a cleaner ISO64 over a flip screen, but the main point of my post was, as I am sure you have understood, that speaking of the a7rII as an overall game changer doesn't make sense. I will change the game for some photographers, but it probably won't for a majority.

It doesn't mean that the a7rII isn't a very nice camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Erik Kaffehr
 

michael

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2015, 02:29:12 am »

Here's a real world example from a shoot yesterday in Florence.

Posted for fun with no implications. I just thought it might be worthwhile to remember why it is that we fuss over technical arcana.

Sony A7R II with 16-35mm f/4 @ ISO 100







Shadows opened about 4 stops. There was a lot more, but I wanted to retain the mystery.

I also tried a bracket, but an HDR version just didn't look as honest.



Michael
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Michael Tapes Sony review
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2015, 03:52:38 am »

One comment about Michael's review that I felt was left out, was that he failed to point out pattern noise as a special characteristic which makes noise level much less tolerable and correctable.

Hi,

The issue of noise is a subject with quite a few aspects to address, on its own. Of course it helps tremendously if the sensor array itself is well behaved with regards to pattern noise, but part of that can/should be addressed by the Raw converter. It would be interesting to compare against the performance of the Camera manufacturer's own Raw conversion solution, afterall they could use proprietary/calibration data without having to reverse engineer that from the file's Metadata, and other (commercial) solutions.

When pushing the barely exposed shadows of underexposed images, one basically gets to deal with read-noise patterns (often non-random), sensor calibration patterns (usually non-random in linear gamma), Photon shot-noise (Poisson random distribution), and read-noise (Gaussian random distribution). The non-random parts can usually be addressed successfully by software without affecting image detail (e.g. (master) dark frame subtraction). The random parts require a trade-off between detail (photons are 'noisy') and truly random noise which could be reduced by filtering based on absence of dominant spatial frequencies, a statistical approach.

All that noise makes it also much harder to demosaic the (Bayer) CFA pattern into consistent color. That's why the shadows go Red Magenta-ish when noise starts to dominate. BTW, that's something a proper Noise reduction software (e.g. Topaz Denoise) can deal with, but it requires some image specific guidance if we want to avoid the overall desaturation that I see in e.g. Lightroom noise reduction.

These software corrections/improvements can be processing intensive and take quite some time to perform due to the vast amount of calculations needed, but they can be very effective. We can learn a lot from the people who (by definition) have to routinely work on photon starved images, astronomers. Proper dark frame subtraction would already solve the biggest problems, but requires a kind of per camera database of images to synthesize ''Master Darkframes" at various exposure times and ISOs, and maybe temperature. A Rawconverter like RawTherapee already offers a basic approach that can average multiple darkframes into a more robust master darkframe for subtraction in linear gamma space.

So that would involve a huge amount of work on its own to properly address in a camera comparison. People like Jim Kasson and Jack Hogan (e.g. e.g. here) already put a lot of effort in analyzing the noise behavior of several cameras, including the A7R II (e.g. here). And it turns out to be a bit of a can of worms at times.

Again, it already helps a lot if the camera/sensor behaves well in the noise department, but when we start using photon starved images, all cameras can need varying amounts of help. It would be easier (if practical) to bracket, and preferably use more photons to begin with (lower ISO, ETTR, stacking), etc.).

Nothing beats a properly exposed shot, so photographers should not grow lazy and just depend on their cameras to solve things (and then blame the camera). An image requires photons, it's up to the photographer to provide as many of them (in the right places) as he can, given the circumstances and shooting conditions.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:57:34 am by BartvanderWolf »
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